Bomber Command Memorial (Merged)
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3D,
I hope I didn't come across as being dismissive of the survivors and their wishes. I agree that they are far more important than the likes of us (for instance), but the scope of who to consider is massive and goes beyond just any one group. Its not only the survivors, but also the surviving relatives of those who died too, who would want to visit. Given their ages, they need to be able to visit somewhere easily and at reasonable cost too. Just considering who will want to visit is a massive task, .
I stand by my vision for the future as being of paramount importance and we overlook it at our peril. Put it next to the A1 (I know you weren't being literal) and in 15 years, it'll be shunted to make way for a Morrisons. None of us would want that.
I hope I didn't come across as being dismissive of the survivors and their wishes. I agree that they are far more important than the likes of us (for instance), but the scope of who to consider is massive and goes beyond just any one group. Its not only the survivors, but also the surviving relatives of those who died too, who would want to visit. Given their ages, they need to be able to visit somewhere easily and at reasonable cost too. Just considering who will want to visit is a massive task, .
I stand by my vision for the future as being of paramount importance and we overlook it at our peril. Put it next to the A1 (I know you weren't being literal) and in 15 years, it'll be shunted to make way for a Morrisons. None of us would want that.
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Report From Notts & Derbys Aircrew Association Meeting
Folks,
As promised to some (either here or on the dedicated forum, where I will post a copy) is the reuslt of my 'straw poll' of the Notts/Derbys Aircrew Association members today.
Firstly, I must state that there were only 16 members present (one had passed away in the last month which kind of brings the whole point of this effort home to us, the younger fraternity) and not all were ex-Bomber Boys.
Nevertheless, after my briefing on our plans/hopes, I asked them for their opinion and their views on location. They were 100% supportive of what we are trying to achieve but did point out that this Bomber Command Memorial does exist and was only unveiled last year:
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.u...ath_270806.htm
There is also a 'Strike Wings Memorial' dedicated to the South Humberside Strike Wings on the seafront at Cleethorpes:
http://raf-lincolnshire.info/northco...esmemorial.htm
And there is a memorial on Plymouth Hoe evidently:
http://www.airscene.org/monument/History.htm
Apart from the Ledger Stone in Lincoln Cathedral, none of these memorials convey the essence of what we are trying to achieve nor are they BC dedicated. The Ledger is not of the magnitude, nor does it 'name names', that we desire.
So, in answer to the 'where' question, I received the following:
Could it be on an ex-bomber base? My response: Yes, but there or at a Group HQ would focus on one particular element and not on the majority. Response acknowledged as sound and sensible logic.
What about the National Memorial Arboretum? My response: That is one of the possible locations but there is a feeling amongst some that a BC Memorial needs to be individually set and in a stand-alone location to give it the impact needed.
When I think of Bomber Command, I think of Lincolnshire! Said one, to which there was a general consensus following this remark that Lincolnshire should be the home of any memorial.
What about a coastal setting? Said I and then explained the debate that we have been having here. There was considerable favour for this idea as it would have a meaning for all crews, no matter their home base, but there was concern about access to it. They understood the concept of Flamborough Head, it's proximity to Carnaby etc
What did you guys use homebound as your coastal fix? I asked. (Sorry about this but it's been said before) - Skegness Pier and that's in Lincolnshire, they chorused!
Their view on Bicester and Swinderby was 'Why? They were never operational Bomber bases!'.
In sum, their view was that what we are trying to achieve is commendable and long overdue. If their vote was to count they would wish to see a memorial either at the NMA or on the Lincolnshire Coast!
Guess, we need a recce of Skeggy Pier, now
!
Foldie
As promised to some (either here or on the dedicated forum, where I will post a copy) is the reuslt of my 'straw poll' of the Notts/Derbys Aircrew Association members today.
Firstly, I must state that there were only 16 members present (one had passed away in the last month which kind of brings the whole point of this effort home to us, the younger fraternity) and not all were ex-Bomber Boys.
