USA vs Australia QOL/compensation

[kwyle09]

Many Aussies went over to the USA in the last few years, I wanted to see if we could compare notes on the ‘state of the airlines’ so the speak, with comparisons between QOL, compensation, and contract rules. Overall it feels like the US provides more days off and similar or greater compensation, but I would like to know if there is more to it. Are contract negotiations back home in Aus leaning toward what exists in the US or is it just wishful thinking? Things like average days off per month, ability to drop/swap/trade, upgrade times etc…

[cxflog]

Happy to give my opinion!

I work for the bright yellow carrier who was hiring E3’s up until about 6 months ago. Almost 2 years on property and single fleet operations (A320/321).

Last 3 months averaged 15-16 days off a month.
80-85 hrs a month credit for 65-70 block. Mostly 3 day trips with a four or two day depending on what I swap and drop. Flexibility is fantastic. Our premium flying has dried up which used to be pretty available and could easily net you another 40 hours for the month.
Most days are one or two legs. Never done three or more in a day, even on some of the garbage trips when I was on reserve.

Last months pay was $12300USD, plus company 401k contribution of 16% which equals an additional ~$2000USD. Per diem I don’t count as it’s spent on overnights anyway.

Not sure how that shapes up locally as I’ve been out of Aus flying for a long while, but have my app in for Q and Jetstar just in case. Happy to answer questions.

[brokenagain]

​​​​​​but have my app in for Q and Jetstar just in case.​

Based on the figure you provided, I wouldn’t even bother with Jetstar. You’ll be taking quite a hefty pay cut.

[havoste]

The flexibility is really excellent. At the yellow ULCC as well and my figures/days off reflect cxflog's but I know a couple guys busting their ass hustling 2nd year exceeding well over 200k USD plus 16% 401k (super). While others drop trips and spend over half their month off/back in Aus. Unfortunately Captain upgrades are not on the horizon anytime soon and there's also guys staring at perpetual reserve and no movement for the near future.

[btrdux]

Happy to give my opinion!

I work for the bright yellow carrier who was hiring E3’s up until about 6 months ago. Almost 2 years on property and single fleet operations (A320/321).

Last 3 months averaged 15-16 days off a month.
80-85 hrs a month credit for 65-70 block. Mostly 3 day trips with a four or two day depending on what I swap and drop. Flexibility is fantastic. Our premium flying has dried up which used to be pretty available and could easily net you another 40 hours for the month.
Most days are one or two legs. Never done three or more in a day, even on some of the garbage trips when I was on reserve.

Last months pay was $12300USD, plus company 401k contribution of 16% which equals an additional ~$2000USD. Per diem I don’t count as it’s spent on overnights anyway.

Not sure how that shapes up locally as I’ve been out of Aus flying for a long while, but have my app in for Q and Jetstar just in case. Happy to answer questions.

Why though? Clearly you are happy where you are and making more money (certainly compared to JQ)

[havoste]

Why though? Clearly you are happy where you are and making more money (certainly compared to JQ)

Because the company is not making money post-pandemic, facing Pratt and Whitney neo engine issues grounding 70 planes in 2025 and facing potential bankrupcy. I would like to spend a good chunk if not the rest of my career here but am also thinking JQ/VA/QF as a backup option. Would certainly not voluntarily return however.

[cxflog]

Because the company is not making money post-pandemic, facing Pratt and Whitney neo engine issues grounding 70 planes in 2025 and facing potential bankrupcy. I would like to spend a good chunk if not the rest of my career here but am also thinking JQ/VA/QF as a backup option. Would certainly not voluntarily return however.
My thoughts exactly! Doesn’t hurt to have contingencies.

[umop apisdn]

United FO. 737. Mostly out and back trips. Home with my kid most nights. I go to work about 10 times a month, more if I am hustling. Can easily stack my stuff together, month over month can yield close to 30 days off with no vacation. Averaging 15-22k per month, depending on the hustle.

We (pilots in the US) probably have one of the most powerful unions in the world. I don't think it's even remotely comparable to Australian T&Cs. Also we have scope which limits the amount of flying and aircraft size that the company is allowed to farm out. We will never see 320's, 220's, 717's or whatever else operating under another certificate.

[Kenny]

I left Virgin after 5 years back in 2015, as a Lvl 3 737 FO on about AU$150k. I’ve now been at the US major with a big globe on its tail for 9 years. As a 777 Instructor, my monthly pay is $33k, for which I have 16 days off a month and occasionally go flying to meet the 86 hours I’m contractually expected to fly each year.

