NetJets Pilots..........
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Mostly here, but often there
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Riveting though this witty badinage is, any chance someone could answer my genuine question?
All very informative - thanks. One question; is there a salary increase based on seniority, or are you pegged at the advertised 95,000 Euros (for captains)? If there is an increase, could anyone advise as to what this would be.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Each year your salary will be corrected with the inflation of Portugal. And after three years as a captain you receive a relatively small bonus, if profit has been made.
Cheers RV
Cheers RV
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Italy
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The five off sounds great until you realise that you will spend at least the first day home recovering, more like two. The last day off will be spent ramping up to go back to work so that really only gives a maxumum of three days to relax. Many, many other companies give even days on/off ie, 7/7, 14/14, month on/off etc.
Many airline pilots would give a lot for a roster like the one NJE offers.
I'm flying for a not-too-bad regional airline. As far as I kow you won't get 6-5 or anything close to it when doing airline-flying, at least as long as you don't go for long distance cargo ops. In this case you have to work at night. For the most airlines that I know you get 5-2 or maybe 5-3. Or, in my case, sometimes 6-2.
Only if you are lucky enough to live at the place where your airline uses to start and end their daily tours you can be better off. I had to move several times for my company, and each time it got worse, e.g. travelling to some city on day 1 and returning from another city on day 5 or 6. But then I got 2 days off, not 5 days. 2 days is good for repacking your stuff, sleep a bit and than say good bye to your family for the next 5 or 6 days. Medium and small airlines just won't give you the luxury of having certain bases where you can be sure of. In fact many small airlines change their bases according to market demands. And we as pilots then have the honour of telling our families its time to move once again. Or you don't move - and end up with self-financed 5 or 6 day-tours.
OK if you compare NJE with easyjet or LH or some other european mayor airlines I would also choose the airline. But for those airline pilots that didn't end up with the majors, NJE, especially their roster, sounds VERY VERY tempting. And the fact that moving around is finished, and you can live almost everywhere you want is worth much more than money can pay.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: U and K
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can anyone answer this question ...
I am hoping to work for NetJets Europe in the future.
I am planning to live in Portugal and have Lisboa as my gateway.
I am British, but would be moving over to Portugal for good, so would I be on one of these UK contracts I hear about (as i'm a Brit), or just a Portuguese one and just pay Portuguese tax ???
Cheers
I am hoping to work for NetJets Europe in the future.
I am planning to live in Portugal and have Lisboa as my gateway.
I am British, but would be moving over to Portugal for good, so would I be on one of these UK contracts I hear about (as i'm a Brit), or just a Portuguese one and just pay Portuguese tax ???
Cheers
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cautiously eyeing the outside world.
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by L269G
smeagel - there's a lot of good points in your posts but this one sounds weird to me.
The rest of what I wrote is accurate. NJE can work you very hard. Five consecutive nights of minumum rest can be the norm as can be running out of duty time in five days.
If you find yourself on a non-apu aircraft you either cook or freeze depending upon the season. It's sapping, tiring work and you need time to recover.
On paper the roster looks better than an airline but believe me it takes a toll.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Italy
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On paper the roster looks better than an airline but believe me it takes a toll.
The good thing about this is that the company I'm currently flying for doesn't look that bad anymore. Thanks..
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I work for Ryanair a 5/4 work pattern with practically no night stops/positioning or all that other crap. Hard work when you're working but good time off and I make good money. Contractors do 5/5 too.
Can't remember my last roster change which is a huge issue for me.I like it quite a lot overall and can't think of a better deal here in the UK.
(I know a lot of people don't like Ryanair so don't tell me how awful they are - I've been around a while and worked for plenty so called good companies to compare so I really don't need to hear it thanks.)
Can't remember my last roster change which is a huge issue for me.I like it quite a lot overall and can't think of a better deal here in the UK.
(I know a lot of people don't like Ryanair so don't tell me how awful they are - I've been around a while and worked for plenty so called good companies to compare so I really don't need to hear it thanks.)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cautiously eyeing the outside world.
