Edinburgh Tattoo flypasts to be banned??

[chopper2004]

Apparently there are calls for flypasts to be banned because they cause emotional problems (and chuck in keeping the environment )

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-castle-calls-for-tattoo-plane-flyovers-to-be-banned-over-emotional-harm-4680027#commentsWidget

Beggars belief if this is true and the authorities to carry this out...

I was attending the first day of ITEC military simualtion exhibtion beginning of April this year at the Excel and in between meetings and flying the various sims, I checked my FB. There were umpteen moaning and complaining on friends and friends of friends pages, plus local news rag about the four ship of Lakenheath's finest four ship F-35A decided to drop into my local airport EGSC.

A lot of the comments that jet noise affected their mental health, upsetted them or thought the balloon had gone up...

cheers

[reds & greens]

That awful combination of 'screaming cat and mechanical octopus' (aka Bagpipes), does my head in at times; should that also be banned from the Tattoo...

[falcon900]

I would have thought the firing of the one o’clock gun in Edinburgh every day might be more likely to traumatise veterans ( who don’t seem to be complaining about any of it) and the hot air and methane given off by councillors and all the MSPs in Edinburgh far more damaging to the environment , not to mention the rest of our lives.
Ever trying to find a compromise though, I would be willing to trade the flypasts for them all b*****ing off and shutting up.

[treadigraph]

That awful combination of 'screaming cat and mechanical octopus' (aka Bagpipes), does my head in at times; should that also be banned from the Tattoo...
I quite like bagpipes... but only from a distance!

(Once had them played inches from me lughole in a Hamble pub as Scotland came on at Twickenham, my eardrum was rippling... got my revenge at half time when I asked if they'd be playing a lament when the game resumed...)

[TURIN]

Typical clickbait 'news' article.
People complain about noise from events every year, doesn't mean to say they are suggesting to ban it.

[LS8C1]

I took part in a VE day flypast over Edinburgh Castle in 2020 (Covid lockdown). It wasn't advertised as they didn't want large crowds gathering.
The number 'complaints, was immense. Not so much down to noise (although many were) but on the grounds of 'Covid'. ie 'why am I in lockdown when the RAF can seemingly do as they wish.

[B Fraser]

I would have thought the firing of the one o’clock gun in Edinburgh every day might be more likely to traumatise veterans.

During Pride month, the gun is fired using special rounds that go ......"Poof".

(if anyone is offended, this will probably be shunted off to Jet Blast and a gay mate told me the joke. He doesn't conform to the LGBTQR2D2 politics due to having a sense of humour).

[Union Jack]

What a bunch of dismal jimmies now running, or more realistically ruining, the city of my birth - noting that they have already succeeded in having the One O'Clock Gun being made quieter from earlier this year. Many Edinburgh people have always had a bit of fun not giving visitors any advance warning about the gun going off - stand fast Sundays, Good Friday and Christmas Day, Falcon 900!:)

And now, so much for the "Sound of Freedom"!:(

Jack

[Tartiflette Fan]

I would have thought the firing of the one o’clock gun in Edinburgh every day might be more likely to traumatise veterans ( who don’t seem to be complaining about any of it) and the hot air and methane given off by councillors and all the MSPs in Edinburgh far more damaging to the environment , not to mention the rest of our lives.
Ever trying to find a compromise though, I would be willing to trade the flypasts for them all b*****ing off and shutting up.

"Health and safety 'killjoys' tried to end 160 years of naval history by stopping the daily firing of an artillery gun at Edinburgh (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/edinburgh/index.html) Castle.Bureaucrats wanted to stop the 'One O'Clock Gun' ritual, started in 1861, from this Bank Holiday weekend over concerns the noise could damage people's hearing.

Now Defence Secretary Grant Shapps (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/grant-shapps/index.html) has ordered them to continue the ritual originally devised to allow ships to set their maritime clocks.

It has since become a fundamental part of Edinburgh and military history – being fired daily at 1pm, except on Sundays, Good Friday and Christmas (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/christmas/index.html) Day – and draws crowds of tourists.