Nevertheless, after my briefing on our plans/hopes, I asked them for their opinion and their views on location. They were 100% supportive of what we are trying to achieve but did point out that this Bomber Command Memorial does exist and was only unveiled last year:
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.u...ath_270806.htm
There is also a 'Strike Wings Memorial' dedicated to the South Humberside Strike Wings on the seafront at Cleethorpes:
http://raf-lincolnshire.info/northco...esmemorial.htm
And there is a memorial on Plymouth Hoe evidently:
http://www.airscene.org/monument/History.htm
Apart from the Ledger Stone in Lincoln Cathedral, none of these memorials convey the essence of what we are trying to achieve nor are they BC dedicated. The Ledger is not of the magnitude, nor does it 'name names', that we desire.
So, in answer to the 'where' question, I received the following:
Could it be on an ex-bomber base? My response: Yes, but there or at a Group HQ would focus on one particular element and not on the majority. Response acknowledged as sound and sensible logic.
What about the National Memorial Arboretum? My response: That is one of the possible locations but there is a feeling amongst some that a BC Memorial needs to be individually set and in a stand-alone location to give it the impact needed.
When I think of Bomber Command, I think of Lincolnshire! Said one, to which there was a general consensus following this remark that Lincolnshire should be the home of any memorial.
What about a coastal setting? Said I and then explained the debate that we have been having here. There was considerable favour for this idea as it would have a meaning for all crews, no matter their home base, but there was concern about access to it. They understood the concept of Flamborough Head, it's proximity to Carnaby etc
What did you guys use homebound as your coastal fix? I asked. (Sorry about this but it's been said before) - Skegness Pier and that's in Lincolnshire, they chorused!
Their view on Bicester and Swinderby was 'Why? They were never operational Bomber bases!'.
In sum, their view was that what we are trying to achieve is commendable and long overdue. If their vote was to count they would wish to see a memorial either at the NMA or on the Lincolnshire Coast!
Guess, we need a recce of Skeggy Pier, now
!Foldie
Last edited by foldingwings; 14th Nov 2007 at 14:01.
Thanks for the updates both Al R and foldingwings.
There is indeed a bronze statue of an airman on the Hoe at Plymouth.
Tongue-firmly-in-cheek time, but how long do you believe either Skeggy Pier or even coastal Lincs will be with us? If you are planning a recce, wrap up well, and take a flask - Skegness is probably shut for the winter by now.
There is indeed a bronze statue of an airman on the Hoe at Plymouth.
Tongue-firmly-in-cheek time, but how long do you believe either Skeggy Pier or even coastal Lincs will be with us? If you are planning a recce, wrap up well, and take a flask - Skegness is probably shut for the winter by now.
I rest my case, M'Lud; now, can we stop the East Kirkby/Elvington/Duxford(?!)/Swinderby (actually, it was operational; 50 Sqn, 300 Sqn, 301 Sqn, but more known for recruit training)/Bicester lobbies??
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.. and you made it well.
Can we continue to rely on input like that, either here or at the site? I hope so.
http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforu...erboys&act=idx
Can we continue to rely on input like that, either here or at the site? I hope so.
http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforu...erboys&act=idx
Folding Wings, great effort Sir, well done. The more input like that from informed and involved people such as ACA the better. Let's have lots more!
