CDS Vs Hoon [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Smoketoomuch

20th Nov 2002, 18:57

You may enjoy this;
Today's joint news conference with Chief of Defence Staff Admiral Sir Michael Boyce and Defence secretary Geoff Hoon was 'interesting'. CDS openly speaking of overstretch, cancelled leave, low morale, extremely concerned, etc etc. Standing next to him was an incredulous and alarmed Hoon who developed a most bizarre stance - arched back, wide-eyes, slight grimace, almost as if he was having something large inserted into 'an orifice'. Hoon then went on to desperately spin the previous comments into some sort of govt approved version with CDS looking on, and looking slightly smug if I'm not mistaken. De-mob happy perhaps?

Story here;
http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/stories/20021120/fire.html

Video should appear here and will be up 'til early Thurs eve;
http://www.channel4.com/news/home/z/stories/20021119/c4n.ram

ORAC

20th Nov 2002, 19:13

Wednesday, 20 November, 2002

Forces chief issues strike warning

A continuing strike by UK firefighters would seriously undermine any possible military action against Iraq, according to the country's most senior military chief. In a blunt warning, Sir Michael Boyce said he was "extremely concerned" by the impact on military effectiveness of having 19,000 troops on stand-by for firefighting.

The comments in a news conference came as it emerged there would be no talks between the firefighters' union and employers on Wednesday.

In the House of Commons, Prime Minister Tony Blair moved to play down the suggestion troops were too over-stretched. Mr Blair stressed Sir Michael had also said the armed forces would still be able to respond to any military requirements from the government. The defence chief was pointing out troops "perfectly obviously" could not be engaged in other duties if they were firefighting, said Mr Blair.

The executive of the Fire Brigades Union (FBU) has decided the employers have not come up with a significantly different offer and declined to meet them. The employers said they would work through the night to try to improve the package on the table so talks could resume on Thursday, but warned there would be no more money. An eight-day stoppage is due to start on Friday.

Sir Michael insisted he would not send troops to strike break by crossing FBU picket lines but would expect the police to carry out that sort of operation. "The armed forces should not cross picket lines," he said. Downing Street later said troops would not cross picket lines to reach firefighting equipment, even under a police escort.

Standing alongside Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon, Sir Michael said: "I am extremely concerned about the military effectiveness of our armed forces...

"I do not have a box of 19,000 standing by for such duties so they must come from operational duties. So they are not doing their task for training for whatever eventuality may come in the future."

Sir Michael spoke of the "morale and motivation problem" of sending soldiers straight from operations in areas like Bosnia and straight into firefighting duties. That meant they were not being allowed holidays with their families or to engage in other training for future military operations, such as against Saddam Hussein.

Mr Hoon was forced to explain, stressing the government had always said it was for civilian authorities to cross picket lines to get at red fire engines if there was a continuing strike. The defence secretary also insisted the UK was prepared for a possible Iraq war and able to offer a "credible threat" of force against Saddam Hussein.

Sir Michael's comments, however, have suggested significant differences between the military and the government over the handling of a continuing strike. Ministers have previously signalled that soldiers would be used to cross picket lines but are now having to confirm that is not the case.

The Conservatives said Sir Michael had echoed their view that UK troops had long been over-stretched. Shadow defence secretary Bernard Jenkin said: "Labour has been running the Armed Forces on empty. There is nothing left in the kitty for the unexpected."

At the news conference, Mr Hoon also confirmed America had asked if the UK would provide troops for a possible Iraq war.

Recent attacks on UK planes patrolling no-fly zones would affect judgements on whether Saddam Hussein was keeping to UN resolutions, he said.

"It's clearly relevant that his forces should attack our forces carrying out humanitarian tasks in the no-fly zone," said Mr Hoon. "And certainly I agree that it is important that we recognise that this is an aggressive, belligerent state as far as our aircraft are concerned. That will go to be part of the picture the Security Council discusses but it would be a matter for the Security Council to discuss once all the evidence had been amassed."

opso

20th Nov 2002, 22:06

Well said Sir Michael!

HectorusRex

20th Nov 2002, 22:33

Certainly well said, and what a shame that he is retiring.

DuckDogers

21st Nov 2002, 07:54

Time for a coup d'etat me thinks!

"No Roman army has entered the capital for a 100 years."

Is it time we thought about doing it? As bad as it sounds until we get a real bloody defeat with 'x' quantity of body bags coming home NOBODY will sit up and pay attention apart from that which comes out of the mouths of this defunct government.

:( :( :(

swinging monkey

21st Nov 2002, 08:02

Duck Dogers,

I wholeheartedly agree with you.
The fact is that we have been involved in many conflicts fairly recently (I have been involved in Falklands, Gulf, Bosnia, Kosova, Afghanistan myself)
With the exception of a relatively 'few' losses we have all managed and coped, and won!
Sadly, until we do take a good kicking and sustain sever losses, then the perception of the government and probably the public, is that the armed forces 'will win' because we always win!
God help us all if Saddam starts to play real dirty, I fear many of us will be returning home in your plastic bags.
Come on Tony, open your eyes for Christs sake! this is not a game Sir. This is for real, and the Top Military Man is telling you Louad and Clear!!!!!

The Swinging Monkey
More Rope Caruthers!

fuel2noise

21st Nov 2002, 09:16

What a lovely interview! Hectorusrex says 'what a shame he is leaving...' real question is 'why is he leaving?'

Fact is that the armed forces are being expected to achieve everything and anything with the lowest numbers of personnel in living memory. Probably would have been fine in a steady state situation like the cold war but these days is it fine?

I wonder if Sir M had an interview without coffee after the press conference! Let's hope he continues to stand up for ordinary servicemen and women in his remaining time in post.....no one else is better placed.

maxburner

21st Nov 2002, 09:34

I thought the relative calibre of the two men was the really telling aspect of the session. CDS looking confident, speaking clearly and getting straight to the heart of the matter with some simple truths. Hoon looking shifty, clearly not listening and obviously well out of his depth. I thought CDS was a typical product of our professional armed forces, whilst Hoon was a typical product of this government.

