VLJs again

[No RYR for me]

I'm not being naive or complacent, but I don't think that customers are constantly hunting for the absolute cheapest deal.

Yes you are naive and complacent. When you can get a brand new CJ2+ or CJ3 at the same rate per hour as a Phanthom 100 you will understand that the business model is flawned... the CJ will take their business away! Specially in Germany!

[tuna hp]

I would have imagined VLJ's would come in cheaper due to aquisition cost, insurance, maintenance etc being less.

Thats the thing. They're a little cheaper, proportionate to their lesser capabilities, but VLJs aren't being sold by the thousands so that they can have some new economy of scale manufacturing them (as was the goal at Eclipse Aviation). A Phenom 100 might be $3.5M and a CJ3 might be $6.5M but the CJ3 will carry more passengers, fly higher and faster, and fly 700nm farther.

[tuna hp]

The key is to use the right tool for the right job.

Of course. If you can book enough hours of VLJ missions in your market then you will be successful operating a VLJ. They probably will steal a lot of business from the turboprop charters. But how much new business is going to come from people who reason, "hmm I always could have chartered a turboprop to do this mission and I never did, now for the same price I can do it in a VLJ but since the plane flies 50% faster I'm gonna do it".

Some new business I think, but not a revolutionary amount.

[No RYR for me]

That would be a Phenom 100

Nope it remains a Phanthom until Embraer clears the training delays and / or Jet Bird gets their funding Just pick the explenation you like

And may I rephrase the following:

"hmm I always could have chartered a turboprop to do this mission and I never did, now for the same price I can do it in a VLJ but since the plane flies 50% faster I'm gonna do it".

into "hmm I always could have chartered a CJ2 to do this mission and I never did, now for the same price I can do it in a VLJ but since the plane is flown by this new company I'm gonna do it".

[S.F.L.Y]

A VLJ flies 50% faster? The Avanti flies at 398 kts with a DOC 30-40 % lower than a CJ and allows you to use the lavatory standing and not within a 1.45m high cabin....
Seriously, what is the benefit of using a CJ on legs < 1000 Nm? What would be the benefit and market opportunity of VLJs compared to the Avanti? Look at the Avantair business model and see how VLJs are a ridiculous threat.

[BigNumber]

I had the opportunity to look round an AirGo Avanti in Lyon; chatting to the crew quickly revealed just how capable the machine is. They had both flown the CJ previously.

I wonder if there might be a slight 'Jet snob' factor amongst the client base. Objectively, IMO, it is a great aircaft if a little expensive to buy.

[BigNumber]

I have never seen a P180 at La Mole. Just wondering about the short field performance?

How many Pax could a P180 lift on the 'La Mole' to 'Luton' run.

Goodness knows that it can be challenging in a CJ when the owner brings his friends along with their bags ( at +30 degrees.)

[x933]

I know of someone 18 months ago who was offered a year old P180 and a Vintage Citation II with the usual refurb in 5 years. Paid more for vintage Citation II, hated it. Jet Snobbery rules OK...

[S.F.L.Y]

Clearly Embraer, Cessna and others did a lot of research into VLJ's and decided thet there was a market for them and sales would seem to indicate they are right.

Embraer & Cessna entered the segment as they thought they could afford it thanks to their diversified product ranges and experience. All other challengers went down (Grob, Eclipse etc.) and even Cessna is in a very serious situation as it didn't reduce its production rate.

Having few Mustangs & Phenoms flying is one thing, it doesn't mean it's gonna be a commercial success. Thinking that passengers are stupid enough to prefer a tiny mustang to an Avanti at the same rate just because it's a jet shows a very narrow minded commercial perception. Once again, compare Day Jet and Avantair and you'll see how the real world flies.

[BigNumber]

Anyone able to give an insight into performance with reference to my earlier La Mole question?

[S.F.L.Y]

Obviously if a business man is going to buy himself an aircraft he / she will look into things but a passenger booking a charter will choose the jet nearly every time.

