Bomber Command Memorial (Merged)

[Chugalug2]

Anzul, you have the nub of it when you talk of boys. Your Grandfather and his comrades were essentially boys, and 55,573 of them remained just that, for “They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old.”
Your post reminds us of what an international effort the WW2 Bomber Command campaign was involving the British, Dominions, Colonies, enslaved nations of Europe, and others who were prepared to volunteer, for all were volunteers, to risk their lives in hitting back at and subduing the Nazi tyranny in order to ensure ultimate victory. They were, and still are, the ones who did, in contrast to the ones who merely talked and are still chattering to this day. We will always have those amongst us who will question Dresden, want to know which way the Belgrano was steaming when sunk, query the need to use atomic bombs to finally bring to an end the slaughter-house of WW2 in which some 50 million died. Their philosophy seems to be that wars are better lost if they cannot be fought in what they would perceive to be a morally up right way. Well… NEWSFLASH! All War is Immoral, and the only moral approach to war is to finish it ASAP. That was Harris’s point that Al R reminds us of above. 63 years later is it not time to accede to his point and pay proper and full tribute to those very brave young men who paved the way to Victory?
We have memorials to Women in WW2, to the Dominions, even to Animals who died. There is something very British, and not in the nicest sense, that there is no National Memorial to 55,573 Bomber Command Aircrew, out of a total strength of some 125,000, who died that we should prevail. This is not just a good thing to do, it is the right thing to do, and we should feel shame that it is yet to be done.

[S'land]

Chugalug2:

Very well put.

[Chugalug2]

Thanks S'land, it seems that you, Hugh Spencer, PPRuNe Pop, PKPF68-78, 411A, anzul, Al R and I share common ground on this. Postings prior refer to the thread’s previous existence on Military Aircrew. Now I suspect that many more share our sentiments, but if they don't post we can't be sure. With the obstruction that caused previous attempts to founder still possible, nothing can be taken for granted. Today is the 90th anniversary of the Founding of the RAF. If there was one premise on which it was based it was the fervent belief in an Independent Air Force and the effectiveness of Strategic Bombing. That belief was nurtured in the lean inter war years and came to fruition in the Strategic Bombing Offensive from the first day to the last of Bomber Command's Campaign in WW2. Of course the inevitable progress forecast by its proponents turned out instead to be a bloody and costly business for friend and foe alike. All the more reason to give thanks for the selfless sacrifice of those who paid that cost. The cream of a generation was snuffed out but, as with their fathers before them, it paved the way to victory. That victory liberated Europe as well as saving this country from becoming the vassal of an arbitrary and evil dictatorship. There was nothing inevitable in that victory right up to the last day, hence the driven duty to risk their lives night after night on what emerged as almost a 50/50 chance of surviving when those still in training are stripped out of the final figures. We need to acknowledge this while the survivors are still with us. We need to acknowledge this as a nation. We need to acknowledge this with a National Memorial. We need to acknowledge this by thinking this through for ourselves rather than regurgitating someone else's thoughts garnered from 'Peace Studies'. If my persistence irritates then upbraid me or ignore me as you wish, I only ask that you do not ignore this issue, for upon it rests what residual honour this country has, or hasn't. Please sign the petition. Please post your thoughts.

[pilot's daughter]

Bomber Command Campaign Medal

I have signed the petition for a memorial to Bomber Command and would like to draw attention to a petition I have just put online to obtain a campaign medal for Bomber Command. Land Army, Bevan Boys etc have their recognition (and rightly so) but nothing is forthcoming for the brave lads at the very point of sharp end. They were ALL volunteers and 55,000 lost their lives. There are still 30,000 of these men still alive (sadly not my father, a double DFC, who died last year aged 87) and deserve recognition before it is too late. Please sign - here is the link: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ForgottenRAF/. Thanks.

