Business Jet Experience....
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Business Jet Experience....
Hi all,
Currently applying for jobs with business jet operators and have had a few replies saying Im not suitable due to not having business jet experience. Now I understand there is a greater customer service side etc to biz jet flying vs airline flying but if someone has a few thousand hours on type but having flow the type in an airline does that really make them unsuitable? is it not determined if they have the right prsonality for the job in a job interview?
If biz jet experience is essential to get on the biz jet ladder how did all you guys and girls get your first biz jet job?
Currently applying for jobs with business jet operators and have had a few replies saying Im not suitable due to not having business jet experience. Now I understand there is a greater customer service side etc to biz jet flying vs airline flying but if someone has a few thousand hours on type but having flow the type in an airline does that really make them unsuitable? is it not determined if they have the right prsonality for the job in a job interview?
If biz jet experience is essential to get on the biz jet ladder how did all you guys and girls get your first biz jet job?
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Loads of operators, especially on the heavier iron will not hire airline jockeys. You stating that it is "only" a difference in customer service tells me that the companies you are applying at have made the right decision.
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If biz jet experience is essential to get on the biz jet ladder how did all you guys and girls get your first biz jet job?
You really should call back the companies that refused your application and ask for the reason. Maybe you can convince the person on the telephone that you are different from all the other airline pilots and get invited for an interview. Talking to someone in person (who knows someone who knows someone else who has flown with you sometime) is the way 90 percent of business aviators get their job! The application letter is usually submitted as a formality after everything else has been agreed upon.
I myself have never been to the airlines and have flown in business aviation right from the start (with some express freight in between) and therefore had the chance to "network" with enough people in that sector.
Last edited by what next; 30th Jul 2012 at 21:09.
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if someone has a few thousand hours on type but having flow the type in an airline does that really make them unsuitable?
Long time airline Captains are accustomed to the concept that they are the boss. The concept that the boss is actually sitting in the cabin, and that the pilot's job is to meet his requirements, within the bounds of legality; often doesn't sit well with them.
If biz jet experience is essential to get on the biz jet ladder how did all you guys and girls get your first biz jet job?
Its like it was every time when there was a job-shortage: you' re not suitable...for whatever reason. When there is a (usually very shortlived) pilot shortage anybody who isn´t careful will be shanghaied...
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Hmmm... I´ve been told that my biz jet pilot time isn`t worth anything when I applied to an airline. Surely 'airliners' are born with airline time?
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Hmm, tough crowd today.
Lets start with a reasonable foundation most of us can agree with.
The diversity of our collective experiences is our strength.
The best flight departments have people with a wide range of backgrounds andthey welcome input from everyone. When it comes to hiring someone it takes abig person to check their attitudes and insecurities when considering a pilotapplicant who has achieved something they haven't. The business aviationcommunity has enjoyed great benefits from integrating airline cultures into ouroperations.
At the same time I understand, all too well, the hesitation that members ofour community have toward airline pilots who bring their attitudes and expectationsinto our flight departments. Some of us have worked both sides of that fence. "What Next" is right about thedifferences in workloads and the commitment necessary to do this job well. We simply can't afford the deadweight of a team mate who cloaks laziness behind the thin veil of superiority.
There is another element that has distinguished business aviation crews fromstereotypical airline crews in the past decade; we still like aviation and weprefer to share our cockpits with others who are happy to be there as well.Where is the love? Sadly, our airline brothers have earned a reputation forendlessly complaining about the deterioration of their career expectations andentitlements. The consequence of this reputation is that excellent airlinepilots, as I'm sure you are N747EX, are scrutinized very carefully by those ofus who hope to keep our happy bubble afloat. Still other flight departments,like the ones you've applied with, may not even bother giving you a chance.
Bottom line, consider the above and have a long look in the mirror. Ifyou're genuinely up for the challenge of being the guy we all hope you are thanwelcome to our little piece of the industry! Be relentless about finding a jobwith someone who recognizes everything you have to offer.
Best of luck to you and I hope you'll let us all know how it turns out.
Lets start with a reasonable foundation most of us can agree with.
The diversity of our collective experiences is our strength.
The best flight departments have people with a wide range of backgrounds andthey welcome input from everyone. When it comes to hiring someone it takes abig person to check their attitudes and insecurities when considering a pilotapplicant who has achieved something they haven't. The business aviationcommunity has enjoyed great benefits from integrating airline cultures into ouroperations.
At the same time I understand, all too well, the hesitation that members ofour community have toward airline pilots who bring their attitudes and expectationsinto our flight departments. Some of us have worked both sides of that fence. "What Next" is right about thedifferences in workloads and the commitment necessary to do this job well. We simply can't afford the deadweight of a team mate who cloaks laziness behind the thin veil of superiority.
