Bomber Command Memorial (Merged)

[Hugh Spencer]

Bomber Command Memorial

Can I just come in and congratulate you all on your commitment to seeing this memorial installed somewhere. I have no strong views on this but perhaps I am leaning towards Bomber County. As some of you know, I was a wireless operator in Lancasters in 1945, flying from Skellingthorpe, Lincolnshire. Keep up the pressure but I am beginning to feel that so many of the public don't know what sacrifices my friends made. Is it possible to get the help of some publicity organisation to oversee all of this? Cheers, Hugh.

[snapper41]

Chug & Forget

Sorry - disagree. It would be wrong to single out Lincs, Yorks or Cambs as the most 'deserving' county. Plus, disused stations tend to have their own memorials anyway. I go back to my argument for the National Memorial Arboretum; it's neutral ground, it is a focus for national remembrance, it ensures that a memorial would be looked after, and it's in the public eye. But, our opinions really don't count - those of the Old Lags do; where do they want it?

[Chugalug2]

Hello Hugh, delighted as ever to get your unique and invaluable input. You have indeed put your finger on the nub of the issue. Publicity! We have to sway public opinion and inform them of the terrible cost paid on their behalf by those who did not survive. The figures are shocking and must be known by everyone. As yet they are not. We must ensure that they are.

[Hugh Spencer]

Bomber Command Memorial

Hi Chugalug,
What about this for the Memorial? At least it may prompt discussion. A framework of a true size four engined bomber with the seven crew members in their positions carrying out their allotted tasks. That would give a true representation of what it was like, to a limited extent.

[Chugalug2]

Sort of like the Eagle comic centre page cutaway pictures, Hugh? I can almost see the Lanc one on my bedroom wall, when I was a boy I hasten to add! Just as you describe with everyone manning their positions, and indeed showing the large and well stocked bomb bay! I'm sure that could be represented in bas relief on a frieze, or did you have something more three dimensional in mind? I suspect that it will need a huge amount of such suggestions so that the eventual artist/ designer/ landscaper etc can trawl through them and create the story or theme of a memorial. Now that we seem to be getting away from simple statues, memorial crosses, etc, and moving to walls of honour, friezes and even full scale replicas, the result can be truly impressive.
Have you seen either or both BoB memorials Hugh? Do you think that the choice of a London one and another on location, or at the National Memorial site as Snapper suggests, would be the answer, or simply go for one? My concern is that if it is not readily accessible, especially for the survivors, it will tend to languish unvisited by many except on special dates. Having said that, if there be only one, like you I would go for somewhere in 'Bomber country'.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Chugs:

I'd suggest that starting with publicity is putting the cart before the horse and would be a waste of resources. The first thing needed is a detailed plan of action, (with flexibility built in). Once that has been finalized then you would ramp up the publicity in phases because in each phase of the project you will be "aiming" the message at different constituencies. You're going to have limited resources - use them wisely...

Hugh:

Your suggestion for the memorial is probably one of the most inspirational ideas I have ever heard... I never use this word, ever, but it is truly awesome...

[snapper41]

I too, like Hugh's suggestion. There is a similar one for the armoured regiments outside the Old War Office Building (opposite Main Building), showing a tank crew:

http://www.commissionaportrait.com/a...olio.asp?id=98

I doubt a BC memorial could run to a full-size Lanc, though!

[Roland Pulfrew]

I guess I am copying a bit when I suggest something similar to the RTR one. A lifesize bronze of a group of aircrew (7 crew on a Lanc wasn't it? Or 8 on the ABC version?) stood with leather helmets and 'chutes in hand, wearing Irvine flying jackets, trousers and boots etc

Something like this:



Or this:



Preferably somewhere around Whitehall?

[Chugalug2]

I'd suggest that starting with publicity is putting the cart before the horse and would be a waste of resources.

