Hotspare
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: earth
Age: 43
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hotspare
companies now have this policy of putting crews on so called hotspare at airports becuase they think that improves flexibility. I would argue they misjudge the negative impact on crew morale this creates. Let me give some examples, I have personally met a few crews that have chosen to tech airplanes so that they would be spared this hotspare duty, the same crews said that if there was no risk of Hotspare they would not have bothered with these relativly minor issues.
Also, because of the hotspare duties assigned crews delibaratly choose not to reduce rest, extend duties and also refuse other favors they might otherwise do to help their company.
Surely the negative impact of hotspare is starting to be greater then the positives????
Also, because of the hotspare duties assigned crews delibaratly choose not to reduce rest, extend duties and also refuse other favors they might otherwise do to help their company.
Surely the negative impact of hotspare is starting to be greater then the positives????
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Far away from LA
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crews doing such a thing are genuine idiots. They never worked in charter before, that is for sure.
The only company i know , using hotspare on a routine basis is NJE. It does increase flexibility, since if you are on standby at the hotel or at base, you are 2h45 from take-off; on hotspare theoritically 30 minutes...amen.
Either the plane is MEL able and you can fly ( captain decision to accept the MEL) or it is not, and you should not fly. Minor issues are therefore non-existent as such. Hotspare has nothing to do in between.
The attitude of crews regarding scheduling is the same wargame, since a third party is ruling your life. They want the most of your time vs salary; and you want to maximise your time off....not really the same focus.
If scheduling departments were fair entities, this would be known for sure; however, like i wrote above these 2 worlds cannot meet; If one can't cope with a 12 hours hotspare while working for a charter operation, he should change job/company.
The only company i know , using hotspare on a routine basis is NJE. It does increase flexibility, since if you are on standby at the hotel or at base, you are 2h45 from take-off; on hotspare theoritically 30 minutes...amen.
Either the plane is MEL able and you can fly ( captain decision to accept the MEL) or it is not, and you should not fly. Minor issues are therefore non-existent as such. Hotspare has nothing to do in between.
The attitude of crews regarding scheduling is the same wargame, since a third party is ruling your life. They want the most of your time vs salary; and you want to maximise your time off....not really the same focus.
If scheduling departments were fair entities, this would be known for sure; however, like i wrote above these 2 worlds cannot meet; If one can't cope with a 12 hours hotspare while working for a charter operation, he should change job/company.
How is your countries regulation about OPS 1.1125 point 1.3? Over here "hotspare" or airport standby counts in full into the flight duty period so that 12 hours of that would reduce any following FDP to 1 hour, not really useful.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: at the whim of people I've never met
Age: 46
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take it up with your union / ops department if you are so against it.
It can be tiring but has a clear business case in my opinion - and we are paid to work after all.
It can be tiring but has a clear business case in my opinion - and we are paid to work after all.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: At Home
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its really quite simple.
The company pay me to do several duties including hotspare. I take their money and do those duties, provided it is safe and legal to do so. Anything else is unprofessional, imho.
The company pay me to do several duties including hotspare. I take their money and do those duties, provided it is safe and legal to do so. Anything else is unprofessional, imho.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: It wasn't me, I wasn't there, wrong country ;-)
Age: 79
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pallelalle
This is an honest question. What do you want from your charter Pilot Operation ? Do you expect a full "28 day in advance fixed roster" ? If so you'll find that an Airport STBY is integral to the plan. If you don't like airport standbys, why not go work for a scheduled flag carrier (they have airport STBYs as well), don't whinge on here where so many hard, very hard working, charter/BIZAV/Corporate crew are posting !
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Far away from LA
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
as NJE is concerned, hotspare is fully counted as duty and cannot exceed 12 hours, therefore entitled of 2 crew meals. as the roster is concerned it is cast in concrete on the 15th for the following 2 months...
People are still complaining ?...F..O..
People are still complaining ?...F..O..
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread is so surreal I wonder if it is a wind-up? But I'll put my 2p worth in and say that, like "On Standby", if I'm being paid to fly an aircraft, but Ops doesn't have a trip yet, but they are trying hard to shake one out of the tree, then I will happily sit in the crew room in my uniform reading the newspaper.
That's why they have nice chairs, free coffee, magazines and TV sets in there. You can even use the time to catch up on paperwork. And, if you are lucky, you'll get to go flying, make some flight pay, and the company makes some profits. What's not to like?