Still cant say I support a coup, even though most sgts I know could do a better job than that arse Blair.

Wee Weasley Welshman

21st Nov 2002, 11:07

I quite like the idea that in the end CDS works for the Queen and so does Hoon. A much healthier arrangement than for Hoon to be CDS's immediate boss and employer as yesterdays press conference illustrated.

You could actually see Hoon demonstrate the dictionary definition of "squirm".

WWW

A Civilian

21st Nov 2002, 11:08

No offense, but were only going there for some flag waving to fight a media war. How hard can that be :confused:

maxburner

21st Nov 2002, 11:11

Dear Mr Civilian,

I'd like to see you try. Get back to shuffling paper, where you wont get hurt.

A Civilian

21st Nov 2002, 11:17

Im just being a realists (or a cynic depending on your point of view). Lets face it the Iraqi squaddies are going to surrender as soon as their out of sight of Sadams gestapo. An easy 75% of them probably fought in the last war and dont want to be on the receiving end of that again. America doesnt need us, not with all the toys that they have. Besides that the Americans that ive talked to would rather go it alone without anyone else involved.

swinging monkey

21st Nov 2002, 11:28

Dear Mr Civilian,

your comments are an insult to those servicemen and women who by their very actions enable you to make such sad and unwarranted remarks.
I have served in several conflicts, Falklands, Gulf war, Bosnia, Kosovo and more recently Afghanistan. Yes, casualties are much less than they used to be, but flag-waving?
If you think that flying at 50' over a featureless desert at night, with a few thousand pounds of HE under your belly is 'flag waving' or spending 16 hours at 40,000' in an AWACS is 'flag waving' you are patently an ignorant and stupid person.
Do us all a favour, crawl back under your little stone and get a life.
I am unable to waste any more of my valuable time on you

The Swinging Monkey
'Smithers, kick this civilian in the nuts for me, theres a good chap!!

just read your comment about the Americans prefering to go it alone. Now I know you are a fool. I work directly with US aviators EVERY day, and believe me, they much prefer us to be with them. Why do you think we are still in Afghanistan? 'cos its nice weather or what? you are a fool Sir.

Jimlad

21st Nov 2002, 11:37

The Daily Telegraph has an excellent transcript of the conversation - it mentions that Sir Michael said he had extreme concern, then Bufhoon said - "i didn't hear him say extreme concern - he said extremely concerned instead" - trying to lie and spin your way out of a press conference indeed. One man a low life piece of political trash, the other a man who has devoted his life to the service of his country and stands up for the lads. BZ Sir Michael - the measure of his success though will only become apparent when our dicators start leaking information about him to discredit him - i confidently expect stories to appear soon that he is gay/lesbian/kiddy molestor/satanist/tory voter -with the aim of shooting him down/ You can't humiliate the Government and get away with it these days...

A Civilian

21st Nov 2002, 11:41

I dont want to get into a flame war. All im saying is that a certain percentage of americans dont want to goto war alone. Therefore we get involved and maybe others I dont know. Im sure Bush would be just as happy if we sent some ships down there and some doctors instead of a couple of hundred tanks. This is what I meant by fighting a media war.

PS. Well I speak with a couple of american civilians every few days, some of them being ex-military. Well one of them anyway :)

swinging monkey

21st Nov 2002, 11:52

Dear Mr Civilian,

Despite saying I wouldn't waste any more of my valuable time with you, I find I now am:confused:
Stop trying to dig yourself out of a very big hole.
You said we were simply 'flag waving' and that Sir, in Military terms is 'Bollocks!'
Oh and you speak to some Americans every few days - that must be nice for you:) Do they like you? I wonder:confused:

JimLad,

I like your sentiments, and I fear you will be proved correct. I can just see the headlines now........
'CDS found to be having an affair with black, one-legged homosexual Russian' 'Off with his head demands Bafhoon'

Sir Mike, I am not in your service, but you get my vote every time! Enjoy your retirement

The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, get the Admiral a drink!'

A Civilian

21st Nov 2002, 12:13

SM

Words can hurt like a fist. Its a pity yours dont :D

swinging monkey

21st Nov 2002, 12:19

Mr Civilian,

Yes, now let me see, how did it go...um ah yes.....
NO BRAIN - NO PAIN!

Guess that just about sums you up;) ;)

Mind you don't hurt yourself with that paper clip old boy!

Night night

Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, hit this civilian again, harder!'

Chinese Vic

21st Nov 2002, 13:17

Oi Civvie!

Off to fight a media war, are we? Well the last time I looked, the worst thing you could get from The Sun was a nasty paper cut. Headlines don't kill people but SAMs, AAA, artillery, tanks, SSMs and CBW do! When we are out in the desert and the casualties begin (god forbid), I dare you say "It's only a media war"

Get back in your box you ignorant fool.

CV:mad:

DuckDogers

21st Nov 2002, 13:33

A Civilian

Unfortunately we in our distinguished profession have to defend the likes of people like yourself. I for one would be quite happy to see al Qaeda commit an act of aggression here in the UK against people like your, only for the reason of awakening you from the pathetic, 9-5, tree-huggy existance that you live and open your eyes to the real world!

You see Saddam is one of the few in the world who still upholds traditional realist values and has on many occaisions exhibited those Laws of Nature as laid down by Thomas Hobbes in his book 'The Leviathan'. Namely Law 1) that people pursue only their own self-interest, and 4) the natural condition of war. You see despite the changes the International System has endured over the last decade or so nothing has changed.

As for your comment blow;

"America doesnt need us, not with all the toys that they have"

This i'm afraid is not so, from first hand experience i suggest you look at the RAF contribution to Op NORTHERN WATCH enforcing UNSCR 688, then to the recent air ops over afghanistan in support of Op ENDURING FREEDOM where we provided ESSENTIAL AAR to not only the USN, USMC, FAF and Navy as well as our own assets!