A Ministry of Defence source dismissed those trying to stop the spectacle as 'health and safety killjoys', adding: 'This level of risk avoidance is ludicrous."

April 2024 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13258279/Health-safety-naval-history-firing-artillery-gun-Edinburgh-Castle.html

[megan]

the ritual originally devised to allow ships to set their maritime clocksWas due allowance made for the distance twix gun and ship? ;)

[Kiltrash]

Ow about banning the 42 gun salute for Trooping the Colour then . ..
Or the occasional 6" from HMS Belfast that is more of a surprise to the tourists

[DaveReidUK]

Was due allowance made for the distance twix gun and ship? ;)

The sailors have a ball. :O


eZ5cfrJ1SSM

[Sloppy Link]

This is more disappointing…
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/29/no-national-event-for-armed-forces-day/

[Gordon Brown]

This is more disappointing…
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/29/no-national-event-for-armed-forces-day/

Is anybody really surprised? A reaction to the rising number of casualties that were occurring in Afghanistan, and an opportunity for the populace to show their support for the Forces, but I feel it was inevitable that interest would plummet once we fell out of the headlines again. I'm just a little surprised that it took this long. People have got other things to worry about in their own lives and I suspect that the Forces are very low down the priority list of the majority of the population. Is it too much to say that an Armed Forces Day just isn't 'British'?

I was at Kandahar when the first Armed Forces Day was held. It was met with total indifference.

[Stuck On The Ground]

I see that the Pride march is being held in London today. Maybe that's a better reflection of the nation's priorities.

[Spunky Monkey]

I see that the Pride march is being held in London today. Maybe that's a better reflection of the nation's priorities.

Please substitute the word "Nation's" with Politician's.

[BEagle]

Perhaps a reaction to this nonsense could be a suitably constructed contrail?

Allegedly, back when we had an air force of a size worthy of the title, some weekend warrior of the RAuxAF drew an impressive one which gently drifted in the direction of Edinburgh. But some local Man of God rang the station to mention this obscene doodle heading towards the god-fearing population and demanded that Something Be Done.

So the RAuxAF squadron boss ordered a battle climb for his pilots, who formed into line abreast and flew through the offending image. Then with some deft formation manoeuvring they flew through it again at 90° to the original track, before returning to base.

So instead of a slowly dissipating image, which might not have been noticed by many, there was now a large crossed-out version which certainly would have been. The reaction of the original complainer was not recorded!

[chevvron]

I see that the Pride march is being held in London today. Maybe that's a better reflection of the nation's priorities.
Why do they not treat everyone equally by not having a parade specifically for 'gay pride'?

[Biggus]

Because, while everyone is equal, some are more equal than others....

[ninja-lewis]

Was due allowance made for the distance twix gun and ship? ;)
https://maps.nls.uk/view/117745395

[Lomon]

Presumably now that the pandas are gone there will be no NOTAM to avoid overflying the zoo and disrupting the panda breeding programme.

[Lomon]

Perhaps a reaction to this nonsense could be a suitably constructed contrail?


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/a81d8578_d61d_441f_9601_5f76fd299d5a_1_105_c_12a6fd83214c167 22e9b2c25e623a18c3c52c8da.jpeg
Something like this?

[Finningley Boy]

It has occurred to me in the past and recently, what will the new Labour government's position be on the likes of RIAT? and other airshows? Should the same mindset which now complains about mental health being at risk from a sedate flypast over Auld Reekie, start looking around for something of tradition and which "promotes the arms industry" and presents far more robust flying for public consumption, to ban? We are currently living through an era in which nuerotic mawkishness has seized the souls of many people, this is the very thing which the liberal left love to weave their concerns around. Somebody in Edinburgh some years back joined the protest against the flypast for the Tattoo by complaining that she thought WW3 was underway. This sort of nonsense is entirely confected of course, I believe the modern description is gaslighting!

