PF/PNF at European operators
PF/PNF at European operators
I've been firing off some applications to corporate jet operators, with a view to becoming an FO and stepping up from my current turbine job.
Went for a recent interview where they explained, when asked, that their FO's fly pretty much P2 only, as PNF. No PICUS/PF sectors in general, perhaps the odd ferry sector here or there whereupon seats could be swapped if skipper appropriately checked out to fly RHS. Important to note that this was on a type certified as a single-pilot aircraft, albeit operated multi-crew.
So, my question: if you work for a European based bizjet operator flying multi-crew ops i.a.w. JAR-OPS, do you alternate PF/PNF between sectors as with most airlines, or does the PF tend to be left seat PIC while the FO does the PNF stuff (and logs P2)? Might be useful if any respondant can indicate the type of a/c (i.e. designed/certified as SPA or MPA).
Just my attempt to gauge the sector; pardon my ignorance!
I fly single-pilot ops at the moment and enjoy the handling time, would prefer to keep getting hands-on flying (and accruing supervised command time to boot) if I move into a 2-crew ops.
Thanks.
Went for a recent interview where they explained, when asked, that their FO's fly pretty much P2 only, as PNF. No PICUS/PF sectors in general, perhaps the odd ferry sector here or there whereupon seats could be swapped if skipper appropriately checked out to fly RHS. Important to note that this was on a type certified as a single-pilot aircraft, albeit operated multi-crew.
So, my question: if you work for a European based bizjet operator flying multi-crew ops i.a.w. JAR-OPS, do you alternate PF/PNF between sectors as with most airlines, or does the PF tend to be left seat PIC while the FO does the PNF stuff (and logs P2)? Might be useful if any respondant can indicate the type of a/c (i.e. designed/certified as SPA or MPA).
Just my attempt to gauge the sector; pardon my ignorance!
I fly single-pilot ops at the moment and enjoy the handling time, would prefer to keep getting hands-on flying (and accruing supervised command time to boot) if I move into a 2-crew ops.
Thanks.
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I fly a GLF4 (MPA) under JAR-OPS. We share the the flying time equally - i.e. one leg the captain is PF and one leg the co-pilot is PF. The captain logs PIC time and the co-pilot logs P2-time (or in some logbooks co-pilot time).
From time to time I help out on a single-pilot airplane. I'm not type-rated, so I sit on the right seat (doing checklists and radio calls) and can NOT log any time at all. I'm just sitting there as a safety pilot. That's JAR-OPS
, in the US you can log this time as well.
Hope this helps...
Cheers
From time to time I help out on a single-pilot airplane. I'm not type-rated, so I sit on the right seat (doing checklists and radio calls) and can NOT log any time at all. I'm just sitting there as a safety pilot. That's JAR-OPS
, in the US you can log this time as well.Hope this helps...
Cheers
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FL470 is right
Usually in a multi crew plane you share the legs. The F/O logs P2 time. PICUS is something you usually can get during the upgrade. The P1 must be properly certified, usually TRI (or training captain in some countries). This is serious stuff, because you can loose the coverage of the insurance easily if not properly certified. Usually the MFO decides who is ready to fly PICUS. This is definitely not decided by the crew members. The OM gives the guideline about all details. All I am talking about is in commercial ops! So enjoy flying from the R/H seat. There is no big difference except for taxiing. With enough experience you will be upgraded anyway. There is a lack of qualified pilots anyway... Don't push... 
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Hello Charley,
In our company legs are fairly split up between captain and co-pilot, except for some restrictions regarding monitored approaches and so on.
Aircraft type Global Express.
Be careful with logging time. You cannot log P1 in the left seat if you are not designated captain. For example, we often have two captains flying together. One will be the captain for the day, and will log P1 (irrespective of which seat he occupies, or whether he's PF or PNF on that leg), whilst the other will log P2. The next day we'll 'change hats' and the other guy logs command time.
You will get to log PICUS once your company has placed you on an upgrade programme and you fly with a line-training captain, and PIC or P1 once fully released as captain and when actually designated as captain on a particular flight.
You will find that most good bizjet operators will alternate PF/PNF between captain and F/O, and rightly so.
What kind of flying are you involved in at the moment?
