Experience with use of widebody airliners ?

[Lindberg]

Dear gentlemen, I was asked to investigate about experiences with the use of heavy stuff in business operation. I would appreciate if someone could share his/her experiences. Commercial & private use. - if there is commercial use anyway
Regards and thanks for your inputs

[chornedsnorkack]

if there is commercial use anyway

There is. Certainly Privatair has a 50 seat 767-300 which does not seem to fly scheduled like their BBJ or Maxjet and Silverjet 767-s, but operate charters. And Air Partner has a 106 seat 747-200 also for charter.

[AircraftOperations]

Do Air Partner own and operate the 747?

If yes, where is it based?

If no, who owns and operates it and from where?

[Lindberg]

Private Air and Co....

Are this companies operating under Part 135 or 121? Is it correct that EASA approves just 120 minutes of ETOPS for part 135 operators???

[chornedsnorkack]

Are this companies operating under Part 135 or 121?

EASA approves just 120 minutes of ETOPS for part 135 operators???

To begin with, EASA does not HAVE Part 121, nor part 135, nor part 91, nor Part 125. There are JAR-OPS parts with completely different numbers, and grouping of things.

[Lindberg]

ok, I dont want to mess with numbers

I am aware of the different organization of EASA.... But anyone knows the difference.... especialy in JAA terms the numbers are the same as in FAA. The question is: Is it true, that EASA doesn't grant air taxi companies ETOPS of more than 120 min. ? Even the aircraft would be able. And don't tell me, the company needs an approval - I know this. Just is there any EASA approved company with more than 120 min ETOPS NOT beeing an airline

[mutt]

Lindberg

I dont understand your initial question, there are many of us on here who work with VIP airliners, what are you trying to find out?

As for ETOPS, under FAR91, they dont need ETOPS approval.

Mutt

[Lindberg]

Hello Mutt,

seems you are one I am looking for. I want your experience operating airliners as business planes. What type are you suggesting? Even FAR 91 doesn't ask for ETOPS, what are the clients prefer: Twin or more engines? Also type or brand. What is more convenient for this kind of operation? How many crew do you use? Do you have technicians with you on every flight? Do you know anybody who is using airliners as Air taxi FAA 135?

Lots of questions, but I should evaluate the use of airliners in air taxi ops... But most things are the same as private use.
Thank you for help!

[chornedsnorkack]

under FAR91,

All widebodies exceed 2700 kg payload, so the applicable FAR should be Part 125.

what are the clients prefer: Twin or more engines

It is hard to find pairs of comparable planes. No plane is as big as 747 non-SP. And the ages are very different between, say, 747-SP and 777-300ER, so here are considerations other than the engine count.

In older generation, there are the choices of Tristar/DC10 or A300. In newer generation, there is choice of MD11, A340 or B777.

There are remarkably few B777 private jets, compared to, say, A340-200s.

[mutt]

Not charter aircraft, operated for owners, hence Part 91.

Mutt

[Lindberg]

type of plane and number of engines

Do the owners prefer 2 or more engines? Dispatch reliability and maintenance needs is a matter in this business. What are the major issues operating such a plane? Operational limitations - not technical limits?

Kind regards

[Lindberg]

other approach

What considerations to apply operating an airliner instead of Gulfstream, Global, Falcon,...

[BelArgUSA]