FB

[Union Jack]

The sailors have a ball. :O


eZ5cfrJ1SSM

Further to DR's post here's more about the history about ball being dropped from the Nelson Monument (https://edinburghguide.com/venues/museums/nelson-monument#:~:text=It%20had%20not%20been%20operational,employe e%20of%20Ritchie%20%26%20Sons%20Clockmakers.&text=The%20site%20of%20the%20Nelson,to%20ships%20in%20the%20 Forth.) at 1300Z daily, a practice which preceded the One O'Clock Gun.https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Jack

[langleybaston]

Further to DR's post here's more about the history about ball being dropped from the Nelson Monument (https://edinburghguide.com/venues/museums/nelson-monument#:~:text=It%20had%20not%20been%20operational,employe e%20of%20Ritchie%20%26%20Sons%20Clockmakers.&text=The%20site%20of%20the%20Nelson,to%20ships%20in%20the%20 Forth.) at 1300Z daily, a practice which preceded the One O'Clock Gun.https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Jack

One assumes it was Nelson's one ball.

[Union Jack]

Ow about banning the 42 gun salute for Trooping the Colour then . ..
Or the occasional 6" from HMS Belfast that is more of a surprise to the tourists

Better still would have been a twelve gun six inch salvo such as was last fired by BELFAST in October 1968!

Jack

[megan]

ninja, many thanks for the link, they thought of absolutely everything back in 1861. Raised the question as I was thinking of the navigator setting the ships chronometer, would not see the ball drop on a misty day.

[DaveReidUK]

Further to DR's post here's more about the history about ball being dropped from the Nelson Monument (https://edinburghguide.com/venues/museums/nelson-monument#:~:text=It%20had%20not%20been%20operational,employe e%20of%20Ritchie%20%26%20Sons%20Clockmakers.&text=The%20site%20of%20the%20Nelson,to%20ships%20in%20the%20 Forth.) at 1300Z daily, a practice which preceded the One O'Clock Gun

Both the ball and the gun operate at 1300 local time.

[langleybaston]

Both the ball and the gun operate at 1300 local time.

@twas in the Adriatic, the water was so static, the rise and fall of **** and ball was purely automatic.

Authority: The Good ship Venus.

[DuncanDoenitz]

So as an OOW on a foggy day in, say, Victoria Dock, I would simply hack 11 seconds before I heard the gun. Another skill we have lost in the digital age.

[El Grifo]

Lived South of Edinburgh many years ago right in the heart of the Low Flying Zone. Very close to a very obvious IP for the Otterburn ranges.
The locals used to rage at the low flying wheras in my case, I loved it. Especially during Mallet Blow Exercises.
One of the lousiest reasons why they wanted it banned, was due to the fear that a low flyer could crash into the then recently constructed Torness Nuke.
Some time later, a plan was submitted to construct a windfarm on the high ground just South of Edinburgh.
The complaint then was that it might endanger the low flying aircraft and restrict their training !!

Same old Same old !!

[langleybaston]

So as an OOW on a foggy day in, say, Victoria Dock, I would simply hack 11 seconds before I heard the gun. Another skill we have lost in the digital age.

Before??????????

[GeeRam]

Lived South of Edinburgh many years ago right in the heart of the Low Flying Zone. Very close to a very obvious IP for the Otterburn ranges.
The locals used to rage at the low flying wheras in my case, I loved it. Especially during Mallet Blow Exercises.
One of the lousiest reasons why they wanted it banned, was due to the fear that a low flyer could crash into the then recently constructed Torness Nuke.


One of the original design criteria for Torness NPS (and its sister station Heysham II) was actually survivability of a high speed impact from a F-4 Phantom.

[El Grifo]

One of the original design criteria for Torness NPS (and its sister station Heysham II) was actually survivability of a high speed impact from a F-4 Phantom.

Wow ! That is a surprise !
Was tha criteria definitely met .

Seen the size of the hole an F111 made 16 or so miles away near Lauder !
Bigger Airframe obvs !

[GeeRam]

Wow ! That is a surprise !
Was tha criteria definitely met .


Yes it was.
Was designed for a B747 impact as well.

[El Grifo]

Yes it was.
Was designed for a B747 impact as well.

Now you are taking the Pizza :-)
Surely !!

[Ninthace]

Specially reinforced concrete versus a soft aluminium tube designed to withstand internal, not external pressure? The engines would be the things to worry about if anything.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Before??????????
Exactly.