Snapper, AFAIK no one on this thread is 'lobbying' for anywhere. We are going through a process of reviewing possible sites for a Bomber Command Memorial outside London (the capital can wait its turn). The primary reason that we are doing this is because BCA have told Al that when we have proposals to consider then they will do just that, hopefully by ballot. Because we have just got enthusiastic over this issue is no reason for them to go into hyper-drive, I imagine that each year for the last 60 plus years, someone has approached them with exactly the same brainwave, and other than the handful of discreet memorials mentioned the result has been zilch. If I was in the BCA I think that would be my reaction as well, so it is up to us to present them with the best short list possible. That means getting as many ideas as possible, a PPRune speciality, and from RAFA, ACA, in fact anyone that has an interest. That is why we have the thread running here as well as the bomberboys site. This will be a long term project which has only just begun, but will eventually end in success, I am sure. So the idea isn't to lobby and to win. It isn't to rubbish other's ideas for the sake of it. It is to put up a suggestion, make the best case you can, and acknowledge any obvious drawbacks. Emotive language like "Theme Parks" is unhelpful. Let us agree that we all want a fitting and impressive memorial, in a fitting and impressive setting to do justice to the sacrifice of so many brave Bomber Command members. No need for 'banter' or whatever gratuitous rudeness and abrasiveness passes for these days, let's leave that aside as totally inappropriate for this cause.
PS Snapper I began by addressing you, but the rant at the end was for all, including myself, so nothing personal!
rest my case, M'Lud; now, can we stop the East Kirkby/Elvington/Duxford(?!)/Swinderby (actually, it was operational; 50 Sqn, 300 Sqn, 301 Sqn, but more known for recruit training)/Bicester lobbies??
PS Snapper I began by addressing you, but the rant at the end was for all, including myself, so nothing personal!
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1. .....there was a general consensus that Lincolnshire should be the home of any memorial.
2. There was considerable favour for (a coastal location) ..... but there was concern about access to it.
3. If their vote was to count they would wish to see a memorial either at the NMA or on the Lincolnshire Coast!
Foldingwings, Re the Notts/Derbys Aircrew Association.
How'd you get 1 and 2 to make 3.
2. There was considerable favour for (a coastal location) ..... but there was concern about access to it.
3. If their vote was to count they would wish to see a memorial either at the NMA or on the Lincolnshire Coast!
Foldingwings, Re the Notts/Derbys Aircrew Association.
How'd you get 1 and 2 to make 3.
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Snapper,
Yes, Swinderby was operational between 1940 and 41 with 300 and 301 (Polish) Sqns and 50 (Canadian) Sqn in 1942 but, for a significant period, was closed whilst a tarmac runway was put in and thence became a Bomber Command Training Unit. It did not take part in the Bomber Offensive of 1945.
Forget,
I'm only the messenger and I have honestly quoted their responses.
So, to answer your question Forget, they would consider either the NMA or somewhere on the Lincolnshire coast as the most appropriate. In other words, some plumped for NMA and some for the Lincolnshire coast.
Foldie
Yes, Swinderby was operational between 1940 and 41 with 300 and 301 (Polish) Sqns and 50 (Canadian) Sqn in 1942 but, for a significant period, was closed whilst a tarmac runway was put in and thence became a Bomber Command Training Unit. It did not take part in the Bomber Offensive of 1945.
Forget,
I'm only the messenger and I have honestly quoted their responses.
So, in answer to the 'where' question, I received the following:
Could it be on an ex-bomber base? My response: Yes, but there or at a Group HQ would focus on one particular element and not on the majority. Response acknowledged as sound and sensible logic.
What about the National Memorial Arboretum? My response: That is one of the possible locations but there is a feeling amongst some that a BC Memorial needs to be individually set and in a stand-alone location to give it the impact needed.
When I think of Bomber Command, I think of Lincolnshire! Said one, to which there was a general consensus following this remark that Lincolnshire should be the home of any memorial.
What about a coastal setting? Said I and then explained the debate that we have been having here. There was considerable favour for this idea as it would have a meaning for all crews, no matter their home base, but there was concern about access to it. They understood the concept of Flamborough Head, it's proximity to Carnaby etc
What did you guys use homebound as your coastal fix? I asked. (Sorry about this but it's been said before) - Skegness Pier and that's in Lincolnshire, they chorused!
Their view on Bicester and Swinderby was 'Why? They were never operational Bomber bases!'.
