London area SIDs
Thread Starter
London area SIDs
This is a strictly amateur question and i did try spotters balcony for 2 days-anyone here have moment to answer whats probably a silly question-thanks
suppose this could be in the ATC forum but its not a professional issue.
Living near Camberley in surrey we are spoiled with a large diversity of aircraft flying around and above but lastweek i was delighted to see what turned out to be one of the big 4 fan Antonovs climbing out due south over us -height suggested might be from Luton or STN. However instead of continuing south for Midhurst and the coast as I see every day with EZYs and Ryans et al it turned sharply( relatively speaking ) left and disappeared towards Biggin and points east . I hadnt seen aircraft on that Southbound departure routing do that before. At the time I assumed it was a special arangement for a heavy slow climbing freighter unable to use anormal departure but the following day I saw two 737s do the same thing. Is this something new -seems a very long way around from STN or Luton to head east.
Any ideas?
Anyway it was great to see the the Antonov make a huge sweeping turn seemingly suspended in space and catching the sun just nicely
PB
suppose this could be in the ATC forum but its not a professional issue.
Living near Camberley in surrey we are spoiled with a large diversity of aircraft flying around and above but lastweek i was delighted to see what turned out to be one of the big 4 fan Antonovs climbing out due south over us -height suggested might be from Luton or STN. However instead of continuing south for Midhurst and the coast as I see every day with EZYs and Ryans et al it turned sharply( relatively speaking ) left and disappeared towards Biggin and points east . I hadnt seen aircraft on that Southbound departure routing do that before. At the time I assumed it was a special arangement for a heavy slow climbing freighter unable to use anormal departure but the following day I saw two 737s do the same thing. Is this something new -seems a very long way around from STN or Luton to head east.
Any ideas?
Anyway it was great to see the the Antonov make a huge sweeping turn seemingly suspended in space and catching the sun just nicely
PB
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The routing you suggested makes it very unlikely that this aircraft came from Luton, and if it headed east and had come from Stansted, as the captain I'd have been wondering where the hell ATC were taking me if I was over Camberley and wanting to head east over Kent, so that routing is a definite no no.
I can't say with any authority where this aircraft came from but it is possible it may have been a departure from Lasham/Farnborough. It's quite common for aircraft to be routed out to the west to gain height before being turned back to the east (usually NE in the direction of Brookmans Park to head out over Essex to Northern Europe). This is to climb above the OCK/BNN stacks and generally get the hell out of everyones way. Aircraft usually depart these airfields routing towards Compton and are very often given a left turn onto a S Easterly heading as they are climbing, before finally pointing them towards Essex as they climb above everything in the way.... The reason they turn left and go the long way around (left turn from NW onto NE heading) is that it keeps them within the confines of the same ATC sector, thereby reducing the need for several phone calls to coordinate the passage of the aircraft and also allows them time to gain height. It's likely that any aircraft on this route passing over the Camberley area could be anything from about FL110 to FL170 so definitely in the same ball park as a Luton departure....
It's by no means a definitive answer but if it was an Antonov and was returning home to the Mother Country then this is a plausible explanation....
Hope it helps!
I can't say with any authority where this aircraft came from but it is possible it may have been a departure from Lasham/Farnborough. It's quite common for aircraft to be routed out to the west to gain height before being turned back to the east (usually NE in the direction of Brookmans Park to head out over Essex to Northern Europe). This is to climb above the OCK/BNN stacks and generally get the hell out of everyones way. Aircraft usually depart these airfields routing towards Compton and are very often given a left turn onto a S Easterly heading as they are climbing, before finally pointing them towards Essex as they climb above everything in the way.... The reason they turn left and go the long way around (left turn from NW onto NE heading) is that it keeps them within the confines of the same ATC sector, thereby reducing the need for several phone calls to coordinate the passage of the aircraft and also allows them time to gain height. It's likely that any aircraft on this route passing over the Camberley area could be anything from about FL110 to FL170 so definitely in the same ball park as a Luton departure....
