NAS rears its head again
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ARFORchristsake;
My post was riddled with question marks, ????????
Some may say they invite a response to a question.
Some may say they indicate the person who put them there is not an expert and invites expert reply.
Some may say your response is reminiscent of past players on this forum who see ridicule, name calling and vilification as justification to win a point with their little agenda. IDIOT's indeed. Both you and Bundy Rum make me sick.
My post was riddled with question marks, ????????
Some may say they invite a response to a question.
Some may say they indicate the person who put them there is not an expert and invites expert reply.
Some may say your response is reminiscent of past players on this forum who see ridicule, name calling and vilification as justification to win a point with their little agenda. IDIOT's indeed. Both you and Bundy Rum make me sick.
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Mr Arouet
No need to be precious. I was not suggesting you were an idiot [like you do with others], rather the people who have put this rubbish togther.
Which reminds me, has anyone read the 'safety statement' for the Class D changes?
No need to be precious. I was not suggesting you were an idiot [like you do with others], rather the people who have put this rubbish togther.
Which reminds me, has anyone read the 'safety statement' for the Class D changes?
has anyone read the 'safety statement' for the Class D changes?
Puece,
Your scenario isn't the worst. The worst is where the lighty is in front but has a later ETA, which means I am going to pass him. The current E Plus between 2500-4500 feet will just make life even more dangerous, as by that stage, I will probably be on the tower (or in the process of changing over), busy organising my approach. Will we get traffic on the lighty who has just popped up in the broadcast area on MEL CEN?
Unless there is a radar/WAMLAT handoff with VFR previously known to all, then a low-altitude tower will never work when it needs to. As is often the case, on paper, the plan looks OK (apart from the fact that it it unique and therefore confusing) but in reality, it won't work and therefore reduces safety.
A similar situation exists during departure. On a bad day, my machine climbs at over 2000fpm. Unless I get traffic before I roll, I will be blasting into totally unknown-traffic airspace, with a frequency change to CEN to boot at very low level. Or will the tower coord with CEN on traffic in low level E? Do I hop over to the CEN freq (whilst still on the runway), do a broadcast to alert any VFRs about, perhaps organise some segregation - no, hang on, I'm IFR on a clearance - and then takeoff?
The whole thing is getting more ridiculous by the minute.
CASA, make it D up to 8500ft and be done with it!
Your scenario isn't the worst. The worst is where the lighty is in front but has a later ETA, which means I am going to pass him. The current E Plus between 2500-4500 feet will just make life even more dangerous, as by that stage, I will probably be on the tower (or in the process of changing over), busy organising my approach. Will we get traffic on the lighty who has just popped up in the broadcast area on MEL CEN?
Unless there is a radar/WAMLAT handoff with VFR previously known to all, then a low-altitude tower will never work when it needs to. As is often the case, on paper, the plan looks OK (apart from the fact that it it unique and therefore confusing) but in reality, it won't work and therefore reduces safety.
A similar situation exists during departure. On a bad day, my machine climbs at over 2000fpm. Unless I get traffic before I roll, I will be blasting into totally unknown-traffic airspace, with a frequency change to CEN to boot at very low level. Or will the tower coord with CEN on traffic in low level E? Do I hop over to the CEN freq (whilst still on the runway), do a broadcast to alert any VFRs about, perhaps organise some segregation - no, hang on, I'm IFR on a clearance - and then takeoff?
The whole thing is getting more ridiculous by the minute.
CASA, make it D up to 8500ft and be done with it!
Capn Blogs,
Will we get traffic on the lighty who has just popped up in the broadcast area on MEL CEN?
- According to my reading of the document, ML CEN has no broadcast area ... only in the Tower-owned airspace
- If you mean, will the TWR pass the traffic back to the Centre ... to pass on to you? ..... probably will have to ... but what a mess
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Just to add to the confusion.......I was WRONG!
AIP suggests that Class E is controlled airspace and no specific exemptions. You would assume that of course. But.....after superdimona piped up and said RAA is OK in E I had a little read of the RAAus Ops manual and specifically CAO95.55.