If I went back to the line as a 756 CA, I’d be on reserve and make about US$27k a month, for a guarantee of 73 hours. Anything above that would at $370 something an hour , which is unlikely as most of my peers are only flying one trip a month on RSV.

The big difference for me, between the US and Oz is the Super/401k. After 9 years my 401k is now sitting at a figure that contains 6 zeros. I’d never have been able to achieve that in Oz.

Of course, it’s the US and any number of potential conflicts could make it all go poof. So I’m enjoying it while I can and saving as much as I can.

[kwyle09]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm hoping that the visa continues, having to return home to Aus knowing how great it can be over here would be frustrating to say the least.

[DUXNUTZ]

The money is one thing in the US, but the rigs and extra bits the contracts have are worth pointing out in themselves. At Virgin we had rotating PBS and your only mechanism for extra pay was working a day off. My mob like others, you can pick up some trips for 150% pay, have trips bought off you and then go out and pick up another over the top, not to mention use your sick leave very freely.

The working environment is also vastly different, a lot more laid back and way less punitive. I recall a guy in Sydney at my last employer giving people a hard time about wearing their hat. I still wear mine out of ptsd but most don’t care.

16% 401k (will go up) deposit each month on earnings from company and with personal contributions you’re ending up putting in close to 70k/yr into your retirement without a lot of stress.

I’m an 8th yr widebody FO/Instructor Pilot at a legacy outside the top 4; high 20s per month and on a flying month get to spend at least 4-5 days back in Oz on a layover and keep touch with the place.

I think the guys that do 15 on and 15 off schedules here will find that hard to do long term. I’d love to live in Oz and do this job (almost doable) but I’m taking an upgrade in the next few months.

[rudestuff]

If I went back to the line as a 756 CA Bloody hell how long is that thing!?! I thought the -300 was long enough 🤔

[krismiler]

The US sounds like the last few years of Ansett, with senior Captains on the Jumbo pulling in AU$250 000 a year (1980s money) and bidding reserve the whole time with one trip a month to stay current.

As stated earlier, it’s the unions that are to thank for the conditions American pilots enjoy, until recently there has been a plentiful supply of pilots on offer from the large military and GA sectors but the airlines weren’t able to use it to drive the T&Cs down.

Senior F/Os on wide bodies have it so good that many of them are in no hurry to upgrade if it means going onto a smaller type, they’d rather stay where they are until they have the seniority to switch seats on the same aircraft.

It's a pity our pay hasn’t gone up at the same rate as the senior executives.

[Kenny]

The US sounds like the last few years of Ansett, with senior Captains on the Jumbo pulling in AU$250 000 a year (1980s money) and bidding reserve the whole time with one trip a month to stay current.

As stated earlier, it’s the unions that are to thank for the conditions American pilots enjoy, until recently there has been a plentiful supply of pilots on offer from the large military and GA sectors but the airlines weren’t able to use it to drive the T&Cs down.

Senior F/Os on wide bodies have it so good that many of them are in no hurry to upgrade if it means going onto a smaller type, they’d rather stay where they are until they have the seniority to switch seats on the same aircraft.

It's a pity our pay hasn’t gone up at the same rate as the senior executives.

Purely my own personal opinion and it’s been almost 10 years since I last worked in Oz but my feeling is that Australian pilots will never see the pay that they’re worth, much less the pay we’re seeing in the US. There was absolutely no unity, no sticking together. It was every man or woman for themselves and certainly no will to come together and fight as a single group for better conditions. As well as far too much long term PTSD from failed carriers of years past. I hope I’m grossly wrong. I guess we’ll see.

[cxflog]

Purely my own personal opinion and it’s been almost 10 years since I last worked in Oz but my feeling is that Australian pilots will never see the pay that they’re worth, much less the pay we’re seeing in the US. There was absolutely no unity, no sticking together. It was every man or woman for themselves and certainly no will to come together and fight as a single group for better conditions. As well as far too much long term PTSD from failed carriers of years past. I hope I’m grossly wrong. I guess we’ll see.
I feel very much the same, was hoping with the Qantas SH contract up for negotiation they’d see some big gains to follow in the US Legacy’s footsteps, but seems to be falling well short based on the other thread on this board.

It is a little sad when senior widebody FO’s can pull in close to USD$400k a year working 15 days a month (anecdotal from my DAL friend), while legacy captains in Aus don’t get close to that figure. Maybe it was wishful thinking? Rising tide lifts all boats etc. Here’s to hoping!

