South Africa ENR and TMA jobs
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Quokka;
Hopefully this forum helped you by providing some balance to 'the roadshow'? What was in the contract that was unacceptable? No need to be too specific, if you don't mind sharing the info.
Little One;
My interest is not slagging off Sth. Africa. I know how these prick's operate. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, and for reasons known only to themselves (probably money), these managers choose the wrong way time after time. It's almost like they don't want the staff to be happy. There are lots of guys here eager to go home, and I believe managers there know exactly what is required, yet head off around the world spending that money hiring foreigners. While in the short term that might be a nice way for people to get out and experience the world, long term is does S.A. no good. It also helps if those foreigners know what they are getting into (they are used to very different industrial law).
ps.
You wonder why people here get chips on their shoulder? There haven't been any problems here. If we felt threatened by that sort of stuff, we wouldn't be here. That comment is a bit like saying "I've heard about all the trouble in Morocco, is it safe to go to Africa?"
Hopefully this forum helped you by providing some balance to 'the roadshow'? What was in the contract that was unacceptable? No need to be too specific, if you don't mind sharing the info.
Little One;
My interest is not slagging off Sth. Africa. I know how these prick's operate. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, and for reasons known only to themselves (probably money), these managers choose the wrong way time after time. It's almost like they don't want the staff to be happy. There are lots of guys here eager to go home, and I believe managers there know exactly what is required, yet head off around the world spending that money hiring foreigners. While in the short term that might be a nice way for people to get out and experience the world, long term is does S.A. no good. It also helps if those foreigners know what they are getting into (they are used to very different industrial law).
ps.
Yes SA is great and asside from the suicide bombings is the UAE great.
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Little One, I agree with you that the only people who really know what's going on at FAJS is the people who currently work there. However, the facts still speak for themselves. Why are you so short of ATC's? If things have improved as you claim the shortage wouldn't be a problem, would it?
It seems to me from this thread that the Ex-FAJS controllers hold a very strong grudge against ATNS. The question I ask is why? I'm not trying to second-guess anyone but it seems like the majority of the EX-FAJS controllers left for reasons of which only a little part was money (I'll open this one up for comments).
1. I agree that your new MATS appears to be a good choice. If I'm not mistaken he himself spent a very short spell in the UAE and would possibly have still been there if circumstances had permitted, so I'm sure he knows why ATC's leave for other pastures. I just hope that like the previous MATS's that he doesn't become a puppet for Head Office, which in the past has been where the real decisions get made.
2. It seems like you need to look at a map with regards to the location of the UAE and pay more attention to the news as far as suicide bombings go? Just as Africa is not South Africa, the Middle East is not the UAE? The country is Israel if you care to look it up!
3. Lastly you have summed up the situation quite nicely. Everyone leaves after their contact's finish! Is that an echo that I hear?
The more things change the more they stay the same. The cycle continues!
Regards to all.
.
It seems to me from this thread that the Ex-FAJS controllers hold a very strong grudge against ATNS. The question I ask is why? I'm not trying to second-guess anyone but it seems like the majority of the EX-FAJS controllers left for reasons of which only a little part was money (I'll open this one up for comments).
1. I agree that your new MATS appears to be a good choice. If I'm not mistaken he himself spent a very short spell in the UAE and would possibly have still been there if circumstances had permitted, so I'm sure he knows why ATC's leave for other pastures. I just hope that like the previous MATS's that he doesn't become a puppet for Head Office, which in the past has been where the real decisions get made.
2. It seems like you need to look at a map with regards to the location of the UAE and pay more attention to the news as far as suicide bombings go? Just as Africa is not South Africa, the Middle East is not the UAE? The country is Israel if you care to look it up!
3. Lastly you have summed up the situation quite nicely. Everyone leaves after their contact's finish! Is that an echo that I hear?
The more things change the more they stay the same. The cycle continues!
Regards to all.
.
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Belated hello dudes!
I have only just seen this thread so please excuse me for arriving late to the debate.
Quite a stir this little country at the bottom of Africa is causing ne'?
Probably the best way to get info is to just deal with the facts and let everyone else make up their own mind. I can only tell you what my circumstances are since everyone @ JHB gets a different salary (go figure) and everyone plays their cards close to the chest.