After you wade your way through yet another set of aviation blurb, you discover that Section 5.1 (d) says the following.
So on that basis it would seem if you meet the radio and transponder requirements you are allowed to truck on through at A025-A050 over BME or KTA.
The rest of the Class E around the country is outside the A050 limit (which everyone seems to ignore while monitoring 126.7 / 123.45
) with maybe some high country area's in southern NSW and VIC. So this is not so relevant.
J
AIP suggests that Class E is controlled airspace and no specific exemptions. You would assume that of course. But.....after superdimona piped up and said RAA is OK in E I had a little read of the RAAus Ops manual and specifically CAO95.55.
After you wade your way through yet another set of aviation blurb, you discover that Section 5.1 (d) says the following.
(d) the aeroplane must only be flown in:
(i) Class G airspace; or
(ii) Class E airspace in V.M.C.;
Note Class G and E airspace are as defined in the Air Services Regulations.
(i) Class G airspace; or
(ii) Class E airspace in V.M.C.;
Note Class G and E airspace are as defined in the Air Services Regulations.
The rest of the Class E around the country is outside the A050 limit (which everyone seems to ignore while monitoring 126.7 / 123.45
) with maybe some high country area's in southern NSW and VIC. So this is not so relevant.J
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I was under the impression that class E airspace was that airspace above 8500ft and was subject to a transponder and radio being functional. So that below, except for CTA, is G?
Is class E airspace "controlled" or not?
Is class E airspace "controlled" or not?
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Class E is we.. E for Effluent?
Yes Class E is controlled airspace. Hence my initial belief from AIP being so. However RAAus who operate under a vast array of exemptions seem to have that as part of their exemptions. Read CAO95.55.
You are correct about the radio and transponder requirement (Aust anyway). As for the 8500' bit thats just where we have it down to at the moment.
Why do the OAR want to make it even more complicated.
Yes Class E is controlled airspace. Hence my initial belief from AIP being so. However RAAus who operate under a vast array of exemptions seem to have that as part of their exemptions. Read CAO95.55.
You are correct about the radio and transponder requirement (Aust anyway). As for the 8500' bit thats just where we have it down to at the moment.
Why do the OAR want to make it even more complicated.
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I get email from CASA on a daily basis and most regarding International Airlines operate under "exemptions" of one sort or another. This doesn't make RA-Aus special.
AOPA brokered the 8500ft deal. What have they got to say about the state of play now?
I'll play it safe in class E until I read definitive direction, but in the meantime, I'll keep my mouth shut in class G except for CTAF requirements, as will many others who don't want to play this game until we define such things as "duty of care" and where VFR traffic, in their thousands, fit in.
My advice for you "professionals" is don't fly in "Indian territory" if you can't handle the perceived threats, or if you do so, keep your climb and descent profiles so you are there for the bare mimimum of time. Cracked cylinders are your problem unless you have a turbine.
Am I flying in "controlled airspace" if I have radar coverage????????
Why do I need a transponder if nobody wants to interract with me??????
I guess this will all change with ADSB when we are "noticed" and "watched" and we can be seen when we go "off screen" like in the movies?
Remember your "grass roots" Jabawocky.
AOPA brokered the 8500ft deal. What have they got to say about the state of play now?
I'll play it safe in class E until I read definitive direction, but in the meantime, I'll keep my mouth shut in class G except for CTAF requirements, as will many others who don't want to play this game until we define such things as "duty of care" and where VFR traffic, in their thousands, fit in.
My advice for you "professionals" is don't fly in "Indian territory" if you can't handle the perceived threats, or if you do so, keep your climb and descent profiles so you are there for the bare mimimum of time. Cracked cylinders are your problem unless you have a turbine.
Am I flying in "controlled airspace" if I have radar coverage????????
Why do I need a transponder if nobody wants to interract with me??????
I guess this will all change with ADSB when we are "noticed" and "watched" and we can be seen when we go "off screen" like in the movies?
Remember your "grass roots" Jabawocky.