All depends on which cart and which horse, surely AA? Like Hugh, I am very concerned about the general lack of knowledge of the Bombing Campaign, and in particular of the loss rate, second only to the U-boat crews. A whole generation has been raised to believe that this was a costly yet fruitless effort based on revenge and malice, a view shared by many of their elders. Before any memorial campaign can hope to get the political and public support required that view has to change drastically. As Al R says there is a parallel here with the present situation, where the losses sustained in carrying out the policies of the government should be acknowledged and honoured, whatever the feelings be about the policies themselves. If citizens of the USA can make that clear distinction then so should those of the UK. The publicity that Hugh and I speak of is of the bombing campaign itself and of the 55,700 who died conducting it rather than of their memorial(s). There has been more than sufficient time elapse to view the effectiveness of this campaign in the cold light of day, but for my money it was best summed up by Albert Speer, Reich Minister for War Production, with a vested interest in belittling it. “…it opened up a second front long before the invasion of Europe….every square metre of our territory became a front line.” It is my firm belief that, in general, the policy was right and given the limitations that it had, principally those of navigation and crew experience, contributed greatly to our victory by denying the enemy the resources he needed for his.

[forget]

Interesting exercise; I know it’s very early days, but this is what I came up with. Hugh, you and your mates are I/C here. Comments please. Ex Bomber myself, but a little after you.

I have to tell you – the idea draws shamelessly on the international acclaim, and corrected failures, of the Vietnam Memorial Wall, DC. Coincidentally,58,000 names versus 56,000 for Bomber Command. (By the way, for it to work, it really has to be in Lincolnshire.)

-------------------------------------

In essence, the Memorial is dominated by a black granite wall of approximately 250 feet length and a height of 10 feet. Carved into this granite are the names of all Bomber Command aircrew who died during the conflict. At one end of the wall a vertical plinth is topped by an RAF eagle finished in gold leaf.

At the other end a group of seven bronze castings are positioned. These castings depict a typical, generic, bomber crew. The figures are standing around casually, dressed in detailed WWII flying suits and carrying the paraphernalia of an imminent operation. Against the wall is a bronze ladder. One of the figures is standing on the bottom rung. At the top of the ladder a rectangular hole is cut into the granite representing the entry door to a Bomber Command aircraft.The symbolism being, of course, that the crew will soon enter the wall - never to return - but their names will be there forever.

The figures are slightly larger than life size and are positioned such that visitors may walk amongst them.

The concourse in front of the wall is coarse concrete representing the runway from which they will shortly leave.

Against the wall, and to prevent it ever being in darkness, are embedded modern day taxiway edge lights directing white light onto the wall.

Details of the bronze figures may include shoulder flashes showing the Commonwealth countries from which crews came.

Work In Progress.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Work In Progress.

That is work in progress? I can already picture it. Gets my vote now!!

[LowNSlow]

forget that sounds perfect. Just as a reminder of the reasons why such a memorial is required:

Total Bomber Command losses by the end of the War were as follows

Avro Lancaster 4171
Handly Page Halifax 2627
Vickers Wellington 1970
Short Stirling 891
Bristol Blenheim 745
Handly Page Hampden 743
De Havilland Mosquito 533
Armstrong Whitworth Whitley 509
Fairy Battle 217
Avro Manchester 104
Boston 71
Ventura 53
Fortress 24
Mitchell 20
Lysander* 16
Anson 12
Hudson* 8
Liberator 6
Hereford 2
Warwick 2
Beaufighter 1
Master 1
Oxford 1

* SOE Operations


Here is a great site for tracing particular aircraft

http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/

[forget]

Thank you Roland and LowNSlow. . My Number 2 son has a design company in Dubai and, if the thoughts are that this is worth working on further, he's said he can put together a professional artist's rendering of the whole thing. Maybe even 360 interactive, if that's what you call it. It may well be superceded by other ideas - but at least it's a starting point for AI R and others. We'll see what the consensus is. I don't want to waste his time on a non starter.

