Are Gulf Air back to their old tricks?

[sirwa69]

This is only a rumour, by that I mean that I have only heard it from one source at the moment.

Apparently an Expat trainer has recently been given his jotters because he was failing too many locals.

If this is true then it looks like Gulf Air are going back to the culture which put an incompetent captain on an A320 in August 2000. :uhoh:

If it is true then I am scared sh!tless as I travel around the gulf with them, lots!. :eek:

Anybody out there got any more info on this, hopefully someone can tell me it's all rubbish and put my mind at ease

On On

[Roadrunner]

Seriously.
As it's all the will of God, how could you ever expect much to change at Gulf Air re the prang of the A320.
Sad, but true.

[ia1166]

just a rumour. nobody in training wing sacked as far as i know. and anyway sirwa69, you are only a hanger on so go forth and multiply

oh and another thing. its pilots proffesional rumour network. if your not a pilot you don't get an input sirwa69 go off and have you@re own life

[A300Man]

ia1166

Please don't be so rude to members on this forum. Everyone is entitled to their say. Your comments were unnecessary. Not everyone involved in the aviation industry (or who has an interest in the aviation industry) is a pilot.

Best regards,
A300Man

[CaptSnails]

A300Man although your comments are valid and above all respectable, please understand that not all are who they seem to be here at Pprune.

The cloak of anonymity is a great tool for those who have a hidden agenda or just want to spread malicious rumours. I think that is what ia1166 is reacting to. Besides he is talking from a position of insider knowledge as he is a trainer and has first hand experience from the training department.

I too have never heard such an incident and can assure you from what I know that the training department has a mixed bag of trainers, both local and expat who work together with a common objective. As one would expect the experience level is mixed and some trainers are better than others but that cannot in anyway imply that they operate outside the guidelines of training.

Regards
Snails

[sirwa69]

Guys what is the matter with you? I would expect more from people who are always telling us how highly trained they are.
Even more so from someone who is a professional trainer.
If you had read my post properly and assimilated it you would have noticed.

Firstly I qualified what I was about to say:
This is only a rumour, by that I mean that I have only heard it from one source at the moment.

This was because I had heard it from a Gulf Air pilot and I wanted to know if there was any truth.

When I heard this I did not want to believe it.
hopefully someone can tell me it's all rubbish and put my mind at ease

So the purpose of the post was twofold:
1: to find out if there was any truth in the story to which ia1166 did not exactly help with his as far as i know
CaptSnails was much more effective in quashing the rumour.

2: In the unlikely event that this story was true then it would have been in everybody’s interest for it to have been made public. As it is not then there is no need.

ia1166
Pprune is not just for pilots but also for anyone who takes a lot of interest in the industry, and that does include the SLF. If you don't believe me then ask Danny.
You are not the only person on the aircraft, I want to know all I can about the men and machinery I entrust my life too.

Your rudeness appals me, I wonder how you got through your CRM assessment.

A300man
Thank you

CaptSnails
I do not require the cloak of anonymity for myself but if I posted under my own name then many people who know me would be able to work out fairly quickly where I was getting my information. I have posted many things on Pprune which have started as rumours and have proved to be correct. Some of these stories were helped into the public domain because of Pprune. If my identity were known then some of the people who have told me these stories would be vulnerable to repercussions.
I do not post on Pprune to be malicious but to merely try to find the truth. I have no hidden agenda, my agenda is completely out in the open and it is to ensure that Gulf Air never compromise safety.

And finally: As I said I did not start this story. There is at least one Gulf Air pilot who is telling this story at dinner parties.

Regards

Sirwa69 :ok:

[GLOC]

Sorry for a minute there I thought I was back in the "Dunnunda and Godzone" threads with all the whinging that's going on!

Now Ladies and Gentlemen, clean, informative, and fun posts please.

:D

[CaptSnails]

Sirwa69,

Thanks for your "well called for" reply, let me say that I'm not implying that you personally have a hidden agenda or malicious intentions. From your posts through the years I know what your intentions are and I fully support them. I was trying to justify my colleagues reply. If I offended you, please accept my apologies, that was not my intention.

