Recognition of UK Military qualifications

[BEagle]

The UK PM has said that, if he is returned to power, a new Veterans Bill will ensure military qualifications have an equal standing with civilian qualifications in law for the first time.

Including military pilot qualifications?

https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sunak-pledges-to-cut-price-of-railcard-in-pitch-to-veterans-on-d-day-anniversary-13148507

[Ninthace]

I think most Veterans would prefer access to an NHS dentist or being able to get a GP appointment rather than £9 knocked off the price of a rail card.

[ASRAAMTOO]

A great idea...! Shame they did not manage it during the last 14 years they were in government really. Wonder how long it would take though, Veterans Cards only took 5 + after the announcement to arrive and even then they are not actually valid forms of ID for aanything useful like accessing a military base or voting!

[Video Mixdown]

A great idea...! Shame they did not manage it during the last 14 years they were in government really. Wonder how long it would take though, Veterans Cards only took 5 + after the announcement to arrive and even then they are not actually valid forms of ID for aanything useful like accessing a military base or voting!
Why would you want to access a military base?

[beardy]

The PM has said that, if he is returned to power, a new Veterans Bill will ensure military qualifications have an equal standing with civilian qualifications in law for the first time.

Including military pilot qualifications?

https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sunak-pledges-to-cut-price-of-railcard-in-pitch-to-veterans-on-d-day-anniversary-13148507
Sure, why not? Type rating, probably not, unless there is a civilian equivalent. Would it work the other way round with a civilian qualification being accepted by the military?

[sharpend]

We are in election chaos when each party will offer the world, then renege (quote no money in the till). Of course the Tories will offer fee gold bars as they will not have to honour that promise. In their situation, they can offer anything.

[tucumseh]

How much does the admin cost to reduce the cost of a railcard by £9? Flash your credentials, get it free. Easy.

[MPN11]

I don't see a Mil ATCO licence reading across to Civ ATC.

Might work for an HGV driver, though.

[Laarbruch72]

The UK military has always been poor at providing recognisable qualifications for those experiences you've gained and even the military courses you did (including those directly equivalent to a civilian one). At least you get given some fairly generous learning credits during resettlement to get some way to proper certification that's recognised by employers, although it doesn't always fully cover what you've dealt with.

For what it's worth I don't believe any "pledges" around this time. Pledges made during an election are entirely empty, since nobody is held to them any more, especially in the last decade, (the era of "post truth").

"50 new hospitals" was the last big promise wasn't it? I bet those that voted for that weren't aware that a lick of paint in an existing and delapidated hospital would count as a "new hospital".

[57mm]

Will my ISS count?

[minigundiplomat]

I can just see the former infantryman in the job centre....

'Qualifications?'

'Flatpacker of the Kings adversaries Level 4'

[Video Mixdown]

There was an RSM on my resettlement course. When asked what his skills were he replied “shouting”.

[ethereal entity]

Unfortunately this thread is moot. The Tories are going to be utterly annihilated in a few weeks. Anything they say or promise is absolutely meaningless.

[Mogwi]

There used to be an Air Support Command Exemption, which allowed the issue of an ATPL as long as you did a flight test on a civvy type and passed Aviation Law. That was lost some time ago though, but not before It got me my (never used) ATPL(H) in 1973 for the cost of a bottle of decent malt for Taff W.

Mog

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

When I left in 1990 my military flying hours were accepted by the CAA and all I had to do was an exam "crammer" course at the City of London Poly. That was my resettlement course (i.e. no charge to me), and I was accommodated at Regents Park barracks.

NEO

[Mogwi]

There also used to be a formula for increasing military hours to reflect taxi-time. Not much good aboard a carrier though!

Mog

[212man]

When I left in 1990 my military flying hours were accepted by the CAA and all I had to do was an exam "crammer" course at the City of London Poly. That was my resettlement course (i.e. no charge to me), and I was accommodated at Regents Park barracks.

NEO
And then you pitched up in Aberdeen for a Super Puma conversion, I recall!

[PlasticCabDriver]

When I left in 1990 my military flying hours were accepted by the CAA and all I had to do was an exam "crammer" course at the City of London Poly. That was my resettlement course (i.e. no charge to me), and I was accommodated at Regents Park barracks.