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suppose compared to some of the bottom feeding companies who keep their crew on standby 24/7 and roster days off restrospectively NJE is a step up but for those who have been there more than a year or two without moving onto the larger cabin aircraft, it's hard work. Horses for courses.
I suppose they are. Where it really begins to bite is when you are rostered less than five days off or are tempted to work extra days. I don't care how much they offer to do that, it's just not worth it.
Probably the 5 days OFF really are some kind of painkiller.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Innerspace
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why?
Hey Schmuck, do you get a bonus / personal reward for every soul you convince not even trying to apply to work for NJE? You must be a rich dude then. We have appr. 700 Pilots, too bad that only the same frustrated Ex or Soon-to-be-Ex make business here 
The few who dare to oppose your wisdom do get written away with your tempting urge to sing out every piece of interna which comes to your ears. You are a star, you deserve to be on the cover.
The few who dare to oppose your wisdom do get written away with your tempting urge to sing out every piece of interna which comes to your ears. You are a star, you deserve to be on the cover.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cautiously eyeing the outside world.
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey 4Green! Where you been hiding?
Missed you and your sunny disposition.
Feel free to give the folks your version of the company, it's only fair. Some will choose to believe yours, some mine (and others) and the rest in between. Be boring if we were all the same, eh?
The difference between you and I is that I have no vested interest, I stand to gain nothing by telling people what I think of NJE and the situation regarding things like a contract that will rob some pilots of 90% of their pay.
Whereas you.................................., I'm sorry. Just what IS your role within the company? I'm sure you must have mentioned it before but it escapes me.
Missed you and your sunny disposition.Feel free to give the folks your version of the company, it's only fair. Some will choose to believe yours, some mine (and others) and the rest in between. Be boring if we were all the same, eh?
The difference between you and I is that I have no vested interest, I stand to gain nothing by telling people what I think of NJE and the situation regarding things like a contract that will rob some pilots of 90% of their pay.
Whereas you.................................., I'm sorry. Just what IS your role within the company? I'm sure you must have mentioned it before but it escapes me.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Innerspace
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As you know, I dont oppose your Points of View, they got more ballanced lately, I think the sunny life outside NTA grooms some mildness in your razorsharp views. I am still criticizing your lack of confidentiality which I dont understand. Do personal matters from a FM really belong here? Or diciplinary matters involving crewmembers?
I realized that PPRUNE is not a good forum to get or send valuable information regarding NJE anymore since all of them are blown away by the same people over and over again. You have valuable points, I admire your deadication towards the company, although it has a very sharp minor coloratura, but it might show that you still care about the company more than most of the currently employed.
Whatever.
It is really too bad, that PPRUNE is not the forum it used to be, it would be so much more helpful if more Pilots would post, and do not turn away. Jetbl . . . PPRUNE all are dead for NJE information, only the same few people posting the same stuff over and over again, where are the other 680? Whats their opinion?
Come on guys: Post! Discuss! The forum is depending upon you. Its dead meat right now. Are you all too tired after the six demanding days to type a post? Spend all your recovery time with the tax-lawyer? Or wait for the forum to be ready soon in the intranet?
I realized that PPRUNE is not a good forum to get or send valuable information regarding NJE anymore since all of them are blown away by the same people over and over again. You have valuable points, I admire your deadication towards the company, although it has a very sharp minor coloratura, but it might show that you still care about the company more than most of the currently employed.
Whatever.
It is really too bad, that PPRUNE is not the forum it used to be, it would be so much more helpful if more Pilots would post, and do not turn away. Jetbl . . . PPRUNE all are dead for NJE information, only the same few people posting the same stuff over and over again, where are the other 680? Whats their opinion?
Come on guys: Post! Discuss! The forum is depending upon you. Its dead meat right now. Are you all too tired after the six demanding days to type a post? Spend all your recovery time with the tax-lawyer? Or wait for the forum to be ready soon in the intranet?