I am an approach & tower validated ATC @ Johannesburg. I get 20 days leave per year. I get 6 days off per 28 day cycle, this may, but more likely will not include a full weekend. My take home salary after tax is R18000 per month. The day shifts are mostly 7 hrs in length with one 1 hr break. The day shifts start @ 6am and the last finishes @ 8 or 9pm. I'm sure you can work out how long the night shifts are (Yep, I can read, write and do maths!).
One gets 60 days sick leave over a 3 year cycle, and anytime one books off a doctor's note may be required. Medical aid is included in the after tax salary and it's quite good (Discovery) in comparison to others in SA, but not exemplary. It is quite complex and includes self-payment gaps and Medical Savings Accounts etc.
As to the answers to some questions:
I think ATNS is responding slowly to the training needs @ JHB but this will take a long time to reap the benefits. One also needs to remember that with 1 or 2 Approach sectors open, it's quite hard to have more than 2 students per day, so it is inherantly a slow system (no matter where you are from). They are starting with an accelerated system of training called EDUCATS, the merits of which remain to be seen.
The staffing situation is not improving as yet, there were 21 approach controllers in 1994, there are now 18 on the roster today. Traffic is alleged to be 108% more (ATNS figures), this is probably the fuel for much debate. (What the ATCs were paid in 1994, I have no idea).
There would probably be some initial antagonism to foreigners coming to work here for better pay. It would depend on those individuals as to how long it lasts. There has been talk of no OJTI until their packages is made public and debate allowed. As to whether this will actually happen? Angaas. Whether the instrucors would not give OJTI come crunchtime? Angaas... Someone mentioned to me the other day that these people would be getting their salary no matter where they worked, so they might as well come and work here. Fair point.
ATNS has had a history of punitive management, which I think has not fundamentally changed, it's just a little camouflaged now. One feels very much part of and loyal to the job and one's co-workers, but not really much of the above for ATNS. This is true despite the fact that ATNS pays for all one's training as well a salary whilst under training. A lot can probably be read into that.
As to the country, well it's just great. Bear in mind though that it looks pretty small on the map, but it's a couple of hours drive to anything worthwhile for a nature enthusiast. The crime is a problem, I don't personally know anyone who has never been touched by crime. This said, there are precautions one can take which make things acceptably safe, e.g. secuity complexes, alarms, vehicle tracking. It's probably painful if you are not used to it, but unobtrusive if you are.
My advice to any would be applicants is to get as many e-mail addresses from someone here, and talk to them. It's not an easy decision, for us locals (sic) or the imports. The size of this thread can attest to that, so get as much info as possible and make an informed decision.
Hope this was of some help to some of you dudes!
I have only just seen this thread so please excuse me for arriving late to the debate.
Quite a stir this little country at the bottom of Africa is causing ne'?
Probably the best way to get info is to just deal with the facts and let everyone else make up their own mind. I can only tell you what my circumstances are since everyone @ JHB gets a different salary (go figure) and everyone plays their cards close to the chest.
I am an approach & tower validated ATC @ Johannesburg. I get 20 days leave per year. I get 6 days off per 28 day cycle, this may, but more likely will not include a full weekend. My take home salary after tax is R18000 per month. The day shifts are mostly 7 hrs in length with one 1 hr break. The day shifts start @ 6am and the last finishes @ 8 or 9pm. I'm sure you can work out how long the night shifts are (Yep, I can read, write and do maths!).
One gets 60 days sick leave over a 3 year cycle, and anytime one books off a doctor's note may be required. Medical aid is included in the after tax salary and it's quite good (Discovery) in comparison to others in SA, but not exemplary. It is quite complex and includes self-payment gaps and Medical Savings Accounts etc.
As to the answers to some questions:
I think ATNS is responding slowly to the training needs @ JHB but this will take a long time to reap the benefits. One also needs to remember that with 1 or 2 Approach sectors open, it's quite hard to have more than 2 students per day, so it is inherantly a slow system (no matter where you are from). They are starting with an accelerated system of training called EDUCATS, the merits of which remain to be seen.
The staffing situation is not improving as yet, there were 21 approach controllers in 1994, there are now 18 on the roster today. Traffic is alleged to be 108% more (ATNS figures), this is probably the fuel for much debate. (What the ATCs were paid in 1994, I have no idea).