At the end of the day you need people like swining monkey and i because it is people like YOU who would hide behind others to save his own behind!!

I leave you with another excert from The Leviathan and that popular TV series called The Simpsons. Enjoy the very Freedom that my colleagues and i provide for you!!!!:mad:

"Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man. For war consisteth not in battle only, or the act of fighting, but in a tract of time, wherein the will to contend by battle is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of time is to be considered in the nature of war, as it is in the nature of weather. For as the nature of foul weather lieth not in a shower or two of rain, but in an inclination thereto of many days together: so the nature of war consisteth not in actual fighting, but in the known disposition thereto during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary. All other time is peace. "

and

"Smithers, unleash the hounds!"

ShyTorque

21st Nov 2002, 13:46

Now then chaps,

Can't you see that we are all enjoying Labour's "peace dividend"? We simply don't need more people in the military.

Oh no, sorry, it was the last government who said that. Ah well, that was them too....

Isn't this sort of thing where the term "spin" originated? Only called that because "bull$hit" isn't politically correct, of course.

Too much with too few resources again, so they try and hoodwink the public, who of course are even more stupid than the government (they must be, look who did the voting)!

P.S. I have to say I saw this coming some years ago and took the ultimate sanction. I left the services. Not that it's much better outside in civvy street though.

My regards to all of those facing a Green Godess Christmas. BTW, looking on the bright side, when we did this 25 years ago it resulted in a big payrise for the military!

Regie Mental

21st Nov 2002, 14:02

Civilian

If it's going to be a 'media war', will slander and libel be war crimes?

Reg

SirPercyWare-Armitag

21st Nov 2002, 14:09

I like the idea of a coup.
Now let me see, we owe our oath of loyalty to the Queen, not Tony Blair so all we need for an excuse is a Labour Govt attack on HM Queen. Ah, what about the Princess Royal being convicted today because her dogs savaged some children...that sounds convenient.
The Guards are ideally placed to seize Parliament, MoD, Downing St and the BBC. All on those on Op FRESCO can block every line of communication in and out of major cities with thunderclap surprise(well,as quickly as they can at 30mph).
The RAF jaguars can waste both of Prescotts jags...how ironic and the Navy can steam around for a bit with some nice bunting....mind those rocks.
We install a provisional government loyal to the Crown, award ourselves a 40% payrise ( another bout of irony) and arrest every Guardian reader and Mrs Taversall (my old maths teacher and criminal)
Right, I am off to armoury to sign out a shooter. Look out for me stuck in the traffic on the A1 tonight in a purple Corsa.
Go back to your crewrooms and prepare for Government

DummyRun

21st Nov 2002, 16:55

Did I hear talk of a coup?

Where do I sign?

Spose a Daisy-cutter is a bit OTT though for Millbank or wherever they're holed-up now, or is co-lateral damage just a New Labour thing?

ORAC

21st Nov 2002, 17:57

Just as a counter comment, who the h*ll does he think he is stating that soldiers won't cross picket lines? He's a member of the armed forces, if it's a legal order he'd better do what he's told. If they're ordered to cross them, they d*mned well better.

The police have now stated that they won't either. What is going on in this country? I'm waiting with great interest to find out who "Two Jags" is going to get to do it if the army and police won't.

BBC:

In a separate development, the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has said its members will not cross picket lines to take red fire engines for the armed forces to use.

Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon had suggested police could cross picket lines after army chiefs said soldiers would not.

ACPO vice president Chris Fox, the chief constable of Northamptonshire Police, said: "Under the legislative framework currently in effect, police have no part to play in themselves removing red engines from fire stations."

Downing Street insisted the government was prepared to issue instructions to commandeer the red fire engines, but it would not be drawn on how if both the Army and police refused to cross picket lines.

"Precisely who goes through a picket line, should it be necessary, is less important than the fact that it happens," a spokesman said.

Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott was due to make a statement to the House of Commons later on Thursday.

John Farley

21st Nov 2002, 18:45

ORAC

I have niggle somewhere in the back of my memory that the “one must obey a legal order thing” does have some limits. Orders that are legal in war may not be quite so watertight in a time of peace. Is it always mutiny, especially in peace-time, if you can later show your superior was wrong in what he wanted you to do? Interesting times.

Proletarian

21st Nov 2002, 18:48

CDS gets my vote for the most effective statement for ages on the current problems that affect the armed forces. Sadly, judging my the look on Hoon's face, he will be ignored and Phoney Tony will continue to 'willy wave' at every opportunity and keep committing the armed forces for even greater OOA activities, without having the decency to fund the appropriate equipment.

CDS deserves a vote of thanks from every member of the armed forces for doing something few if any of his predecessors ever did - he stood up in public and was counted.

ORAC

21st Nov 2002, 18:59

John,

I believe the rule is still that one must obey a legal order.Though it is true that some orders may only be true in certain circumstances. I cannot, however, see how an order from the government of the day to cross a picket line could be considered illegal, which is the case in point. if you wish past precedent, they did it in the General Strike of 1926 when the forces crossed the picket lines to run the buses and the underground.

You may quibble as to the ownership of the fire engines (government or local authority), but that is a separate argument and one presumes that, since they are the people in dispute with the firemen, they would authorise their removal and use.

fobotcso

21st Nov 2002, 19:05

I don't want to get involved in an Orac vs John Farley debate so I won't!

However, when I use to teach about this stuff there were two categories of "Military Aid" that could be invoked.

The first was "Military Aid to the Civil Power", and had to be invoked by a Senior Judge at the request of the Police. The ever-present example of this is in Northern Ireland where the troops only work within the limits laid down by the judiciary. This emphasises the principle of the "Rule of Law".

The second was "Military Aid to the Civil Community". This category is not subject to Civil Law, but has clearly got to be conducted according to standard military procedures. There are lots of examples of this from flood relief to foot-and-mouth measures. There can be no question of a Service(wo)man not doing something because they don't happen to believe in it. And that must apply to the CDS as much as to a Lance Corporal in a fire engine. The Military personnel work under the instructions of a head of the Civil Government (Mayor, Prime Minister etc).