[havick]

Just for a different data point on the corporate side of things;

currently flying a GVII-600 as captain on a two week on two week off schedule for a part 135 outfit. Home based (live anywhere - continental US) and they positive space commute you.

Base pay circa $350k usd/year as a line pilot, plus 401k and other benefits. Workover days circa $4200/usd a day if you want to work extra. There’s other opportunities to earn more if you wan to take a check and training role etc.

Obviously not a direct comparison, but there are other options in the US if you don’t want to do the airline or freight thing.

[umop apisdn]

Bloody hell how long is that thing!?! I thought the -300 was long enough 🤔
It's what we call the 757 and 767 together, as the pilots on it fly both types, so a bit confusing. There is no 757-600.

[bafanguy]

Obviously not a direct comparison, but there are other options in the US if you don’t want to do the airline or freight thing.

havick,

I hear occasional reference to the type of corporate job you mention but get the impression it's a rarified atmosphere available to a very select few.

It almost seems to be a secret society...small world. But a very interesting segment of the av world.

I know a guy who flew air carrier airplanes for some very prominent people. Can't offer details but it was fascinating compared to the garden-variety airline job.

[havick]

havick,

I hear occasional reference to the type of corporate job you mention but get the impression it's a rarified atmosphere available to a very select few.

It almost seems to be a secret society...small world. But a very interesting segment of the av world.

I know a guy who flew air carrier airplanes for some very prominent people. Can't offer details but it was fascinating compared to the garden-variety airline job.

This is a pure part 135 company.

They’re actually about to start an E3 avenue onto the Phenom 300 fleet to start with the obvious progression opportunities.

[Gnadenburg]

The US sounds like the last few years of Ansett, with senior Captains on the Jumbo pulling in AU$250 000 a year (1980s money) and bidding reserve the whole time with one trip a month to stay current.

As stated earlier, it’s the unions that are to thank for the conditions American pilots enjoy, until recently there has been a plentiful supply of pilots on offer from the large military and GA sectors but the airlines weren’t able to use it to drive the T&Cs down.

It's a pity our pay hasn’t gone up at the same rate as the senior executives.

Ansett went bust in 01 so those figures 01 money. I don’t believe reserve was done in those days? Not domestically anyways.

Let’s not forget, a fortunate for Virgin, sliding doors moment eventuated and they replaced AN. Virgin pilots paid for endorsements and their training captains paid what AN FO’s were. There is huge responsibility for the rot that followed right here!

[cxflog]

This is a pure part 135 company.

They’re actually about to start an E3 avenue onto the Phenom 300 fleet to start with the obvious progression opportunities.
As long as it’s not connected to the Red Wing Aviation/XOJet/Vista company it sounds like an amazing gig!

I feel like we should do yearly/semi-yearly Aus expat meetups so I can garner some more local beer recommendations lol

[havick]

As long as it’s not connected to the Red Wing Aviation/XOJet/Vista company it sounds like an amazing gig!

I feel like we should do yearly/semi-yearly Aus expat meetups so I can garner some more local beer recommendations lol

It’s not the company you mentioned. Can’t say too much right now, but will post details once they start advertising on their website and pilots can apply directly as to avoid me being any sort of middle man at all.

[bafanguy]

They’re actually about to start an E3 avenue onto the Phenom 300 fleet to start with the obvious progression opportunities.

havick,

Interesting. Why E3s for this type of operation ? With the pay you mention, they can't possibly be having trouble recruiting US citizens...right ?

The numbers required are tens not thousands.

[krismiler]

Let’s not forget, a fortunate for Virgin, sliding doors moment eventuated and they replaced AN. Virgin pilots paid for endorsements and their training captains paid what AN FO’s were. There is huge responsibility for the rot that followed right here!

I remember reading about an RAAF B707 Captain who joined Ansett Air Freight as a copilot on the same type and his pay doubled. Back in the 1970s/1980s a major pay jump wasn’t unusual if you made it into a legacy airline. Cathy Pacific took on B737 Captains as F/Os on their wide body fleets with a similar doubling of pay.

IIRC, paying for your own type rating started with SouthWest Airlines in the US however they were unionised and pilots had decent terms and conditions. They’ve recently reached a preliminary agreement giving them a substantial pay rise.

Unfortunately the effects of 1989 still linger in Australian aviation, no one would be complaining if pilot pay had kept up with executive renumeration packages.