There would probably be some initial antagonism to foreigners coming to work here for better pay. It would depend on those individuals as to how long it lasts. There has been talk of no OJTI until their packages is made public and debate allowed. As to whether this will actually happen? Angaas. Whether the instrucors would not give OJTI come crunchtime? Angaas... Someone mentioned to me the other day that these people would be getting their salary no matter where they worked, so they might as well come and work here. Fair point.
ATNS has had a history of punitive management, which I think has not fundamentally changed, it's just a little camouflaged now. One feels very much part of and loyal to the job and one's co-workers, but not really much of the above for ATNS. This is true despite the fact that ATNS pays for all one's training as well a salary whilst under training. A lot can probably be read into that.
As to the country, well it's just great. Bear in mind though that it looks pretty small on the map, but it's a couple of hours drive to anything worthwhile for a nature enthusiast. The crime is a problem, I don't personally know anyone who has never been touched by crime. This said, there are precautions one can take which make things acceptably safe, e.g. secuity complexes, alarms, vehicle tracking. It's probably painful if you are not used to it, but unobtrusive if you are.
My advice to any would be applicants is to get as many e-mail addresses from someone here, and talk to them. It's not an easy decision, for us locals (sic) or the imports. The size of this thread can attest to that, so get as much info as possible and make an informed decision.
Hope this was of some help to some of you dudes!
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EltorroLoco, thanks for the input. I think it's probably to most accurate picture of what's going on so far. However I would just like to mention that the number of controllers does vary significantly from what you have said. It wasn't mentioned that in the beginning to middle of 1995 there were only 7 dedicated APP controllers and 2 or 3 from management to fill in the gaps. With FAJS supposedly running 2 APP sectors manned by 2 controllers each.... well you do the maths. Additionally I agree the the traffic has increased significantly but also the airspace available has also increased by 30% by taking over the previous Military Restriced Area north of FAJS, which I'm sure eased the traffic flow somwhat. ATNS's figures don't quite agree with what ACSA or IATA say, but that's another topic. Once again thanks for the input.
With regard to the bombings I was referring to the ones in Riyaad (forgive spelling I don't have a map) but the point was made by Ferris
Same as here the crime to a point is localised. There are bad areas that if you avoid shouldn't affect you and we are still here in Sa afterall.
EXATC yes people did leave for other reasons and these were mostly personality clashes between them and ex management. The choice to leave is just made so much sweeter if one will get more money out of it. Also some family types especially didn't quite appreciate the 6 days off in 28. This is still a big bone of contention here and working conditions are a big point to ponder if you want to leave.
If you take the precauthions as eltorro pointed out the security issue is usually only cared for on a subconcious level.
If you are thinking about it I say go for it and come join us feel free to e-mail any of us for more info like what security we have in place to what we do in our valued spare time. Get as much info as possible to make the best choice but get it from those in SA as the expats could be a little out of touch, but they are not always wrong ( there are valid points made in this forum)
There haven't been any problems here. If we felt threatened by that sort of stuff, we wouldn't be here.
EXATC yes people did leave for other reasons and these were mostly personality clashes between them and ex management. The choice to leave is just made so much sweeter if one will get more money out of it. Also some family types especially didn't quite appreciate the 6 days off in 28. This is still a big bone of contention here and working conditions are a big point to ponder if you want to leave.
If you take the precauthions as eltorro pointed out the security issue is usually only cared for on a subconcious level.
If you are thinking about it I say go for it and come join us feel free to e-mail any of us for more info like what security we have in place to what we do in our valued spare time. Get as much info as possible to make the best choice but get it from those in SA as the expats could be a little out of touch, but they are not always wrong ( there are valid points made in this forum)
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EltorroLoco
Improvements you say........hmm...well when I used to work in SA we got 30 days leave per year which was accruable....you now get 20 days !! ..........going backwards it seems....6 days off a month ...don`t think thats quite enough.......us out of touch expats definately are IN touch.......
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Heard a rumour that Denmark has way too many ATCs. They are sending the older blokes on early retirement, will not be training new ATCs for a period of 5 years or so and are in talks with ATNS about sending surplus ATCs to Joburg!!