I imagine we are in a MACC situation and not a MACP. If it's all different now, I'm sure someone will enlighten me!

John Farley

21st Nov 2002, 19:24

ORAC

Thanks. I was not arguing a point. Just not sure. Your General Strike precedent is interesting too.

I really admire the CDS though. A true senior officer standing up for his men.

Smoketoomuch

21st Nov 2002, 19:40

I don't think that anyone has said they would 'refuse' to cross picket lines, merely that they would be extremely reluctant to do so, and for very understandable reasons - it is not the job of the police or military take sides in a civil industrial dispute, and it would be foolish for a government to order them to do so. Unfortunately Labour, despite the 'New' prefix, still display the authoritarian arrogance so typical of socialists. They believe that they now 'own' the country and everything in it - an attitude usually only seen in African dictators.

Article ....here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/11/17/nfire17.xml)

On a related note, some interesting reading here, by a self-described Royal Marine squaddie;
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-11-23&id=2517
Why I quit the army. Gordon Bourne has resigned his commission in despair

ORAC

21st Nov 2002, 19:53

The government of the day went a bit further than having them cross picket lines!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"The London docks were besieged by striking dockers and middle-class blacklegs were afraid to go there. The docks were heavily guarded by soldiers in full war-kit and machine guns were mounted everywhere. The Home Secretary met high army and naval officers,

"Make your own plans" he said. "Use whatever force you require - I give you carte blanche - but my orders are that the London Docks must be opened at all costs."

Warships took loads of blacklegs down the Thames at night and one hundred food lorries were loaded. Next morning the lorries passed through the East End in convoy guarded by hundreds of police, two battalions of infantry with fixed bayonets, a number of tanks and ten armoured cars.

---------------------------------------------------------------

On the 7th of May the government issued the following proclamation:

"All ranks of the Armed Forces of the Crown are hereby notified that any action which they may find it necessary to take in an honest endeavour to aid the Civil Power will receive, both now and afterwards, the full support of His Majesty’s Government."

-------------------------------------------------------------------

But the situation was a bit more extreme then, so a tank might be a bit OTT. Don't know when the army last fixed bayonets except in a parade. :D

John Farley

21st Nov 2002, 21:20

Don't know when the army last fixed bayonets except in a parade.

Well certainly that was done in the Falklands

junglejim

21st Nov 2002, 21:29

1. CDS has demonstrated outstanding military leadership. We must all take comfort from the fact he was prepared to publicly state the way it is for the Armed Forces. What will it cost him?

2. ORAC, I understand your argument and it makes compelling reading. However, what would the RoE be in the event of pickets becoming violent? What about the role of the Euro Court of Human Rights (not around in 1926)? I don't think the legal advisors to the government could make the case for a 'lawful order to cross a picket line' stick. I also believe that is why the Police aren't keen on it either.

3. Has anyone seen the spoof Army recruitment advert allegedly being circulated in Squaddie circles? Today's Current Bun had a feature on it - amusing and pertinent if true.

4. I really hope they don't go on strike for 8 days. It would put unbearable pressure on our lads filling in.

Regards

JJ

ADUX

21st Nov 2002, 22:10

Thanks for your post Mr Civilian, your words will be of great comfort. At least when the bullets start flying, people start losing their lives and servicemen have to endure another several months away from their families, we'll know it's only a flag waving exercise. :o

Not only do we have to endure the back-to-back tours of the Balkans, Falklands, Middle East and Afghanistan to name but a few, we have to do it with ill funded kit, with little extra money and now with narrow minded people like you coming out with bone statements as you do.

You thinks it's easy. Try telling that to the serviceman who has just returned from an Op theatre, had his post Op leave cancelled due to our dear friends the fireman and has the threat of a conflict in the Middle East looming. Oh and do it on very little money with no right of recourse or protest (not that a majority of servicemen would, loyalty and all that).

Even though the bullets may not fly, there would be the constant threat of CBWs being used. Spending untold hours in NBC kit and a respirator is no fun although i suspect you wouldn't appreciate what it's like; I suspect you've spent little if any time wearing the kit.

I'm also glad that 75% of the Iraqi Army will surrender, that only leaves about 100,000 Republican guard to deal with, easy money. 'A few of our ships and doctors' should see them off a treat.

Many of our guys routinely risk their lives. Not wishing to sound dramatic but tearing around at 250 feet in a FJ, conducting Armd Bde live firing Exs etc etc are not without risk. These are things people in the forces do without question, daily; all to train to defend the country. Oh i forgot, we can't do those things at present as we're putting out fires.

The bottom line is, you're comments here are unwelcome, insulting and ill informed. If you think it's easy, why don't you join the military and see for yourself, or are you one of those who is well and truely entrenched in the comfort zone?

If you said what you said to provoke a reaction, you got it but, final comment - F%ck you and crawl back under your rock. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

PS CDS what a speech, what was needed right now.

Archimedes

21st Nov 2002, 22:40

Civvie,

I have to hand it to you - you really have mastered the art of dentopedology (the art of putting one's foot in one's mouth).

I won't rehash the apposite comments of other Ppruners more qualified to remark on this matter. All I will remark is that the government (and, for that matter their predecessors) keep remarking that our armed services are the finest in the world. I happen to agree with that, not least since I work with members of all the services 0830-1730 Monday to Friday at the PLC (OK, perhaps 1200 on Fridays...). What puzzles me is why, if the government believes this, they then treat said finest armed forces like Sh-one-t. Treating finest roses with said substance may work, but we aren't dealing with gardening.

By the by, also thanks to this goverment, we don't have any bl00dy ships or Doctors - ever heard of Defence Medical Services trying to manage with something like 10% (I forget the figure) of the required manpower?