Unfortunately we all take advantage of anonymity here at Pprune and as long as it's done with the right intentions it serves the public interest as well as our collective benefit. However as I'm sure you will admit this is not always the case. Pprune gives the opportunity to every Tom Dick and Harry to sit at a keyboard and come up with all kinds of accusations. I guess this is the price we pay for freedom of speach.

[CNTIAM]

Sirwa69
Your information is absolutely correct. Both the Training Manager A320 & Head of Flight Standards & Training where asked to resign, after they failed an Omani "Captain to be", because he totally screwed up an approach into Tehran, Followed, by a go-around (which was called out by the trainers in the jump seat) which he screwed up as well.
Unfortunately this airline has a history of similar incidents, every time an influential Omani fails “HE” then goes to “DGCAM Oman” and they force the airline to get those involved out.
I am an insider and am willing to give you any information regarding this incident or any other.
Dear “ia1166” and “captSnails” if you two really work for Gulf Air, then surely you must be aware of this rather scandalous case. I am very disappointment at fact that there are responsible professionals, who try to keep this sort of criminal acts hidden.
What is extremely frightening is that this particular Captain which has a history of weakness and failures and had a couple of goes at command before, is now a line captain flying innocent fare paying passengers.
:mad:

[sirwa69]

CNTIAM

I did really want to believe that it was an untrue rumour. Now I am very worried. I am firmly of the belief that this type of thing must be given to the press immediately so that the managers realise that no matter who is pulling the strings it will not be tolerated by the paying pax. I do not as yet know what to do but I will be giving this some serious thought.

I would implore anyone reading this who has more details to think seriously about not keeping quiet, that is how accidents happen and people get killed. Your family may be on that flight.

Whislteblowing is not the best way to keep your job but it just might save your life.

[ac100]

Sirwa 69,

I, too can confirm the rumour as well as adding another upgrade case that brings tears to the eyes of professional pilots. A certain qatari employee upgarded in recent months had to have a 4 hours sim session on visual approaches alone. The remainder of his upgrade you can probably imagine. No changes at GF and there will never be any inthe future.

AC100.

[Xeque]

I was in the Diplomat Hotel having a beer with a commercial pilot friend when CNN first broke the news of the A320 crash. As we watched the TV in the bar we saw and heard the lights and sirens streaming over the Muharraq causeway - sadly not needed.

In a small, closely knit community like Bahrain (expats and locals together) something like the GF A320 crash hits a lot of people very hard. Most of us knew someone who was on that flight.

In the subsequent months, as we waited for Gulf Air to finally release a true account of what had taken place, it seemed impossible that the company would not radically change it's attitudes and operating practices and for a while it seemed that, indeed they had.

Now this. Can it really be true? Are things returning to "normal" at GF.

There was a time in the 70's when I and many others would choose the GF 5 Star Tristar service over BA and most of the other European Airlines. The service was impeccable, the crews excellent and the administration respected.

This is very sad news.

[TCAS]

Two B767 Training Managers lost thier posts and one resigned because they wouldn't pass a weak but influential Omani second officer whose brother works for DGCA Oman (the Gulf Air licencing authority)!!

[CaptSnails]

Goodness me, you guys make it sound horrific here at GF. Obviously you are either asleep or love old cold war cloak and dagger scenarios.

Since the GF 072 accident have you not noticed any changes?
Let’s state some facts

1. Imposed speed limit below 5000ft
2. Clearly defined in VOL 6 that the company encourages the execution of a go around in the event of not being stabilized on approach
3. Prohibition of a 360 on approach
4. No circle to land.
5. A complete and up to date CRM course for all Tech crew and Cabin Crew
6. A specific course to train Instructors and Checkers on non technical issues involving CRM during checking and training (NOTECHS Course)
7. Constant training workshops to keep trainers and checkers up to date
8. Integration of CRM in training and checking with the aid of video debriefing to facilitate teamwork and the practical application in the flight deck of CRM.
9. Monthly safety publication.
10. Integration of all fleets training objectives and establishment of common goals.