A river to my people
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The saga continues:
This appeared today.
"To All Air Traffic Control Staff
Subject: ATNS Secondment Progress
Progress is continuing to be made on the business and contractual arrangements surrounding the secondment of Airservices Australia’s air traffic controllers to South Africa. The taxation matters referred to in the update of 6 May 2003 appear to have been resolved this week and final arrangements are now being made to progress this opportunity with individual staff.
Charles Norval of ATNS has concluded interviews with staff and has returned to South Africa. Charles has provided Airservices Australia with a preferred list of names of ATCs and we have now considered and determined our ability to release those individual staff.
The following action will take place over the coming days.
Airservices Australia will:
o provide formal letters of offer and contracts to those ATC staff who ATNS have nominated as suitable, and who are able to be released by Airservices Australia:
– firstly to those able to be released in the period Jun-Aug 03, and
– secondly, to those who are able to be released in the period Sept 03 – April 04.
o formally advise those staff who were unsuccessful in being selected by ATNS on this occasion. We do understand that some staff may be disappointed, but this is only the start of what we hope is an ongoing business relationship and we do expect other opportunities to arise with ATNS from the middle of next year. Staff unsuccessful on this occasion will be able to seek re-interview at that time.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of those staff who submitted expressions of interest in the ATNS secondment opportunity. For those staff that have been selected and who take up the opportunity, I wish you well in South Africa and hope that it is an enjoyable and memorable work and life experience.
Susan Keey"
sep
This appeared today.
"To All Air Traffic Control Staff
Subject: ATNS Secondment Progress
Progress is continuing to be made on the business and contractual arrangements surrounding the secondment of Airservices Australia’s air traffic controllers to South Africa. The taxation matters referred to in the update of 6 May 2003 appear to have been resolved this week and final arrangements are now being made to progress this opportunity with individual staff.
Charles Norval of ATNS has concluded interviews with staff and has returned to South Africa. Charles has provided Airservices Australia with a preferred list of names of ATCs and we have now considered and determined our ability to release those individual staff.
The following action will take place over the coming days.
Airservices Australia will:
o provide formal letters of offer and contracts to those ATC staff who ATNS have nominated as suitable, and who are able to be released by Airservices Australia:
– firstly to those able to be released in the period Jun-Aug 03, and
– secondly, to those who are able to be released in the period Sept 03 – April 04.
o formally advise those staff who were unsuccessful in being selected by ATNS on this occasion. We do understand that some staff may be disappointed, but this is only the start of what we hope is an ongoing business relationship and we do expect other opportunities to arise with ATNS from the middle of next year. Staff unsuccessful on this occasion will be able to seek re-interview at that time.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of those staff who submitted expressions of interest in the ATNS secondment opportunity. For those staff that have been selected and who take up the opportunity, I wish you well in South Africa and hope that it is an enjoyable and memorable work and life experience.
Susan Keey"
sep
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NO SWEDES!
Hi guys!
There will not be any Swedes coming to SA at this time.
Swedavias offer was too expensive for ATNS.
Good luck all you people that are going!
And good luck to all you SA-controllers, with the new system and new colleagues!!
TAke care!!
There will not be any Swedes coming to SA at this time.
Swedavias offer was too expensive for ATNS.
Good luck all you people that are going!
And good luck to all you SA-controllers, with the new system and new colleagues!!
TAke care!!
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Does anybody have any info on how it is all going?
Would also be interested in
how this was achieved?
Would also be interested in
The taxation matters referred to in the update of 6 May 2003 appear to have been resolved this week
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tyrant
You're joking right??
I flew into Nairobi once and the ATC service was atrocious, from the time we entered the FIR until we took off again and were glad to be told to contact Dar es Salam! Scary stuff...
Tell us more about the South Americans. Have these guys accepted the contracts?
EL cheapo ATNS
You're joking right??
I flew into Nairobi once and the ATC service was atrocious, from the time we entered the FIR until we took off again and were glad to be told to contact Dar es Salam! Scary stuff...
Tell us more about the South Americans. Have these guys accepted the contracts?
EL cheapo ATNS
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I sh
t you not 126.7
2 Kenyans for Durbs, 2 Ury's for CT and 1 Ury for JS Central with i think another 1 kenyan a bit later on for durban.
Apparently all the accepted went through testing at the college and passed.