Alternatively; when I hear the bang I start a stopwatch. At 49 seconds I hack my chronometer on 13.01.

As a further alternative, since no ships are within under one second anyway, why don't they fire the gun at 12.59, and issue a map with concentric circles indicating the interval after the gun by which to delay one's hack.

[GeeRam]

Now you are taking the Pizza :-)
Surely !!

F-4 impact was more onerous in terms of point of impact energy IIRC, on the reactor building, but 747 had a greater effect on surrounding station infrastructure because of fire damage from fuel load.....but its 40+ years ago, so my memory isn't quite what it was in terms of the exact details.....as I was only a trainee at the time, but I do remember the discussions about it.
Ironically, one of the original structural designer Engineer's at the time, his son had just joined the RAF Regiment, and a few years later sailed south with the Task Force with the Rapier units.

[langleybaston]

Exactly.

Alternatively; when I hear the bang I start a stopwatch. At 49 seconds I hack my chronometer on 13.01.

As a further alternative, since no ships are within under one second anyway, why don't they fire the gun at 12.59, and issue a map with concentric circles indicating the interval after the gun by which to delay one's hack.

Thank you but I don't understand how someone could know when it is eleven sconds before hearing something. I only had one Warsteiner with Sunday lunch.

[DaveReidUK]

So as an OOW on a foggy day in, say, Victoria Dock

Navigating your ship into Victoria Dock (https://canmore.org.uk/site/51981/edinburgh-leith-docks-victoria-dock), whether foggy or not, would be rather career-limiting.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Thank you but I don't understand how someone could know when it is eleven sconds before hearing something. I only had one Warsteiner with Sunday lunch.
Exactly my point. (The bang, not the Wobbly. Cheers! btw).

Hence my alternatives.

[Davef68]

More Scottish Green party lunacy. Akin to the 'poppies might upset muslims' ideology of being offended on behalf of someone else without actually researching it.

[Davef68]

Lived South of Edinburgh many years ago right in the heart of the Low Flying Zone. Very close to a very obvious IP for the Otterburn ranges.
The locals used to rage at the low flying wheras in my case, I loved it. Especially during Mallet Blow Exercises.
One of the lousiest reasons why they wanted it banned, was due to the fear that a low flyer could crash into the then recently constructed Torness Nuke.
!

Not entirely unfounded, IIRC the pilot of ZE830 managed to ensure it was pointing away from Torness when their engines failed and they had to eject.

[B Fraser]

More Scottish Green party lunacy. Akin to the 'poppies might upset muslims' ideology of being offended on behalf of someone else without actually researching it.

Forgive me if I got this wrong but are there not a lot of Muslims in Afghanistan who cultivate poppies ? We should all wear one in celebration of their main agriculture industry.

;)

[El Grifo]

Not entirely unfounded, IIRC the pilot of ZE830 managed to ensure it was pointing away from Torness when their engines failed and they had to eject.
Interesting ! Did not know about that one. I left Scotland in '93 so not surprising !

Also interesting is that a couple of the more informed members here advise me that Torness was constructed to withstand exactly such an impact.

Doubly interesting that one contributer went as far as to say Torness Nuclear Power Station could withstand a direct impact from a 747 airliner.
Not sure if the residents of Sherwood Crescent would be convinced !

[GeeRam]

Doubly interesting that one contributer went as far as to say Torness Nuclear Power Station could withstand a direct impact from a 747 airliner.
Not sure if the residents of Sherwood Crescent would be convinced !

I think you're miss understanding the design criteria and what was designed to survive and what wasn't designed to survive impact.
The critical items are the two reactors within the reactor building and the actual pressure vessels themselves withstanding this impact load and thus any radiation escape etc. This is where the Phantom and 747 scenario's were designed for.
In the case of the 747, as I already mentioned, while the pressure vessels are designed to survive in terms of radiation containment, the rest of the station buildings etc would be pretty much totally destroyed, especially with regard fuel load, as per WTC 1 & 2 in 9/11, and as you mentioned, Sherwood Crescent.