[3D CAM]

Forget.
That memorial sounds just the job, BZ.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Chugs:

Which cart and horse is absolutely correct as are the subsequent constituencies. My thinking is the result of working for a non-profit for many years. If you go ahead from the offset trying to alter the national awareness of the issue of what BC did etc. you force yourself into a national campaign. National campaigns cost resources. If you end up not intending to try to place the memorial in London, (think about the horrendous cost if land etc. has to be purchased), then the three counties mentioned would be a potential location and would be where one would campaign to change the awareness - which would be easier due to the natural attachment many still feel for BC and also cost a lot less to mount. In this example the larger campaign can be initiated after the memorial is under construction - when you have a better idea of your fiscal assets.

Just some thoughts... and why I think the publicity is the cart and the planning is the horse...

[snapper41]

Oh dear...I guess I'm not going to be popular, but the design sounds a bit...OTT to me. Memorials should be (IMHO) simple yet striking. I like the idea of the bronze effigies of the crew, but why not leave it there, with the Bomber Command badge (plus those of the Groups within it?) carved into the base?

[foldingwings]

Well, I've never thrown a snowball that's gathered such speed and grown to such a size before!

Please understand this is not my petition, I just advertised it to people I thought might care - got that right!

By the way, the petition has stagnated in the mid-300s, so don't look for another Ashsted moment quite yet!

I've read the majority of the detail of what has been discussed since the thread expanded and I commend the enthusiasm and may have some time available to assist with any work planned. However, we must not misunderstand just how much of an uphill struggle the task will be and all the PC-thought police and 'bleeding heart' apologists that we will not only have to convince but also pacify.

I am involved with my local AirCrew Association (ACA), all of whom are of a more senior generation to me and most of whom are 'Bomber Boys', so I will take a sounding of their 'location view' when I meet with them in 2 weeks time.

You too (if you qualify, which is most of you) could join the ACA (and get involved with your local branch) and use their weight to promote the issue - Chris Coville is the current President and many stars and ex-Chiefs populate the top end. Indeed, Bomber Harris himself was President from 1977-1984! So the ACA has 'pulling power' if we need it and the weight to influence if need be. You'll find details at:

http://www.aircrew.org.uk

Start thinking Lottery Grants, likely philanthropists etc 'cos this ain't going to be cheap'.

Now to location:

There used to be a RAF memorial just off the old A1 (LHS heading North) by Peterborough (Nelson's column type with Eagle on the top) that always caught my eye when I drove home on leave to Scotland. It's gone now or the road has moved but think of the possibilities if a piece of land could be obtained on the A1 at the Lincs/Notts/Yorks border with a 'bloody hell, mother, look at that' moment as you approached it from both north and south - now that would be a fitting memorial.

However, my endstop would be that it would be an absolute politically hot potato, a non-starter and a waste of our heartbeats to struggle against the beaurocrats and condemners to get it into London (where most of the PC-thought police and 'bleeding heart' apologists live/work and hold sway). Frankly, they don't deserve it. Lincolnshire folk (even today) know what it was like in the 40s and realise just how much sacrifice the young men who lived within their communities gave. Indeed, most adults in Lincolnshire today, who are over 40, have experienced the presence of Bomber Command in the modern era (Cold War etc) - give it to Lincolnshire!

Foldie

[3D CAM]

Foldingwings.
Just a small point re. your last post.
The memorial you mention on the A1 was, if my fading memory is correct, actually something to do with Polish? soldiers from even before the period we are discussing here. Not RAF. I am more than willing to be corrected on this but I am ashamed to admit that I actually stopped once to look at it but cannot actually remember the details.( Not ashamed of stopping, but of bad memory!)
Sorry for the slight thread creep.

[forget]

Sorry guys, The A1 memorial was actually to remember the French prisoners of the Napoleonic wars who died in the prison camp at Norman Cross. The bronze eagle was nicked years ago by pikeys. A new one was dedicated a couple of years ago on the A15, just East of Norman Cross. The new one is wired.

Here you are - http://www.lhi.org.uk/projects_direc...eal/index.html

[Chugalug2]

the publicity is the cart and the planning is the horse...

Very well put, AA, and point taken. So much to learn, so little time!
Chug