Last edited by FourGreenNoRed; 3rd Sep 2007 at 22:40.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: england
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
4Green, perhaps a very happy ex, not frustrated at all, could put his four pennyworth in.
The nice things about Netjets are the people you fly with (mostly), modern airframes ( luckily never had to fly one without an APU), and lots of interesting places to go.
Where to start on the bad things? Well, I didn't like carrying an ever increasing number of snags around until time can be found to go into maintenance. Always,"Just another couple of sectors." I especially didn't like being told I had to operate with an A/C I considered unserviceable. That can be fixed, however, by asking for a fax granting permission to fly, with a signature at the bottom. Funny how the A/C then becomes unserviceable!
I didn't like a Fleet Manager who couldn't have been more invisible if he'd been frozen to absolute zero. I didn't like having to find out operational and technical information whilst on recurrent, which should have been disseminated by the Fleet Office. I didn't like not having phone calls returned and emails not answered. Many of the Fleet Managers do a very good job. I just happened to have one that was useless.
I didn't like having to phone a dispatcher to get permission to do the most mundane thing, especially when the dispatcher has all of six months experience. And because of this lack of experience, the BOOK was rigidly adhered to, even when it was patently absurd. An example, one of many I could quote:
Me: We have a show time of half an hour before the airfield opens.
Dispatcher: I know, but you have passengers, so you have to show an hour and a half before T/O.
Me: But the airfield only opens an hour before departure.
Dis: I know, but you have passengers, so you have to show an hour and a half before T/O.
Repeated several times.
Me: What would you like me to do for the other half an hour?
Dis: Perhaps you could sit in the taxi outside the gates until they open!
Me: But that's stupid.
Dis: I know, but the last time I changed the showtime, I had a letter put on my file!
And so on, ad infinitem. How can you possibly expect staff to show initiative, if you punish them for doing so? I telephoned four managers and all claimed that they did not have the authority to change the show time. It's Company Policy. It's stupid, but it's Company Policy. What happened? We did what any self respecting crew would do. We had an extra half hour in bed. The taxi driver was somewhat miffed, however, at having to wait for us.
Netjets relies on the crew to reduce rest, to cut show times, to reduce turnarounds, to go the extra mile to keep the show on the road. And in the main, the crews are happy to help. God forbid, however, that the crew wants something in return or something goes wrong. Hardly have the engines been shut down before the Blackberry is ringing with a peremptory demand for reasons for the delay, diversion, etc. This after dispatch have been informed of late arrival of pax, bad weather, et al. Then there is the phone call," Hello, my friend". That was the phrase that always had me donning the tin hat. Whatever was arranged, extend for a day for a specific flight, reduce rest, split duty. Whatever the payback, when the time came to collect, it was always, "There's nothing here about that, or Nobody passed me any message, or That's against Company Policy".
I suppose the most frustrating thing about Netjets, is that it all could be so different. Get a decent set of managers in Lisbon, not just people who are playing the system to get a fleet change, give people the authority to use their initiative, reward good work and play it straight with the workforce. Not just the crews, but the whole workforce.
Won't happen of course.
Well I feel much better for that, even though the blood pressure has risen alarmingly.
Finally. How do you know when Lisbon is lying? Their lips are moving.
How do you know that for once the're telling the truth? When you see their hearse go by.
The nice things about Netjets are the people you fly with (mostly), modern airframes ( luckily never had to fly one without an APU), and lots of interesting places to go.
Where to start on the bad things? Well, I didn't like carrying an ever increasing number of snags around until time can be found to go into maintenance. Always,"Just another couple of sectors." I especially didn't like being told I had to operate with an A/C I considered unserviceable. That can be fixed, however, by asking for a fax granting permission to fly, with a signature at the bottom. Funny how the A/C then becomes unserviceable!
I didn't like a Fleet Manager who couldn't have been more invisible if he'd been frozen to absolute zero. I didn't like having to find out operational and technical information whilst on recurrent, which should have been disseminated by the Fleet Office. I didn't like not having phone calls returned and emails not answered. Many of the Fleet Managers do a very good job. I just happened to have one that was useless.
