information

[stellair]

Guys

Anyone able to offer some websites, books etc providing info on min requirements, routes and criteria to gaining TPL's

Anything a help.......

[Genghis the Engineer]

On what class of aircraft, and are you looking at the civil or military route?

G

[stellair]

G

Civil


Cheers in advance...

[Genghis the Engineer]

Sorry to sound awkward old chap, but there's no standard answer. What country you want to practice in?, what class of aircraft (Part 25, part 23, smaller?) and whether it's fixed or rotary are all fairly pertinent to anybody's ability to give you a meaningful answer.

It's not a straightforward issue of going and getting a particular license as it is with, say, an ATPL I'm afraid. Give us a few clues (also where you're starting from, in terms of age / background / technical and flying qualifications), and I and hopefully others will gladly steer you in the right direction.

G

[stellair]

G

It goes something like this. Im 22 at the moment, completed my CPL/IR six moths ago with my hours at around five hundred and building fast! I will be seeking uk airline employment :D and would wish to work in the uk should I choose another road in aviation. (abroard would be tempting although licence conversion I imagine would be an issue) I would probably look to work in part 23 given a choice, my intrest may change but use that as a basis. Obviously hours, experience and age would all be a factor but it is an area that appeals to me a great deal and I figure there's no harm having a clear idea of what's involved. I have spoken to guys before now, some of whom were 'very experienced', about methods to gain a TPL, job markets and to get a general overview of what's involved (apart from the obvious) but most the advice given was build your hours, find an airline job :D and forget about it! hence this thread.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Okay, sorry to have been so awkward, but the answer isn't a straightforward one. I'll attempt to kick-off, and hopefully others will add their own slant on this.

First thing, in UK civil aviation there is no such thing as a Test Pilots License. Companies or organisations doing flight testing (with one exception, which I'll ignore since it's not relevant to this discussion) have something called B-conditions. B-conditions is permission from the CAA to fly aircraft without a valid CofA. To get B-conditions you have to submit to the CAA what is called an "Exposition", which is basically a rulebook saying who can do what and how they'll do it. If you've worked in Engineering you may have heard the term "Quality Manual", it's basically the same thing.

TPs are approved by the CAA as part of that exposition. So to get approval as a TP, you need to first convince the company that you're competent, then with them convince the CAA. You then get approved as a TP within the exposition.

So how do you get to this point? Well the most common route is to be an ETPS graduate - that's clearly not available to you. The next most common route is via significant experience as an FTE - that is Flight Test Engineer, who also holds a suitable license; your CPL/IR will cover the license part admirably. To get work as an FTE you probably need a degree in Aeronautics or something pretty similar and get a job within a flight test department. 2+ years in that role (and your CPL) and they *may* start to let you handle the controls on test flights, a couple more years and you *may* be in a position to look towards approval and slide into the left hand seat.

If I give the impression here that being a TP is an extension on being an Engineer, that's deliberate. In this part of the industry that's largely true. You'll find the situation is similar in the US and most other European countries, France and Germany are a bit more regulated and you do need a license, but frankly the route in is very similar. (It's the route I took, although I'm still primarily an Engineer and even now only do about 80hrs pa of left hand seat test flying).

Places to get an aeronautics degree are well known, but if you want steers or contacts, ask. Companies doing part 23 flight test work in the UK are, frankly, limited. Here's (I think) the complete list (in no particular order):-

- Qinetiq (who will only employ ETPS graduates as TPs but have oodles of openings as an FTE, mostly at Boscombe Down. They also put some FTEs through the ETPS FTE course, which is incredibly valuable.)
- Britten-Norman
- Slingsby
- Flight Refuelling Aviation
- PFA

The latter is an oddball, they use a strange mix of retired military TPs, CPLs and even high hour PPLs, with only very limited assessment and training. So, there's a route in there to gain experience, but little or no money to be made.

Similarly, although below the part 23 bracket, the BMAA has a formal training and exam system for microlight TPs (take a look at http://www.avnet.co.uk/bmaa/014.pdf) which would give you a route in - but one which may (unfairly in my opinion, but I have a personal bias) not be all that highly regarded elsewhere. From the current issue of their magazine, I gather they're running a course in February if your 500 hours includes 100+ microlight hours it might be worth looking at.