And these are just a few that come to mind immediately. To say that the Airline has not done anything since the crash of 072 is both wrong and unfair. Only recently we received notification that the next topic of the CRM course will be the 072 crash and analysis of the human factors involved. If you ask me the Airline is making a serious effort to learn from the past, correct mistakes and raise our standards.

CNTIAM yes the particular events did take place in THR. The line check was below standard and the person involved was stopped temporarily until a further training program established for him to address his shortfalls. Judging from your posts it seems to me that you have the wrong attitude here in regard to how a command applicant has to be dealt with. A person who has passed an assessment, interview, passed simulator training and passed line training but failed a line check according to you should be strung up to dry. If this was the case I’m afraid there would be very few captains around.
Captains my friend are not born captains, they are made through constant training.

Regarding your statement that you’re an insider and you have first hand knowledge that the FST Manager and the MFT A320 were asked to resign I say go ahead mate and show me your proof because I know both very well and that’s not their story. Nowhere near in fact.

Ac100 the particular applicant had an additional sim session for raw date flying, not visual approaches as you state. I’d like to see how you would react if during your command you had a problem with say non-precision approaches and the airline decided instead of dealing with your shortfalls and improving your skills to just fail you and stop your training. Would you or the airline be better off?

Cut the crap people, there is a serious effort to change this airline in all departments. If you want to do something to contribute start by changing your attitude and see the glass half full and not half empty.

My two cents worth
Regards
Snails

[CNTIAM]

CaptSnails
Yes I am an insider and I know both of them more than you will ever know them.
1. MFST Captain Adel AlAnsari has resigned and some guy from BMI is taking his position.
2. TM a320 Captain G.Cristofides, is now replaced by Captain B.Dall(which I might add is an excellent man), in fact captain Cristofides’s checker license was revoked all together.
Nobody said that changes to SOP did not happen, and nobody said that the trainee involved should have been hung, but the fact remains that every time someone influential fails, DGCAM forces the airline to do away with the people involved, then even with further training no body will dare fail that particular crew member. What I am personally worried about is that trainers, checkers and management are all scared of exercising their powers and thereby allowing certain individuals to be in positions which hi/she is not qualified to be.
You accuse me of having the wrong attitude. My dear friend, my attitude is to protect the safety of this airline and innocent lives. But an attitude like yours, which is trying to cover up something so serious, is what scares me!!!

[ac100]

Dear CaptSnails,

I would suggest that before you discredit others on this forum you actually obtain facts. My knowledge of the additional sims sessions did not come from thrid parties but the TRI's involved with the training of the candidate themselves. I did not read it and i certainly did not acquire the information from anyone other than the people involved.

As far as the incident in THR, well once again the horse's mouth played a large part in my confirming the above statements made by CNTIAM on that paticular matter.

No one likes to hear of problems of such nature at any airline, however, there is and always be the problem at GF until politics is removed from the 1st floor. As pilots we are asked to do the same in the flight deck, Maybe that should practiced and not just told to line pilots from the 1st floor.

There are short falls and the have to attended too. If not, the reputation of the airline will suffer further. Yes, it is suffering and the out come of that will be seen when the market becomes one for pilots to pick and choose where they go rather than airlines having an abundance of bodies to put in the flight decks of the aircrafts.

I would advise a rethink on your thoughts regarding these matters.

All the Best,
AC100.

[CaptSnails]

CNTIAM,

You said
“Yes I am an insider and I know both of them more than you will ever know them.”

Considering that this is an anonymous forum aren’t you presupposing a bit too much. For all you know I may well be one of them.

My dear friend first of all because I’m optimistic and support the company, you have the gall to say that I’m trying to cover up something. You have no idea who I am and what my principles are so please keep your comments to a non personal level.

No one said that till now DGCAM is not to blame for many of our problems. If we like it or not we live in a society were politics is intertwined with business and we have to learn to live with it and deal with it in the best way possible. I fail to see what your point is. Are you expecting a single manager to change the system overnight?
Are you aware of the fact that DGCAM was recently replaced?