NEO

Not far off the same mid-2000’s. In date QHI check on the Puma (still on civvy register then), some juggling of P1/P2 hours to meet CAA requirements, Air Law, Op Procedures and the bridging exam (FW of course, no RW bridging exam available so fully up to speed on North Atlantic tracks and 737 fire extinguishers…), Class 1 medical from Dougie Wyper in the Med Centre at Benson (no payment permitted, so a modest contribution to Tea Bar funds instead). ATPL(H) followed on completion of L2 type rating. Bob’s your uncle.

[ShyTorque]

Not far off the same mid-2000’s. In date QHI check on the Puma (still on civvy register then), some juggling of P1/P2 hours to meet CAA requirements, Air Law, Op Procedures and the bridging exam (FW of course, no RW bridging exam available so fully up to speed on North Atlantic tracks and 737 fire extinguishers…), Class 1 medical from Dougie Wyper in the Med Centre at Benson (no payment permitted, so a modest contribution to Tea Bar funds instead). ATPL(H) followed on completion of L2 type rating. Bob’s your uncle.

Presumably that was for the HC2?

Having managed to find a “gold dust” technical manual and having crammed up for the Puma tech exam (HC1 back then) I was told just before my attempt that the type (equivalent to J variant) was no longer on the U.K. register.

[Stuck On The Ground]

There also used to be a formula for increasing military hours to reflect taxi-time. Not much good aboard a carrier though!

Mog

Could you not count the time the boat was chugging along at 25kt while you crewed in as taxi time?

[D120A]

There used to be an Air Support Command Exemption, which allowed the issue of an ATPL as long as you did a flight test on a civvy type and passed Aviation Law. That was lost some time ago though, but not before It got me my (never used) ATPL(H) in 1973 for the cost of a bottle of decent malt for Taff W.

Mog

I remember that, and the story of a VC-10 pilot phoning the CAA to ask for his flight test (in a Cessna 150), set for the following week, to be postponed. The lady on the phone said this was very inconvenient and demanded to know the reason.

"I am flying the Queen to Canada" he replied...

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

I don't see a Mil ATCO licence reading across to Civ ATC.

Might work for an HGV driver, though.
Beat me to it!

[charliegolf]

In my day, mil HGV licences were civilian licences. Mine came to Germany all the way from Swansea!

CG

[Lomon]

In my day, mil HGV licences were civilian licences. Mine came to Germany all the way from Swansea!

CG
A driving licence is a driving licence - that hasn't changed. The mil used to be allowed to teach people to drive things like HGVs without actually doing a formal test or awarding the licence categories (eg for things like the runway caravan) but that was phased out about 25 years ago.

Military doctors and nurses are "real" doctors and nurses - their quals are already recognised.

The ones that always weren't were pilot and ATC, probably to stop the immediate exodus of military personnel to the civilian sector. Whilst there have always been financial incentives for pilots to stay in the service the same isn't true for controllers.

Very often (after return of service) the thing that stopped military controllers moving to NATS (and doubling their salaries) was having to undertake the entire 12-18month long NATS controllers course on minimum wage.

The UK military already has retention problems - whilst making military qualifications comparable to the civilian equivalent might improve the career transition to civilian, I can see it causing a huge retention headache when people with difficult to acquire skills are poached by the civilian sector.

[Ninthace]

I seemed to acquire various sets of civilian recognised acronyms, mostly beginning with an M, behind my name by virtue of my various postings and specialisations. They have of course all lapsed since I retired and stopped paying my subs.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Presumably that was for the HC2?

Having managed to find a “gold dust” technical manual and having crammed up for the Puma tech exam (HC1 back then) I was told just before my attempt that the type (equivalent to J variant) was no longer on the U.K. register.

No, the HC1! Never flew the Mk 2. It was on my licence as 330F*. Regrettably I couldn’t do the IR on it as well, (ISTR because it had only one radio and no ADF?), so had to do that on a 135.

* IIRC the RAF Pumas were basically 330B, but with enough mods and bits of RAF specific kit to make it a new variant, which was the 330F?

[jayteeto]

There were some big gaps between civil and military aviation training. Mainly the theory side. I had to do a lot of study to gain my 2 CPLs

[deltahotel]

Military exemptions are done at the national level, so for the UK the CAA. I guess to get any it would be up to RAF/FAA/AAC to persuade the CAA that their training clears the CAA bar - is there anyone with the energy to do this? Is there any benefit to the CAA to do this?

