90 degree LLZ cuts.
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90 degree LLZ cuts.
A few weeks ago I had to divert to a field that was non-radar controlled.
We were told to track direct to the Initial Fix, which also had a published holding facility, for ILS approach.
Runway was 102*, heading to I.F. was 005 with track 001*. Tracking to I.F. was via FMC. Cleared for ILS approach upon LLZ intercept. No deviation left was permitted from inbound track to I.F. due traffic. There are no published STARs for this airport.
Tower controller gasped surprise as I entered a parallel entry overhead the IF before I intercepted the LLZ.
Question:
Some STARs specify near 90* cuts of the LLZ just before the IF. If there are no ADF needles to provide clues to intercept (e.g. the new Kuala Lumpur airport), then I must rely on the FMC LOC CAP ACTIVE function of LNAV to achieve a LLZ intercept without overshooting. If I relied on LLZ needle movement or F/D Capture mode alone, I'd shoot through it at normal B744 capture speeds.
However this is whilst under radar control. Outside radar coverage, as I understand the rules, full IFR procedures apply unless there is a published STAR for that runway indicating otherwise, that caters for a near 90* cut.
Any Controllers care to comment?
We were told to track direct to the Initial Fix, which also had a published holding facility, for ILS approach.
Runway was 102*, heading to I.F. was 005 with track 001*. Tracking to I.F. was via FMC. Cleared for ILS approach upon LLZ intercept. No deviation left was permitted from inbound track to I.F. due traffic. There are no published STARs for this airport.
Tower controller gasped surprise as I entered a parallel entry overhead the IF before I intercepted the LLZ.
Question:
Some STARs specify near 90* cuts of the LLZ just before the IF. If there are no ADF needles to provide clues to intercept (e.g. the new Kuala Lumpur airport), then I must rely on the FMC LOC CAP ACTIVE function of LNAV to achieve a LLZ intercept without overshooting. If I relied on LLZ needle movement or F/D Capture mode alone, I'd shoot through it at normal B744 capture speeds.
However this is whilst under radar control. Outside radar coverage, as I understand the rules, full IFR procedures apply unless there is a published STAR for that runway indicating otherwise, that caters for a near 90* cut.
Any Controllers care to comment?
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: UK
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Sounds like a made up approach. I cannot think of a UK airfield where this is a laid down procedure. With the advent of FMS and self positioned approaches it would be reasonable to clear an aircraft to a centre fix and then allow a self position. What you were probably experiencing was an outbound being separated against you with deemed track separation.
To not allow a deviation for self positioning is pretty naive. We have plenty of DME arc procedures which are the steam driven version of this type of approach. Perhaps it was an inexperienced ATCO getting it wrong. As ever the maxim should always be "if you are not comfortable say something" on your side and the ATCO should have tried to explain what he was doing and what restrictions needed to be on your route.
Presumably there was some cockpit discussion of what was going to happen. If possible consider ATC as part of your CRM thought processes.
Merry Xmas.
To not allow a deviation for self positioning is pretty naive. We have plenty of DME arc procedures which are the steam driven version of this type of approach. Perhaps it was an inexperienced ATCO getting it wrong. As ever the maxim should always be "if you are not comfortable say something" on your side and the ATCO should have tried to explain what he was doing and what restrictions needed to be on your route.
Presumably there was some cockpit discussion of what was going to happen. If possible consider ATC as part of your CRM thought processes.
Merry Xmas.
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Thans for the reply 2six4,
This was in a non-radar environment and no, it wasn't anywhere near the UK.
Traffic was clear on the LLZ and we were the only aircraft near it.
The I.F. LLZ track was 102*. The published I.F. holding pattern was a 1 min Right Hand hold, hence my parallel entry. If I were coming up to the fix on a heading of 005*, and no deviation left to permit say a 30* intercept, then how can I legally just intercept the 102* LLZ from a heading of 005*?
The TWR controller advised clear to intercept LLZ and report when established inbound. We assumed he knew this would require a parallel entry over the IF before LLZ intercept. After a few minutes he asked our position and apparently was startled to find I hadn't simply captured the LLZ at the IF. Wx was IMC at the time till approx 1500ft AGL.
Subsequent discussion with ATC after landing gave the broken-English reply 'well everybody else (local traffic) does it!'
The country in question isn't exactly noted for its procedural knowledge.
[This message has been edited by Captain IF Snailtrails (edited 26 December 1998).]
This was in a non-radar environment and no, it wasn't anywhere near the UK.
Traffic was clear on the LLZ and we were the only aircraft near it.
The I.F. LLZ track was 102*. The published I.F. holding pattern was a 1 min Right Hand hold, hence my parallel entry. If I were coming up to the fix on a heading of 005*, and no deviation left to permit say a 30* intercept, then how can I legally just intercept the 102* LLZ from a heading of 005*?
The TWR controller advised clear to intercept LLZ and report when established inbound. We assumed he knew this would require a parallel entry over the IF before LLZ intercept. After a few minutes he asked our position and apparently was startled to find I hadn't simply captured the LLZ at the IF. Wx was IMC at the time till approx 1500ft AGL.
Subsequent discussion with ATC after landing gave the broken-English reply 'well everybody else (local traffic) does it!'
The country in question isn't exactly noted for its procedural knowledge.
[This message has been edited by Captain IF Snailtrails (edited 26 December 1998).]
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Capt Snailtrails,
If it's any help, I would have done exactly what you did. I haven't operated much in your part of the world, but I've done a lot in Africa over the last 20 years - same problems, different accents! I've encountered the situation you describe at least 3 times that I can think of and have done exactly what you did each time.
Who says it's all sitting watching the autopilot and not thinking these days!!
Tailwinds every day for you in 1999!!
If it's any help, I would have done exactly what you did. I haven't operated much in your part of the world, but I've done a lot in Africa over the last 20 years - same problems, different accents! I've encountered the situation you describe at least 3 times that I can think of and have done exactly what you did each time.
Who says it's all sitting watching the autopilot and not thinking these days!!
Tailwinds every day for you in 1999!!