[treadigraph]

Did somebody mention F-4s and Nuclear Power Station construction? Test in 1988...

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/768x545/til_that_in_1988_researchers_ran_a_jet_at_500mph_into_a_v0_o lz5wojdlsu_zqndmjikdn4_cgvvk4845h6pu3lfv3w_d00410a549dfea2ae 9a4a8914d86588e5f3923f0.jpg

Sort of like the tests that colleagues of mine used to conduct at Spadeadam only they used explosives and they weren't designing nuclear power stations!

[El Grifo]

I think you're miss understanding the design criteria and what was designed to survive and what wasn't designed to survive impact.
The critical items are the two reactors within the reactor building and the actual pressure vessels themselves withstanding this impact load and thus any radiation escape etc. This is where the Phantom and 747 scenario's were designed for.
In the case of the 747, as I already mentioned, while the pressure vessels are designed to survive in terms of radiation containment, the rest of the station buildings etc would be pretty much totally destroyed, especially with regard fuel load, as per WTC 1 & 2 in 9/11, and as you mentioned, Sherwood Crescent.

Thanks for the clarification !
I do believe however that the main concern was radiation leak due to damage to the pressure vessel, cooling systems and ancillary components.
Can you clarify if that fear was totally unfounded ?

[Ninthace]

Think of it in relativistic terms, If the 747 was stationary and the specially reinforced concrete casing of a reactor containment vessel, weighing way, way more than a 747 ran into it, where would you place your bet?

The pressure vessel etc is inside the containment, they are not one and the same.

[El Grifo]

Think of it in relativistic terms, If the 747 was stationary and the specially reinforced concrete casing of a reactor containment vessel, weighing way, way more than a 747 ran into it, where would you place your bet?

The pressure vessel etc is inside the containment, they are not one and the same.

All very interesting Nithace ! But the local populace were actually wondering if there would be any kind of radioactive leak if a low level RAF fighter, most likely a Tornado, were to crash into the Station.
Nobody really worried too much about 747's
The area was a designated military low fly zone !
This is where my part in the discussion started !
Thank you for your input however !

[Ninthace]

747 or Tornado , the same principle applies. Tornado not designed for impact with a solid object and weighs less than a 747, containment vessel design for this express purpose amongst other things, All the nasties are hidden away inside the containment vessel inside the primary loop. Prime purpose of the containment vessel is to contain a failure of the primary loop. To release serious nasties you would have to breech the containment vessel and then the breech primary loop - ideally the reactor pressure vessel, which in itself is a pretty solid piece of kit.

[El Grifo]

Thanks Ninthace !
Very interesting !
As part of the Regional Disaster and Emergency Commitee we were treated to a full tour of Torness not long after it opened !

[Ninthace]

The only thing that ought to be radioactive in a nuclear power plant should be the core and its components and all that should be inside the containment vessel.

[MightyGem]

Did somebody mention F-4s and Nuclear Power Station construction? Test in 1988...

Here's the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4CX-9lkRMQ&t=3s
The aircraft just disappears. In the opening shot, from the right hand side, you can see the right wingtip continuing as if nothing has happened.

[GeeRam]

The only thing that ought to be radioactive in a nuclear power plant should be the core and its components and all that should be inside the containment vessel.

Exactly.
Everything outside of that was effectively sacrificial, as long as the containment design could survive a direct impact, which is what it was designed for.
As point of interest, the Chief Engineer responsible for the external superstructure, so all the buildings outside of the containment, such as the Reactor Building, Turbine Hall, and all other ancillary superstructures, was ex-RAF wartime Bomber Command, and had completed a tour as a Lancaster Nav, which included the Dresden rail.

[El Grifo]

How come a Tsunami, not of the greatest magnitude, cause so much trouble at Fukishima !
Different system to the Torness AGR ?

How come a failure of the cooling system at Chernobyl caused so much damage and distress ?
Different system ?

How come there is so much concern over the loss of electrical power in the Ukranian Nuclear Plant ?

What happened exactly at 3 Mile Island ?

Struggling to accept the concept of a 747 directly hitting a Nuclear Power Station with zero knock on effect !

Forgive my cynicism !