There is another element that has distinguished business aviation crews fromstereotypical airline crews in the past decade; we still like aviation and weprefer to share our cockpits with others who are happy to be there as well.Where is the love? Sadly, our airline brothers have earned a reputation forendlessly complaining about the deterioration of their career expectations andentitlements. The consequence of this reputation is that excellent airlinepilots, as I'm sure you are N747EX, are scrutinized very carefully by those ofus who hope to keep our happy bubble afloat. Still other flight departments,like the ones you've applied with, may not even bother giving you a chance.
Bottom line, consider the above and have a long look in the mirror. Ifyou're genuinely up for the challenge of being the guy we all hope you are thanwelcome to our little piece of the industry! Be relentless about finding a jobwith someone who recognizes everything you have to offer.
Best of luck to you and I hope you'll let us all know how it turns out.
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Having worked airline and corporate, I can give you a couple of pointers.
- The current jobs market is making it tough for everyone to find new contracts, including experienced corporate pilots, so your starting point is difficult. Move back one square.
- Most jobs, especially at senior levels, come through networking- corporate aviation is most definitely one of those. Since you seem to have no contacts, move another square back.
- Corporate flight departments range tremendously in their requirements and professionalism, so it is impossible to characterize all of the skills needed to hold a job with any particular one and therefore impossible to say whether you would or would not succeed there. However, there are five qualities that are universally required in the corporate world:
1. Solid flying skills (for the greater hand flying)
2. Airmanship (for the diversity of flying)
3. Integrity/Intelligence (to divert rather than proceed when necessary which keeps you and your clients alive and legal to fly another day, to cover the schedule for a colleague if required and able etc)
4. Sociability (to be on the road with someone for 20 days plus)
5. Diplomacy and Bearing (to command sufficient respect and authority to explain to Billionaire X with ego delta why you are diverting rather than proceeding and not getting fired, to resolve SOP conflicts with colleagues, negotiating permit release from handlers, calming irate passengers, settling down overly emotional flight attendants etc, etc ad nauseum).
Without possessing those qualities in spades, an applicant is a liability and what I can say has been said by others, which is that many airline guys are unwilling/unable to work much harder (the above) than they did previously and that is usually the deal breaker.
From that stems resentment for someone who has potentially tied up the recruitment and training process (which will have often involved colleagues providing additional efforts to cover scheduling) only not to perform "on the line". If that guy then leaves, well...you can imagine. Move another square back for being fresh from the airlines.
- My final point is a warning. If you have been flying an "airliner" type, then it`s more likely you will be flying in a standardized, professional environment (since many of your colleagues may well have come from there and the training is all A or B based), but be aware; there are many very poorly managed, very poorly operated companies out there and the problems and pressures associated with them are legion.
In my opinion there are, at most, half a dozen major, international corporate operators whose standards of conduct and care you might be happy with. The rest are, frankly, appalling by most measures. Trying to find a quality, small operator is an exercise in sieving for gold.
I would say that the average client keeps their jet for 1-3 years for smaller airframes and 5-7 for the larger. Larger airframes can mean wealthier, more stable clients which means greater job stability, but otherwise most corporate guys can expect fairly regular job turnover.
For my part, when I am without a contract with a major player or a quality operation, I sit it out. I leave busting time and duty regs, chasing up open invoices and especially forging paperwork to others and their ignorant/less discerning clients. Many corporate operations (and a few airlines too!) could be shut down if real thought and genuine scrutiny were ever applied by their customers or the authorities.
Trying to get the right job with a good company is tough. My appraisal of the sector is blunt but honest, so if you do get an offer at some point and you are leaving something stable behind, consider very carefully whether this is even a board game you want to play. For many airline guys, or just those who are professionally minded, it is fraught with challenges.
- The current jobs market is making it tough for everyone to find new contracts, including experienced corporate pilots, so your starting point is difficult. Move back one square.
- Most jobs, especially at senior levels, come through networking- corporate aviation is most definitely one of those. Since you seem to have no contacts, move another square back.
- Corporate flight departments range tremendously in their requirements and professionalism, so it is impossible to characterize all of the skills needed to hold a job with any particular one and therefore impossible to say whether you would or would not succeed there. However, there are five qualities that are universally required in the corporate world:
1. Solid flying skills (for the greater hand flying)
2. Airmanship (for the diversity of flying)
3. Integrity/Intelligence (to divert rather than proceed when necessary which keeps you and your clients alive and legal to fly another day, to cover the schedule for a colleague if required and able etc)
4. Sociability (to be on the road with someone for 20 days plus)
5. Diplomacy and Bearing (to command sufficient respect and authority to explain to Billionaire X with ego delta why you are diverting rather than proceeding and not getting fired, to resolve SOP conflicts with colleagues, negotiating permit release from handlers, calming irate passengers, settling down overly emotional flight attendants etc, etc ad nauseum).