Its strange none of the contractees are going to JS itself. It appears that the plan is to get the Ury's and the kenyans to the outstations so that local staff can be released and sent to JS.
Possibly waiting for the ozzies to go to JS because of the Thales issue.
Ah well who knows
Later
T
t you not 126.72 Kenyans for Durbs, 2 Ury's for CT and 1 Ury for JS Central with i think another 1 kenyan a bit later on for durban.
Apparently all the accepted went through testing at the college and passed.
Its strange none of the contractees are going to JS itself. It appears that the plan is to get the Ury's and the kenyans to the outstations so that local staff can be released and sent to JS.
Possibly waiting for the ozzies to go to JS because of the Thales issue.
Ah well who knows
Later
T
or is this a political question...
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It was with horror that I read MISAIR's post about no swedes coming to FAJS. All the Europeans we've had in Joburg have gone solo. The Scandinavians were the best by far. According to some of the guys who went to Oz to do the initial training on the new system, the Aussies are going to
themselves when they see how we work at Joburg. No controlling slumped back in your chair here mate!!!!! Out of 4 Aussies we've ever had, only 1 made it and he was rather bad. 
To make a final point about ATNS being able to retain staff, it'll be a cold day in hell when that happens. But they are only on plan w now. We still wait in anticipation for x, y and z.
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Danish atco's to SA
Seems there might be a few openings for some of us danish controllers. The interviews were carried out two weeks ago, and we're told that we will recieve notice this Friday :-)
Looking forward and keeping fingers crossed!
Looking forward and keeping fingers crossed!
niknak
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With due respect to their fellow nationals, who else but Kenyans and Ury's would want to work in S.A. ?
The economy is going down the toilet and has been for years, it's one of the most dangerous places in the world to live and work, and the whole ATC system is on the verge of going belly up.
Makes Zimbabwae sound positively attractive.
The economy is going down the toilet and has been for years, it's one of the most dangerous places in the world to live and work, and the whole ATC system is on the verge of going belly up.
Makes Zimbabwae sound positively attractive.
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Nik nak.
I don't know about the economic situation in SA. I don't know the exact odds for surviving 17 months in SA either. What I do know from correspondence with SA-ATCO's is that SA is a beatiful contry with plenty of possibilities for the 'not to narrow-minded'. PAY... I might face a little less $$$ per month... but then again... $$$ isn't everything... to me, at least.
As to the contract in question, there are still a few issues regarding housing that needs to be clarified. That's why we haven't packed the cases yet :-)
I'm looking forward to be giving my South African collegues a hand with their "belly up ATC-system"
(That is ONE of the reasons they need relief you know... to start training on the new system)
Cherio!
I don't know about the economic situation in SA. I don't know the exact odds for surviving 17 months in SA either. What I do know from correspondence with SA-ATCO's is that SA is a beatiful contry with plenty of possibilities for the 'not to narrow-minded'. PAY... I might face a little less $$$ per month... but then again... $$$ isn't everything... to me, at least.
As to the contract in question, there are still a few issues regarding housing that needs to be clarified. That's why we haven't packed the cases yet :-)
I'm looking forward to be giving my South African collegues a hand with their "belly up ATC-system"
(That is ONE of the reasons they need relief you know... to start training on the new system)
Cherio!
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Short approach
Disregard what that fool before you posted
niknak
You are pretty much the most ignorent fool i've ever heard post. It is painfully clear the you don't posses a clue, a brain, or a TV that has anything but a sky news channel.
Please confine your idiotic comments to things you know about, and quit putting down a place that you've never been to. And if i'm wrong, and you have been here, maybe you should have ventured out the hotel and had a look around.
Maybe an education would help too, it's Zimbabwe, not Zimbabwae.
Disregard what that fool before you posted
niknak
You are pretty much the most ignorent fool i've ever heard post. It is painfully clear the you don't posses a clue, a brain, or a TV that has anything but a sky news channel.
Please confine your idiotic comments to things you know about, and quit putting down a place that you've never been to. And if i'm wrong, and you have been here, maybe you should have ventured out the hotel and had a look around.
Maybe an education would help too, it's Zimbabwe, not Zimbabwae.