Gee - I've been quoting these radio and transponder exemptions for some sport aviation types in Class E for about the last 2 years and recently gave specific references ......... why you no listen Cookie Boy(s)?
For the last time (no, it won't be I know):
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...ml#post3638553
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post5164366
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...ml#post5688382
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Part 95 - Exemptions from Provisions of the Civil Aviation Regulations
If in doubt re the applicability of any of the exemptions - ask CASA.
Purely due to the broadcast areas to be declared over Broome & Karatha, access to Class E 2500-4500 will be restricted to radio-equipped types with specific communications requirements. Above the broadcast area it is my understanding that "normal" Class E procedures apply, with the various exemptions outlined above.
It is also rumoured that from 3 June AVV will also have a similar broadcast area declared, with the same communications requirements as well as mandatory transponder operation.
For the last time (no, it won't be I know):
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...ml#post3638553
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post5164366
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...ml#post5688382
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Part 95 - Exemptions from Provisions of the Civil Aviation Regulations
If in doubt re the applicability of any of the exemptions - ask CASA.
Purely due to the broadcast areas to be declared over Broome & Karatha, access to Class E 2500-4500 will be restricted to radio-equipped types with specific communications requirements. Above the broadcast area it is my understanding that "normal" Class E procedures apply, with the various exemptions outlined above.
It is also rumoured that from 3 June AVV will also have a similar broadcast area declared, with the same communications requirements as well as mandatory transponder operation.
Am I flying in "controlled airspace" if I have radar coverage????????
Why do I need a transponder if nobody wants to interract with me??????
Why do I need a transponder if nobody wants to interract with me??????
Don't get hung up on controlled vs uncontrolled, we now have to think in terms of the level of service provided/required for each letter/type of airspace.
EDIT to add: Think of the soon to vanish GAAP sites, MB, BK, JT etc. Is it controlled? Then why is the PILOT responsible for separation not the ATCO?
Last edited by Icarus2001; 18th May 2010 at 09:08.
Don't get hung up on controlled vs uncontrolled, we now have to think in terms of the level of service provided/required for each letter/type of airspace.
Gee, I'm glad we are standardising with the rest of the world ........
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Captain Midnight
Re: RAA in Class E
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...cao95/9555.pdf
Is my reading of the CAO correct that:-
5.1 (d) [Class E and G airspace] is accessible to all RAA aircraft and pilots, And;
5.2 (a) thru (f) [Class A, B, C and D airspace] applies to only some RAA aircraft, and pilots with a PPL or better
If that interpretation is correct, then why is carriage and use of a transponder listed in 5.2. for A, B and C airspace, but no such clause exists in 5.1 for Class E airspace?
Does this mean RAA in Class E [below A050] are exempt from transponder carriage and use? Surely that will need amending now that Class E exists below A050?
Re: RAA in Class E
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...cao95/9555.pdf
Is my reading of the CAO correct that:-
5.1 (d) [Class E and G airspace] is accessible to all RAA aircraft and pilots, And;
5.2 (a) thru (f) [Class A, B, C and D airspace] applies to only some RAA aircraft, and pilots with a PPL or better
If that interpretation is correct, then why is carriage and use of a transponder listed in 5.2. for A, B and C airspace, but no such clause exists in 5.1 for Class E airspace?
Does this mean RAA in Class E [below A050] are exempt from transponder carriage and use? Surely that will need amending now that Class E exists below A050?
ARFOR
Let me say up front I'm not a RA-AUS type so I'm simply interpreting the regs and exemptions as they stand (with some experience nutting out CASA regs), and my knowledge of various ops with these and other aircraft types.
The way I read CAO 95.55 I believe your interpretation of 5.2 & 5.2 is correct.
I suspect it is because Class E is Clayton's controlled airspace i.e. effectively only controlled airspace for IFR, because of course VFR do not require ATC clearances or even communication with ATC providing they comply with various requirements as specified in CAO's relating to their specific types including exemptions. As such E is really enhanced G, where IFR are separated etc. I recall reading a while back the justification for one of the CAO 95 sport aviation type exemptions was specifically to permit access to Class E airspace, to which gliders have had access to for some time earlier.
