Batik Canberra

[nomess]

They appeared to have got completely lost when it came to CTAF procedures also, centre attempted conveying information but the concept appeared lost on them.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2024/report/ao-2024-035

[pinkpanther1]

They appeared to have got completely lost when it came to CTAF procedures also, centre attempted conveying information but the concept appeared lost on them.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2024/report/ao-2024-035

The live atc recording paints a scary picture.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

That’s pretty impressive for a service that started only a week or two ago.

[601]

Are "route endorsements" still in fashion?

[Stationair8]

Poor bastards operating into a third world country, what do you expect?

Do people pay to fly to Canberra?

[Switchbait]

I’m sure they will be unfamiliar with the concept of a nation’s Capital aerodome, not having 24 hour ATC, and all that goes with that.

Our airspace and “services” are truely second class.

That said, they should know how to read a Jeppesen chart.

[Colonel_Klink]

The live atc recording paints a scary picture.

Do you have a link?

[markis10]

https://www.liveatc.net/archive.php?m=yscb2_all

13th june at 1930UTC

[dr dre]

FR24 track shows they descended to 4500’ in the hold at MOMBI with a minimum altitude of 5600’ 😨

Highest spot height below them was 3947’ 😨

[Hollywood1]

What do you expect from a Lion Group airline? Batik Air is Lion Air's full service airline.

[witwiw]

Might explain why the next two flights were cancelled.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-14/canberra-to-bali-flights-take-off-batik-air/103977862

Although, the potential for CFIT is somewhat more than “teething troubles”. 😬

[nomess]

From the 28 minute mark.
Listen from 20, that’s where the real confusion starts to set in. Before that the only issue was not being aware of the R airspace.

They had no idea they entered Golf, and seemed lost on any procedures.

[TimmyTee]

Just listened to the recording
(it's actually 13th June, 19:30-20:00 and starts around 13:20 mark)

First 7 minutes is them on the Avbeg 5A, continually asking for descent below 10,000 (well prior to Lanyo - an at or above 10k step due to the Deep Space observatory)

It then sounds like they don't descent below MSA, and spend multiple minutes trying to get a clearance to fly the ILS approach - the female ATC keeps telling them it's not required and there's no IFR traffic (it appears that term really confuses them). There's a lot of confusion and poor radio txs, with both parties not understanding the other.

After turning back north on the STAR, it then appears that they must have "missed" the slope, so request an orbit (again, told they are OCTA and no clearance needed - but I'm assuming to protect them, ATC requests the orbit to be right hand did to avoid that same Restricted area).
It's this hold that must have taken them below MSA while outbound.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/729x1071/screenshot_20240622_091741_samsung_internet_beta_2_0ffa23142 f0613cc725c7cc33b4e32334ed67dfa.jpg

Finally, tower opens just prior to 6am, but they can't raise BTK6015 for quite a few attempts - they are on short final but appear to be on area frequency. They finally get a nudge from that controller and go to tower who immediately clears them to land.

So appears zero CTAF calls were made (nor was it monitored)
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/BTK6015/history/20240613/1420Z/WADD/YSCB

[mince]

It still blows my mind that the capital city of Australia’s airport isn’t controlled airspace 24/7

[witwiw]

Pitch black at that time so blissfully unaware ……….

IF any ground lighting was visible it would have been in the valleys and not on the high ground.

[Hollywood1]

And not long ago, both Batik Air pilots fell asleep on their way to Jakarta. This wasn't a back of the clock flight; it was a morning flight departing at 0800 LT.

https://avherald.com/h?article=515e310c

Says a lot about their safety culture.

[big buddah]

Don’t blame the crew, they’re the end result of a chain of failures.
One being an international capital airport going CTAF.

[Lookleft]

I’m sure they will be unfamiliar with the concept of a nation’s Capital aerodome, not having 24 hour ATC, and all that goes with that.Our airspace and “services” are truely second class.That said, they should know how to read a Jeppesen chart.

​​​​​​​What do you expect from a Lion Group airline? Batik Air is Lion Air's full service airline.

Good job that all the other "proper" airlines flying into Canberra don't have this problem. Oh that's right........ https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2004/aair/aair200402747

I'm sure Batik would have been fine if Canberra had ATC in operation. Same as Qantas would have been 20 years ago!

[Car RAMROD]

It might be smart if they scheduled their operation more appropriately. You know, when the ATC is open if CTAF is giving them difficulties. Who decided on the schedule, the flight operations department or the beancounters?

Or route brief/train better. That might help. Especially if it is a new service that has some specific considerations to cover. Did they rush this service in and miss a comprehensive briefing package?

[LivingtheDream46]

This is a disgrace, why aren't people more outraged by this? If you did this at QF you would be fired!

[krismiler]

Do they have a route guide to assist in planning the arrival, ie what to expect and potential hazards ? CTAF procedures need to be incorporated as non Australians wouldn't be familiar with them, though it's a bit surprising to need them at a Capital city.