EVER WONDER WHY?

You said
“What I am personally worried about is that trainers, checkers and management are all scared of exercising their powers and thereby allowing certain individuals to be in positions which hi/she is not qualified to be.”
Who are you referring to, the command applicant? If so can you please advise why? Is it because he did an un-stabilized approach? I guess you have never done one yourself right?
That is precisely what I was talking about earlier. Your attitude is that he is not qualified to be a captain because he failed a line check and did an un-stabilized approach. What I’m saying is teach the guy how to avoid being un-stabilized and what to do if it does happen to him and I’d fly with him every day. If I follow your line of thought I really don’t need a training department do I? I just fail all the guys who don’t meet the mark.

Ac100 thanks for admitting you heard it from the TRI. I ask you therefore not to believe me but go directly and ask Capt. Glafkos Christofides who authorized the additional sim session as the then MFT A320. The additional session was for RAW DATA FLYING without A/P, A/THR and FD’s. Do you think we do 4 hours visual approaches for God’s sake? Not even cadets need 4 hours visual circuits.
When you get the answer from Capt. Glafkos please have at least the decency to admit it here.

Regards
Snails
:)

[millerscourt]

I seem to recall that the Captain of GF72 was highly suspect yet got checked out. One of the A320 Management ,an ex-pat of the sort that would not want to make waves left shortly thereafter to Singapore Airlines. He and his fellow countrymen are regular visitors to the 4th Floor at STC trying to ingratiate themselves with management.

[ac100]

Dear CaptSnails,

Once again you dig an even bigger hole for yourself, The approval for the extra sessions were not given by the party you mentioned. He had left the position by the time this matter took place. It was approved by the Chief Pilot, who was acting as stand in MFT. So far you have proven to me that your infomation is from third parties and that you really do not know what your talking about.

Your faith is blind and one day it will leave you in a very bad position. good luck to you. I have stated the facts and no longr interested in discussing the matter with you. I wil let others decide whoi s telling the truth.

AC100

[CaptSnails]

So go ask the CPA320 what was the content of the sim session, because I see you cleverly avoided the most important part of my previous post and conveniently said "I have stated the facts and no longr interested in discussing the matter with you."
If you're not interested in discussing then what the heck are you doing here in the first place?

Why open a discussion if at the first sign of adversity you start running. Or is it that you cannot stand someone disagreeing with you?

Ball in your court
Regards
Snails

[weeping eyes]

MR CNTIAM
1) You say "INFLUENTIAL"......I don't think those influential pilots will ever have to use their influence if they were treated FAIRLY.
2) You say "I am an insider and am willing to give you any information regarding this incident "......I wonder, will you give out the information about the review board that found both the named managers at fault?!! headed by Capt R.HILL or was he bought off?!!
3) Where are the QAR readouts to convict him? (which is said to have been taken off the A/C by hand by the First named Manager (which is against the law))
4) If a day ever comes (God forbid) where you see your career being put to an end.. I'm sure you'll be using all the "INFLUENCE" you could find!!............Oh! but I forgot!! You aren't "Omani"

LETS ALL STICK TOGETHER AND SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER, SO NO ONE HAS TO USE ANY "INFLUENCE".

AT GULF AIR WE'RE ALL GULFAIRIANS, NO OTHER NATIONALITIES

CaptSnails
I SALUTE YOU. Keep up the open mind, that's the only thing that would drive us forward

[Xeque]

Keep it up lads. This could run and run. (George W. are you online?)

[CNTIAM]

CaptSnails
Please stop beating round the bush, the point remains that trainers/managers lost their positions, simply because they were doing their job, and just incase you forgot this is how this topic started.
No matter what excuses you make and whatever tactics you use you will never be able to cover up this crime, which I consider you a part of, since you seem to be desperate to do anything to smother any smoke that has developed.