Aside from all this, there is a beast called a "Check Pilot", that is somebody allowed to conduct regular CofA or permit air tests. The qualifications for this vary, and the remuneration again somewhat limited. If you want to look at this, if only as a means to gain experience in flight test practices, you need variously to contact CAA Flight Test Dept, PFA Engineering or the BMAA Technical Office who will respectively advise you.


At which point, I think I've given as much useful advice as I reasonably can. Over to the old and bold to add their own....

G


N.B. I saw on a notice board the other day "There are old pilots, and bold pilots, but the old and bold pilots have kept themselves very current."

N.B.B. Couple of websites to look at:-

http://www.setp.org/
http://trc.dfrc.nasa.gov/ftintro/
http://www.generalaviation.org/download/AC23-xx-8b-Flight-Test-Guide-Text.pdf (Long one this, but incredibly useful)


N.B.B.B. I'm trying to be realistic, but don't let me put you off; getting into flight testing took most of us years of dedication, and grief. But there's no more interesting job in aviation, for either an Engineer or a Pilot.

[fobotcso]

I couldn't possibly add anything to Genghis's excellent treatise except. perhaps, encouragement.

I wish you had mentioned a degree in an aviation related discipline because that seems to be the norm these days.

But if, at 22 yrs old, you have a yen to become am member of the Test Flying community then you are streets ahead already. Build on your flying now by taking a passionate interest in the didactic aspects of aviation. A lot of it is boring but none of it is useless.

[stellair]

G

Thanks alot, I really appreciate the advice, I wasn't aware it was so engineer orientated (stupid I know, obvious when you think about it:rolleyes: )
Well from the good advice given it looks like a degree really, still it will give me something to keep the brain active while I'm looking for an airline position! Is it possible to do an Aeronautics degree by distance learning? Sorry to ask that but my knowledge on degrees is pretty small as I opted for flight training the minute I left college, missing out on some good times by all accounts:( Do you think some experience on various types and hours in the logbook are the order of the day as I'm sure (no offence) most TP's are much older than me and with some years in the industry prior to assuming the role. Thanks for the links, I will be looking over them in detail within the next day or two, I'm pretty busy trying to take photos and fly a C172 at the moment while the High pressure remains!

;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I am on a bit of a personal crusade to try and get some British universities to offer distance learning first degrees in aeronautics. At present I don't believe that there are any, although I do know somebody who did one part time at Farborough Tech. Embry Riddle in the USA certainly do, and have a pretty good reputation - although it's not cheap. If you find anywhere in the UK doing distance learning, please let us all know because I know a few people I'd like to steer towards one if such exists.

You can do a general Engineering degree with the OU, which is probably the next best thing but lacking things like Mechanics of Flight, Aircraft design, aerodynamics, etc. wouldn't be ideal. I suppose you could try and do that and persuade them to let you take some specialist courses in a fixed university - anything's possible with enough determination. I can certainly put you in touch with a couple of good aero-eng departments if you wish (specifically Southampton and Glasgow where I've reasonable contacts).

Bristol University does a distance learning MSc for aerospace Engineers, you could always see if they'll allow your ATPL + some kind of foundation course to get you going? (They call it IGDS, Integrated Graduate Development Scheme, or something like that anyway).

Experience on a wide variety of types is essential. You're unlikely to find many civil TPs with less than 25 types in the book, and 2-3 times that isn't unusual. Even in the military, pilots need captaincy on 2+ front line types before the system will consider them for TPS. (Looking at my logbook, I had 22 types logged as pilot or FTO before I did ETPS, and that was for the Engineers course !).

G

[Straight Up]

I can confirm Bristol Uni MSc is called IGDS, but I can't remember who it's a partnership between.

I did a couple of modules from the course just as standalone learning, and they weren't bad. Though I did have trouble with some of the aeronautical stuff as I had an electronics background, and hadn't been flight testing for very long.
The 2-3 modules I did where residential types, one at Bristol (Clifton?) and one up near Manchester somewhere (one of the test pilot schools, I forget which). I think a lot of the modules where 1 week residential courses with an assignment to hand in after.

A couple of people where I used to work in the UK did (and may still be) doing the full MSc course, I could probably find out details from them if you want to know who to contact for more info.

SU.

Edited to add: Course was at Woodford, and was actually a Flight Test Principles and Practice module.

[Ringbolt Kilo]

Genghis you get my full support for your crusade.