It's by no means a definitive answer but if it was an Antonov and was returning home to the Mother Country then this is a plausible explanation....
Hope it helps!
Thread Starter
Thank you for takign the trouble to reply to a 'just out of interest 'question
Well there is no doubt it was an Antonov because once it started to turn the high wing and glude markings on white were very very clear. The reason I mention STN or Luton was whenI initially saw it it was on the same southbound track as dozens of EZYs which I see every clear day.
However when it turned toward the east it by my guestimation pretty much go right over Ockham.I doubt it it came from Farnbough as I live close enough to hear anthing that noisy depart from there but the special routing comment certainly seems to make sense to me.Maybe someone back on the spotters forum will know where it came from that day
Thanks again
PB
Well there is no doubt it was an Antonov because once it started to turn the high wing and glude markings on white were very very clear. The reason I mention STN or Luton was whenI initially saw it it was on the same southbound track as dozens of EZYs which I see every clear day.
However when it turned toward the east it by my guestimation pretty much go right over Ockham.I doubt it it came from Farnbough as I live close enough to hear anthing that noisy depart from there but the special routing comment certainly seems to make sense to me.Maybe someone back on the spotters forum will know where it came from that day
Thanks again
PB
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No Antonov has operated into Farnborough or Lasham in recent times to my knowledge. Just the type "4 fan Antonov", and the colour details ("glude"???) doesn't help too much. I'm assuming you saw a propellor-driven aircraft?
There are AN22s (huge, four engine with contra-rotating props), rarely seen over here but have been to East Midlands in recent months; AN12s - smaller, high-wing props similar to C-130s which are regular visitors to the UK (one over my house a couple of days back); there are also AN26s - smaller, twin-prop, high-wing aircraft which, again, are fairly regular in UK airspace. The AN12, if that is what you saw, has a very distinct loud engine noise quite unlike any similar aircraft. AN12s and the much bigger jet the AN124 operate into Brize Norton so might be seen heading east from there?
On 25 August an AN12 came from the west at about 18,000 ft, over Camberley and then turned northwest to Luton, where it briefly stopped off.
To check the identity, do an Google search for those types I've mentioned and you should find some pictures to help.
Lastly, I live in Finchampstead not far from you and keep my eyes to the skies so always interested in unusual sightings.
There are AN22s (huge, four engine with contra-rotating props), rarely seen over here but have been to East Midlands in recent months; AN12s - smaller, high-wing props similar to C-130s which are regular visitors to the UK (one over my house a couple of days back); there are also AN26s - smaller, twin-prop, high-wing aircraft which, again, are fairly regular in UK airspace. The AN12, if that is what you saw, has a very distinct loud engine noise quite unlike any similar aircraft. AN12s and the much bigger jet the AN124 operate into Brize Norton so might be seen heading east from there?
On 25 August an AN12 came from the west at about 18,000 ft, over Camberley and then turned northwest to Luton, where it briefly stopped off.
To check the identity, do an Google search for those types I've mentioned and you should find some pictures to help.
Lastly, I live in Finchampstead not far from you and keep my eyes to the skies so always interested in unusual sightings.