There are some big gaps in theory (and yes there's a lot of work to pass these exams) but actually there aren't when it comes down to doing the job. The only areas where my knowledge base were positively enhanced were Met theory & practical and knowing that there's a height above which an obstacle needs a red light and another height above which it needs a white one. The most frustrating thing I found while doing my exams was thinking "I'm never ever going to need to know about A,B,C coefficients or how to do a transferred position line fix from an NDB in Iceland". Exams now are very much question bank based.

Are there any exemptions now apart from the hours requirements? (I'm assuming here that a leaving pilot will have the required mix of hours). Way back I got exemption from MCC due C130 time and a freebie RT licence. UPRT exemption? We've recently picked up some ex Mil so maybe I'll ask them what their experiences were (VC10, C17, C130, whatever that Waddo King Air's called)

While I was in the RAF (77-2000) we probably went round this buoy a few times - when I was doing licences it was 'do all the exams time'. It's a massive balls ache but just needs some grit and focus and some clever manipulation of annual training allowance (does that still exist?) and resettlement to soften the blows.

Rgds

dh

[NutLoose]

Engineering wise, you would need to drastically alter the pay scale if you gave everyone licences to be comparable with the outside world, to at least a Sqn Leaders / Wing Commanders pay scale and in some cases a Group Captains.

You would then see your retention plunge as a mass exodus took place, such is the shortage of Engineers, we need two licenced Engineers where I work and cannot get hold of them.

The RAF I believe has made some moves to be comparable, dual trades etc.
Ciivilian wise I cover Engines, Airframes, Electrics, Compasses and basic Avionics. ( anything not requiring test sets ) plus C certifying to release aircraft to service and form 4 that allows me to renew the Aircraft’s Certificate of Airworthiness by inspecting and issuing the ARC, though that tends to be held by only one in a Company.

I think legislation wise the MAA are getting to be on par with the equivalent Civilian standards though there would need to be some cross training..

​​​​​…

[Lima Juliet]

Military exemptions are done at the national level, so for the UK the CAA. I guess to get any it would be up to RAF/FAA/AAC to persuade the CAA that their training clears the CAA bar - is there anyone with the energy to do this? Is there any benefit to the CAA to do this?

There are some big gaps in theory (and yes there's a lot of work to pass these exams) but actually there aren't when it comes down to doing the job. The only areas where my knowledge base were positively enhanced were Met theory & practical and knowing that there's a height above which an obstacle needs a red light and another height above which it needs a white one. The most frustrating thing I found while doing my exams was thinking "I'm never ever going to need to know about A,B,C coefficients or how to do a transferred position line fix from an NDB in Iceland". Exams now are very much question bank based.

Are there any exemptions now apart from the hours requirements? (I'm assuming here that a leaving pilot will have the required mix of hours). Way back I got exemption from MCC due C130 time and a freebie RT licence. UPRT exemption? We've recently picked up some ex Mil so maybe I'll ask them what their experiences were (VC10, C17, C130, whatever that Waddo King Air's called)

While I was in the RAF (77-2000) we probably went round this buoy a few times - when I was doing licences it was 'do all the exams time'. It's a massive balls ache but just needs some grit and focus and some clever manipulation of annual training allowance (does that still exist?) and resettlement to soften the blows.

Rgds

dh

Correct, you could only really give partial credits for the commercial exams. Military Aircrew don’t really know the Chicago Convention, UK Air Nav Order, the commercial Air OPS stuff, etc… However, in Met, Navigation, RT and Human Factors there are distinct common areas of knowledge. So I think a partial accreditation is the best we can hope for with respect to the 14 ATPL(A) exams. There are credits for flying hours in CAP2254 and also bridging packages from places like Bristol Groundschool.

I always turn it on its head in my mind. Would we allow a B737 Pilot come and jump in a Typhoon, or even a Rivet Joint, without any training? Of course not, so why would there be a full credit the other way?

There is one shining hope for the future when the UKMFTS contract is re-let in 2032/33. If the next provider could use PPL/CPL as a ‘backbone’ to military training, then the military ‘bolt ons’ required are taught in advanced training, then there might be some synergies to be enjoyed and benefitted from by both the Service and the individual. Of course, we’ll probably buy the cheapest system and then moan when it barely covers what we want - like everything in the world, you get what you pay for!