Media war is a myth - at its basest level, war is about killing people. It is nasty, brutal and not necessarily short (with apologies to Hobbes). Whether we send any or all of our services into a war zone, every single person deployed faces the risks. That,That is what fighting means. It is hard. It is nasty. It is never easy. It is, though, easy to forget this if you're not the one being shot at/bombed/gassed/bombarded. Sorry, but it's at best insulting and at worst glibly stupid to suggest that any war is going to be easy, even if we do happen to be fighting it with the biggest kid on the block.

Completely changing tack - crossing picket lines is an interesting one, and always leads to a bit of debate when CMR crops up. The problem, I think, is that unlike Foot & Mouth type scenarios, crossing a picket line is an inherently politicised activity, and UK governments of all colours have been a tad reluctant to get the forces involved in overtly political activity since about the time of the Levellers and the Putney Debates... The MACP/MACC questions are interesting ones. As for ROE, surely they'd be based on necessary force? I.e, if fireman sam attacks you with one of his natty baseball caps, bayoneting him might be viewed as a little harsh... Major (now Major-General at least) John Kizeley, a Coy Cdr in Scots Guards bayoneted at least 2 Argentineans during the battle for Tumbledown by the by. 'Pretty sharp for a company commander' as his Btn cdr put it several years later.

[edited to evade censorship of mild expletive]

A Civilian

22nd Nov 2002, 01:05

I have a big mouth I know that. Ive always spoke whats on my mind all my life and suffered accordingly for it, I just dont know when to shutup sometimes. There's nothing I can say that will make what I said right. All I can say is that I was telling the truth when I wrote it. Im not attempting to tr0ll people just to get a cheap response. There's things that need to be said about this war and if no one else is willing to say them then I will.

cookiebat

22nd Nov 2002, 05:51

I fully concur with the theme of this thread and surprised that so many with a respected view even bother to give the "civilian" airtime. Ignore him chaps for he knows not what he is jibbering about.
Why is it though that the military has to wait until the senior man of the day is on his home run before he demonstrates the outstanding leadership you should expect daily. Did Sir Michael G not wait until a similar timescale was imminent? I totally applaud his stance, and a brave one it was in such a public forum, but that IS his job after all. if such stands were taken more realistically often our valiant servicemen would undoubtedley go through more CDS's but they might (eventually) get some solutions as opposed tp perpetually being on the wrong side of the queue when cash and equipment is being allocated by the purse stringholders.

:confused:

Wholigan

22nd Nov 2002, 18:22

Please, please, please Mr A Civilian stop digging and throw your shovel away! Every post you make merely serves to demonstrate - each more clearly than its predecessor - that you are totally ignorant on matters military and political.

Brian Dixon

22nd Nov 2002, 18:23

Civvy,
No problem with you speaking your mind, but you were giving your opinion - not the truth.

If our fine Service Men and Women have to go to war to fight for the freedom of the civilised world, I would much rather they did it with someone like CDS at the helm, as opposed to any of those amoebas in Government.

You should have a little more respect for our service personnel, and their predecessors. They have given you the freedom you enjoy.

And ........ to top it all, I bet you're an Evertonian.

Kiting for Boys

22nd Nov 2002, 19:42

From A nother Civilian

Good to hear an honest response - although the spinners took away some of the force of his remarks by handing out the text and endorsing them....

Good on the CDS.

Last week I left a thankyou letter at our local TA centre; the week before I'd thanked them in person.

Today I passed a large fire station twice - no toots
News coverage showed several tooters (maybe non-civilians?)

Tomorrow I'm dropping off a case of beer.

bootscooter

22nd Nov 2002, 21:53

What's wrong with being Evertonian???????:confused:

ORAC

22nd Nov 2002, 22:03

Well nothing.... if the alternative is being Liverpudlian... (Sorry Danny!). :D

swinging monkey

23rd Nov 2002, 09:26

Mr Civilian,

My colleagues have confirmed all that I said a few entries ago, you are a very silly and ignorant man?
I say it again, it is thanks to me and ALL my fellow servicemen that you are enable to publicly spout such utter sh**:(
Night Night you utter dim wit, mind those paper clips!
Regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, kick this civilian in the nuts again, but much ,juch harder this time, theres a good chap!'

SPIT

23rd Nov 2002, 13:18

Hi All
I was just going through the site when I saw the wierd post by A CIVILIAN. I noticed that he apparently comes from the capital of the NORTH (LIVERPOOL). I also saw some deterimental posts re Liverpool but I will treat that with the contempt that it deserves.
To the rest of you PLEASE DO NOT think that this is the view of most Scousers (YES I AM ONE OF THEM). THE SERVICES HAVE A LOT MORE SUPPORT UP HERE THAN YOU THINK.After all who else is going to do the HARD WORK whilst others sit back and spout about "HOW HARD" things are. Re the suggested Coup ? before you do that could somebody sort out PR**** like A Civilian.
All the BEST to ALL SERVICE PERSONEL at home or abroard.

(Please excuse any spelling mistakes)
SPIT

A Civilian

23rd Nov 2002, 14:05

The fact that im not in the air force, the army or the navy does not mean that I cant judge on this war. Can anyone imagine us going to war with Iraq by ourselves? Espically as he has never bothered us. We all know that were only going there because America is. We all know that its about oil as Saudi is a bit dodgy nowadays and Venezula the US's other major oil supplier isnt so friendly nowadays after the CIA backed coup attept failed :) So Iraq is on the cards. And as American oil magnets have already met with Iraqi exiles to carve up the spoils im sure the black gold will be gushing as soon as Sadam is gone.

So lets get back to the topic. America wants the oil. However it cant simply take it without the UN's backing. To get the UN's backing it needs its friends to run interference for it. Hence we get to go in with the Americans as a disguise (along with others) so that this isnt a purely American war which would inflame the arab's further and probably cause more muslems to go join al-queda holy crusade. Bush just needs names on the coalition's banner. Their contribution to the coalition is unnecessary as long as he gets to name them as allies, once he gets a muslem country on that list the wars on.

it is thanks to me and ALL my fellow servicemen that you are enable publicly spout such stuff

This is getting completely off topic here. Yes I respect all those servicemen who volunteered to serve there country. What else do you expect me to say? that I hate you all or something? If you want everyone to have respect for you then go on and take over the country as you've all been talking about. I certainly wont stop you as I dont want to die. Im no patriot and neither do I hold much faith in politics (I dont vote) or in Tony Blair so go ahead and live up the limelight.