Thread Starter
HD
thanks for the reply
For my sins I cant stop looking Skywards at anything that strikes me as slightly unusual.I never grew out of growing up on top of LHR I guess
Couple of points
I was using Fan in the Turbofan sense - being old enough to remember them as Fanjets as opposed to stright through jets and the colour was just my poor typing- though how I got from Blue to glude I dont know
It was an AN124 not a prop and would have flown a due south track just to the west of you in Finchampstead and I assumed it was doing an unusual departure as heavy slow climber. I posted my remark becaiuse the following day I saw two 73s (or AB319/320s ) do the same thing only apparently higher up which did puzzle me because all the aircraft folowed tracks I had not seen before and as Isaid at the beginning I look upwards far too often for a grown up
PB
thanks for the reply
For my sins I cant stop looking Skywards at anything that strikes me as slightly unusual.I never grew out of growing up on top of LHR I guess
Couple of points
I was using Fan in the Turbofan sense - being old enough to remember them as Fanjets as opposed to stright through jets and the colour was just my poor typing- though how I got from Blue to glude I dont know
It was an AN124 not a prop and would have flown a due south track just to the west of you in Finchampstead and I assumed it was doing an unusual departure as heavy slow climber. I posted my remark becaiuse the following day I saw two 73s (or AB319/320s ) do the same thing only apparently higher up which did puzzle me because all the aircraft folowed tracks I had not seen before and as Isaid at the beginning I look upwards far too often for a grown up
PB
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OK.. AN124s frequently fly into Brize Norton. Take a look here:
http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=667002
That one has been to Brize several times in the last week. When inbound they usually pass north of us, heading west, at about 10-12,000ft (FL100-120) descending. I haven't seen one outbound but when heading for Europe they presumably pass near us, or maybe north of Heathrow and out towards Clacton.
I too was brought up near London Airport which is why I became obsessed with aeroplanes at an early ag. I'm 63 and still can't stop looking up at them - and watching them on SBS!! Sad I guess!
http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=667002
That one has been to Brize several times in the last week. When inbound they usually pass north of us, heading west, at about 10-12,000ft (FL100-120) descending. I haven't seen one outbound but when heading for Europe they presumably pass near us, or maybe north of Heathrow and out towards Clacton.
I too was brought up near London Airport which is why I became obsessed with aeroplanes at an early ag. I'm 63 and still can't stop looking up at them - and watching them on SBS!! Sad I guess!
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Just to clarify, I/Bounds to Brize, travelling west, cross CPT area at FL160, unless they are crusing 'low level' to start with.
However, HD could be correct in his assumption that this was a Brize departure. All supposition as I did not see the flight, but one explanation is that given a relatively poor climb rate, chances are the A/C was positioned on the south side of Cotswold CTA/L9 by Sector 23, heading about 105 degrees, to keep it clear of EGLL CPT outbounds. Transferred to TC OCK, then once it had some height on, it would have been turned in the general direction of BPK or CLN and handed off to TC CAPITAL.
Thats IF it is the aircraft in question and is only a guess at what happened. However it is a very feasible explanation and it is entirely possible the A/C was in the Farnborough area in the mid-teen FLs.
However, HD could be correct in his assumption that this was a Brize departure. All supposition as I did not see the flight, but one explanation is that given a relatively poor climb rate, chances are the A/C was positioned on the south side of Cotswold CTA/L9 by Sector 23, heading about 105 degrees, to keep it clear of EGLL CPT outbounds. Transferred to TC OCK, then once it had some height on, it would have been turned in the general direction of BPK or CLN and handed off to TC CAPITAL.
Thats IF it is the aircraft in question and is only a guess at what happened. However it is a very feasible explanation and it is entirely possible the A/C was in the Farnborough area in the mid-teen FLs.
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<<I/Bounds to Brize, travelling west, cross CPT area at FL160,>>
anotherthing... I fully accept that FL160 is the agreed level but be assured they've gone through WOD lower than that - presumably "tied up" between sectors. In fact last week (I think it was) an AN124 was at FL80 as it left the airway north of CPT inbound to Brize.
anotherthing... I fully accept that FL160 is the agreed level but be assured they've gone through WOD lower than that - presumably "tied up" between sectors. In fact last week (I think it was) an AN124 was at FL80 as it left the airway north of CPT inbound to Brize.
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HD - highly possible, though very unusual and certainly not
Not-withstanding coordination, TC CAP cannot descend these A/C to FL160 until WOD due to TC OCK airspace and then they would hand them to S23. S23 would then need to get descent from TC OCK, avoiding the EGKK inbounds from Midlands (working TC WILLO) at FL150, so although feasible, it would be the exception.