Could it be on an ex-bomber base? My response: Yes, but there or at a Group HQ would focus on one particular element and not on the majority. Response acknowledged as sound and sensible logic.
What about the National Memorial Arboretum? My response: That is one of the possible locations but there is a feeling amongst some that a BC Memorial needs to be individually set and in a stand-alone location to give it the impact needed.
When I think of Bomber Command, I think of Lincolnshire! Said one, to which there was a general consensus following this remark that Lincolnshire should be the home of any memorial.
What about a coastal setting? Said I and then explained the debate that we have been having here. There was considerable favour for this idea as it would have a meaning for all crews, no matter their home base, but there was concern about access to it. They understood the concept of Flamborough Head, it's proximity to Carnaby etc
What did you guys use homebound as your coastal fix? I asked. (Sorry about this but it's been said before) - Skegness Pier and that's in Lincolnshire, they chorused!
Their view on Bicester and Swinderby was 'Why? They were never operational Bomber bases!'.
Foldie
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Hi
RE Memorial 'Forgets' outline seems to be on the button for type/style but how to include the other minorities - Poles, Czechs, Free French in particular but then the Dutch, Norwegians and others???
As for location, I would suggest Lincolnshire despite being a Yorkshireman!!!
My Dad (died 2001 and yes born in Lancashire!!!) was RAFVR A/G, he ended up in Italy - 205 Group, 31/34 SAAF always reckoned he had a good war:
a)he survived
b) King George gave him a commission
Whenever he talked about times past (only rarely) and they included Warsaw '44, a place called PLOESTI (admittedly by night) and BUDA & PEST (to him two places separated by a river full of FLAK ships), he always said that he was lucky to have avoided 'the killing fields of Lincolnshire' and yes I remember that phrase whilst I was at school in the sixties;
He also on occaision used to mumble about not being entitled to the Air Crew Europe Star - but that's another story
PZU - Out of Africa
RE Memorial 'Forgets' outline seems to be on the button for type/style but how to include the other minorities - Poles, Czechs, Free French in particular but then the Dutch, Norwegians and others???
As for location, I would suggest Lincolnshire despite being a Yorkshireman!!!
My Dad (died 2001 and yes born in Lancashire!!!) was RAFVR A/G, he ended up in Italy - 205 Group, 31/34 SAAF always reckoned he had a good war:
a)he survived
b) King George gave him a commission
Whenever he talked about times past (only rarely) and they included Warsaw '44, a place called PLOESTI (admittedly by night) and BUDA & PEST (to him two places separated by a river full of FLAK ships), he always said that he was lucky to have avoided 'the killing fields of Lincolnshire' and yes I remember that phrase whilst I was at school in the sixties;
He also on occaision used to mumble about not being entitled to the Air Crew Europe Star - but that's another story
PZU - Out of Africa
Snapper, I put your name at the front to ascribe the quote to you. I did so to emphasise my plea that far from restricting pros and cons for various locations being expressed we should seek as much input as possible. If in my eagerness to do so I offended my own strictures against gratuitous rudeness and abrasiveness then I apologise completely. I obviously lose points for clarity and layout at the very least!
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Now here's a bit of interesting trivia! East Kirkby is spot on the Prime Meridian. A Memorial here could be half in the East and half in the West.
That'd cover RCAF and West Indian guys one side, us in the middle, and RAAF, RNZAF and SAAF on t'other.
That'd cover RCAF and West Indian guys one side, us in the middle, and RAAF, RNZAF and SAAF on t'other.
Last edited by forget; 15th Nov 2007 at 13:23.
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East Kirkby.
(I posted this on the 'Memorial' Forum but comments from here would be useful. 
)
Assuming that Fred and Harold are amenable this is how East Kirkby might work. And it would most certainly be in good hands - forever. Lincolnshire County Council would see to that, I’m sure.