I didn't like having to phone a dispatcher to get permission to do the most mundane thing, especially when the dispatcher has all of six months experience. And because of this lack of experience, the BOOK was rigidly adhered to, even when it was patently absurd. An example, one of many I could quote:
Me: We have a show time of half an hour before the airfield opens.
Dispatcher: I know, but you have passengers, so you have to show an hour and a half before T/O.
Me: But the airfield only opens an hour before departure.
Dis: I know, but you have passengers, so you have to show an hour and a half before T/O.
Repeated several times.
Me: What would you like me to do for the other half an hour?
Dis: Perhaps you could sit in the taxi outside the gates until they open!
Me: But that's stupid.
Dis: I know, but the last time I changed the showtime, I had a letter put on my file!
And so on, ad infinitem. How can you possibly expect staff to show initiative, if you punish them for doing so? I telephoned four managers and all claimed that they did not have the authority to change the show time. It's Company Policy. It's stupid, but it's Company Policy. What happened? We did what any self respecting crew would do. We had an extra half hour in bed. The taxi driver was somewhat miffed, however, at having to wait for us.
Netjets relies on the crew to reduce rest, to cut show times, to reduce turnarounds, to go the extra mile to keep the show on the road. And in the main, the crews are happy to help. God forbid, however, that the crew wants something in return or something goes wrong. Hardly have the engines been shut down before the Blackberry is ringing with a peremptory demand for reasons for the delay, diversion, etc. This after dispatch have been informed of late arrival of pax, bad weather, et al. Then there is the phone call," Hello, my friend". That was the phrase that always had me donning the tin hat. Whatever was arranged, extend for a day for a specific flight, reduce rest, split duty. Whatever the payback, when the time came to collect, it was always, "There's nothing here about that, or Nobody passed me any message, or That's against Company Policy".
I suppose the most frustrating thing about Netjets, is that it all could be so different. Get a decent set of managers in Lisbon, not just people who are playing the system to get a fleet change, give people the authority to use their initiative, reward good work and play it straight with the workforce. Not just the crews, but the whole workforce.
Won't happen of course.
Well I feel much better for that, even though the blood pressure has risen alarmingly.
Finally. How do you know when Lisbon is lying? Their lips are moving.
How do you know that for once the're telling the truth? When you see their hearse go by.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Innerspace
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh I know excactly what you are talking about. Some of the things are so dump, they qualify for a good lough at the bar at night rather than to be taken serious. However drop by drop cause frustration. From knowing all the real dark times I have to say, that the steps are small but the monster moves. There are new people in charge in key departments like HR which make a diffrence. The new "DM" is listening and receptive to everybody bringing a qualified view. The FltOps established a SOF which filters the BS before its hits the crew and makes a difference, a new scheduling policy will be out soon to cover turnarounds and show-goes in a way that they become a part of the OM and are not deductable anymore.
Small steps which come toooooo late to avoid good people from leaving.
Sorry to get your bloodpressure rising, not worth it but well received.
Small steps which come toooooo late to avoid good people from leaving.
Sorry to get your bloodpressure rising, not worth it but well received.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cautiously eyeing the outside world.
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, not a rant or quest for an argument but some honest answers then. Here we go:
True. Which should tell you something about how life inside NJE can grind you down.
A contract is a two-sided thing. NJE broke it long ago when they cut pay, changed terms and conditions etc without consultation. I fail to see why I should honour a contract when they do not. Had they treated me and others decently, as professionals, as a person and with respect I would not need a written contract to keep me quiet. I would do so as a matter of principle. Sadly NJE don't have principles or a conscience so they can hardly complain when they get some of their own medicine, can they?
I agree. You need more people talking about what is affecting you but the problem is they are scared. You have your own, independent crew forum elsewhere yet the management lackey on the indoc tells new hires (falsely) that NJE management have access there and can identify them. No way then that they'll risk airing their views out here in public. As for using the intranet forum, no chance. Who in their right mind is going to complain about the company in a forum that really is run by the company?