I’m in the frustrating situation of trying to get further on in the Aero Eng world – with an ultimate view to getting into the Flight Test / Trials Engineering. After numerous rejections for FT jobs requiring minimum of HND Aero Eng / Eng Degree, I’ve come to the conclusion that an Aero Degree is the baseline qualification. For this reason I have been actively reviewing University courses and options of study.

Whilst Part time options are pretty scarce, distance-learning options for first degrees just don’t exist, the exception of course being the Open University as you so rightly mention.

I’ve looked at going down the OU route, and whilst it appears to be a high quality course (I know someone doing it), I agree that it does seem to be too general. I have heard the argument that employers do sometimes favour people with OU degrees as it shows motivation and dedication in addition to ability. But the fact is some of the core elements aren’t covered e.g. Aerodynamics etc. Whilst there is the option to add as you suggest short specialist courses to cover any shortfall, I feel that in the current climate, and with ever tightening training budgets there are going to be very few willing employers.

It is annoying to find that there are so few Universities prepared to offer flexible methods of learning, or perhaps I should be more specific and say so few Aero Eng Faculties. There are seems to be an abundance of other courses out there with very flexible approaches, and these do include other specialisations of engineering.

I can appreciate that to run a full degree course, as a distance-learning package requires more than a bundle of course notes and students completing assignments. It requires access to physical resources, practical lectures, lab work etc but these are not insurmountable problems as the OU has demonstrated for many years through multimedia support, summer schools and similar techniques.

Whilst Universities could argue that the demand for such courses would not be sufficient to counter the financial costs of offering such a programme I think it is a route that would be welcomed by a growing number of people who are avoiding direct university courses due to shear cost.

There seems to be a swell of numbers taking alternative routes to qualification via employment and part time HNC/D and then to degree when they have time and money. Additionally there are a large number of people in the Aero world, who have a wealth of experience and academic ability that would welcome a route through which they could advance. Surely this is a market ripe for picking?

RK

[Genghis the Engineer]

I can appreciate that to run a full degree course, as a distance-learning package requires more than a bundle of course notes and students completing assignments. It requires access to physical resources, practical lectures, lab work etc but these are not insurmountable problems as the OU has demonstrated for many years through multimedia support, summer schools and similar techniques.

Whilst Universities could argue that the demand for such courses would not be sufficient to counter the financial costs of offering such a programme I think it is a route that would be welcomed by a growing number of people who are avoiding direct university courses due to shear cost.

There seems to be a swell of numbers taking alternative routes to qualification via employment and part time HNC/D and then to degree when they have time and money. Additionally there are a large number of people in the Aero world, who have a wealth of experience and academic ability that would welcome a route through which they could advance. Surely this is a market ripe for picking?


I've heard arguments that it's all too difficult or there wouldn't be enough demand from several university sources, and frankly I think they're fallacious. Aerospace is I believe the 3rd biggest industry in the UK after finance and tourism, and to say there wouldn't be uptake in the most fundamental subject within it I think is daft. So yes, I agree with you.

My brother did an OU biology degree, the kit of stuff they sent him was fantastic. If they can send out DIY dissection kits, I can't imagine a small wind tunnel can be any harder.

G

[stellair]

Guys

I seem to remember my Met instructor at ppsc (John Standen) telling me that the JAA ATPL theory, as it is all 'approved training', is accepted at uni's as the equivalent of a BSc in something aerospace operations or other? If this is the case, which I shall investigate, then would that not allow me to distance learn for an MSc as previously mentioned ?


Regards all........S

[john_tullamarine]

.. venturing a guess here for the UK situation, I would be surprised if the ATPL would rate much within the academic sphere.

Although the level of student application required to get through the ATPL is certainly on a par with, and in many cases of a higher level than an undergrad workload, it would be necessary to sound out the particular institution you might have in mind ... certainly you might get a hearing in respect of mature age entry.

It always amused me that, for the ATPL, the pass was a fence .. enough marks and you clambered over ... a mark or two short and you fell back on the start side and had to have another go ... yet, as an electronics lecturer put it to us many decades ago when we complained that a particular exam was over the top ... the university applies the well known "zero shifting theorem" and assesses on the basis of a reasonable statistical comparison between this year's crop of students and past historical results.

Wish you all the luck in the world, though ... go for it ....