Without possessing those qualities in spades, an applicant is a liability and what I can say has been said by others, which is that many airline guys are unwilling/unable to work much harder (the above) than they did previously and that is usually the deal breaker.
From that stems resentment for someone who has potentially tied up the recruitment and training process (which will have often involved colleagues providing additional efforts to cover scheduling) only not to perform "on the line". If that guy then leaves, well...you can imagine. Move another square back for being fresh from the airlines.
- My final point is a warning. If you have been flying an "airliner" type, then it`s more likely you will be flying in a standardized, professional environment (since many of your colleagues may well have come from there and the training is all A or B based), but be aware; there are many very poorly managed, very poorly operated companies out there and the problems and pressures associated with them are legion.
In my opinion there are, at most, half a dozen major, international corporate operators whose standards of conduct and care you might be happy with. The rest are, frankly, appalling by most measures. Trying to find a quality, small operator is an exercise in sieving for gold.
I would say that the average client keeps their jet for 1-3 years for smaller airframes and 5-7 for the larger. Larger airframes can mean wealthier, more stable clients which means greater job stability, but otherwise most corporate guys can expect fairly regular job turnover.
For my part, when I am without a contract with a major player or a quality operation, I sit it out. I leave busting time and duty regs, chasing up open invoices and especially forging paperwork to others and their ignorant/less discerning clients. Many corporate operations (and a few airlines too!) could be shut down if real thought and genuine scrutiny were ever applied by their customers or the authorities.
Trying to get the right job with a good company is tough. My appraisal of the sector is blunt but honest, so if you do get an offer at some point and you are leaving something stable behind, consider very carefully whether this is even a board game you want to play. For many airline guys, or just those who are professionally minded, it is fraught with challenges.
Last edited by Globalstream; 31st Jul 2012 at 10:11.
flow the type in an airline does that really make them unsuitable?
But there again,
organising everything yourself off homebase (hotel, transportation, catering - don't let the handling agents rip you off in the process)
Mutt
Last edited by mutt; 31st Jul 2012 at 10:40.
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1st timer I ever disagree with MUTT
There are a very few operations that fit in with Mutts definition.
The majority are small operations that would fall apart if the normal airline operational rules were actually applied.
In my operation, either current or past, the rules are there to be broken, or at least BENT, as the totally private gigs, are there for the benefit of the owner, and only the owner.
Standing by for incoming. Glf
The majority are small operations that would fall apart if the normal airline operational rules were actually applied.
In my operation, either current or past, the rules are there to be broken, or at least BENT, as the totally private gigs, are there for the benefit of the owner, and only the owner.
Standing by for incoming. Glf
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One other point for those less skeptical ehem, I mean less experienced in the corporate world.
Regrettably, there are a significant number of operations in our sector (some quite large) whose underlying business plans are so poorly conceived, their raison d čtres so flimsy and their competences so weak, that you will, new Captain, be expected to compensate.
Before you find yourself caught up in that situation, beware of the following terms in any corporate job advertisement-
"Relocation Required"
"Immediate Availability Required"
"Team Player"
"Flexible"
"Type Rating Required"*
Possible translations in the words of our imaginary operator:
"Relocation Required"- "We want a local man to be on the leash. Otherwise, when we want you to come in for the tenth time in as many months, you`ve also got the excuse of physical distance to back up your claim of "scheduled time off"
"Immediate Availability Required" - "Our perspicacity, crew planning and t & c s are so poor, we`ve not been able to attract one pilot amongst the thousands who are currently seeking work and we couldn`t imagine Humphrey was so upset with that eighth, two week extension- good riddens he was a lazy dog anyway- next!"
"Team Player"- Ah, the old standby. Where do I begin? "Well what are you going to do? Cancel the flight to Shanghai just because there`s no tech log, no Jeppview and the Jepps are six months out of date!" or "So we`re two weeks late with your 30 day invoice, but we need you tomorrow- there`s no one else!". "well, you`re just not a team player..."