There are (proportionately) more people in NJE (sorry, NTAS) who are relatively new hires looking to upgrade so keep their mouths shut. You hear the same talk from them as I do in the fbo's, restaurants and bars. They don't like the way they are treated but will tolerate it "...just a little longer.....just until I get my command.....maybe I'll get on the 7X........or the Gulfstream....".
What does this tell you about your management*? They have to lie and intimidate their employees because they fear what might happen if (when) you all become organised. You had the benefit of the wisdom and experience of the Teamsters union who came over from the US and told you how the parent company operates and the union busting tactics they employ. Almost all of these tactics have been used by NJE so why, why oh why do most of you not believe that you are being played? Basically, you blew it.
It's just so bloody frustrating. You have some excellent people but the little Napoleons protecting their mini empires in Lisbon won't put them to use for fear of their own inadequacies being held up to the light. For the same reasons they refuse to remove the incompetents. The whole place is as big a shambles as it ever was if not more so. Every so often they invent another management post or department that never solves anything but just wastes more money.
This hardly raises my blood pressure at all these days. It just saddens me to think what could have been and the people sacrificed in their failed attempts to achieve it.
(*Mainly upper management.)
Originally Posted by 4Green
I think the sunny life outside NTA grooms some mildness in your razorsharp views.
Originally Posted by 4Green
I am still criticizing your lack of confidentiality which I dont understand.
Originally Posted by 4Green
Come on guys: Post! Discuss! The forum is depending upon you.
There are (proportionately) more people in NJE (sorry, NTAS) who are relatively new hires looking to upgrade so keep their mouths shut. You hear the same talk from them as I do in the fbo's, restaurants and bars. They don't like the way they are treated but will tolerate it "...just a little longer.....just until I get my command.....maybe I'll get on the 7X........or the Gulfstream....".
What does this tell you about your management*? They have to lie and intimidate their employees because they fear what might happen if (when) you all become organised. You had the benefit of the wisdom and experience of the Teamsters union who came over from the US and told you how the parent company operates and the union busting tactics they employ. Almost all of these tactics have been used by NJE so why, why oh why do most of you not believe that you are being played? Basically, you blew it.
It's just so bloody frustrating. You have some excellent people but the little Napoleons protecting their mini empires in Lisbon won't put them to use for fear of their own inadequacies being held up to the light. For the same reasons they refuse to remove the incompetents. The whole place is as big a shambles as it ever was if not more so. Every so often they invent another management post or department that never solves anything but just wastes more money.
This hardly raises my blood pressure at all these days. It just saddens me to think what could have been and the people sacrificed in their failed attempts to achieve it.
(*Mainly upper management.)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Innerspace
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not aware of the management tracking the sources of whatever kind of Forum Posts here or anywhere else. A certain value in confidentiality or loyality is to be expected from every employee. Wherever you work. Being reminded about it doesnt make me nervous. Singing out things which are company interna is a punishible act especially with NJE since most of our customers rely on this. There life is endangered if certain information is revealed. Agreed, its a thin line.
Open Communication is promoted and executed from the High-End to the very bottom lately and a trace of the functionality is your knowledge of the company although you are not employed with NTA anymore.
Its a long and stony way after having the excact opposite for too long. People being afraid of speaking up because they know they will be punished if cought. Those times are gone although some of the creeps are still around.
Crew News, Safety-Letters, Mandatory FM-Info-Mails, GRT sessions, Crew Forum . . .
All not perfect yet and some of the little caesars have to move on, but this is just a matter of time. I rather fear the classic leaders out of the fancy business schools are taking over too much.
Lets wait and see, its a wide open market and everyone is free to move.
Open Communication is promoted and executed from the High-End to the very bottom lately and a trace of the functionality is your knowledge of the company although you are not employed with NTA anymore.
Its a long and stony way after having the excact opposite for too long. People being afraid of speaking up because they know they will be punished if cought. Those times are gone although some of the creeps are still around.
