Batik Canberra
I still think though that internationals to a CTAF is a bad idea, no matter how much briefing there are still a lot of issues to contend with and this incident highlights just a few.
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Originally Posted by DR Dre
However the minimum holding altitude at MOMBI is 5600’, which is only written as a note on the DAP chart and without specify it’s a minimum altitude:
@Trevor, rubbish. Probably the hardest place for international to get into. That southerly HP and ILS entry has always been a nightmare. Keep the tower and approach going! This is 2024, not 1955. Put a night-loading on the landing fees if you are so aggrieved by the cost to the rest of industry (taxpayers don't pay for towers). The taxpayers would actually benefit in that case.
If they miss the GS they'd probably be better off just redoing the STAR or the arc...
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‘Overseas Airlines operating services into our cities is good for the economy and therefore good for the tax payer. Is the cost of 24/7 ATC in Canberra worth it to encourage new services while keeping existing services safe?’
Lucky that Sydney is open 24/7 then to RPT…
Are some people really saying it’s worth operating a tower from midnight to 6am for 1 RPT aircraft when that aircraft could easily adjust its schedule to avoid those times? In fact this one has already done that, they were just far too early the night in question and didn’t adjust as obviously they didn’t understand. The money comes from somewhere, it’s called a business case.
Lucky that Sydney is open 24/7 then to RPT…
Are some people really saying it’s worth operating a tower from midnight to 6am for 1 RPT aircraft when that aircraft could easily adjust its schedule to avoid those times? In fact this one has already done that, they were just far too early the night in question and didn’t adjust as obviously they didn’t understand. The money comes from somewhere, it’s called a business case.
The money comes from somewhere, it’s called a business case.
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Looking in my logbook I have flown into 44 different cities around the world, not one them is ever Class G. Canberra is our capital city. It is all becoming embarrassing. Surely we can do better than this.
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Ozbiggles [QUOTE] ‘Overseas Airlines operating services into our cities is good for the economy and therefore good for the tax payer. Is the cost of 24/7 ATC in Canberra worth it to encourage new services while keeping existing services safe?’
Lucky that Sydney is open 24/7 then to RPT…
[/QUOTE.
Simply providing a different example of where we are inefficient and out of step doesn't answer the question. I gather from the rest of your post though that you don’t think it’s worth having a controller on overnight in Canberra.
Personally I think it is and would encourage more operations over time. I’d go so far as to say it would probably pay for itself over a decade and provide significant safety improvements from day one.
Lucky that Sydney is open 24/7 then to RPT…
[/QUOTE.
Simply providing a different example of where we are inefficient and out of step doesn't answer the question. I gather from the rest of your post though that you don’t think it’s worth having a controller on overnight in Canberra.
Personally I think it is and would encourage more operations over time. I’d go so far as to say it would probably pay for itself over a decade and provide significant safety improvements from day one.
Be interested to hear from the ATCs what the correct procedures should've been for this flight.
As referenced earlier, the BatikAir Indonesia flight was mega early. ARFF station opens at 5:40am, ATC TWR opens at 6:00am, CB APP opens at 6:00am. To be fair, ERSA does say "Class C airspace may be reactivated for RPT/VIP ACFT at any time".
ATC roster rules allow shifts to commence from 5am, so perhaps there is an opportunity to open earlier without incurring the costs of overnight shifts for both TWR and APP.
ATSB will no doubt examine whether any attempt was made to bring the TWR and APP staff in earlier for their shifts. Be interested to know the EUROCAT system configuration for Minimum Safe Altitude Warnings in this volume of airspace.
PS When they landed were there even ground crew to meet them? Immigration? Customs?
As referenced earlier, the BatikAir Indonesia flight was mega early. ARFF station opens at 5:40am, ATC TWR opens at 6:00am, CB APP opens at 6:00am. To be fair, ERSA does say "Class C airspace may be reactivated for RPT/VIP ACFT at any time".
ATC roster rules allow shifts to commence from 5am, so perhaps there is an opportunity to open earlier without incurring the costs of overnight shifts for both TWR and APP.
ATSB will no doubt examine whether any attempt was made to bring the TWR and APP staff in earlier for their shifts. Be interested to know the EUROCAT system configuration for Minimum Safe Altitude Warnings in this volume of airspace.
PS When they landed were there even ground crew to meet them? Immigration? Customs?