They probably arrived expecting radar vectors onto the ILS and were clueless when this didn't happen. A high level of situational awareness is required when operating in the vicinity of terrain, and yes they should have been able to read an approach plate.

[KAPAC]

Real lack of studying the destination and little to no route briefing from flight ops is evident . Normal operations for them , even into small regional airports around south east Asia would be controlled airspace and a tower . Arriving into Australian at its capital and not been told what to do would never have been imagined .

[43Inches]

If anyone witnessed the Bonza ring-ins in action you would have seen most pilots from outside of Australia struggle with our OCTA/CTAF concepts when operating larger flying machines. Expecting foreign pilots to operate into CTAFs is going to have these events, even when they work for the local operators. Even the definition of 'visual' and the pilots responsibilities in CTA varies between nations, let alone OCTA.

If you did this at QF you would be fired!

Retrained, no one gets fired unless they have done it multiple times, or intentionally break the rules, and even then you get demoted first.

[nomess]

As this was an inaugural flight, new destination for the operator, it was highly likely senior pilots of the company was flying the route. Likely however makes no difference if the local procedures have never been internally briefed as part of any approach route.

We have seen a few foreign operators get lost with local CTAF procedures recently. If your TIBA, you might get lucky and have someone jump in if one is heading for terrain, busting mins, or collision etc. Unless you have a centre controller with time, and perhaps nervous, you might get some assistance if things are about to hit the wall, in G, however chances are extremely low. I didn’t hear any comms here that they busted the mins.

Remember the Perth fuel fiasco, many went to non towered airports further north, and needed considerable guidance from centre on how to get in. Krismiler is correct however. Many foreign operators will have diversion ports in Class G, especially WA, but the training department have given no guidance on how to tackle the airspace should that need to occur.

‘No reported IFR Traffic’ often confuses the heck of out them.

[43Inches]

Also sobering to remember that a VA aircraft descended below minimum altitude close to terrain in Cairns not long ago, a QF crew also made the same mistake at the same place.

[DJ737]

It might be smart if they scheduled their operation more appropriately. You know, when the ATC is open if CTAF is giving them difficulties. Who decided on the schedule, the flight operations department or the beancounters?

Or route brief/train better. That might help. Especially if it is a new service that has some specific considerations to cover. Did they rush this service in and miss a comprehensive briefing package?
The flight was scheduled to arrive at 07:00LT but it seems they were early, maybe should have delayed departure from DPS to arrive nearer 07:00LT?

[Lookleft]

Many foreign operators will have diversion ports in Class G, especially WA, but the training department have given no guidance on how to tackle the airspace should that need to occur.

Jetstar use Makassar as an alternate for Bali. Good luck to anyone diverting there on min fuel and an unfamiliar airport. The training department have no interest in preparing crew for a possibility they are too busy just getting through the required training.

[esreverlluf]

Jetstar use Makassar as an alternate for Bali. Good luck to anyone diverting there on min fuel and an unfamiliar airport. The training department have no interest in preparing crew for a possibility they are too busy just getting through the required training.

Not a fair comparison! Makassar and even Lombok for that matter have a 24 control service for a start - and both of those places are way more interesting Canberra!

[Lookleft]

Lombok for that matter have a 24 control service for a start From what I can recall Lombok would be closed for runway maintenance so it wasn't available 24/7, thats why Makassar was nominated on the flight plan.

[neville_nobody]

Airspace aside how do you descend through the nominated holding altitude published on the chart? Or why didn't they fly a STAR in and join up with the ILS that way? Pretty basic airmanship.

[Stationair8]

The 35 ILS in both Jeppesen and ASA chart for Canberra is not easy to read.

Seems to be lots of little traps for tired eyes at o dark 30 after a long sector.

The usual chart full off clutter, doesn’t help situational awareness.

Why a holding pattern at Mombi and not at Menzie?

Many years ago the Moorabbin NDB and this one in particular was raised at RAPAC, in relation to the complexity of the chart, and perhaps simplifying the approach plates.

Or perhaps the crew were overwhelmed with all the NOTAM’s for obstructions at YSCB?

[Lead Balloon]

Maybe the same reason the Qantas co-pilot put the erroneous entry into the FMC, and the pilot didn't pick it up, back in 2004?

[maggot]

Maybe the same reason the Qantas co-pilot put the erroneous entry into the FMC, and the pilot didn't pick it up, back in 2004?

What, batik had a 40°+ flight deck temp?

[AmarokGTI]

Are "route endorsements" still in fashion?

Yes, ICAO requirement.

Annex 6, Part I
9.4.3 "Pilot in command area, route and aerodrome qualification"

[Lookleft]

What, batik had a 40°+ flight deck temp?

