Cold Weather BizJet Supremos
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Middle East
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cold Weather BizJet Supremos
I was wondering what people's opinions are concerning the best medium to heavy business jets in Cold weather?
We have many aircraft travelling to places like Moscow and Astana and the smaller jets (L60) just don't seem to like it!
The CL300 fares OK, but having spent only 3 days in Moscow the wood fascia opposite the door had split form top to bottom!
HS800XP?
Gulfstream?
7X seems to have passed the test admirably but....
We have many aircraft travelling to places like Moscow and Astana and the smaller jets (L60) just don't seem to like it!
The CL300 fares OK, but having spent only 3 days in Moscow the wood fascia opposite the door had split form top to bottom!
HS800XP?
Gulfstream?
7X seems to have passed the test admirably but....
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Far away from LA
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the 7X get the cold soak trial OK, technically wise. This is to say that after 45 minutes with 6 mechanics, they managed to start the Apu, and 15 minutes later the Engines without having to change any parts. BTW the interior in Iqualit was scarce...
the fact that the interior is falling apart or not, is not part of the test. I remember while ago , walking back to my Gulfstream in the Maldives after a week , to see the interior hanging down in a somewhat artistic free style curtainish mess. I have seen Falcons with wooden doors stucked closed until we broke them open in Africa.
the bottom line is , if it can start it is good to go. The very good thing on the CL300 is the fact that everything is accessible from outside, therefore it is used to cold situation LoL !
When the weather get extreme, there is no way out , get hangarage. On the Dassault AFM it even states that for CIS registered aircrafts, you cannot operate them it they sat in temperature below -40° ( do not ask F or C or I kick you LoL )
some operators got mechanics, that go to the aircraft every 6hours or so, power the beast for an hour and shut it down again. I have to say that this is the only thing to do in extreme weather. But what a pain !
the fact that the interior is falling apart or not, is not part of the test. I remember while ago , walking back to my Gulfstream in the Maldives after a week , to see the interior hanging down in a somewhat artistic free style curtainish mess. I have seen Falcons with wooden doors stucked closed until we broke them open in Africa.
the bottom line is , if it can start it is good to go. The very good thing on the CL300 is the fact that everything is accessible from outside, therefore it is used to cold situation LoL !
When the weather get extreme, there is no way out , get hangarage. On the Dassault AFM it even states that for CIS registered aircrafts, you cannot operate them it they sat in temperature below -40° ( do not ask F or C or I kick you LoL )
some operators got mechanics, that go to the aircraft every 6hours or so, power the beast for an hour and shut it down again. I have to say that this is the only thing to do in extreme weather. But what a pain !
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Nearest Bombardier AMO
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh, there's plenty.
Yak, Antonov, Illyushin... built for it.
The western jobs just go t1ts-up. Ours lives outside in the cold and is a complete nightmare. Cracking in the wood? The cracking in our interior is so widespread it now almost looks intentional, part of the interior-design! If only that was the only worry. Crappers freeze up, have replaced 2 UV-filters, batteries struggle, O2 has to be topped up every flight, tire pressures, hydraulics, R/H windshield cracked once when windshield-heat switched on, screens freeze up, nose-cover stuck to the airframe, etc...
Yak, Antonov, Illyushin... built for it.
The western jobs just go t1ts-up. Ours lives outside in the cold and is a complete nightmare. Cracking in the wood? The cracking in our interior is so widespread it now almost looks intentional, part of the interior-design! If only that was the only worry. Crappers freeze up, have replaced 2 UV-filters, batteries struggle, O2 has to be topped up every flight, tire pressures, hydraulics, R/H windshield cracked once when windshield-heat switched on, screens freeze up, nose-cover stuck to the airframe, etc...
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Nearest Bombardier AMO
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Forgot to mention the day the gear-pins were frozen in place. Couldn't budge them. Tried vodka (works for everything else!), no go, had to get an air-cart to thaw the buggers out.