Hope this helps and best of luck,
Bug
In our company legs are fairly split up between captain and co-pilot, except for some restrictions regarding monitored approaches and so on.
Aircraft type Global Express.
Be careful with logging time. You cannot log P1 in the left seat if you are not designated captain. For example, we often have two captains flying together. One will be the captain for the day, and will log P1 (irrespective of which seat he occupies, or whether he's PF or PNF on that leg), whilst the other will log P2. The next day we'll 'change hats' and the other guy logs command time.
You will get to log PICUS once your company has placed you on an upgrade programme and you fly with a line-training captain, and PIC or P1 once fully released as captain and when actually designated as captain on a particular flight.
You will find that most good bizjet operators will alternate PF/PNF between captain and F/O, and rightly so.
What kind of flying are you involved in at the moment?
Hope this helps and best of luck,
Bug
Thanks very much for the replies. I've been enlightened and from my point of view it was well worth asking the question.
I also appreciate the feedback on how time gets logged within the bizjet sector. Definitely a salutory lesson and I'll be referencing the applicable part of the Ops Manual at any future employer. As a point of explanation, the root of my PICUS misunderstanding comes from conversations with friends; most of them have ended up with airlines and previous conversations with them led me to believe that they logged PICUS when acting as the PF in the right seat. Indeed, a quick straw poll once I saw the responses to this thread suggested that 4 out of 5 do indeed log either PICUS or P1/S when operating as PF in the right seat, complete with the captain's signature in the book after the flight.
Perhaps they are on a de facto upgrade course simply by virtue of how their respective employers operate, perhaps not, but clearly there are differences between operators or perhaps between the airline and corporate sectors. Either way it has been good to get your views, thank you for sharing them.
To address some specific points;
B200Drvr - I can't answer your question, other than to say that in my case I would be rated on type, and therefore would expect to be able to log something in a multi-crew environment.
Lindberg - As you say, not much difference in flying from either seat, except perhaps in my case the aircraft was designed and indeed certified to be single-pilot. The a/c in question can be equipped to have a truly multi-crew cockpit (i.e. the full glass on both sides) but I gather the specific examples at the company I've talked to don't, they only have the Proline and FMS stuff on one side of the cockpit. I've since learned that it can be flown from the RHS, but it is a bit awkward when using the automatics.
Bug - Right now I work for an operator that provides aircraft as sensory platforms for our customers. The sensors vary from client to client and contract to contract. It's all single-pilot work, and occurs on either European or 'N'-registered aircraft depending on the contract.
Thanks all for the guidance, it has been well received.
Safe skies
I also appreciate the feedback on how time gets logged within the bizjet sector. Definitely a salutory lesson and I'll be referencing the applicable part of the Ops Manual at any future employer. As a point of explanation, the root of my PICUS misunderstanding comes from conversations with friends; most of them have ended up with airlines and previous conversations with them led me to believe that they logged PICUS when acting as the PF in the right seat. Indeed, a quick straw poll once I saw the responses to this thread suggested that 4 out of 5 do indeed log either PICUS or P1/S when operating as PF in the right seat, complete with the captain's signature in the book after the flight.
Perhaps they are on a de facto upgrade course simply by virtue of how their respective employers operate, perhaps not, but clearly there are differences between operators or perhaps between the airline and corporate sectors. Either way it has been good to get your views, thank you for sharing them.
To address some specific points;
B200Drvr - I can't answer your question, other than to say that in my case I would be rated on type, and therefore would expect to be able to log something in a multi-crew environment.
Lindberg - As you say, not much difference in flying from either seat, except perhaps in my case the aircraft was designed and indeed certified to be single-pilot. The a/c in question can be equipped to have a truly multi-crew cockpit (i.e. the full glass on both sides) but I gather the specific examples at the company I've talked to don't, they only have the Proline and FMS stuff on one side of the cockpit. I've since learned that it can be flown from the RHS, but it is a bit awkward when using the automatics.
Bug - Right now I work for an operator that provides aircraft as sensory platforms for our customers. The sensors vary from client to client and contract to contract. It's all single-pilot work, and occurs on either European or 'N'-registered aircraft depending on the contract.
Thanks all for the guidance, it has been well received.
Safe skies