Neither did QF:
​​​​​​​
​​​​​​​Both pilots reported that conditions on the flight deck were very abnormally hot throughout the duration of the flight. The copilot reported that the flight
deck supply duct temperature gauge ‘was showing 50 degrees [Celsius] most of the time and at times was up to 60 degrees’. When the cabin temperature
is comfortable at approximately 22 to 24 degrees Celsius (C), the flight deck supply duct temperature gauge normally indicates around 40° C.
Although the investigation was unable to determine the actual flight deck temperature, it is likely that the faulty air conditioning system provided
abnormally hot air to the flight deck. (For more detail on the faulty air conditioning system, refer to section 1.6).

[ozbiggles]

It still blows my mind that the capital city of Australia’s airport isn’t controlled airspace 24/7

Wha do you think it would cost to man a tower 24/ 7 for one RPT arrival between midnight and 6am for the entire year? If the crew aren’t trained for CTAF, then risk manage it to arrive during CTA only unless your happy to pay more tax. There are multiple breakdowns in this, the crew were just the last ones in this cluster Fox Uniform Charlie Kilo.

[MikeHatter732]

They probably arrived expecting radar vectors onto the ILS and were clueless when this didn't happen. A high level of situational awareness is required when operating in the vicinity of terrain, and yes they should have been able to read an approach plate.
It’s a closed STAR. Yes, no ATC adds some holes to the Swiss cheese but ultimately this one falls on the crew IMO.

[StudentInDebt]

Jetstar use Makassar as an alternate for Bali. Good luck to anyone diverting there on min fuel and an unfamiliar airport. The training department have no interest in preparing crew for a possibility they are too busy just getting through the required training.Makassar is a better airfield than Bali, full ATC, ILS to both ends of the long runway, apron separated from parallel taxiway.

[witwiw]

The flight was scheduled to arrive at 07:00LT but it seems they were early, maybe should have delayed departure from DPS to arrive nearer 07:00LT?

An hour early 🤔. Enroute wind forecast obviously a tad off.

[swh]

Why a holding pattern at Mombi and not at Menzie?

Terrain ?

Makassar is a better airfield than Bali, full ATC, ILS to both ends of the long runway, apron separated from parallel taxiway.

I would prefer to carry UPG, coming into UPG from DPS your over water, the terrain is to the east of the VOR. If you have fuel for UPG, you have fuel for SUB as well.

UPG, DPS etc all have published terrain charts, good luck to have one for CBR.

[Transition Layer]

The 35 ILS in both Jeppesen and ASA chart for Canberra is not easy to read.

Seems to be lots of little traps for tired eyes at o dark 30 after a long sector.

The usual chart full off clutter, doesn’t help situational awareness.

Why a holding pattern at Mombi and not at Menzie?

Many years ago the Moorabbin NDB and this one in particular was raised at RAPAC, in relation to the complexity of the chart, and perhaps simplifying the approach plates.

Or perhaps the crew were overwhelmed with all the NOTAM’s for obstructions at YSCB?

If you simply descend via the STAR, it will put you on the correct vertical path at MENZI to pick up the ILS. Seems it all went a bit pear shaped when they got high for whatever reason.

As for the hold at MOMBI instead of MENZI, I assume it’s due to the terrain to the south when you’re outbound. The minimum holding altitude at MENZI would likely be too high to allow interception of the glideslope for the ILS, but that’s just a guess.

[dr dre]

Minimum altitude step approaching MOMBI on the ILS 35 is 4600’. This is the altitude they seemed to have flown the pattern at. However the minimum holding altitude at MOMBI is 5600’, which is only written as a note on the DAP chart and without specify it’s a minimum altitude:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1266x1716/110b8692_cc76_4b01_8526_7543e2ae7802_51ed50681907f9136e1279d 8594e985df38cf348.jpeg

They may have set 4600’ as a minimum approaching MOMBI, then flown the hold for whatever reason and missed the minimum altitude of 5600’? Fatigue, lack of familiarity, lack of ATC, poorly designed chart all may have contributed.

[BuzzBox]

Minimum altitude step approaching MOMBI on the ILS 35 is 4600’. This is the altitude they seemed to have flown the pattern at. However the minimum holding altitude at MOMBI is 5600’, which is only written as a note on the DAP chart and without specify it’s a minimum altitude...

I agree with most of what you said, but it does say "MIN ALT" in the holding box at the top of the chart. The note at the bottom of the chart refers to the maximum speed in the hold at either 5,600ft or 6,000ft.

That said, international operators would not normally use Airservices charts. It would be interesting to know what type of chart they were using and how the holding information was presented.

[LivingtheDream46]

"The ATSB says it is now collecting evidence in relation to the incident – which it has classified as serious — and will release a final report by the end of the year. "

[43Inches]

That hold in that position has always been a strange and in reality a stupid place for it. I remember years ago this was part of the command check to line in the sim for a regional, you had to be really careful about what altitude and speed you chose to hold at or you would be facing another go at it later. I heard of more than one potential captain coming unstuck there. It really is a trap if you are at high workload and don't read the chart thoroughly.