[Diff Tail Shim]

My military aircraft engineering courses and experience had only time restrictions removed from 5 to 1 year. Had to do.the entire EASA module package of 17 exams for B1.1.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Engineering wise, you would need to drastically alter the pay scale if you gave everyone licences to be comparable with the outside world, to at least a Sqn Leaders / Wing Commanders pay scale and in some cases a Group Captains.

You would then see your retention plunge as a mass exodus took place, such is the shortage of Engineers, we need two licenced Engineers where I work and cannot get hold of them.

The RAF I believe has made some moves to be comparable, dual trades etc.
Ciivilian wise I cover Engines, Airframes, Electrics, Compasses and basic Avionics. ( anything not requiring test sets ) plus C certifying to release aircraft to service and form 4 that allows me to renew the Aircraft’s Certificate of Airworthiness by inspecting and issuing the ARC, though that tends to be held by only one in a Company.

I think legislation wise the MAA are getting to be on par with the equivalent Civilian standards though there would need to be some cross training..

​​​​​…
No they are not. The training is nowhere up to.a standard to jump across now like in you day of BCAR section L. I suspect you cannot get engineers as your company will not pay the market rate. It is 70K for line engineers even for pikey companies like the regionals now. My pay is up to 75K in 3 months as well for a one type currency B1 ticket. The boys on Shadow had to go out to industry to be licenced and rated.

[ShyTorque]

No, the HC1! Never flew the Mk 2. It was on my licence as 330F*. Regrettably I couldn’t do the IR on it as well, (ISTR because it had only one radio and no ADF?), so had to do that on a 135.

* IIRC the RAF Pumas were basically 330B, but with enough mods and bits of RAF specific kit to make it a new variant, which was the 330F?

In which case, I was robbed! Eventually managed to gain my CAA licence in 1992.

Even more annoying was that I planned to take my FW licence immediately after the rotary one and the barstewards made me pay for both exam groups again in their entirety. When I enquired if I could take all the required theoretical exams for both licences in the first place by telephone (to save me paying twice) I was given a direct verbal threat that if I chose to take it further they could make it “even more difficult” for me.

It was then that I realised that no one mediates the CAA. If you choose to disagree with them they act as judge, jury and executioner.

[NutLoose]

No they are not. The training is nowhere up to.a standard to jump across now like in you day of BCAR section L. I suspect you cannot get engineers as your company will not pay the market rate. It is 70K for line engineers even for pikey companies like the regionals now. My pay is up to 75K in 3 months as well for a one type currency B1 ticket. The boys on Shadow had to go out to industry to be licenced and rated.

They are paying the going rate.

[Whenurhappy]

I think most Veterans would prefer access to an NHS dentist or being able to get a GP appointment rather than £9 knocked off the price of a rail card.

One advantage of being medically discharged is free prescriptions. Oh, and a free 24/7 Oyster card (ie free travel across London). Oh, and no tax on my Service Invalidity Pension and War Disability Payments. And fast track NHS access.

So, as a veteran, I'm OK, Jack.

[BEagle]

The UK military already has retention problems - whilst making military qualifications comparable to the civilian equivalent might improve the career transition to civilian, I can see it causing a huge retention headache when people with difficult to acquire skills are poached by the civilian sector.

In more enlightened times, the CAA / MoD working group evolved the '2000 hr TT of which 1500 PIC' accreditation. The highly valued accreditation had to be earned by time served to reach the target figure, hence it was a retention scheme. Pilots would be roughly in their mid 30s by the time they'd achieved the target.

For a typical ME pilot, the only exam required was Air Law as it was recognised that all other relevant knowledge would have been gained through experience. A Class 1 medical (which in those days could be obtained through the RAF provided that the doc had the relevant approval) was required and you had to take a CAA IRE on an SCT trip to observe the IR elements. Then fill out the paperwork, pay the money and wait for the little green book to arrive.

In my case, having already passed Air Law for my Restricted BCPL/FI, I didn't need to take ANY ATPL exams!

Unfortunately with the arrival of Part-FCL, the RAF shot itself in the foot by failing to continue the scheme. The CAA would have been happy to endorse anything the MoD proposed, but all that was agreed was a woeful shadow of the previous scheme. So there was no point in waiting to gain 2000TT and retention suffered accordingly.....