TicketyBoo

23rd Nov 2002, 20:37

Civilian,

While you are in Liverpool, it might be a good idea to pop into the International Section of the William Brown Library, which is acknowledged as one of the world's best municipal libraries. Pick up almost any book on history,geography or politics; hopefully this will help you to become a little better informed on the topics under discussion here - I feel you may be imposing an unfair burden on yourself by attempting to comment from such a low base of knowledge or experience.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but the library also carries material which will help you with grammar and spelling.

kilo52

23rd Nov 2002, 23:33

Civilian

Bombing Iraq is an RAF tradition. It inherited it from the RFC on 1 April 1918 (although it was called Mesopotamia then) and continued it throughout the inter- war years.

During WW2 we had to cheat and use a Flying Training School (4 FTS) to defeat their attempt to support Nazi Germany. Front line Squadrons were tied up elsewhere.

Oh, don't forget that it was Iraq that invaded Kuwait and that many thousands of Kuwaiti Citizens who were shipped off to Iraqi prisons are still unaccounted for!!

Iraq has utilised Chemical and Biological Weapons against both Iran and its own Citizens.

One final point. THE SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION WAS UNANIMOUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BEagle

24th Nov 2002, 07:30

Nevertheless, it is pretty obvious that the Simple Cowboy is just itching to go a-hootin', a-hollerin' an' a-shootin jus' to finish what his Daddy don' bin' startin' an' whup Eye-Raqi butt. Yessiree Bob, Yeee-Hah! The slightest excuse will probably be used.

Patience, reasoned democracy and the due processes of International Law do seem to take second place at times; particularly when mid-term elections and oil are involved. But heh, we're OK, we've got Toady and Buff looking after our Armed Forces... So that'll be alright then.....

The Ferret

24th Nov 2002, 10:37

I just want to add my congratulations to Sir Michael for saying what needed to be said - not before time! When is the government going to realise that we (the Armed Services) are continually being stretched further and further beyond the limits? Some will say that we have been beyond this threshold for a while now. Personnel, assets, budgets and equipment decrease while the size and number of the Military Tasks remain! I suspect that this episode, however, will go unnoticed in a year's time and indeed the only way the problem will gain attention is by sustaining massive losses in conflict - let's hope that it does not come to that!:( :(

A note to A Civilian - I suggest that you accept the corner that you are now in and put down the shovel - do you work for BafHoon? :eek:

John Farley

24th Nov 2002, 11:06

A Civilian

Back in February you started a thread JSF & Stealth & VTOL

I bothered to write you a considered answer. You did not reply.

Even today manners say things about people.

The Gorilla

24th Nov 2002, 12:04

Excellent item in todays Mail On Sunday.
An ex Royal Marine hits the nail right on the head!!

Any sane man would leave todays sorry services.
I know I am not insane!!.....:p

LoeyDaFrog

24th Nov 2002, 15:56

This Civilian fella really has not taken the hint has he. Then again nor have our political masters for as long as I can remember - could there be a link, discuss

A Civilian

24th Nov 2002, 16:24

LoeyDaFrog

Its called freedom of speech.

TicketyBoo

I would take up your advice honestly I would. But I have an excellent memory and unfortunatly have an old outstanding £50 fine so ive never been to a Pl since :)

John Farley

Nice one :cool:

Grob Driver

24th Nov 2002, 17:24

A Civilian You just hit the nail on the head… It is call freedom of speech, and it’s thanks to all these ‘flag waving’ wars we go to, that you have the ability to voice your views so freely. If it wasn’t for the British military, this world would be a very different place, and not necessarily for the better either.

I suggest you voice your views on a more appropriate forum rather than offending the people who give you your freedom.

Now go on…. Foxtrot Oscar!!!!
:eek: :eek: :eek:

A Civilian

24th Nov 2002, 17:33

Point to a a law that allows freedom of speech in this country and I will leave.

However you wont be able to as none exist. I suggest you learn more about the working of are government before you describe it as anything promoting freedom of speech. To give you a hint I suggest you look up the words 'subject' and 'privilege' in a legal dictionary.

Grob Driver

24th Nov 2002, 19:05

Civilian, it was your quote….

“Its called freedom of speech”

Now you’re going on about some law… what is your point?

ORAC

24th Nov 2002, 19:23

"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."

Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC

fobotcso

24th Nov 2002, 19:39

ORAC, that's an awesome quote! Thank you.

It gives us all so much to think about that there can hardly be any time left for us to bicker about trivialities.

ADUX

24th Nov 2002, 20:13

Civilian

No-one is suggesting that you do not have the freedom of speech. What is p$ssing people off here is that you refer to 'easy' flag waving wars. It matters not to the soldier, sailor, airman the motives behind a campaign; whatever the motive, wars are sh$tty.

If you feel you need to 'bleat' about the current crisis, do it to our lords and masters, not to the guys and gals in here.

Read and inwardly digest ORAC's quote.

Archimedes

24th Nov 2002, 20:26

Civvy,

Try the Human Rights Act 1998.

This incorporates the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law. The relevant bits of the ECoHR are:

"Article 10

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary. "

And you can also stick in Articles 9 and 11, which cover such things as freedom of conscience and the right to peaceful assembly.

All of this was incorporated (with the usual caveats about seeking exemptions from certain parts of the Convention) into UK law in November 1998.

John Farley

24th Nov 2002, 21:17

Thanks ORAC

I feel better now

Cheers

Grob Driver

24th Nov 2002, 23:09

Well there you go Civilian…. Archimedes has given you the law; now hold true to your word, and leave…. Thanks!

And ORAC…. That was a wonderful quote…. Something for us all to think about….