[BuzzBox]

Here's an example of a Jeppesen chart for the YSCB ILS-Y 35, taken from the x-plane.org website. The minimum holding altitude at MOMBI is clear as mud.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/673x1200/img_0095_jpeg_72b219e9492aecea179f99ea99582f14_jpeg_2e08382e 4d5fca95bd1a859eee541235abb47500.jpg

[KAPAC]

How many airlines from overseas can legally operate into Canberra , say 100 flights from operators from India to Japan where to do same flight under same conditions with crews also not familiar with local procedures , how many would you estimate to get it correct. Missing that hold height is a worry .

[framer]

I would have thought they would be using Jepps.
I feel like the notes could have a statement about descending when inbound once established on the glide path to make things clearer. That said, I also feel like a good route briefing produced by the company would highlight the terrain risk and give guidance. Seems like lots of factors, time of day, familiarity, complexity, and potentially Flt ops guidance. I would also be interested in the number of flight and duty hours in last few months/ days. Lots to look at.

[krismiler]

The Jeppesen plate is less clear than the Air Services one, at least ASA use the word HLDG in the text. It’s a bit unusual to have a higher holding altitude than the crossing altitude on the approach, obviously due to turning back towards high terrain in the hold. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a chart revision soon which makes things clearer.

Planning an approach into an unfamiliar airport isn’t best done at 0 dark o’clock at the end of a long flight when pushed for time. A thorough review of the route guide and charts can be done earlier on when everyone is awake and there is plenty of time to resolve any queries and formulate a plan. The approach briefing prior to TOD should be a simple recap of what’s already be gone through and understood.

[TimmyTee]

Going off their "request descent" and "request approach clearance" I reckon they were under the impression they couldn't commence the ILS without clearance (ie had no idea they were in class G).
And so they missed the capture, and requested a hold.
It didn't even sound like the hold was at any particular waypoint, they just held and clearly descended during it (perhaps outbound?) so they could re-capture the glideslope on the inbound.

Unless i missed it, there was no alert provided to them for going below MSA? (again, they were OCTA so not sure if that's a requirement by ATC)

[Stu2d2]

From memory that AVBEG star gives a ‘steep descent’ alert which likely didn’t help proceedings.

[nomess]

I didn’t hear anything, however whilst separation, sequencing etc isn’t required, I’d be interested to hear if any safety alerts appear on the centre, approach, tower’s screens?

Something happened at Proserpine the other month, seems like a report never popped up, but we heard a RPT departing did something wrong upwind, centre jumped on and seemed to provide separation and a wtf are you doing, I assume they had a discussion before departing and they didn’t follow instructions, someone was watching closely however.

I guess it depends how closely some controllers are watching.

[hasonjarfield]

I didn’t hear anything, however whilst separation, sequencing etc isn’t required, I’d be interested to hear if any safety alerts appear on the centre, approach, tower’s screens?

Something happened at Proserpine the other month, seems like a report never popped up, but we heard a RPT departing did something wrong upwind, centre jumped on and seemed to provide separation and a wtf are you doing, I assume they had a discussion before departing and they didn’t follow instructions, someone was watching closely however.

I guess it depends how closely some controllers are watching.

Compared to an arriving jet into Proserpine though, there’s no alert for the controller if they descended below the initial safe altitude of the rnp for example - requires monitoring of the mode C level to make sure they don’t descend below 5100 then safety alert if req’d
I’d assume Canberra is the same, unless the centre controller gets the altitude alerts based off the radar lowest safes the cb app guys use

[KAPAC]

Listened to an American like accent fly over IAF and not turn , descending into high terrain the tower controller started instructing a turn, then climbing turn ! English not controllers first language he run out of ways to say your going to die soon . Our line up clearance cancelled I watched on TCAS expecting him to disappear . Things went quiet and I wanted to scream at him on the radio but worried if I stepped on senior controller . Must have got pull up or woke up and put it into a climb with turn .

[Trevor the lover]

Just because YSCB is in the nation's capital doesn't mean it needs 24/7 ops. Movements should be/are what determine ATC requirements. What are Canberra's movements between 2300 and 0600? Should controllers sit in the TWR and APP for 2 or 3 movements in 7 hours? Aussie's flying into YSCB CTAF know what they are doing. Batik or any other operator need to know what they are doing by conducting their own risk management to keep their pax safe. And they haven't done that. Two guys arrive in a 737 and do not know how to get in there - that is not the fault of CTAF procedures. They were not educated on the arrival at this time, and people here are blaming CTAF procedures/lack of ATC.