[Chugalug2]

pilot's daughter, first a very warm welcome to PPRuNe and to this thread. I am sorry that your post has sat on the Aviation, History and Nostalgia Forum for a week without an answer. Given that you tell us that you are the proud (clearly!) daughter of a double DFC Bomber Command Pilot of WW2 one would have hoped for some interest in what you have to say. Perhaps if you had posted pictures of your father's aircraft or airfield you would have evinced a response (heavy irony there guys!). If it is of any consolation I too have been almost equally unable to get any dialogue going here. I deliberately withheld answering you until now in the forlorn hope that someone else might do so. Some hope! Let me at least thank you for supporting the petition behind this thread and in return express my support for your own efforts to get a campaign medal for those who served in Bomber Command in WW2. The preamble to your petition calls for a medal to be awarded to all members of Bomber Command, whereas the detail speaks of the 55,000 aircrew who died. If you want a campaign medal for BC aircrew who flew offensive operations in Europe in WW2 then I agree entirely. A 'Bomber Command' medal (as I believe Harris wanted) is entirely different and would not be compatible with UK practice. A campaign has to be defined by time (no problem) and place, in this case the skies between the bases and the enemy heartland. thus all but aircrew would be excluded. It would be of interest to know if your father expressed his feelings about that. This site (though not this forum!) has discussed this topic before, in support of a similar petition that was rejected by the PM's office, as was every such call since the war. No matter, as you remind us many thousands of these brave men are still with us and we must keep trying on their behalf. Like your father I feel anger that such heroism and dedication to duty has been held in such low regard since 1945 as something best forgotten. Such attitudes are a comment on those who hold them rather than the remarkable brave young (so young) men who frustrated the 'lights of perverted science' that would otherwise have enabled the Nazi War Machine to prevail, by going out night after night until they in turn joined the 55,000 that 'grow not old'. Give them their National Memorial and give them a Campaign Medal!

[Al R]

Welcome PD, I'd echo Chugger's sentiments but possibly in not such an old crachety way (he's waiting for his new zimmer you know and the cabin fever has set in... ).

I have come to the conclusion that those No10 petitions are a retrostep. The g'ment received millions of motorists registering dismay about Pay as you Drive and they simply decided to forge ahead. Conversely, if a petition receives little support (I have signed to yours by the way, with a slight tweak), the g'ment is justified in ignoring it. Its opium for the masses, thats all. But what to do? As Chuggers implies, you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink. This thread here, is a little like the curtains in the spare bedroom - we see them, but do we ever actually notice and remember them?

I have spoken with Chuggers about this. I am of a definite opinion as to how best proceed (Chuggers.. I haven't forgotten your e-mail - I like to consider a response first!), and I would love to have time on my hands or the means to be able to focus properly on this, but my mortgage company continues to conspire against me. Your post has my full agreement and your dad has my admiration, respect and my gratitude.

I just wish I had the time right now, to do the rhetoric justice.

Al.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Chuggers and Al,

Couldn't agree more. I have been otherwise engaged but am steadily getting more time to this. I agree about the petitions too. They get Brownie points for setting it up and more when they answer i.e the road charges, and then proceed with two fingers and forget that 2m people don't like it. Why some of these people think they know what we want is beyond me. They don't.

However, this week gave me another setback when a brother of mine died on Wednesday of last week. The funeral is this coming Friday but when the weekend gets out of the way I will be ready to see what we can do.

PPP

[Al R]

Pop,

This is going to sound crass (I don't mean it to), but a prog on TV tonight revolved around fraternal loss and it made me think about my little bro (still around). I am very sorry for your loss.

[Chugalug2]

PPRuNe Pop, so sorry to hear of your loss. I can only echo Al's sentiments. As to domestic issues here at PPRuNe, there's plenty of time for those. They and we can wait, you have other more important things to occupy yourself with. I hope that there are others close to you more able than we are to console you. My sincerest condolences.
Chug

[PPRuNe Pop]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your kind thoughts. Most kind of you.

PPP

[Millski]

Jackson

One of my best mates farther was with Bomber command, Sqd leader Colin Jackson DFC Flew Halifax's, he is 94 and still very much alive.
He flew with Special forces he is a bloody good bloke, and made me laugh when he told me the story that on arrivng back to Melbourne Aus Qantas offered him a job and he asked what they wanted him to fly and he said I not flying something that small. He never flew again.
Cheers Millski

[Al R]

An interesting read.

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/da...ave.3925149.jp

[Chugalug2]

Impressive chap, Derrick Crampin, but then again he hails from an impressive generation. It should not be up to an 84 year old to fight for the recognition that the Bomber Offensive so richly deserves. It should be a given, he and his colleagues both living and dead should be venerated by we of later generations that owe everything to them. That they're not, and he has to plead his case is not a comment on him, his mates, Harris or Bomber Command but on us. Shame on us that 63 years after the event such enormous sacrifice and courage is sneered at by those faced with no more danger than crossing the road. We are not worthy of such men. Perhaps they should not have bothered? Nicht Wahr? Give them their Bomber Campaign Medal, give them a Bomber Command National Memorial, end this national shame!