Last edited by missy; 24th Jun 2024 at 09:38. Reason: typo
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Be interested to hear from the ATCs what the correct procedures should've been for this flight.
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[QUOTE=framer;11682836]Ozbiggles
I agree 100% with you and everyone that says it would be safer to have ATC for all operations. I disagree it’s worth paying 2 controllers x 365 days to work the red eye for 1 RPT aircraft that could just be planned or required to operate within ‘normal’ work hours. ASA are way short on ATCs now, it would be a waste of limited manpower and 1 RPT aircraft isn’t going to cover that cost but the money has to come from somewhere. More RPT is not going to fly into CB just because ATC are there in the stupid hours. Indeed airline bean counters would probably prefer they were not and therefore don’t have to pay for the service.
One of the major holes in the cheese here was allowing them to operate into a CTAF in a RPT jet in a unfamiliar scenario for them. It is entertaining enough when you should know what you are doing. Canberra, Ballina and Proserpine CTAF ops, the clock is ticking….
In enough time Canberra will probably get a curfew anyway as it gets built in and stupid little dog legs in the RNP won’t solve that. Who wants to fly into CB at 5am on any morning anyway?
‘Overseas Airlines operating services into our cities is good for the economy and therefore good for the tax payer. Is the cost of 24/7 ATC in Canberra worth it to encourage new services while keeping existing services safe?’
Lucky that Sydney is open 24/7 then to RPT…
[/QUOTE.
Simply providing a different example of where we are inefficient and out of step doesn't answer the question. I gather from the rest of your post though that you don’t think it’s worth having a controller on overnight in Canberra.
Personally I think it is and would encourage more operations over time. I’d go so far as to say it would probably pay for itself over a decade and provide significant safety improvements from day one.
Lucky that Sydney is open 24/7 then to RPT…
[/QUOTE.
Simply providing a different example of where we are inefficient and out of step doesn't answer the question. I gather from the rest of your post though that you don’t think it’s worth having a controller on overnight in Canberra.
Personally I think it is and would encourage more operations over time. I’d go so far as to say it would probably pay for itself over a decade and provide significant safety improvements from day one.
One of the major holes in the cheese here was allowing them to operate into a CTAF in a RPT jet in a unfamiliar scenario for them. It is entertaining enough when you should know what you are doing. Canberra, Ballina and Proserpine CTAF ops, the clock is ticking….
In enough time Canberra will probably get a curfew anyway as it gets built in and stupid little dog legs in the RNP won’t solve that. Who wants to fly into CB at 5am on any morning anyway?
INFO Z
ATIS YSCB Z 241259
TOWER CLOSED UNTIL 2000 UTC.
CLASS CHARLIE AIRSPACE WITHIN 30 DME CANBERRA 8
THOUSAND 5 HUNDRED FEET AND BELOW REVERTS TO CLASS
GOLF, CTAF AND PAL 118.7.
AUTOMATIC WEATHER INFORMATION BROADCAST 116.7.
CANBERRA TERMINAL INFORMATION ZULU
TOWER CLOSED UNTIL 2000 UTC.
CLASS CHARLIE AIRSPACE WITHIN 30 DME CANBERRA 8
THOUSAND 5 HUNDRED FEET AND BELOW REVERTS TO CLASS
GOLF, CTAF AND PAL 118.7.
AUTOMATIC WEATHER INFORMATION BROADCAST 116.7.
CANBERRA TERMINAL INFORMATION ZULU
I think there is a lot of assumed knowledge with the CBR ATIS.
Both TWR and APP are closed.
Hobart ATIS says TOWER CLOSED EXPECTED REOPENING TIME 1950 UTC. Expected covers if the Tower opens early, or is late opening.
Townsville ATIS says CTAF PROCEDURES APPLY FREQ... Clearly states CTAF procedures apply.
Hobart ATIS says AWIS FREQUENCY... AWIS is an approved abbreviation and should be used.
Not sure that airspace "reverts". ATIS should probably say ... IS CLASS G AIRSPACE. CTAF PROCEDURES APPLY, FREQ 118.7.
Unsure whether PAL needs to be mentioned as MATS says PAL frequency, is a discrete frequency is provided. Is it discrete when it's the same as the CTAF frequency?
As sad as it is that our nations capital airport is not a 24hr manned airport, really, why would it need to be! Barely anyone from overseas wants to fly in there full stop, let alone in the middle of the night.