Why should we, the taxpayer, pay for ATC services that are not required due lack of late night ops at YSCB? Yes, Aussies are on the flight, I get that. But CASA and the airline itself mnust ensure the safety of a new operator before clearing them in. Clearly this crew did not even read Jepps or the ERSA to realise the field is uncontrolled and therefore they need to determine a plan to land safely. Yes, ATC services would have negated all this, but we shouldn't have to pay because unqualified operators are dropping the ball.

[Lookleft]

Yes, ATC services would have negated all this, but we shouldn't have to pay because unqualified operators are dropping the ball.

Then why does Avalon have a tower? Why is Ballina getting a tower? It is very much about passenger safety and little to do with unqualified operators. Given what happened in 2004 do you consider Qantas to be an unqualified operator because it was a very similar incident. Tower not open, misreading a Jepp chart and a fatigued crew losing SA about the terrain around Canberra.

[43Inches]

Then why does Avalon have a tower? Why is Ballina getting a tower? It is very much about passenger safety and little to do with unqualified operators. Given what happened in 2004 do you consider Qantas to be an unqualified operator because it was a very similar incident. Tower not open, misreading a Jepp chart and a fatigued crew losing SA about the terrain around Canberra.

Well it does have a little to do with the mix of traffic. That is controlling the light aircraft movements around RPT traffic. Which didn't work at Albury anyway with TCAS being the only real difference.

The methods of control and procedures for all the cost will not protect anymore from rogue aircraft or operators than having a CTAF. After all a number of internationals managed to descend to unsafe lows into Melbourne, in full Radar, while in CTA, or rather exiting out of it. If light aircraft had been in the lane at the time it wpuld have been close or an RA, the answer, make the offending steps lower, so it doesn't happen again.

[framer]

Why should we, the taxpayer, pay for ATC services that are not required due lack of late night ops at YSCB?

​​​​​​​but we shouldn't have to pay because unqualified operators are dropping the ball.

Trevor the Lover ( best name on pprune I reckon) , both of the above quotes strike me as laden with frustration that is not necessarily the optimum mindset for running risk assessments. You say that the ATC services are not required due to the lack of late night ops…..what is the trigger? 50 pax between 2300 and 0600? 200 pax? 400 pax? I don’t think it is certain that the cost of having the service 24/7 is not a good deal for the nation. It wouldn’t surprise me if more than one overseas operator had chosen not to operate into the capital because their time zone meant a late arrival was the only cost effective option.
Another line of thinking is that one 737 into the hill south of Canberra would pay for a lifetime of late night controllers.

​​​​​​​After all a number of internationals managed to descend to unsafe lows into Melbourne, in full Radar, while in CTA,
Was ATC involved in preventing further descent or in rebuilding SA for the crews involved? I can think of two cases where they were off the top of my head.

Overseas Airlines operating services into our cities is good for the economy and therefore good for the tax payer. Is the cost of 24/7 ATC in Canberra worth it to encourage new services while keeping existing services safe?

[Lookleft]

No, if it was the mix of traffic then Airservices would not be bothering. It has to do with the number of passenger movements. That is the reason Ballina got a RFFS and the reason it is getting a tower. The incidents at Melbourne were mostly to do with cocked up approaches which is the pilots domain not ATC. This incident in Canberra and the QF one were primarily because ATC wasn't available. The Batik crew, and not without reasonable expectation, considered that they were operating in CTA all the way. The problem for the Batik crew was that they thought that they were operating into an environment at least equivalent from where they departed from. If you want a good example of how CTAF procedures can catch a crew out when they are expecting an ATC service look at MCY. The simple fact is that airspace management in this country is no longer fit for purpose.

[43Inches]

Was ATC involved in preventing further descent or in rebuilding SA for the crews involved? I can think of two cases where they were off the top of my head.


No doubt, but the fix was to lower the step in that area so that there was an extra margin around normal descent profiles, that is more the reason it hasn't happened again.

That is the reason Ballina got a RFFS and the reason it is getting a tower.

Hmm, I thought Ballina was getting towered because of the multiple incidents there. They were quite happy to leave it uncontrolled for the last 20 years with similar passenger numbers. As far as Airservices running it, there was talk of closing Albury due lack of staff let alone opening more country towers.

I still think though that internationals to a CTAF is a bad idea, no matter how much briefing there are still a lot of issues to contend with and this incident highlights just a few.

[Lookleft]

I still think though that internationals to a CTAF is a bad idea, no matter how much briefing there are still a lot of issues to contend with and this incident highlights just a few.

​​​​​​​I couldn't agree with you more.

[Capn Bloggs]

However the minimum holding altitude at MOMBI is 5600’, which is only written as a note on the DAP chart and without specify it’s a minimum altitude:
Clearly not a DAP user. ;)

@Trevor, rubbish. Probably the hardest place for international to get into. That southerly HP and ILS entry has always been a nightmare. Keep the tower and approach going! This is 2024, not 1955. Put a night-loading on the landing fees if you are so aggrieved by the cost to the rest of industry (taxpayers don't pay for towers). The taxpayers would actually benefit in that case.