[bc_heritage]

Yes, a very interesting article Al, and yes indeed Chuggers to everything you have said! A National Memorial and Medal should have been done years ago. I have to say, the medal issue has been touched upon in the Flypast Historic Aviation Forum on a former attempt.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...ighlight=medal

A Bomber Command Medal is a fantastic idea, but I overwhelming believe a National Memorial in London and in the country, like the Fighter Boys have, is a very real must, and is so, so long overdue.

[bc_heritage]

Get out there and "Do"!

Sorry, I seem to be on a role.....Having a look at the past posts here, there seemed to be much excitement about a BC Memorial somewhere peaceful in a country setting, and whatever happens in London, don't let the want for a second Memorial in a secluded part of our wonderful countryside be forgotten. Fighter Command have this set up, so it is a requirement for Bomber Command! Get out there, and get doing! It is not good sitting on ones hands, you have to fight for the cause these days, and it takes time, patience and much personal sacrifice, but it is always for the greater cause, therefore ALWAYS worth the effort. A Catalayst is what you all are!

There are many very knowledgeable people doing things in there bedrooms and garden sheds,....but work needs to be focused on the GREATER CAUSE, as well as the personal types of FANTASTIC physical and research projects that are going on out there. Repeating myself constantly, those of RAF Bomber Command must have the recognition they very rightly deserve. It is up to all as enthusiatic individuals, whether we belong to a Group or Association, or doing something in the shed, it is to shout for the cause NOW, instead of whinging at each other about this and that. There is only one way, and that is TO GET OUT THERE AND DO!! Forget the crap, get organised and get doing.

Sunday Morning Rant over...head down and I'm running! :-)

[Chugalug2]

Well said, BCH! I am afraid I have already been brought to task for castigating the seeming indifference to this thread, but I am entirely in agreement with you and so will continue unabashed. This medium is very powerful, and this site has achieved much to be proud of. Mr Pun VC allowed into this country thanks to a 180 by HMG, SSAFFA house serving families of patients at Headley Court allowed after 180 by planning committee, ESF fitted to RAF Hercules fleet after 180 by MOD after 40 years without, etc. Those 180's didn't happen by chance but by continuous unrelenting pressure, much of it from PPRuNe. Admittedly those campaigns ran on another forum to this, but if the provision of a national Bomber Command Memorial isn't the business of a Forum based on Aviation history, I can't think what is. The reverse side of this medium is a tendency for it to become an end in itself. The constant exchange of data, pictures, stories etc is fine, but if the subject of all that posting, the physical reminders of the Heritage itself, are slipping away by neglect then eventually the data, pictures and stories will follow suit. We surely owe it to the past generation that made this sacrifice, and the future ones to remind them of it, to preserve existing Heritage of this mighty struggle and to place within it a focus of Remembrance to those who died that we might live in Freedom.

[S'land]

Chugalug2:

I could not agree more with what you say. However, since moving over to the history and nostalgia forum the thread seems to have lost a bit of momentum. I don't know what can be done to get more support for a memorial for Bomber Command. I have sent the link for the petition to everyone I know who is eligible to sign. One or two have come back to say that they have signed, another brought up the old bullwash about Dresden while the rest seem totally indifferent.

If we are not careful this apathy will kill the project.

For me this is not a case of having relatives who were in Bomber Command, traditionally all of my family have been Army, with only one uncle going into the RN and one into the RAF (Fighters). For me it is a point of moral justice that we should have a memorial.

I have the freedom to sit in a foreign country and live in peace because of what these boys did. My generation and the younger generations have the freedoms that we have only because of the sacrifice that my parent's generation made. Why should we not honour a significant part of that generation?