This Batik crew were just absoeffinglutely clueless that it speaks volumes of their training department. Also speaks volumes of their flight operations department to approve arriving outside tower hours if they don’t understand it.
Sunny, you could make the ATIS say it in Indonesian and I’d be very surprised if they even knew what Class G airspace is. My time flying around Asia, the locals knew the airspace as simply “controlled” or worst case “procedural”. If you told them Procedural was Class D they’d look at you like a kid learning the alphabet for the first time.
Our ATC system is not perfect, but in this instance I think the Batik crew were worse.
This Batik crew were just absoeffinglutely clueless that it speaks volumes of their training department. Also speaks volumes of their flight operations department to approve arriving outside tower hours if they don’t understand it.
Sunny, you could make the ATIS say it in Indonesian and I’d be very surprised if they even knew what Class G airspace is. My time flying around Asia, the locals knew the airspace as simply “controlled” or worst case “procedural”. If you told them Procedural was Class D they’d look at you like a kid learning the alphabet for the first time.
Our ATC system is not perfect, but in this instance I think the Batik crew were worse.
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I was chatting to one of the Canadian Bonza pilots back in Jan, the first thing he mentioned when I asked how things are going, is wtf is with all this G airspace. They come from the land in which even largely GA airports have towers. He said regardless of the multi day classroom briefings they received in regards to the airspace, and the jumpseat, line training flights, it still takes considerable time to build up experience in such airspace.
I’ve noticed especially with cadet FOs, it’s great and all knowing the radio call procedures, they normally get those procedural things right on, but those without hands on ‘in the thick of it’ G experience really struggle when it comes to making decisions on situational awareness, chatting to GA aircraft, and just general decision making. I asked one cadet guy as we headed into a CTAF recently with multiple RA aircraft buzzing around, we have all these identified and potentially unidentified aircraft ahead, what are we going to do? He had no idea. We ended up holding. I’m not cadet bashing, I’m simply stating like Foreign crews, they have had little exposure to such ops.
You can train foreign crews on G procedures, but when things get a little hairy, which could be as little as one GA or RA aircraft in the area, things still fall apart. I noticed this with a Bonza C Jet back in Feb. They acknowledged the RA aircraft but didn’t do anything about it, communication between both was terrible, and they just continued on, I was waiting to read a report about that one, haven’t seen it yet, and obviously we won’t.
I’ve noticed especially with cadet FOs, it’s great and all knowing the radio call procedures, they normally get those procedural things right on, but those without hands on ‘in the thick of it’ G experience really struggle when it comes to making decisions on situational awareness, chatting to GA aircraft, and just general decision making. I asked one cadet guy as we headed into a CTAF recently with multiple RA aircraft buzzing around, we have all these identified and potentially unidentified aircraft ahead, what are we going to do? He had no idea. We ended up holding. I’m not cadet bashing, I’m simply stating like Foreign crews, they have had little exposure to such ops.
You can train foreign crews on G procedures, but when things get a little hairy, which could be as little as one GA or RA aircraft in the area, things still fall apart. I noticed this with a Bonza C Jet back in Feb. They acknowledged the RA aircraft but didn’t do anything about it, communication between both was terrible, and they just continued on, I was waiting to read a report about that one, haven’t seen it yet, and obviously we won’t.
Last edited by nomess; 24th Jun 2024 at 21:30.
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Next thing they will start flying in to Darwin at midnight with different combinations of the runway and taxiways being chopped up. Not to worry ‘Darwin information’ will clear them into the TRA and go back to sleep.
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It might be smart if they scheduled their operation more appropriately. You know, when the ATC is open if CTAF is giving them difficulties. Who decided on the schedule, the flight operations department or the beancounters?
Or route brief/train better. That might help. Especially if it is a new service that has some specific considerations to cover. Did they rush this service in and miss a comprehensive briefing package?
Or route brief/train better. That might help. Especially if it is a new service that has some specific considerations to cover. Did they rush this service in and miss a comprehensive briefing package?
And yes, the lack of 24 hour ATC at the Nation's Capital is a disgrace!
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Once again, Australia proves how pathetic it is. IFR aircraft in uncontrolled airspace is a joke. A pig wearing lipstick in a pseudo 1st world country.
At least E Base 700ft
At least E Base 700ft
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Not sure that airspace "reverts". ATIS should probably say ... IS CLASS G AIRSPACE. (full stop).
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