Swinderby was looking attractive to me - but East Kirkby has now easily overtaken it. (I’ll declare a minor personal interest, Uncle Arthur flew from East Kirkby (back every time) with 630 Squadron, sat on top of a Lanc.)
How did the East Kirkby Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre begin?
This is a privately owned and run Museum and was set up by two farming Brothers, Fred and Harold Panton. It has been built up as a memorial to Bomber Command and primarily as a tribute to their eldest brother Christopher Whitton Panton; who was shot down and killed on a bomber raid over Nuremberg on 30th/31st March 1944. For a short time after the war there was interest from the Brothers to visit their Brothers grave in Germany, but their Father denied them the chance as he wanted nothing more to do with the war. Untill, in the 1970's Mr Panton called Fred over and told him to 'get off to Germany and bring me a photograph of Chrisy's grave' which of course Fred did as soon as he could. This reignited Fred's interest in the War and when NX611 came up for sale it was eventually purchased by the Brothers, brought to their land at East Kirkby. Even though they had planned to keep it only for their private collection it was suggested that they should make it into an exhibit for the public and this Museum was set up with the Lancaster and Control tower as its centre piece. The Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre was then opened in 1988.
) Assuming that Fred and Harold are amenable this is how East Kirkby might work. And it would most certainly be in good hands - forever. Lincolnshire County Council would see to that, I’m sure.
Swinderby was looking attractive to me - but East Kirkby has now easily overtaken it. (I’ll declare a minor personal interest, Uncle Arthur flew from East Kirkby (back every time) with 630 Squadron, sat on top of a Lanc.)
How did the East Kirkby Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre begin?
This is a privately owned and run Museum and was set up by two farming Brothers, Fred and Harold Panton. It has been built up as a memorial to Bomber Command and primarily as a tribute to their eldest brother Christopher Whitton Panton; who was shot down and killed on a bomber raid over Nuremberg on 30th/31st March 1944. For a short time after the war there was interest from the Brothers to visit their Brothers grave in Germany, but their Father denied them the chance as he wanted nothing more to do with the war. Untill, in the 1970's Mr Panton called Fred over and told him to 'get off to Germany and bring me a photograph of Chrisy's grave' which of course Fred did as soon as he could. This reignited Fred's interest in the War and when NX611 came up for sale it was eventually purchased by the Brothers, brought to their land at East Kirkby. Even though they had planned to keep it only for their private collection it was suggested that they should make it into an exhibit for the public and this Museum was set up with the Lancaster and Control tower as its centre piece. The Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre was then opened in 1988.
Last edited by forget; 26th Nov 2007 at 11:15.
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Campaign Medal For Bomber Command
Well duly signed Folding Wings, but I fear this campaign is as flawed as the previous one. A campaign medal is defined by date and geography, ie exact dates for start and finish, not simply the years, and geographical extent, ie the skies over Germany for example. Operational duties could include a typist at High Wycombe and 1946, where would that relate to? If the dates had been the start and end of the European War, and the area defined as the skies of German occupied Europe it might qualify as a campaign warranting the award of a Campaign Medal. That of course would be earned only by aircrew, which I suspect is not the intention of this petition, but in any case I cannot see how it can succeed.
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Petition signed. 993 sigs now. Still pathetic that there is no memorial after 60 years.
I was privileged to meet some former Bomber Command air crew at Australian War Memorial, Air War History Conference in November 2005. It was held to celebrate the return to the Memorial of Lancaster G-George and the 60th anniversary of Battle of Berlin.
There were/are such brave men, most were no more than boys when they went out night after night on missions.
God bless them.
I was privileged to meet some former Bomber Command air crew at Australian War Memorial, Air War History Conference in November 2005. It was held to celebrate the return to the Memorial of Lancaster G-George and the 60th anniversary of Battle of Berlin.
There were/are such brave men, most were no more than boys when they went out night after night on missions.
God bless them.