Just giving the original poster the correct, current, info (based on my knowledge as a current south and capital controller.)
Obviously coordination on the day can make things vary, but it would be the rare exception for a Brize inbound that had the type of cruise profile that the AN124 would have had to be that low... not the rule, and it would probably have to be very quiet traffic wise for it to happen too.
That one has been to Brize several times in the last week. When inbound they usually pass north of us, heading west, at about 10-12,000ft (FL100-120) descending.
Just giving the original poster the correct, current, info (based on my knowledge as a current south and capital controller.)
Obviously coordination on the day can make things vary, but it would be the rare exception for a Brize inbound that had the type of cruise profile that the AN124 would have had to be that low... not the rule, and it would probably have to be very quiet traffic wise for it to happen too.
Thread Starter
Thanks to all for comments
The a/c in question-definately a An124 was headed due south over me when it turned or began a turn due east -one thing that struck me was the enormous turning radius-not surprised though given size and weight.
Essentially it changed heading from the normal N-S track over me for flights heading to Midhurst to flying pretty much over the area where Ockham VOR is and then heading due East.
To me from what people have said would make sense if it departed Brize Norton and made a right turn out towards say Westcott and then being high enough to avoid blundering through Heathrow westerly/south westerley/south departures and the Ockham hold at sort of 8-10,000 feet turned south and then east to Dover. I do see a lot of BZN outbounds over camberley-Hercs VC10s etc and they seem to be in mid teens en route to Dover so I assume a heavy AN 124 might not make it high enough to cross that very busy area safely and had to add a few track miles to get high enough
Anyway my original query was about whether this was some sort of new SID from LTN or STN and thats been answered
Thanks again
PB
The a/c in question-definately a An124 was headed due south over me when it turned or began a turn due east -one thing that struck me was the enormous turning radius-not surprised though given size and weight.
Essentially it changed heading from the normal N-S track over me for flights heading to Midhurst to flying pretty much over the area where Ockham VOR is and then heading due East.
To me from what people have said would make sense if it departed Brize Norton and made a right turn out towards say Westcott and then being high enough to avoid blundering through Heathrow westerly/south westerley/south departures and the Ockham hold at sort of 8-10,000 feet turned south and then east to Dover. I do see a lot of BZN outbounds over camberley-Hercs VC10s etc and they seem to be in mid teens en route to Dover so I assume a heavy AN 124 might not make it high enough to cross that very busy area safely and had to add a few track miles to get high enough
Anyway my original query was about whether this was some sort of new SID from LTN or STN and thats been answered
Thanks again
PB
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Here is the track from Google of the outbound AN124 from Brize yesterday Thursday 13 Sept, although I cannot recall the time. Based on SBS and the diagram, it would have been around 20,000 ft passing Camberley.
http://www.members.aol.com/berksbirds/AN124.JPG
http://www.members.aol.com/berksbirds/AN124.JPG
I say there boy
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AFAIK the standard procedure for Brize easterly departures is to get them up to FL190+ in an orbit if necessary so they can work TC Capital over London to keep them out of the TMA dogfighting below.
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foghorn,
Almost correct. It's FL180 to be level before entering CAP airspace due to all the other traffic, but sometimes (again the exception and very much traffic dependant) TC CAP will take them in the climb... problem being the FL150 EGKK inbounds coming from Midlands (amongst quite a few others). Then CAP will Climb them to FL210 and hand off to LMS.
HD
Impressive bit of kit you have there!
Almost correct. It's FL180 to be level before entering CAP airspace due to all the other traffic, but sometimes (again the exception and very much traffic dependant) TC CAP will take them in the climb... problem being the FL150 EGKK inbounds coming from Midlands (amongst quite a few others). Then CAP will Climb them to FL210 and hand off to LMS.
HD
Impressive bit of kit you have there!