Weeping eyes,
1) Yes he was influential, that is how he managed to get two, very good trainers/manager out their positions. I don’t know what you understand by fair? My understanding is, if I fail, then I get retrained and when I achieve the required standards then and only then will I get checked out. Rather then use my influence and remove the guys that fail me.
2) I don’t need to give out any information’s regarding the outcome of the findings of the review board headed by R. Hill, since the facts speak for them selves. (R. Hill landed himself the job of HOFO and managed to get his mate from BMI into the position of FST manger in fact I wouldn’t be surprised when eventually he digs a hole for the VPO and place himself in that position. Need I to say more???!!!!!!!
3) On a recent discussion regarding QAR tapes the FS manager was stating that they only manage a meager 60% data recovery if not less at times, and they have a major problem with tapes getting lost. I remember they had a similar problem in the previous outfit I worked for, and I am sure a lot of other airlines have similar problem. (Maybe Ladies/Gentlemen experienced in this field can elaborate more on this point)
4) I hope I will never need to use any influence in this airline since I don’t have anybody with any authority.

LET US ALL STICK TOGETHER SUPPORT SAFTY & FAIRNESS

Xeque
Good on you keep posting.

[the silk one]

How remarkably easy it is to hurl accusations at named managers from behind a cloak of anonymity ..... and how brave!

[CaptSnails]

CNTIAM,

I'll quote myself this time because you did not get it the first time round.

"Are you aware of the fact that DGCAM was recently replaced?

EVER WONDER WHY?"

Nuff said
Regards mate
Snails

[sirwa69]

I was approached last night by a very senior Captain at Gulf Air whom I trust implicitly and who knows who I am.

He told me the full story of this incident and I am now very happy that Gulf Air have acted correctly and that the Omani pilot involved in this incident was the person who was in the right.

I appologise to any persons who may have been distressed by the topic and initial insinuations made.

I would go as far as to say that only the new regime at Gulf Air made it possible for justice to be done here and that under the previous regimes an injustice would have been allowed.

Thank you for all who have contributed to this topic, it did it's job and the truth has now come out.

[CaptSnails]

Sirwa69,

Thank you for you have proven to me once again that your intentions are genuine and you seek the truth whatever that may be.
For that you have my utmost respect and admiration.

Although the truth sometimes is not as impressive and glamorous as we would like it to be we have a collective obligation to make it known in fairness and justice to all.

Best Regards
Snails

[scanscanscan]

Dear Captain Snails....

In fairness and justice to all!

On the 12 August.....You said you were unaware of this incident.

Later..... You said a THR incident did occur.

Now.......You say The Truth must come out however unpleasent.

Could you now post give your final version of events and
Post the Truth the Whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth.
So help you Allah/God as applicable.

Kindest regards Scan

[CaptSnails]

Most certainly I can Scan,

On the 12th August Sirwa69 wrote:

“This is only a rumour, by that I mean that I have only heard it from one source at the moment.

Apparently an Expat trainer has recently been given his jotters because he was failing too many locals.”

To which I replied that I know no such incident, and I maintain that.

Subsequently the matter of THR came up and hence this long discussion. I neither want nor think it fare to people involved to mention the whole story here on Pprune suffice it to say that the matter in my mind was handled properly and certain insinuations made here were not true. I believe the objective of this forum is not to provide a platform for slander and gossip but the exchange of information for our mutual benefit and that of our industry.
Hope that clarifies things.
Cheers
Snails

[scanscanscan]

Dear Captain Snails....
The only thing your post clarifies to me is.... You are not now prepared to tell the truth the whole truth and nothying but the truth on pprune over this story.
Failing this.... the posts of Cntiam 4 &10Sept and ac100 and tcas
remain on file on pprune as evidence against your assurances supported now by Sirwar69.
Kind Regards Scan

[4HolerPoler]

Can we put this one to bed now? Far too liberal use of individuals names in this thread; to have removed them would have detracted from the story and I have not altered any threads but please avoid using names in the future.

4HP

[GULFPILOT76]

Everyone, just ignore snails as much as you can.
He has a reputation of hating the truth and loving negative attention. And. . . . .he hates me too, am I right? You will see his answer soon.
GP76

[sirwa69]

4HP

Please close this down now. It has served it's purpose. :ok:

[4HolerPoler]

Your wish is my command.

4HP