If they miss the GS they'd probably be better off just redoing the STAR or the arc...

[ozbiggles]

‘Overseas Airlines operating services into our cities is good for the economy and therefore good for the tax payer. Is the cost of 24/7 ATC in Canberra worth it to encourage new services while keeping existing services safe?’

Lucky that Sydney is open 24/7 then to RPT…

Are some people really saying it’s worth operating a tower from midnight to 6am for 1 RPT aircraft when that aircraft could easily adjust its schedule to avoid those times? In fact this one has already done that, they were just far too early the night in question and didn’t adjust as obviously they didn’t understand. The money comes from somewhere, it’s called a business case.

[Lookleft]

The money comes from somewhere, it’s called a business case.

​​​​​​​I'm sure the relatives of any potential CFIT for the want of ATC will be comforted by that. What will probably happen is that, like a lot of international flights to Canberra, their business case won't stack up and they will stop going there.

[By George]

Looking in my logbook I have flown into 44 different cities around the world, not one them is ever Class G. Canberra is our capital city. It is all becoming embarrassing. Surely we can do better than this.

[framer]

Ozbiggles [QUOTE] ‘Overseas Airlines operating services into our cities is good for the economy and therefore good for the tax payer. Is the cost of 24/7 ATC in Canberra worth it to encourage new services while keeping existing services safe?’

Lucky that Sydney is open 24/7 then to RPT…
[/QUOTE.
Simply providing a different example of where we are inefficient and out of step doesn't answer the question. I gather from the rest of your post though that you don’t think it’s worth having a controller on overnight in Canberra.
Personally I think it is and would encourage more operations over time. I’d go so far as to say it would probably pay for itself over a decade and provide significant safety improvements from day one.

[missy]

Be interested to hear from the ATCs what the correct procedures should've been for this flight.

As referenced earlier, the BatikAir Indonesia flight was mega early. ARFF station opens at 5:40am, ATC TWR opens at 6:00am, CB APP opens at 6:00am. To be fair, ERSA does say "Class C airspace may be reactivated for RPT/VIP ACFT at any time".

ATC roster rules allow shifts to commence from 5am, so perhaps there is an opportunity to open earlier without incurring the costs of overnight shifts for both TWR and APP.

ATSB will no doubt examine whether any attempt was made to bring the TWR and APP staff in earlier for their shifts. Be interested to know the EUROCAT system configuration for Minimum Safe Altitude Warnings in this volume of airspace.

PS When they landed were there even ground crew to meet them? Immigration? Customs?

[Icarus2001]

It is all becoming embarrassing. Surely we can do better than this.

​​​​​​​This applies to so much of modern Australia.

[Icarus2001]

Be interested to hear from the ATCs what the correct procedures should've been for this flight.


The STAR leads seamlessly on to the ILS, the only tricky part is the 10,000 requirement at Lanyo which requires to be slowed in anticipation (or however you want to do it).

[ozbiggles]

Ozbiggles [QUOTE] ‘Overseas Airlines operating services into our cities is good for the economy and therefore good for the tax payer. Is the cost of 24/7 ATC in Canberra worth it to encourage new services while keeping existing services safe?’

Lucky that Sydney is open 24/7 then to RPT…
[/QUOTE.
Simply providing a different example of where we are inefficient and out of step doesn't answer the question. I gather from the rest of your post though that you don’t think it’s worth having a controller on overnight in Canberra.
Personally I think it is and would encourage more operations over time. I’d go so far as to say it would probably pay for itself over a decade and provide significant safety improvements from day one.

I agree 100% with you and everyone that says it would be safer to have ATC for all operations. I disagree it’s worth paying 2 controllers x 365 days to work the red eye for 1 RPT aircraft that could just be planned or required to operate within ‘normal’ work hours. ASA are way short on ATCs now, it would be a waste of limited manpower and 1 RPT aircraft isn’t going to cover that cost but the money has to come from somewhere. More RPT is not going to fly into CB just because ATC are there in the stupid hours. Indeed airline bean counters would probably prefer they were not and therefore don’t have to pay for the service.

One of the major holes in the cheese here was allowing them to operate into a CTAF in a RPT jet in a unfamiliar scenario for them. It is entertaining enough when you should know what you are doing. Canberra, Ballina and Proserpine CTAF ops, the clock is ticking….

In enough time Canberra will probably get a curfew anyway as it gets built in and stupid little dog legs in the RNP won’t solve that. Who wants to fly into CB at 5am on any morning anyway?

[missy]

The STAR leads seamlessly on to the ILS, the only tricky part is the 10,000 requirement at Lanyo which requires to be slowed in anticipation (or however you want to do it).
Yep, closed STAR, what level would've they have been assigned by Melbourne Centre? DESCEND VIA STAR TO ...