Don't get me started on hangars! Whenever we grace Vnukovo with our presence in summer they stick us in the hangar to make money off of us, whereas now in winter they mostly say they don't have space!
(Reminds me of the time they wouldn't let us add 4000-or-so pounds of fuel before parking us in the hangar (in summer!). When I asked for the reason: fire-hazard. So they parked us in the hangar as we were, with some 20 000 lbs remaining in the tanks...
)
Don't get me started on hangars! Whenever we grace Vnukovo with our presence in summer they stick us in the hangar to make money off of us, whereas now in winter they mostly say they don't have space!
(Reminds me of the time they wouldn't let us add 4000-or-so pounds of fuel before parking us in the hangar (in summer!). When I asked for the reason: fire-hazard. So they parked us in the hangar as we were, with some 20 000 lbs remaining in the tanks...
)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Middle East
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the comments so far.
I am tempted to gowith Doodlebug's suggestion re the Russian equipment but we are consciously trying to steer clear of this.
Frozen crappers can be avoided with anti-freeze but what do you say to the clients when they can't wash their hands!?
What about the Citation X?
I am tempted to gowith Doodlebug's suggestion re the Russian equipment but we are consciously trying to steer clear of this.
Frozen crappers can be avoided with anti-freeze but what do you say to the clients when they can't wash their hands!?
What about the Citation X?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dark side of the force
Age: 55
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vnukovo in winter is a pain, Have you already done the training for flying into former Soviet Union? I fly LJ60 over there and we have mainly problems with the handling, the aircraft behaves good but we need outside heaters, we donīt get hangar but we are careful not to leave any drinks on board, empty all liquids...
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: France
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Winter in the East
Transilvana:
I operated, on tours, in far eastern Russia, over a five year period in the 1990's in a Bizjet.
During the winter when no hangar was available, it would take between one and four hours to prepare the aircraft for departure. It was arranged for an igloo type hangar to be imported, heated etc.,and we could be ready for departure in an hour.
In one winter the temperature did not get above 0 degree centergrade for 8 months and went as low as minus 30.
It taught you a lot!
Tmb
I operated, on tours, in far eastern Russia, over a five year period in the 1990's in a Bizjet.
During the winter when no hangar was available, it would take between one and four hours to prepare the aircraft for departure. It was arranged for an igloo type hangar to be imported, heated etc.,and we could be ready for departure in an hour.
In one winter the temperature did not get above 0 degree centergrade for 8 months and went as low as minus 30.
It taught you a lot!
Tmb
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where the sun shines on the righteous
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not often i agree with Mike Jenvey, but..........
He's right in that the Hawker 800 copes very well with the frozen north. As long as all the freezable liquids are off its pretty un-bustable. After a 3 day stop-over in northern Norway and a foot of snow, the biggest challange was folding and stowing the engine covers!
He's right in that the Hawker 800 copes very well with the frozen north. As long as all the freezable liquids are off its pretty un-bustable. After a 3 day stop-over in northern Norway and a foot of snow, the biggest challange was folding and stowing the engine covers!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Middle East
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting comments re the HS800, I was under the impression that the wing anti-icing was provided chemically as opposed to heat and that the reserve was only enough for one hour. Was this problematic? Did you encounter amy problems with availability?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indeed, the Mighty Hawker uses TKS for it's anti-icing. It has been since it's arrival to aviation in 1963, so do cut it some slack.
What is particularly useful is to keep the TKS timer going until touchdown as in these lowspeed conditions the TKS spread over the wings is optimal.
This make's de-icing the wing so much easier after it has been sitting in SVO for 3 days. Which it does ...a lot!
The next problem is tough, your TKS supply in Russia. Fill up where ever you can. (story of my life
)
.
Littletony.
What is particularly useful is to keep the TKS timer going until touchdown as in these lowspeed conditions the TKS spread over the wings is optimal.
This make's de-icing the wing so much easier after it has been sitting in SVO for 3 days. Which it does ...a lot!
The next problem is tough, your TKS supply in Russia. Fill up where ever you can. (story of my life
).
Littletony.