Top Class private airplanes

There are quite a few "ex-airliners" which are used as VIP-Executive airplanes.
I personally flew a few times, "free lance" in such types of airplanes.
xxx
One was a DC9-15... as co-pilot for a round trip USA-Mexico. If I recall the interior, it was suitable for some 20-30 passengers. Had a bedroom with a large bed. Actually old airplane, but nice and roomy compared to a Gulfstream. Price to buy one must be a fraction of fancy executive jets.
xxx
I flew a 720-022 (that is a short fuselage 707) as captain, for a week or so, was an airplane operated by the Las Vegas' casino "Caesar Palace" with the "Hollywood crowd" aboard, if I remember well, (we are talking of 1980) for a "Telethon". I recall Jerry Lewis, John Ritter, John Travolta, Cher, The Carpenters, among the passengers... Seating was some 50 seats. Went all over the USA.
xxx
Flew a 727-100 as captain, ex-MGM Grand Air airplane, for a 3 weeks-long European Tour of a rock group called "Fleetwood Mac"... interior was great, seating was about 40 passengers, we had extra tanks, non-stop from Gander to Shannon.
xxx
Delivered a 747-200F (in 2001) to the Royal Flight of the Sheik of Dubai, The Sheik has two 747SPs, but he needed an additional 747 Cargo to fly his Rolls-Royce around the globe (and his pricy race horses). I flew one trip with his crewmembers, to show the minute differences of the equipment. We followed the Sheik's SP, with his horses and car aboard the airplane, going from DXB to SYD, with a stop in SIN. Got to visit the interior of the SP, was top luxury in the forward cabin, cabin B was empty. with numerous oriental carpets on the floor (Arabs like to stretch on the floor, I guess, to socialize...) - The rear cabins had first class seats for cabin crew and guests`. Do not recall the passenger capacity but must have been near 100... How many wives, that, I do not know.
xxx
Acquaintance of mine, Clay Lacy, operates two 727-100s, based in VNY, with executive interior, seating around 40-50 pax, typical passengers are NBA teams, NHL teams, or rock groups. With the US elections campaign, I am certain they fly one or two of the candidates. They told me that the 727s are "just a little more expensive to charter" than the Gulfstream 3 and 4s they also operate, but remember, Gulfstreams only can carry 10-12 people. The certificate of operations is "FAR 125", for these 727s...
xxx

Happy contrails

[chornedsnorkack]

There are quite a few "ex-airliners" which are used as VIP-Executive airplanes.

Actually old airplane, but nice and roomy compared to a Gulfstream. Price to buy one must be a fraction of fancy executive jets.

There must be several factors into the price (and quality) of a private jet. An airliner MIGHT be an old worn-out passenger plane bought cheap and converted into a private jet. BUT you could have a brand new built A340 directly commissioned as a private jet and bought as such, which never has flown in airline service. (Do private individuals who buy jets straight from Boeing get Boeing customer number each?) Or you could have private airliner jets which are old by design and chronology, but which have been private jets for all the time and seen little use and little wear and tear - for example, quite some 747SP-s were made private jets pretty soon. Or private jets - yes, you can have a brand new fancy Gulfstream V (which costs slightly less than brand new Boeing 737-700 BJ, and definitely more than an old converted B737-200) - but Gulfstream II was produced back in 1960-s, so the older and more used frames might be cheap as well.

[Lindberg]

chornedsnorkack you have useful information too?

Sorry, I am looking for help not for 'smart comments'

Such as considerations flying to 'remote' airports with no infrastructure for airliners... time to get it in the air from a initial call.... worldwide maintenance experiences (in which areas Boeing or Airbus are better or not available)... low temperature environment,.....

[mutt]

I think that the first thing that you should realize is that most VIP LARGE AIRLINER operators dont have to make money, its the bosses toy.

Do some sums on the crewing costs of an aircraft with 3 cockpit crew, 1 FM and 15 FA's, rotating month on, month off and see how expensive it will be to operate something like this.

Mutt

[chornedsnorkack]

Census

Here is a link which might be "useful".

http://www.flightglobal.com/census/businesscensus.aspx

Now, sum up the widebodies, as of 18. IX 2007:

1X A300 in the whole world.
7X A310
1X A330
9X A340-200
1X A340-500
1X A340-600

3X B747-200, out of which 1 is in Middle East and the other 2 are the VC-25s (The 4 E-4B-s are for some reason not included).
1X 747-300
12X 747-400
7X 747SP
5X 767-200
5X 767-300
2X 777-200

2X MD-11

2X Il-96 (in Europe - probably Putinīs)

2X Tristar 500.

And that is all - the whole world widebody fleet of 61 frames. As noted, the military operated frames are included, such as VC-25s.

[Lindberg]

Thanks & apologize, chornedsnorkack

This is a good link and summary

[mutt]

Yikes, 9 of these belong to us.....

Glad we arent trying to make money

Mutt

[chornedsnorkack]

Considerations

As you see, my point is that with very few widebodies in the world, and most of them toys of bosses, there are often too few examples around to discern a preference on this or that matter.

One big choice is the choice of either a new built and ordered widebody, which has very high initial purchase price but high reliability and low maintenance and fuel cost, or secondhand old airliner conversion, with low purchase price but heavy maintenance, poor reliability and high fuel cost.

As for engine number, there are 9 Airbus twins and 12 Boeing twins. 4 trijets - 2 MD-11 and 2 Tristar 500 planes. Quads are 11 A340s, 23 B747s and 2 Il-96 planes.