And yes, it counts as duty time, so after you've been there 6 hours the possible jobs that Ops can send you on start to narrow a bit, but in todays thin economy and competitive environment, every little helps.
I thought this was normal - am I so out of touch?
That's why they have nice chairs, free coffee, magazines and TV sets in there. You can even use the time to catch up on paperwork. And, if you are lucky, you'll get to go flying, make some flight pay, and the company makes some profits. What's not to like?
And yes, it counts as duty time, so after you've been there 6 hours the possible jobs that Ops can send you on start to narrow a bit, but in todays thin economy and competitive environment, every little helps.
I thought this was normal - am I so out of touch?
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with what many others have said, if the scheduling dept. wants to use up my duty hours by being more 'flexible' I will happily oblige as has been said, we are being paid, so whats the difference, flying or sitting in the FBO.
Now, I do have one point I would like to raise regarding the hotspare, but CL300 thought it too sensitive to debate in public.
Tired of it, if its legal and fact, why shouldnt we debate it, its hardly valuable inside information, is it?
Now, I do have one point I would like to raise regarding the hotspare, but CL300 thought it too sensitive to debate in public.
Tired of it, if its legal and fact, why shouldnt we debate it, its hardly valuable inside information, is it?
Last edited by south coast; 6th Dec 2010 at 09:22.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with all the previous posts, only issue i would have is regarding the fact that having done the duty, it is not then included in calculations regarding subsequent duty periods, or taken into account WRT rolling totals i.e. airport SBY of 8 hours completed, duty assigned say 1 hour after finish (charter sold) and mysteriously you came on duty an hour before the flight (std. report) - now where did that 8 hour SBY go ?????
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Far away from LA
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well not with NJE... Every hour is counted from show time, if on hotspare status ( ie at he plane ready for launch) IF at the hotel then you are not 'HOT' you are on standby, then only 25% is counted towards duty.
Rest is calculated from previous/next duty , with a minimum of 11 hours for us ( slightly better than EU-ops recommandations for the time being!)
As for specific case, speak with your employer, and the reading of the FTL you are dependant with...
Rest is calculated from previous/next duty , with a minimum of 11 hours for us ( slightly better than EU-ops recommandations for the time being!)
As for specific case, speak with your employer, and the reading of the FTL you are dependant with...
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: shithole21
Age: 44
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont know how many crews are genuinly angry about doing this "hotspare" duty but if enough crews are starting to refuse reducing rest, extending duties and so on then that must incur extra costs to the company, assuming they would have done it otherwise. If for example a crew finishies to late to do the next days duty unless they reduce by say 15minutes (I think most would do this reduction under normal circumstances) then the company must sell off that flight to x amount of thousands in loss..?? or bring in another at x amount of thousands in extra costs. The crew is in their full right to refuse this reduction though so they cant really be blamed for any kind of wrongful behaviour, at least not legally, morally is another question.
Tech issues is another question, if crews "techs" airplanes that arent broken that must be a questionable action legally and totally wrong, I really hope (and think) noone is doing that. However, in most companies crews are many times asked to ferry airplanes to maintenace locations and put the defects in the book on arrival, this to save cost and down time on the aircraft. Again, if crews stops this and follows the book flat out that will incur extra costs to the company.
I read somewhere that an unhappy workforce produces at least 30% less then a happy one, this discussion must relate a bit to that I think??
Tech issues is another question, if crews "techs" airplanes that arent broken that must be a questionable action legally and totally wrong, I really hope (and think) noone is doing that. However, in most companies crews are many times asked to ferry airplanes to maintenace locations and put the defects in the book on arrival, this to save cost and down time on the aircraft. Again, if crews stops this and follows the book flat out that will incur extra costs to the company.
I read somewhere that an unhappy workforce produces at least 30% less then a happy one, this discussion must relate a bit to that I think??
Perhaps the original poster works for one of the outfits that will have you hanging around the airport all day, and if you do not fly, tell you it was a 'day off' downroute, or if a charter does come in after 8 hours sitting around claim the flight duty period begins 30 minutes before take off and ignores the previous 8 hours standby declaring it as 'rest' for FTL's.
The better operators do not do this, but I am aware some operators do, and the management response ' this is charter, everybody does it, if you do not like it, leave'
As long as the paperwork is correct......................
The better operators do not do this, but I am aware some operators do, and the management response ' this is charter, everybody does it, if you do not like it, leave'
As long as the paperwork is correct......................