Crew News, Safety-Letters, Mandatory FM-Info-Mails, GRT sessions, Crew Forum . . .
All not perfect yet and some of the little caesars have to move on, but this is just a matter of time. I rather fear the classic leaders out of the fancy business schools are taking over too much.
Lets wait and see, its a wide open market and everyone is free to move.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just one point 4Green.
There is one person in Lisbon who is tasked with logging in to the crew forum on JB every day and reporting back to her managers (Hi Ana! Bom dia). On more than one occasion printed pages from that forum have been handed out during meetings there.
I know this because I was one of the people who created that forum. As you are no doubt aware the administrators of such sites can see who logs in, when they logged in, which topics they examined and their real identities.
As the forum was invented as a way of communicating with management we should hardly be disappointed that they are using it. A shame they do it in such an underhand way though and it's one-way traffic.
Oh, and to clarify. It is a secure site so despite what one of the creeps tells new hires on the indoc course your company cannot identify any users. (You would be surprised at some of the people who do use it though and some of the things they post).
There is one person in Lisbon who is tasked with logging in to the crew forum on JB every day and reporting back to her managers (Hi Ana! Bom dia
). On more than one occasion printed pages from that forum have been handed out during meetings there.I know this because I was one of the people who created that forum. As you are no doubt aware the administrators of such sites can see who logs in, when they logged in, which topics they examined and their real identities.
As the forum was invented as a way of communicating with management we should hardly be disappointed that they are using it. A shame they do it in such an underhand way though and it's one-way traffic.
Oh, and to clarify. It is a secure site so despite what one of the creeps tells new hires on the indoc course your company cannot identify any users. (You would be surprised at some of the people who do use it though and some of the things they post).
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Innerspace
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good morning Flinstone. This was an agreed upon procedure which is of no intrest anymore, since JB is the most boring forum there is. The same people posting the same stuff all over again. It has no value because its a dead source.
This Com-Flow is obsolete since the overall company culture regarding this has changed.
Of course there might be a few from the Management who read this, but the guidelines changed, the sources promoted to be direct and open.
Not too succesful yet, since most people are still feared to death. Takes some time to get this out.
There are new people in charge in London about internal comunication and poor A can concentrate on her duties in Lisboa.
It takes some time as said before and the promotion of the future forum is has not yet to be started.
As you know Crew News post Crewmembers postings with the respective answers from the management. It is accepted, with real names and already with a wider variety than JB.
Its a start.
This Com-Flow is obsolete since the overall company culture regarding this has changed.
Of course there might be a few from the Management who read this, but the guidelines changed, the sources promoted to be direct and open.
Not too succesful yet, since most people are still feared to death. Takes some time to get this out.
There are new people in charge in London about internal comunication and poor A can concentrate on her duties in Lisboa.
It takes some time as said before and the promotion of the future forum is has not yet to be started.
As you know Crew News post Crewmembers postings with the respective answers from the management. It is accepted, with real names and already with a wider variety than JB.
Its a start.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Both Lisbon and the London offices pay very close attention to what is written on JB. The log-in records do not lie. It may bore you but others disagree and continue to use it. Maybe if someone such as yourself had made the effort you could have created something far more stimulating.
Your management admitted that the JB forum made them aware of just how poorly they communicate with the crew. Why do you think they are now setting up their own one? Only ten years since the company started, mind. Do not underestimate the influence of what is written there, it is the only place NTAS employees have to communicate among themselves without being identified.
I'm sure such behaviour is beneath you so no doubt when a union is chosen and improved terms and conditions negotiated you will be among the first to refuse to accept your pay rise.
Your management admitted that the JB forum made them aware of just how poorly they communicate with the crew. Why do you think they are now setting up their own one? Only ten years since the company started, mind. Do not underestimate the influence of what is written there, it is the only place NTAS employees have to communicate among themselves without being identified.
I'm sure such behaviour is beneath you so no doubt when a union is chosen and improved terms and conditions negotiated you will be among the first to refuse to accept your pay rise.