[sunnySA]

ATIS YSCB Z 241259
TOWER CLOSED UNTIL 2000 UTC.
CLASS CHARLIE AIRSPACE WITHIN 30 DME CANBERRA 8
THOUSAND 5 HUNDRED FEET AND BELOW REVERTS TO CLASS
GOLF, CTAF AND PAL 118.7.
AUTOMATIC WEATHER INFORMATION BROADCAST 116.7.
CANBERRA TERMINAL INFORMATION ZULU
Not sure that airspace "reverts". ATIS should probably say ... IS CLASS G AIRSPACE. (full stop).

I think there is a lot of assumed knowledge with the CBR ATIS.
Both TWR and APP are closed.
Hobart ATIS says TOWER CLOSED EXPECTED REOPENING TIME 1950 UTC. Expected covers if the Tower opens early, or is late opening.
Townsville ATIS says CTAF PROCEDURES APPLY FREQ... Clearly states CTAF procedures apply.
Hobart ATIS says AWIS FREQUENCY... AWIS is an approved abbreviation and should be used.

Not sure that airspace "reverts". ATIS should probably say ... IS CLASS G AIRSPACE. CTAF PROCEDURES APPLY, FREQ 118.7.
Unsure whether PAL needs to be mentioned as MATS says PAL frequency, is a discrete frequency is provided. Is it discrete when it's the same as the CTAF frequency?

[morno]

As sad as it is that our nations capital airport is not a 24hr manned airport, really, why would it need to be! Barely anyone from overseas wants to fly in there full stop, let alone in the middle of the night.

This Batik crew were just absoeffinglutely clueless that it speaks volumes of their training department. Also speaks volumes of their flight operations department to approve arriving outside tower hours if they don’t understand it.

Sunny, you could make the ATIS say it in Indonesian and I’d be very surprised if they even knew what Class G airspace is. My time flying around Asia, the locals knew the airspace as simply “controlled” or worst case “procedural”. If you told them Procedural was Class D they’d look at you like a kid learning the alphabet for the first time.

Our ATC system is not perfect, but in this instance I think the Batik crew were worse.

[nomess]

I was chatting to one of the Canadian Bonza pilots back in Jan, the first thing he mentioned when I asked how things are going, is wtf is with all this G airspace. They come from the land in which even largely GA airports have towers. He said regardless of the multi day classroom briefings they received in regards to the airspace, and the jumpseat, line training flights, it still takes considerable time to build up experience in such airspace.

I’ve noticed especially with cadet FOs, it’s great and all knowing the radio call procedures, they normally get those procedural things right on, but those without hands on ‘in the thick of it’ G experience really struggle when it comes to making decisions on situational awareness, chatting to GA aircraft, and just general decision making. I asked one cadet guy as we headed into a CTAF recently with multiple RA aircraft buzzing around, we have all these identified and potentially unidentified aircraft ahead, what are we going to do? He had no idea. We ended up holding. I’m not cadet bashing, I’m simply stating like Foreign crews, they have had little exposure to such ops.

You can train foreign crews on G procedures, but when things get a little hairy, which could be as little as one GA or RA aircraft in the area, things still fall apart. I noticed this with a Bonza C Jet back in Feb. They acknowledged the RA aircraft but didn’t do anything about it, communication between both was terrible, and they just continued on, I was waiting to read a report about that one, haven’t seen it yet, and obviously we won’t.

[roundhouse]

Next thing they will start flying in to Darwin at midnight with different combinations of the runway and taxiways being chopped up. Not to worry ‘Darwin information’ will clear them into the TRA and go back to sleep.

[Trevor the lover]

I HATE it when people disagree with my logical and sensible posts. :\

[KRUSTY 34]

It might be smart if they scheduled their operation more appropriately. You know, when the ATC is open if CTAF is giving them difficulties. Who decided on the schedule, the flight operations department or the beancounters?

Or route brief/train better. That might help. Especially if it is a new service that has some specific considerations to cover. Did they rush this service in and miss a comprehensive briefing package?

I'm not sure of their planned arrival time, but it's possible they may have arrived early, especially given the winds at this time of year? Still, no excuse for their obvious loss of SA, be it through lack of inflight planning or more systemic issues regarding port briefings/preparations.

And yes, the lack of 24 hour ATC at the Nation's Capital is a disgrace!

[BuzzBox]

Barely anyone from overseas wants to fly in there full stop, let alone in the middle of the night.

Let's be honest, barely anyone wants to go there at all...

[Hoosten]

Once again, Australia proves how pathetic it is. IFR aircraft in uncontrolled airspace is a joke. A pig wearing lipstick in a pseudo 1st world country.

