Batik Canberra
Do they have a route guide to assist in planning the arrival, ie what to expect and potential hazards ? CTAF procedures need to be incorporated as non Australians wouldn't be familiar with them, though it's a bit surprising to need them at a Capital city.
They probably arrived expecting radar vectors onto the ILS and were clueless when this didn't happen. A high level of situational awareness is required when operating in the vicinity of terrain, and yes they should have been able to read an approach plate.
They probably arrived expecting radar vectors onto the ILS and were clueless when this didn't happen. A high level of situational awareness is required when operating in the vicinity of terrain, and yes they should have been able to read an approach plate.
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Real lack of studying the destination and little to no route briefing from flight ops is evident . Normal operations for them , even into small regional airports around south east Asia would be controlled airspace and a tower . Arriving into Australian at its capital and not been told what to do would never have been imagined .
If anyone witnessed the Bonza ring-ins in action you would have seen most pilots from outside of Australia struggle with our OCTA/CTAF concepts when operating larger flying machines. Expecting foreign pilots to operate into CTAFs is going to have these events, even when they work for the local operators. Even the definition of 'visual' and the pilots responsibilities in CTA varies between nations, let alone OCTA.
Retrained, no one gets fired unless they have done it multiple times, or intentionally break the rules, and even then you get demoted first.
If you did this at QF you would be fired!
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As this was an inaugural flight, new destination for the operator, it was highly likely senior pilots of the company was flying the route. Likely however makes no difference if the local procedures have never been internally briefed as part of any approach route.
We have seen a few foreign operators get lost with local CTAF procedures recently. If your TIBA, you might get lucky and have someone jump in if one is heading for terrain, busting mins, or collision etc. Unless you have a centre controller with time, and perhaps nervous, you might get some assistance if things are about to hit the wall, in G, however chances are extremely low. I didn’t hear any comms here that they busted the mins.
Remember the Perth fuel fiasco, many went to non towered airports further north, and needed considerable guidance from centre on how to get in. Krismiler is correct however. Many foreign operators will have diversion ports in Class G, especially WA, but the training department have given no guidance on how to tackle the airspace should that need to occur.
‘No reported IFR Traffic’ often confuses the heck of out them.
We have seen a few foreign operators get lost with local CTAF procedures recently. If your TIBA, you might get lucky and have someone jump in if one is heading for terrain, busting mins, or collision etc. Unless you have a centre controller with time, and perhaps nervous, you might get some assistance if things are about to hit the wall, in G, however chances are extremely low. I didn’t hear any comms here that they busted the mins.
Remember the Perth fuel fiasco, many went to non towered airports further north, and needed considerable guidance from centre on how to get in. Krismiler is correct however. Many foreign operators will have diversion ports in Class G, especially WA, but the training department have given no guidance on how to tackle the airspace should that need to occur.
‘No reported IFR Traffic’ often confuses the heck of out them.
Also sobering to remember that a VA aircraft descended below minimum altitude close to terrain in Cairns not long ago, a QF crew also made the same mistake at the same place.
It might be smart if they scheduled their operation more appropriately. You know, when the ATC is open if CTAF is giving them difficulties. Who decided on the schedule, the flight operations department or the beancounters?
Or route brief/train better. That might help. Especially if it is a new service that has some specific considerations to cover. Did they rush this service in and miss a comprehensive briefing package?
Or route brief/train better. That might help. Especially if it is a new service that has some specific considerations to cover. Did they rush this service in and miss a comprehensive briefing package?
Many foreign operators will have diversion ports in Class G, especially WA, but the training department have given no guidance on how to tackle the airspace should that need to occur.
Not a fair comparison! Makassar and even Lombok for that matter have a 24 control service for a start - and both of those places are way more interesting Canberra!
Lombok for that matter have a 24 control service for a start
Airspace aside how do you descend through the nominated holding altitude published on the chart? Or why didn't they fly a STAR in and join up with the ILS that way? Pretty basic airmanship.
The 35 ILS in both Jeppesen and ASA chart for Canberra is not easy to read.
Seems to be lots of little traps for tired eyes at o dark 30 after a long sector.
The usual chart full off clutter, doesn’t help situational awareness.
Why a holding pattern at Mombi and not at Menzie?
Many years ago the Moorabbin NDB and this one in particular was raised at RAPAC, in relation to the complexity of the chart, and perhaps simplifying the approach plates.
Or perhaps the crew were overwhelmed with all the NOTAM’s for obstructions at YSCB?
Seems to be lots of little traps for tired eyes at o dark 30 after a long sector.
The usual chart full off clutter, doesn’t help situational awareness.
Why a holding pattern at Mombi and not at Menzie?
Many years ago the Moorabbin NDB and this one in particular was raised at RAPAC, in relation to the complexity of the chart, and perhaps simplifying the approach plates.
Or perhaps the crew were overwhelmed with all the NOTAM’s for obstructions at YSCB?
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Maybe the same reason the Qantas co-pilot put the erroneous entry into the FMC, and the pilot didn't pick it up, back in 2004?
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What, batik had a 40°+ flight deck temp?
Both pilots reported that conditions on the flight deck were very abnormally hot throughout the duration of the flight. The copilot reported that the flight
deck supply duct temperature gauge ‘was showing 50 degrees [Celsius] most of the time and at times was up to 60 degrees’. When the cabin temperature
is comfortable at approximately 22 to 24 degrees Celsius (C), the flight deck supply duct temperature gauge normally indicates around 40° C.
Although the investigation was unable to determine the actual flight deck temperature, it is likely that the faulty air conditioning system provided
abnormally hot air to the flight deck. (For more detail on the faulty air conditioning system, refer to section 1.6).
deck supply duct temperature gauge ‘was showing 50 degrees [Celsius] most of the time and at times was up to 60 degrees’. When the cabin temperature
is comfortable at approximately 22 to 24 degrees Celsius (C), the flight deck supply duct temperature gauge normally indicates around 40° C.
Although the investigation was unable to determine the actual flight deck temperature, it is likely that the faulty air conditioning system provided
abnormally hot air to the flight deck. (For more detail on the faulty air conditioning system, refer to section 1.6).
Wha do you think it would cost to man a tower 24/ 7 for one RPT arrival between midnight and 6am for the entire year? If the crew aren’t trained for CTAF, then risk manage it to arrive during CTA only unless your happy to pay more tax. There are multiple breakdowns in this, the crew were just the last ones in this cluster Fox Uniform Charlie Kilo.
It’s a closed STAR. Yes, no ATC adds some holes to the Swiss cheese but ultimately this one falls on the crew IMO.
The flight was scheduled to arrive at 07:00LT but it seems they were early, maybe should have delayed departure from DPS to arrive nearer 07:00LT?
Terrain ?
I would prefer to carry UPG, coming into UPG from DPS your over water, the terrain is to the east of the VOR. If you have fuel for UPG, you have fuel for SUB as well.
UPG, DPS etc all have published terrain charts, good luck to have one for CBR.
UPG, DPS etc all have published terrain charts, good luck to have one for CBR.