Happy landings

Grob Driver

A Civilian

25th Nov 2002, 00:02

There's a good saying that ive heard squadies say You can never trust a civilian :)

Scud-U-Like

25th Nov 2002, 14:21

While quite entertaining, Sir Michael's obvious attempt to embarrass Geoff Hoon was, IMHO, a rather pointless exercise. It is clear that any useful working relationship between the two has broken down and I'm at a loss to know how that is supposed to benefit the armed forces. If he finds himself unable to work with his political masters (spare me the, ' But he works for The Queen' line) , then his proper course of action would be to resign.

TicketyBoo

25th Nov 2002, 18:51

On the contrary, if Hoon finds himself unable to work with his betters, then it is up to him to resign.

steamchicken

26th Nov 2002, 17:30

I'm a member of the Labour Party, but I have to say that Geoff Hoon really isn't one of the Labour Movement's intellectual gems:
Denis Healey, Nye Bevan, Ernie Bevin, Tony Crosland, Barbara Castle, Roy Jenkins, Gordon Brown - and Geoff...arrrrrsssse! The pictures next to Admiral Boyce were just embarrassing - Hoon didn't just look thick, he looked like a syphilitic royal courtier into the bargain.

Art Field

26th Nov 2002, 19:43

A Civilian

Having just watched a programme on TV showing a group of Falklands war veterans revisiting the Island in an attempt to exorcise their continual nightmarish memories of the conflict I find your pride in plain speaking and comments particularily offensive. I too have the memory of meeting many of the Welsh Guards as they returned home from their "Flag Waving" and the dramatic effect of the Sir Gallahad disaster was all too plain to see. This is a forum for those who are or have been actively involved in operating military aviation, I don't think you are welcome or, come to that, have earned a place in such company.

fobotcso

26th Nov 2002, 19:55

Sorry, steamchicken, you can't have Barbara Castle as a paragon.

Folks of my vintage will never forgive her for the way she laid into the British Forces in Cyprus who, with their famiies, were being targeted by Eoka terrorists during the 50s.

She supported the accusations of brutality by our troops in the same way that other tree-huggers have done. Her political ambitions knew no bounds.

She didn't have the benefit of Fr O'Brien's homily.

(edited)
This link is to a contemporary essay on the topic:

Eoka in Cyprus (http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/macmillan_plan.htm)

...and this is an extract from it:

"The boycott and noncooperation with the British were ruthlessly enforced by EOKA. In reprisal for the alleged ill-treatment of Greek suspects by British troops, EOKA began to attack British civilians as well as soldiers. The murder in Famagusta of Mrs Cutliffe, the wife of a British soldier (for which EOKA denied responsibility), led to reprisals by British troops. Scores of Greek Cypriot men in the town were beaten while being rounded up for questioning. One man was killed and many others injured. Throughout the island at that time at least two thousand Cypriots were under detention and many thousands more subject to total house curfew, forbidden to leave their houses by night or day."

Killing unsuspecting innocent civilians is not a new trick of terrorists.

fob

swinging monkey

26th Nov 2002, 21:20

Civvy,

the longer this forum drags on, the more and more I am seriously concerned by the state of your mental health:(
Are you really serious in your comments, or are you simply using this opportunity to show the rest of us how utterly fu**ing stupid you are?:confused: :confused:
The replies from the Grob driver, Mr Farley, Archimedes and the outstanding quote from the ORAC clearly show you what the general feeling is regarding your comments.
Are you getting the message yet? or are you just an ignorant fool who gets his kicks out of making pathetic comments about our armed forces?
As Grob Driver states several entries ago, get a life and Foxtrot Oscar you Muppet. (That means go away to you!)

ORAC, that was a hell of a quotation, thanks. I will remember it for ever, thank you.

Civvy, I do hope you go away. This is a sensible forum for sensible people. If you are not up to it, then do us all a favour and leave. I am sure that Liverpool has a nursery that can find you a place. Or maybe a secure hospital eh?

Kind regards (as always)

The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, this Civvy is still being an Arse, do kick him a great deal harder, theres a good chap!'

Training Risky

28th Nov 2002, 15:28

Civvy: Re your profile, is radio controlled aircraft your only experience of aviation, mil or civ?

I find it funny thinking of you standing, probably dressed in a grobag you bought from Transair pilot shop with 'authentic' RAF wings, on a windswept field somewhere in the Wirral, putting the world to rights with the other 'Sunday sky-warriors'!:D

Do you think you are qualified to post here?

difar69

28th Nov 2002, 16:20

Civilian, I have witnessed your comments on this forum for some time now and so far have managed not to waste my time in replying to you. You have gone too far now.
Your comments in this thread are an insult to all serving military personnel and their families. You are ill informed. You seem to have no real reason to be posting here. Please ****** off.

I propose from now on any posts by this gimp are ignored.

A Civilian

28th Nov 2002, 21:19

Are you guys trying to tell me something :confused:

That you all hate me? is that it?

Well thats to bad.

If you want to stick your heads in the sand and pretend that your doing this job for queen and country and not for uncle sam then thats fine by me.

Training Risky::

Alas, I havent been flying in years. I have 3 planes, ones in pieces in my loft, ones in pieces in my shed and ones in pieces in my garage. Im a third generation radio control plane flyer so please dont insult my hobby. My grandfather flew them in the 1940s my father in the 60's and me in the 90's so in total we probably have more flight experience than you :)

*edit:: the way that came out sounded like he was in the BoB or something*

In 30 years you'll be just like me. There wont be any piloted planes anymore just A Civilian Junior sitting in a simulator 400 miles behind the lines. Your looking at the future here.

fobotcso

28th Nov 2002, 21:49

Quote from AC: "There wont be any piloted planes anymore (...in 30 years) "

Duncan Sandys said something like that in 1956. Got it a bit wrong methinks.