It all depends on what you offer. It's clear that between a C90 and a CJ customers will choose the jet. Now let them compare cabins and speed of the Avanti and Mustang. I'm not sure that people would prefer to knee in front of the potty just for the opportunity to have a leak in a jet.

I have flown both jets and turbo props and heard the pax moaning about the propeller aircraft time and time again. I'm not saying it's right, just the way it is.

How many Avantis does Avantair operate? Do you know a single operation with such a fleet of CJs or VLJs? How do you explain it works that well? What would be the benefit of a VLJ in comparison to such operation?

[His dudeness]

Whats the point of taking a leak standing?

It just leads to stains.

Any pax sitting on the pot instead of standing is my 'friend'....

[lpokijuhyt]

I don't know, but a decent toilet is a nice thing to have in any aircraft. I once was flying a King Air and had a lady passenger take a crap in my flight bag and that was not an enjoyable experience for me, her, the other passengers, or my flight bag.

[A10Warthog]

[QUOTE] I once was flying a King Air and had a lady passenger take a crap in my flight bag and that was not an enjoyable experience for me, her, the other passengers, or my flight bag. /QUOTE]

hahaha.

I'd never use that flight bag again !

At least the King Air I'm flying have toilet in the back.

[S.F.L.Y]

PS: I agree with you, the Avanti is a great aircraft but what I am talking about is passenger (and even owner) perception.

You still didn't elaborate on Avantair. Isn't it about passenger perception? How come this operation is such a success with dozens of aircrafts and happy pax while I can't see anything competing with CJs, Mustangs and other Eclipse?

[No RYR for me]

Know your onions Suitcase...

Jetbird for example have ordered 100 Embraer Phenom VLJ's.

Yes and so did JetRepublic with 100s of Lear60s... does that make it a good airplane.. So did DayJet that ordered millions (well almost ) of Eclipses.. Does that make Eclipse and or Dayjet great companies???

No, it does not: a company and an airplane are only succesfull in the longer run. Jetbird is start up with financing issues with a new business model and a new relative unproven aircraft. Avantair on the other hand:

Avantair, Inc. Reports Record Gains in Flight Time Cards Sold and Flight Hours Flown
CLEARWATER, Fla. – October 27, 2009 -- Avantair, Inc. (OTCBB: AAIR), the sole North American provider of flight hour time cards and fractional shares in the Piaggio Avanti aircraft, today announced preliminary flight time card sales and flight hours flown for its fiscal first quarter ended September 30, 2009.

First Quarter Fiscal 2010 Sales Highlights

* Flight time cards sold for the three months ended September 30, 2009 increased 69% to 86 compared to 51 flight time cards sold during the fiscal fourth quarter ended June 30, 2009, and 219% from 27 for the fiscal first quarter ended September 30, 2008.
* Revenue-generating flight hours flown reached a new quarterly record, increasing 13% quarter-over-quarter to 9,356 hours compared to 8,277 hours for the fiscal fourth quarter ended June 30, 2009, and increasing 11% year-over-year compared to 8,393 for the fiscal first quarter ended September 30, 2008.

Steven Santo, founder and Chief Executive Officer of Avantair, said, “Our record quarterly performance is the result of several key factors: our enhanced sales and marketing initiatives as well as increasing customer awareness of the fuel efficiency of the Piaggio aircraft and the superior cost value of an Avantair program compared to the light-jet programs of our competitors. Our favored eco-friendly operations and low carbon emissions aircraft are also driving the growth and expansion of our business and awareness of the Avantair brand. While we are seeing improvement in the fractional share portion of our business, the main driver of revenue growth is the continued surge of interest in our flight time card programs.