"Flexible" (possibly my favourite euphemism) "When we made the proposal to the client we never explained 600 hours/yr would need four crew and training, illness and vacation, plus we`re skimming a little off the top- so you and Derek can fill in the rest." or "You mean the 550 doesn`t actually hold 550 passengers? But we told the client ________ (fill in blank)"
Type Rating Required- Actually, there are legitimate reasons for this one, but often there are not. In my opinion, a quality operation will hire character and experience, not a type rating unless there are strong reasons to do otherwise, such as a start up or for a lead position. Focussing on type ratings (especially for FOs) is prioritizing small, short term savings (relatively) over proper investment in the foundations of the operation.
If you see all five of those terms in the same advertisement, run. Run and don`t stop running. Good Luck!
Regrettably, there are a significant number of operations in our sector (some quite large) whose underlying business plans are so poorly conceived, their raison d čtres so flimsy and their competences so weak, that you will, new Captain, be expected to compensate.
Before you find yourself caught up in that situation, beware of the following terms in any corporate job advertisement-
"Relocation Required"
"Immediate Availability Required"
"Team Player"
"Flexible"
"Type Rating Required"*
Possible translations in the words of our imaginary operator:
"Relocation Required"- "We want a local man to be on the leash. Otherwise, when we want you to come in for the tenth time in as many months, you`ve also got the excuse of physical distance to back up your claim of "scheduled time off"
"Immediate Availability Required" - "Our perspicacity, crew planning and t & c s are so poor, we`ve not been able to attract one pilot amongst the thousands who are currently seeking work and we couldn`t imagine Humphrey was so upset with that eighth, two week extension- good riddens he was a lazy dog anyway- next!"
"Team Player"- Ah, the old standby. Where do I begin? "Well what are you going to do? Cancel the flight to Shanghai just because there`s no tech log, no Jeppview and the Jepps are six months out of date!" or "So we`re two weeks late with your 30 day invoice, but we need you tomorrow- there`s no one else!". "well, you`re just not a team player..."
"Flexible" (possibly my favourite euphemism) "When we made the proposal to the client we never explained 600 hours/yr would need four crew and training, illness and vacation, plus we`re skimming a little off the top- so you and Derek can fill in the rest." or "You mean the 550 doesn`t actually hold 550 passengers? But we told the client ________ (fill in blank)"
Type Rating Required- Actually, there are legitimate reasons for this one, but often there are not. In my opinion, a quality operation will hire character and experience, not a type rating unless there are strong reasons to do otherwise, such as a start up or for a lead position. Focussing on type ratings (especially for FOs) is prioritizing small, short term savings (relatively) over proper investment in the foundations of the operation.
If you see all five of those terms in the same advertisement, run. Run and don`t stop running. Good Luck!
Last edited by Globalstream; 31st Jul 2012 at 12:53.
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Globalstream
You are absolutely correct with every statement you have made
The so called big corporate players are all as bad as each other, the now common practice of profiteering from crew salaries even though the owner is paying the going rate to the management company is my biggest complaint about this industry, and they all do it
Then the FTL issue and days off, well where do you start with that one, someday the CAA will wake up and really see what is happening with those fictitious records
You are absolutely correct with every statement you have made
The so called big corporate players are all as bad as each other, the now common practice of profiteering from crew salaries even though the owner is paying the going rate to the management company is my biggest complaint about this industry, and they all do it
Then the FTL issue and days off, well where do you start with that one, someday the CAA will wake up and really see what is happening with those fictitious records
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How many business jet jobs are there where an airline guy has thousands of hours on the same type?
In my operation, either current or past, the rules are there to be broken, or at least BENT, as the totally private gigs, are there for the benefit of the owner, and only the owner.
would fall apart if the normal airline operational rules were actually applied.
Mutt
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Quote:
that includes weighing every single item of passenger and crew baggage
that includes weighing every single item of passenger and crew baggage
Operators (and crews) who bust ops laws are only able to do so confidently because they are not reconciling the laws of averages with their generally lower utilization. Especially, they are failing to asses the risk:reward ratio in their favour.
The bottom line is if you fly often enough while "bending" the law, you will be caught and the risks (violation or an accident) vastly outweigh the rewards.
Let's be clear, I'm not talking about flying to minimums, or flying to duty limits, or using discretion when it is irreproachable. I'm talking about overloading and fraudulently adjusting the paperwork. I'm talking about flying exhausted, without minimum rest and then fraudulently adjusting the paperwork to reflect some thing else. There is no legal differentiation between "fudging" and "defrauding".
There has been a subtle change in the law over the past few years, where it now assigns criminal culpability to those found guilty of violating civil code. I don't know about you, but I have never flown for anyone worth risking my life or means of livlihood.
Sorry for the thread drift.
Last edited by Globalstream; 31st Jul 2012 at 19:22.
