Is this legal without AOC?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Socialist Republic of Europe
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G-SPOTs
You are (again) missing the point. I was pointing out to Express that I am pretty sure that landing a Citation V in Fairoaks would not be legal on an AOC, so assuming the owner allowed the approach. That answers Express's point in the negative. The quality of the pilot is completely irrelevant to that argument. What is relevant is the performance charts for the aircraft, and the comparison between those unfactored figures and the same with the public-transport safety factors applied.
Like the pilot of that aircraft I have landed on company business where I would not be allowed to land for a PT flight. The people I work for know the risks, and know me. They accept the increased risk, but as I said to Express they do not always demand public-transport safety factors.
You are (again) missing the point. I was pointing out to Express that I am pretty sure that landing a Citation V in Fairoaks would not be legal on an AOC, so assuming the owner allowed the approach. That answers Express's point in the negative. The quality of the pilot is completely irrelevant to that argument. What is relevant is the performance charts for the aircraft, and the comparison between those unfactored figures and the same with the public-transport safety factors applied.
Like the pilot of that aircraft I have landed on company business where I would not be allowed to land for a PT flight. The people I work for know the risks, and know me. They accept the increased risk, but as I said to Express they do not always demand public-transport safety factors.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi
I believe there used to be two Citation 2s based at Fairoaks and they were run under an AOC ?
I flew into Fairoaks once in a Bravo as a co pilot before I started flying as a Captain.
A Citation V is the best of all on short fields as it has the takeoff power and the Five wing was the slowest flying wing of the Citation Range.
Often typically Landing VREF was 100 kts and if light back to 95kts.
The Bravo had faster speeds.
Myself I get uncomfortable with anything below 1200 metres on a standard day temp.
Below that there is little room for any error.
Landing usually isnt a problem as long as you hit the numbers but takeoff is so temp dependant all you can do is to apply max thrust and wait for VR.
Hence the V which people are using as an example has bags of power to get to the low VR. It is the best for a place like Fairoaks.
Pace
I believe there used to be two Citation 2s based at Fairoaks and they were run under an AOC ?
I flew into Fairoaks once in a Bravo as a co pilot before I started flying as a Captain.
A Citation V is the best of all on short fields as it has the takeoff power and the Five wing was the slowest flying wing of the Citation Range.
Often typically Landing VREF was 100 kts and if light back to 95kts.
The Bravo had faster speeds.
Myself I get uncomfortable with anything below 1200 metres on a standard day temp.
Below that there is little room for any error.
Landing usually isnt a problem as long as you hit the numbers but takeoff is so temp dependant all you can do is to apply max thrust and wait for VR.
Hence the V which people are using as an example has bags of power to get to the low VR. It is the best for a place like Fairoaks.
Pace
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Location: Location:
Age: 54
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LMS
I did get and understand your point, I was just using your example to prove MY point about perceived AOC safety. Call it debate, irony whatever, in France they just say touche.
You go on about AOC factoring , I had to explain it to you in post 150.
No No No, the quality of the pilot is critical regardless of private or AOC, each AFM has the technique for achieving the figures therein. Just cos you have the 1.92 margin for the wet runway does not mean you should use it, in fact the factor is there to ensure that you get stopped with a percentage of runway left if required - not use it all up.
Even you and I can agree that the aircraft does not know its on a public transport flight!
You fairly obviously do not understand performance - have you done a JAR or CAA performance exam?
What I forgot to include about Fairoaks was the fact that the pilot of the citation landed half way down a 700m runway and expected to stop, it does not matter what rules you fly by either PT or PVT if you do this pax/pilots/plane will come into harms way.
If you land halfway down a runway you do not need to be statistician to figure out that an AOC safety factor of 1.67 is probably not going to help, which brings me back to given crew, given day, given aircraft. On that day it was not an AOC aircraft, on any other runway even when authorised it could have been a AOC flight
So if the aircraft was on an AOC, I was under the impression that all flights had to be treated as AOC even though the owner was on board and no money changed hands. Perhaps you have an understanding FOI or were you doing an illegal flight? Genuine question i'm not 100% sure about it. If you were referring to a private flight then why mention factoring at all. 
I did get and understand your point, I was just using your example to prove MY point about perceived AOC safety. Call it debate, irony whatever, in France they just say touche.
You go on about AOC factoring , I had to explain it to you in post 150.
The quality of the pilot is completely irrelevant to that argument. What is relevant is the performance charts for the aircraft, and the comparison between those unfactored figures and the same with the public-transport safety factors applied.
Even you and I can agree that the aircraft does not know its on a public transport flight!
You fairly obviously do not understand performance - have you done a JAR or CAA performance exam?
What I forgot to include about Fairoaks was the fact that the pilot of the citation landed half way down a 700m runway and expected to stop, it does not matter what rules you fly by either PT or PVT if you do this pax/pilots/plane will come into harms way.
If you land halfway down a runway you do not need to be statistician to figure out that an AOC safety factor of 1.67 is probably not going to help, which brings me back to given crew, given day, given aircraft. On that day it was not an AOC aircraft, on any other runway even when authorised it could have been a AOC flight
Like the pilot of that aircraft I have landed on company business where I would not be allowed to land for a PT flight. The people I work for know the risks, and know me. They accept the increased risk, but as I said to Express they do not always demand public-transport safety factors.
Last edited by G-SPOTs Lost; 20th Apr 2008 at 23:40.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I can see it from here.
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I honestly wonder, hypothetically, if the factoring for landing distances was removed for PT flights, ie book figures allowed, what percentage of AOC operators would choose to retain and apply the old figures, for safety, and let a competitor take the work. Food for thought?
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I can see it from here.
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you FNPL, that was my point. AOC operators work within the regulations because they have to, because self regulation in the face of competition would fail. That certainly does not mean that anything else is inherently dangerous. Safety is dictated by cost in all walks of life, in aviation 100% safety = not getting airborne, too expensive. I have worked in AOC operations and have been asked to do things that push the boundaries of legality and even cross it, good and bad everywhere. At the same time have had the pleasure to fly with guys, in non AOC ops, who amaze me with their application of self regulation and professionalism. I hope some of it rubbed off on me. But I would like to add, if I am approached to fly an aircraft that has been leased by an individual, and all is legal and above board, I will gladly accept, it is not illegal and there is nothing wrong with it, I earned the right when I achieved my ATPL at great expense. You could always change this, offer me a job with the right salary and conditions and you may have a convert.
