Avoiding WX
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Doors,
At Aberdeen we have a lightning detection system superimposed on the radar displays.This was after a 332 ditched after losing it's tailrotor due to a lightning strike.It gives a history of lightning,but how accurate is not known.However if we give the heads up about any activity,the choppers certainly give it a wide berth.
At Aberdeen we have a lightning detection system superimposed on the radar displays.This was after a 332 ditched after losing it's tailrotor due to a lightning strike.It gives a history of lightning,but how accurate is not known.However if we give the heads up about any activity,the choppers certainly give it a wide berth.
Ohcirrej
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Originally Posted by "Doors to Automatic
Just out of interest given that the industry is so highly technological why on earth do ATCOs not have weather radar imagary sumperimposed on their displays?
Beady Eye
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Beady Eye
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The technology is certainly available........the system we use here in Canada allows for "layering" of information on the screen, and we have a piss poor weather overlay and a fairly good lightning display. However, the company won't shell out for a real-time weather feed to drive the overlay (so I'm told)
BD
Define 'weather'. Thats just one of the difficulties.
Pretty much all the hazards that an aircraft is going to want to avoid are related to precipitation, though there are obviously difficulties in that the picture that the aircraft sees is not necessarily the same as what a ground based system would see.
That said, I remain stunned that UK ATC doesn't have some sort of precip picture superimposable. It might not be perfect but it would surely offer some clue that deviations around particular areas are very likely to be requested.
Beady Eye
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But does that apply to you personally or every pilot? Should ATC compel pilots to take vectors to avoid 'weather'?
As I've said previously what can be seen is precipitation but what it consists of is very difficult to know.
And I remain stunned that people think there is some sort of magic radar out there that can interpret whether 'weather' contains icing or severe turbulence etc. etc. You sort of answered your own question anyway, ATC getting some clue that deviations may be requested. You know deviations are going to come when aircraft start asking for them, otherwise its not really possible to know whether any representation of 'weather' depicted on a radar screen is of the sort a pilot would want to avoid or not until you're told.
BD
Pretty much all the hazards that an aircraft is going to want to avoid are related to precipitation, though there are obviously difficulties in that the picture that the aircraft sees is not necessarily the same as what a ground based system would see.
That said, I remain stunned that UK ATC doesn't have some sort of precip picture superimposable. It might not be perfect but it would surely offer some clue that deviations around particular areas are very likely to be requested.
BD
That said, I remain stunned that UK ATC doesn't have some sort of precip picture superimposable.
Beady Eye
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I agree with BD.
Some years ago I worked at a unit whose radar showed precipitation. One pilot asked if I could vector him clear of weather, and I gave him a nice clear course between two cells. 'Thanks' he said afterwards. 'that was the roughest bl**dy ride I've had in years.'
A few months later another guy asked if he could deviate due weather, and promptly flew through the heaviest clutter on my screen.
So it's no use relying on the clutter that shows up on the shorter-wavelength ATC primary radars. If ATC are going to have radar to show 'weather', it has got to be to the same spec as aircraft weather radar.
Some years ago I worked at a unit whose radar showed precipitation. One pilot asked if I could vector him clear of weather, and I gave him a nice clear course between two cells. 'Thanks' he said afterwards. 'that was the roughest bl**dy ride I've had in years.'
A few months later another guy asked if he could deviate due weather, and promptly flew through the heaviest clutter on my screen.
So it's no use relying on the clutter that shows up on the shorter-wavelength ATC primary radars. If ATC are going to have radar to show 'weather', it has got to be to the same spec as aircraft weather radar.
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There is a huge difference between here in the UK and in the USA.
CAA/NATS seem to have gone down a route of screening out weather completely, whereas in the States, the en route controllers regularly advise you of precipitation ahead and give very good range and bearing info. When you get into the TMA, I never even think about weather in the States because the controllers are slick enough to vector you around what they can see on their screens.
In the UK, they seem oblivious to what is around and regularly ask you to point directly toward a cb.
Not the controller's fault - I believe it is the equipment.
Now, if we can stop the Americans from bleating about turbulence and ride reports all the time, we can have a quiet flight - that is the pilots, not the controllers
CAA/NATS seem to have gone down a route of screening out weather completely, whereas in the States, the en route controllers regularly advise you of precipitation ahead and give very good range and bearing info. When you get into the TMA, I never even think about weather in the States because the controllers are slick enough to vector you around what they can see on their screens.
In the UK, they seem oblivious to what is around and regularly ask you to point directly toward a cb.
Not the controller's fault - I believe it is the equipment.
Now, if we can stop the Americans from bleating about turbulence and ride reports all the time, we can have a quiet flight - that is the pilots, not the controllers
BlueSkye
Once told a JAX controller who denied use of military airspace (in C-5) that "tell that mil traffic, this mil traffic needs some of his space NOW" It worked!
Once told a JAX controller who denied use of military airspace (in C-5) that "tell that mil traffic, this mil traffic needs some of his space NOW" It worked!