[Chugalug2]

S'land once again we are of one mind it would seem. Like you I have no personal connections with Bomber Command, my father died of having been a POW of the Japanese for over three years. He was a bombardier in a TA RA LAA battery, though if he ever managed to fire his bofors in anger before they were overrun and captured in Java I doubt it. So other than my own service in the RAF (MRT Hastings and Hercules) nothing to do with Bomber Command. So what? As you say this is a clear issue of right and wrong. Like all such issues people should have a clear moral view of their own take on this. Its no good having a vague feeling that 'carpet bombing' that kills innocent civilians is wrong, war is wrong.. endex! If these men had not gone out night after night Speer could have ramped up production to overwhelm the Red Army at Kursk in not only quality but quantity. Goering could have released the 1,000,000 men of the Luftwaffe fighter squadrons and flak batteries to attain air superiority on the Eastern and Western fronts. The former would have turned back the Red Army, the latter would have meant that Eisenhower's prepared speech following a repulse on D-Day would have been aired by the BBC. Whatever the yabooh about tactics, targets, techniques, etc, 55,573 men should be properly commemorated, and the duty done by 125,000 properly acknowledged. The first wth a memorial, the second with a medal. That some thin lipped Socialist politicians and academics thought different in 1945 is a comment on them. They did not fly the missions!
As to this Forum and this Thread, that is for our Moderators to decide. I would say this though that if it is removed from this forum for no other reason than the seeming indifference to it, then that in turn is a comment on those who post here (or rather don't!). Harsh, cruel? In all honesty I don't think that we know the meaning of the words these days!

[Al R]

I've read the most recent few threads with interest. If I might, let me address the issue of inertia setting in.

There is little point in campaigning for a stone plinth. Thats easily gettable. What HAS to be considered first, is where this project is going to be in 100 or 200 years. In other words, what is the vision for it.. the truly grand vision, and where does its role (not only that of BC) lie? What's the point in placing a beautiful memorial somewhere now, if in 40 years time, it'll be looked upon with something as prosaic and as detached that we might look upon something designed to mark the Boer War, or fighting in The Crimea? It'll just be another chunk of stone. We have the advantage of seeing where putting up a memorial for its own sake runs into problems, and we go down that route at our peril. If we aren't mindful of it, then the act of remembering and giving thanks to the 55,000 men and women will be just a munch sized, politically acceptable interlude which might make us feel worthy now, but which might not best serve the big interests.

I don't mean that to be snidy and I know I'm not even a Johnny come Lately, just a sideliner.. so please don't think that, and while I waffle away, I know that out there, people are doing REAL stuff. It might be that I'm not aware of the whole picture.. but I certainly think that the memorial itself is far more achievable, if its done as a means to an end, and not the end itself. I do think that Operation Bisto is a fight worth fighting, and I doff my cap to the lads who are currently fighting that particular one. Civvies too, and I don't mean that in anything other than awe - WHAT an effort (and why can't the military community do something???)! But if you aim high, and fall short, you will achieve something greater than you might otherwise do. My vision for Bicester would include a central facility for space cadets to attend camps all year round.. somewhere for all children to learn (perhaps in collusion with other scouting and youth movements). There would be a halfway house capability for airmen and women heading into civvy street, there would be scope for fabricators to learn skills normally associated with aviation and which would be revenue generating entities in their own rights, there could be scope for allowing all manner of service derived and service based activities, relevent to the needs of tomorrow's servicemen and yesterday's too. I can't think of a finer legacy to remember the 55,000 by.

Yes, its a mind boggling task, and one which needs fulltime effort and massive backing. But the will can be found, and at the moment, the cause will never have better public support or a more realistic mandate from politicians and business and industry. If 558 can take to the skies, why not Bisto (metaphorically of course )?

[Chugalug2]

A great vision Al, and one that I share wholeheartedly, with one proviso. The subject of this thread, the Bomber Command Memorial, should be to the 55573 aircrew who steadfastly did their dangerous duty until they perished doing it, and would be well sited at Bicester where many of them started out on their too brief careers. That Bicester as a whole should act as a standing tribute to the aircrew and all those who backed them up, and in doing so often perished in Air Raids, Bomb Dumps, RTAs etc, from the Merchant Sailors who faced a cruel sea and an even crueler enemy, to the factory workers, ground crews, planners etc, is a wonderful concept and an inspiration. I hope BCH share the notion of Bicester not only celebrating BC's heritage but serving as a memorial to all who did their duty, often unto death, in that gigantic struggle that was the Bomber Offensive 1939/45. This fuses the memorial and the station into a single purpose, Remembrance. God's teeth and all this from a Rock! I need to sit down and absorb the implications. So many prejudices to confront, so much to learn, so little time, it's all so overwhelming. So I'll just say way to go Al!