“The outstanding numbers for our September quarter show that we are not only increasing our penetration of the existing market but also expanding our total market as new and referral customers realize the value of our product offerings,” Mr. Santo continued. “Our fleet expansion is well-timed in order to keep pace with the strong demand for our flight programs and we continue to build our presence in both existing and new geographical regions. In addition, the significant cost effectiveness of our aircraft has resulted in the expansion of our marketing targets to include a broader and more diverse audience. Widespread environmental concerns and the problems impacting commercial travel make our value proposition clear particularly with those businesses that are most concerned with responsible private transportation alternatives.”

Avantair recently announced the expansion of its fleet with the addition of four aircraft, three of which have already been received and one of which is expected to be added before the end of the calendar year. The Company’s improved capital structure following the closing of the final tranche of a financing for total gross proceeds of $10.4 million enabled this expansion. Avantair maintains world class FBO’s in Camarillo, California and Caldwell, New Jersey and its headquarters in Clearwater, Florida. These FBO’s allow the Company to support its operations and deliver premier services to Avantair’s customers while maintaining the highest levels of safety. The Company’s primary service area currently includes the Continental United States, international locations in Canada within 200 miles of the Continental US, and flights between seven select airports in the Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, Cabo San Lucas, La Paz and Puerto Vallarta.

Avantair will report financial results for the fiscal first quarter 2010 ended September 30, 2009 during the second week of November; details will be forthcoming.

[S.F.L.Y]

Never heard of them! How many aircraft do they have?

Piaggio sales have been poor so they cant have that many and the aircraft has been available for a long time.

Jetbird for example have ordered 100 Embraer Phenom VLJ's.

You could have searched on google before posting that. Avantair operates over 50 Avantis with 53 more on order. Turboprop fractional market is currently increasing by 21% while light jets are suffering from the biggest losses. What are VLJs supposed to bring on the market? Their business model is on ranges for which turboprop engines have been specifically designed. Jets are not made for short legs, they are optimized for long cruises in high and cold air.

So far turboprops suffered from limited speeds and cabin noise. Now that the Avanti flies at 400kts with a quiet cabin, how VLJs are supposed to be advantageous on short legs?

[plugster]

Prop equals old
Jet equals new and shiny - and sexy.
Thats the general perception I gathered.

[drogue chute]

Plugster, you're absolutely right there... It's an unfair misconception that many are guilty of - myself included.
I remember standing on the ramp in Milan waiting for the fuel truck to turn up and noticed an Avanti parked quite close to us. It was the first one I'd ever seen at close quarters, so I wandered up and started looking around it. I was truly impressed with it - it looked like it belonged in Star Wars. I remembered dreaming of machines like this when I was a kid. The under carriage looked like it was borrowed from an F16, and those canards... I've ALWAYS wanted to fly something with canards!
It was a thing of beauty.

Then the fuel truck turned up and I went back to my CJ2 and thought "well, at least THIS one has JET engines!"

Now I'll get my coat and leave...

[lpokijuhyt]

I couldn't agree more with the post about the turboprop being more efficient than the VLJ (especially in regards to the routes/destinations proposed by certain VLJ Air Taxi operators.

The sad fact is that one is a JET and the other has these things call propellers. As pilots, we can analyze the pros and cons and offer a sensible argument in favour of the Avanti. This is easy. We can tell the buyer, "OK the Avanti's cost per hour is going to be a bit less, it's more fuel efficient and you will be doing your part to protect the climate since the Avant's emissions are less. We could go on and on.

The people who fly in these jets usually place a certain emphasis "on looking good." Looking good = jet. The word "Private Jet" also holds a certain mytique that the words, "Private Turbo-Prop" dont quite have.

Hey, if it was me....then hell yeah, I would go with the Avanti, but these people feel the need to be in the "jet". I'm no economist but I think the word is "intrinsic value". The jet has this the TP does not.

Would I also buy a Toyota Prius before a Hummer H2? Of course. They are more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly. But I can almost guarentee that the guy who rolls up to the airport to get in his private jet is not arriving in a Toyota Prius.