Clearly CASA has to re-think some of these aspects, and I'm assuming they have declared these broadcast areas to get around the no radio/no talkie/no transponder scenarios.
Transponders are required in E for those aircraft types with an engine driven electrical system capable of powering one though. There is a directive somewhere on the CASA website that says that, and also something somewhere that says for all classes of airspace, if a transponder is fitted, it must be activated. But if like gliders, hang gliders etc. you can't power one, a transponder isn't mandatory for ops in Class E.
It doesn't help trying to suss out the situation when you have to interpret a bunch of separate documents
Let me say up front I'm not a RA-AUS type so I'm simply interpreting the regs and exemptions as they stand (with some experience nutting out CASA regs), and my knowledge of various ops with these and other aircraft types.
The way I read CAO 95.55 I believe your interpretation of 5.2 & 5.2 is correct.
If that interpretation is correct, then why is carriage and use of a transponder listed in 5.2. for A, B and C airspace, but no such clause exists in 5.1 for Class E airspace?
Clearly CASA has to re-think some of these aspects, and I'm assuming they have declared these broadcast areas to get around the no radio/no talkie/no transponder scenarios.
Transponders are required in E for those aircraft types with an engine driven electrical system capable of powering one though. There is a directive somewhere on the CASA website that says that, and also something somewhere that says for all classes of airspace, if a transponder is fitted, it must be activated. But if like gliders, hang gliders etc. you can't power one, a transponder isn't mandatory for ops in Class E.
It doesn't help trying to suss out the situation when you have to interpret a bunch of separate documents
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Frank....I remember my grass roots....YCA is mostly Grass...apart from one TDZ.
Icarus2001......Frank just asks silly hypothetical questions all the time that he knows the answers too, but wants to bait you on...yep I bite from time to time. And 8500...I think Dick was behind that, he had his hand up A.O.P.A's ar$e at the time I reckon.
peuce........ Mate, you nailed it again
. Its my shout for you at the Brekky Ck if ya game!
Icarus2001......Frank just asks silly hypothetical questions all the time that he knows the answers too, but wants to bait you on...yep I bite from time to time. And 8500...I think Dick was behind that, he had his hand up A.O.P.A's ar$e at the time I reckon.
peuce........ Mate, you nailed it again
. Its my shout for you at the Brekky Ck if ya game!
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Thanks CM
I agree, trying to work out what applies when and where is difficult.
The question I suppose is, does the CAO exemption [transponder ommission in 5.1] apply to the exclusion of all else?
To put VFR broadcast requirments on Class E [with or without surveillance] to attempt to mitigate the IFR/VFR and VFR/VFR risk indicates the classification allocation is wrong to start with, let alone the implications for pilots and ATC in this 'new' non-ICAO, non-anywhere else airspace classification.
Like Bloggs said [as has been said at numerous juctures in this discussion] why not Class D to A085?
I agree, trying to work out what applies when and where is difficult.
The question I suppose is, does the CAO exemption [transponder ommission in 5.1] apply to the exclusion of all else?
To put VFR broadcast requirments on Class E [with or without surveillance] to attempt to mitigate the IFR/VFR and VFR/VFR risk indicates the classification allocation is wrong to start with, let alone the implications for pilots and ATC in this 'new' non-ICAO, non-anywhere else airspace classification.
Like Bloggs said [as has been said at numerous juctures in this discussion] why not Class D to A085?
Worked, Radar Back-up, Frank you have NO idea of the ramifications [legal quagmire] that sits with ATC in different classes of airspace
Only because Australia, as always out of step with most of the rest of the world, chooses to have it that way ------ and the asserted liability (as opposed to real world liability) had been a very effective political/industrial line from Civilair since the 1980s, despite more recent favorable High Court judgments around liability issues.
In the US, liability of FAA or individual controllers is a non-issue, just as Rec. pilots are a non-issue in E.
Tootle pip!!