At least E Base 700ft :cool:

[Lead Balloon]

Not sure that airspace "reverts". ATIS should probably say ... IS CLASS G AIRSPACE. (full stop).It is an interesting choice of word, connoting that G is the usual state of affairs. But my concise Oxford dictionary also defines the word to mean "fall back into wild state", which is an accurate usage in the context of airspace arrangements in a third world aviation nation like Australia.

[chimbu warrior]

Looks like Australia is not the only place where towers close and airlines continue to operate...........

https://www.wmtw.com/article/flight-takes-off-closed-runway-portland-jetport-warning-vehicle-on-runway/61452054

[MickG0105]

Looks like Australia is not the only place where towers close and airlines continue to operate...........

https://www.wmtw.com/article/flight-takes-off-closed-runway-portland-jetport-warning-vehicle-on-runway/61452054
Isn't that SWA4805 incident a case of a runway that was temporarily closed rather than the tower being closed. PDX operates 24 hours, and the reporting states that PDX ATC made repeated attempts to warn the Southwest flight about the runway closure.

Apologies, my mistake, that flight was out of PWM, not PDX.

[hoss58]

I don't know if this is a daily flight but even if it is could an option be to open the tower 1 hour earlier.

Surly this wouldn't break the bank and would offer the protection being spoken about in the above posts.

Yor could charge Batik for the 1 hours overtime.

Just a thought.

Regards Hoss.

[Hoosten]

There's precedent for opening the tower early and the airline paying for it. That's assuming you have the staff to open it.

[Don Diego]

As others have noted that star leads you nicely to the start of the ILS, it appears that the crew knew how to load the fmc (or else they would not have got airborne) so you can look for excuses for the crew but there are none. Crew error, plain as that.

[Icarus2001]

There's precedent for opening the tower early and the airline paying for it. That's assuming you have the staff to open it.

I think there is merit in that. However, loading a STAR and an approach in the FMS-FMC is not helped one little bit by having a human on the radio. We are mitigating against their inability to navigate the aircraft safely given all the tools at their disposal. So when they stuffed it up a third party will tell them what is a safe procedure to use or what is a safe altitude to hold at. Is that what we have come to?

[Spudly]

I was chatting to one of the Canadian Bonza pilots back in Jan, the first thing he mentioned when I asked how things are going, is wtf is with all this G airspace. They come from the land in which even largely GA airports have towers. He said regardless of the multi day classroom briefings they received in regards to the airspace, and the jumpseat, line training flights, it still takes considerable time to build up experience in such airspace.

I’ve noticed especially with cadet FOs, it’s great and all knowing the radio call procedures, they normally get those procedural things right on, but those without hands on ‘in the thick of it’ G experience really struggle when it comes to making decisions on situational awareness, chatting to GA aircraft, and just general decision making. I asked one cadet guy as we headed into a CTAF recently with multiple RA aircraft buzzing around, we have all these identified and potentially unidentified aircraft ahead, what are we going to do? He had no idea. We ended up holding. I’m not cadet bashing, I’m simply stating like Foreign crews, they have had little exposure to such ops.

You can train foreign crews on G procedures, but when things get a little hairy, which could be as little as one GA or RA aircraft in the area, things still fall apart. I noticed this with a Bonza C Jet back in Feb. They acknowledged the RA aircraft but didn’t do anything about it, communication between both was terrible, and they just continued on, I was waiting to read a report about that one, haven’t seen it yet, and obviously we won’t.

I’ve noticed this more and more lately with some Dash8 but mainly Saab ops into busy CTAFs think they’re still in a C172. You have airliners orbiting in weird places and insisting on straight in approaches to opposite runways to the rest of the traffic because “it’s hard to spot all the traffic if we join downwind”.

[witwiw]

[QUOTE] an option be to open the tower 1 hour earlier.[QUOTE]

Wouldn’t be necessary if they even remotely managed to stick to their schedule of a 7am arrival.

How on earth do you pick up 1 hour plus on a flight of less than 7 hours????? Lesser headwinds/stronger tailwinds could account for an amount of a time reduction maybe but ……….

You're saying the tower should open earlier to allow for the total mismanagement of flight operations.

[nomess]

I see the issue. They seem to allow 6hrs 50mins for the Canberra flight. But they then allow 5hrs 50mins for the Sydney flight. I get that some will build DPS Departure delays into the schedule, but this is grossly inflated. Having a look it appears they have recently again come very close to arriving in G. If they get away on time, then they will most certainly be arriving in G.

Why do I sense this isn’t going to be the first hiccup. You can’t say Flight Ops wasn’t warned. Lion Group have a pretty ordinary past, I hope CASA is keeping a close eye on things, confidence isn’t held by many Pilots on here.

[neville_nobody]

I hope CASA is keeping a close eye on things


CASA don’t have the intestinal fortitude to shut down a foreign carrier. Don’t expect them to say anything because they are to scared of the political ramifications.