Hertz Van Rental

29th Nov 2002, 00:04

Civvy,

Three points: Firstly, the UAV debate is a valid one and I doubt that anyone here would fail to acknowledge that they will play an ever larger part in military aviation. However, few would be so crass as to believe that there will not still be a need for an airborne decision maker in many areas.
Secondly, whilst not wishing to belittle anyone's pastime, I'm afraid that if all that you, your father and your grandfather have flown is toys, then you have zero flight experience - nothing. Please do not delude yourself that you have acquired any of the skills and airmanship required to be aircrew yourself.
Thirdly, what insanity makes you think that you have the right or the wisdom to tell us why we serve our country? It is a personal decision made in good conscience by high calibre individuals for their own reasons. At the risk of sounding like Jack Nicholson, if you have the courage and the ability to make that commitment then take a weapon and stand at post. If not take your drivel elsewhere until you have something intelligent to contribute.

Farfrompuken

29th Nov 2002, 10:04

Civvie,

your ill-informed comments disgust, dissapoint, but don't surprise.

The state-controlled media (believe it) have done a good job in keeping the public suitably ignorant of the funding/equipment/manning crisis within the armed forces, and their impact on our capability.
The net result is that pink bodies are placed at increased risk to achieve the same goal. 'Acceptable', since TC Blair is prepared to 'Pay with Blood'. Hurrah!! We always get the job done, mainly a triumph of commitment and professionalism, over all the odds. 'Best armed forces in the world' my @rse, but best personnell, maybe.
We're all volunteers, doing a job we all(?) love, and feel proud of representing our country defend it's territories and interests whever that may be. Bush is quite correct in his concerns. That's why we're there. No flag waving, mate.

I'm not angry with your post, more sad that the media have allowed the public to become this ignorant. Celebrity Big Brother will get a bigger interest than any coverage of the forthcoming campaign. All part of the grand plan to mis-educate the public to such a level, that vital issues can be swept away with little concern from the voters. That's another topic, however.

CDS, top comments. TC Hoon needs to sort his life out and represent us, not destroy us.

Coup? Count me in.....:D

ADUX

29th Nov 2002, 23:16

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Civilian, you just don't get it do you?

1. How dare you suggest you have more experience than Swinging Monkey, I don't know him but i'd wager that 3 generations of model aircraft flying will not give tha same experience.

2.

Our job is to carry out the policies of the government of the day whether we like it or not. Most of us have a personal opinion of most decisions but professsionalism and pride prevent us from voicing them if we disagree, and WE DO OUR JOB, every time.

WE ARE NOT BURYING OUR HEADS IN THE SAND; WE DO NOT HAVE THAT LUXURY. All we ask is for the public to support us when the **** starts flying.

I'm sorry to break it down to a base level but you have really
p%ssed me off, you can ram your comments up your arse.

smartman

29th Nov 2002, 23:59

Civilian,

Rather than condemn you as pond-life, I would prefer to think that you are winding all of us up!

Should I be incorrect, I will continue to respect your right to express your views in a public forum. A quiet word in your shell-like though - don't express them in the pubs of Liverpool. On the other hand, please do so, and put us all out of our misery.

swinging monkey

30th Nov 2002, 07:03

Dear Civvie,

Thank you so much for confirming to us all that you are suffering from a disorder in the mental health department!

Your comments over the past few weeks have insulted not only myself but all of the proffessional men and women, in whose life I entrust mine too every day of the year.

Unlike yours, my aircraft is not a toy. It is a real piece of kit that requires the hard work, dedication and commitment of a great many people not only to fly it, but to maintain it as well. Its not something that comes out on a nice sunny day, that I chuck around the skies for a couple of hours and then put back in the cupboard for the rest of the week.

I have not stopped laughing since I read your comments about being a third generation radio controller. Oh Dear, I am sorry I have berated so much. I now understand that anyone who thinks that your kind of lifestyle gives him the creedance to even look at forums like this, let alone comment on them, is sadly suffering from severe mental health problems.

Nevertheless, mental dissorder does not give you the right to make outrageous comments on this forum.

I strongly urge you to cut away to your GP and ask him to certify you asap, because you truly are as mad as a sack of spanners!!

'Third generation' radio controller eh?? ha ha ha ha ha ha
I'm sorry, I just can't stop laughing!!!

I'm proud to say that I do my job for Queen and country, wherever it is, in this country or abroad, but sticking my head in the sand? and for Uncle Sam? absolutely not.

Get a life Civvie. Infact, get yourself a secure life preferably in a secure establishment, something like Rampton! They have lots of open air places where you will be able to fly your 'elastic-band-powered' weapon of war, all day long.

Leave the real flying to the big boys.

Kind regards

The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, stop kicking this civilian now, he is not worth it anymore'

ADUX

30th Nov 2002, 21:40

Civvy, well done, you've 'wah'd' us all. I've just been reading some of your previous posts on others forums. It seams you are anti Royal / military and the only reason you post is to get a rise, which you do most succesfully.

Great, but please leave that for the sad chat rooms on the net, not the forums for the professional boys and girls in here.

A Civilian

30th Nov 2002, 23:18

I dont post just to get a rise as you say or at least it never starts out that way. Infact I tried my best to not let this turn into another flame war after the last one did. I tried to back down and let things lie but it kinda got out of control. Yes okay some of my later posts did become a bit cheeky but lets face it you guys weren't actually being saints where you?

With all the 'you sir are an arse', 'you belong in a mental institution' or a certain poster trying not to appear as the arrogant sod he must be in real life by modifing his past posts.

Being a Republician, a left winger or anti-iraqi war is probably not the best combination of qualities to post about on a forum such as this but they where the sort of topics I could post on as I dont know anything about mil-flying and havent pretended to. I guess I dont have the right state of mind to be posting here as its more of a club thingy rather than a forum for open discussion. There should be a warning sign statement saying as such.

About the so called anti-military topic. I dont give a f**k what you think. If someone insults my disability ill insult him whatever way I please. People like that deserve to be treated like scum. Hes obviously the sort of person that laughs out loud when a thalidomide victim walks by.