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At least in the US the NEXRAD radar is a major improvement over what we had for years. After using it for a few years it is obvious it is fairly accurate. Of course when an aircraft that is recieving data linked weather, requests to deviate they are looking at the same information the en-route controller sees. The data only updates every 6 or 10 minutes depending on the mode it is operating in.
There are still alot of coverage gaps, check out the coverage link on BendixKing's website.
https://www.bendixking.com/wingman/static/FIS/faq.jsp
For more information on NEXRAD
http://weather.noaa.gov/radar/radinfo/radinfo.html
There are still alot of coverage gaps, check out the coverage link on BendixKing's website.
https://www.bendixking.com/wingman/static/FIS/faq.jsp
For more information on NEXRAD
http://weather.noaa.gov/radar/radinfo/radinfo.html
Beady Eye
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When you get into the TMA, I never even think about weather in the States because the controllers are slick enough to vector you around what they can see on their screens.
In the UK, they seem oblivious to what is around and regularly ask you to point directly toward a cb.
Not the controller's fault - I believe it is the equipment.
In the UK, they seem oblivious to what is around and regularly ask you to point directly toward a cb.
Not the controller's fault - I believe it is the equipment.
BD
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I'm with BDiONU with this - it's all very well having the facility to have weather superimposed on our radars, but how many times have you,as an ATCO, been asked for a turn by one A/C on a particular route to avoid weather, just to have the next A/C a couple of minutes (or less) behind, fly straight through the 'weather', even when the A/C are the same type..... you even get this happening between A/C of the same company, so it's not just SOPs that dictate what pilots want to do!
Pilots have weather radar and know how to interpret it to the standards required in their company SOPs.... we as ATCOs should let them get on with this, i.e. let them do what they are trained for, whilst they let us do what we are trained to do - (for example - don't use TCAS as a pseudo ATC radar
).
If the weather is soo bad, we will be putting MDIs etc on to reduce the traffic to enable us to cope... having weather info on our radars would not change this.
When there is weather about, we have enough on our plates as ATCOS making sure that we keep A/C that would not ordinarily be traffic to each other, or indeed would not even normally be in our sector safely separated....
trying to be 'slick' and pass weather info to every pilot, or offer vectors to every pilot when a) they can see the weather themselves and b) it might not even be significant to them, can only make our job harder, or at least it will decrease our efficiency and distract us from our main task i.e. seperating A/C!
In TC, our GS suites have a weather radar so the GS can give us an indication that there is weather about, and give us the general trend of it.
At Swanwick in the AC OPS room, their may be an argument that as every position is manned by two ATCOS (TAC/Planner), then the planners display could have weather super-imposed on it - but merely for information.
Just my two pennies worth... I think th esystem works as it is, but it is dependant on pilots ASKING for deviation, not telling us they have commenced it!
Pilots have weather radar and know how to interpret it to the standards required in their company SOPs.... we as ATCOs should let them get on with this, i.e. let them do what they are trained for, whilst they let us do what we are trained to do - (for example - don't use TCAS as a pseudo ATC radar
).If the weather is soo bad, we will be putting MDIs etc on to reduce the traffic to enable us to cope... having weather info on our radars would not change this.
When there is weather about, we have enough on our plates as ATCOS making sure that we keep A/C that would not ordinarily be traffic to each other, or indeed would not even normally be in our sector safely separated....
trying to be 'slick' and pass weather info to every pilot, or offer vectors to every pilot when a) they can see the weather themselves and b) it might not even be significant to them, can only make our job harder, or at least it will decrease our efficiency and distract us from our main task i.e. seperating A/C!
In TC, our GS suites have a weather radar so the GS can give us an indication that there is weather about, and give us the general trend of it.
At Swanwick in the AC OPS room, their may be an argument that as every position is manned by two ATCOS (TAC/Planner), then the planners display could have weather super-imposed on it - but merely for information.
Just my two pennies worth... I think th esystem works as it is, but it is dependant on pilots ASKING for deviation, not telling us they have commenced it!
Bellwether&cloudbuster
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Well I am sure there will be invented soon a way of downloading the real time picture from incoming aircraft. Say you have two or three around and take a snapshot picture of what they see on their radars and use computer wizardry to combine it and upload it into ATC somehow.
Another idea might be being able to place on the radar view a marker so when incoming says "big cell 20 miles north of field about 320 degrees" you can temp mark it on the radar display and it removes itself after a so many minutes live time. Maybe it is already done.
But, and the big but is, if ATCO's take on responsibility for providing weather information based on their display then if it goes wrong you can depend on the lawyers to start shifting the blame from pilots to ATCO's for any incidents arising out of wrong vectors. Probably best stays as is!
Another idea might be being able to place on the radar view a marker so when incoming says "big cell 20 miles north of field about 320 degrees" you can temp mark it on the radar display and it removes itself after a so many minutes live time. Maybe it is already done.
But, and the big but is, if ATCO's take on responsibility for providing weather information based on their display then if it goes wrong you can depend on the lawyers to start shifting the blame from pilots to ATCO's for any incidents arising out of wrong vectors. Probably best stays as is!