[Ninthace]

One advantage of being medically discharged is free prescriptions. Oh, and a free 24/7 Oyster card (ie free travel across London). Oh, and no tax on my Service Invalidity Pension and War Disability Payments. And fast track NHS access.

So, as a veteran, I'm OK, Jack.
Does it get you up the queue to see your GP or entitle you to an NHS dentist?

[Asturias56]

Philosophically I've always had an issue with paying Govt employees (the military, civil servants etc) less than the outside world. The only reason I can think of is "because we can" - and then everyone moans about difficulties of retention, the lack of initiative, the CMA attitudes etc

Oh - we'd actually have to pay more tax............................

[PlasticCabDriver]

In more enlightened times, the CAA / MoD working group evolved the '2000 hr TT of which 1500 PIC' accreditation. The highly valued accreditation had to be earned by time served to reach the target figure, hence it was a retention scheme. Pilots would be roughly in their mid 30s by the time they'd achieved the target.

For a typical ME pilot, the only exam required was Air Law as it was recognised that all other relevant knowledge would have been gained through experience. A Class 1 medical (which in those days could be obtained through the RAF provided that the doc had the relevant approval) was required and you had to take a CAA IRE on an SCT trip to observe the IR elements. Then fill out the paperwork, pay the money and wait for the little green book to arrive.

In my case, having already passed Air Law for my Restricted BCPL/FI, I didn't need to take ANY ATPL exams!

Unfortunately with the arrival of Part-FCL, the RAF shot itself in the foot by failing to continue the scheme. The CAA would have been happy to endorse anything the MoD proposed, but all that was agreed was a woeful shadow of the previous scheme. So there was no point in waiting to gain 2000TT and retention suffered accordingly.....

Exactly the scheme I did it under as described in #18. Op procedures and bridging exam as well for the RW pukes (albeit the FW version, no RW exam available).

I would also describe it as retention positive. If there’s a basically free licence at the end I’ll stay, if I have to do everything anyway I may as well go now.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Does it get you up the queue to see your GP or entitle you to an NHS dentist?

My situation is almost identical to Whenurhappy and I've been on the waiting list to see my GP for three weeks.

NEO

[Ninthace]

Flash your Veteran’s Card, see what it gets you!

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

I registered when the much vaunted Veterans Charter came out and the practice put up a poster advertising as conforming to it. They ticked a box on my file to show that I'm ex military. No change :(

NEO

[NutLoose]

One advantage of being medically discharged is free prescriptions. Oh, and a free 24/7 Oyster card (ie free travel across London). Oh, and no tax on my Service Invalidity Pension and War Disability Payments. And fast track NHS access.

So, as a veteran, I'm OK, Jack.

all free prescriptions saves you is about £100 a year give or take.

[Biggus]

Prescriptions are free in England from the age of 60 - which I believe is now the upper age limit for RAF Officers.

[Fly3]

Lomon.
The ones that always weren't were pilot and ATC, probably to stop the immediate exodus of military personnel to the civilian sector. Whilst there have always been financial incentives for pilots to stay in the service the same isn't true for controllers.

I think that the main reason for not recognising military pilots qualifications is that, apart from the transport fleet pilots, they know little or nothing about commercial
flying. Having been involved with training ex-military guys I found that a lot of them did not transition to a multi-crew environment easily, especially the more senior
ones. Having said that, the UK guys were infinitely better at it than the far eastern ex-air force pilots I also dealt with over the years.

[Party Animal]

Prescriptions are free in England from the age of 60 - which I believe is now the upper age limit for RAF Officers.

Not quite Biggus - I was extended beyond 60 in a flying job on what was termed MEOS+ . Not uncommon when there is a need on certain front-line platforms. Should add, that was as a regular and not a reservist.

[NutLoose]

Must employ older seniors?

[wiggy]

Lomon.
The ones that always weren't were pilot and ATC, probably to stop the immediate exodus of military personnel to the civilian sector. Whilst there have always been financial incentives for pilots to stay in the service the same isn't true for controllers.

I think that the main reason for not recognising military pilots qualifications is that, apart from the transport fleet pilots, they know little or nothing about commercial
flying. Having been involved with training ex-military guys I found that a lot of them did not transition to a multi-crew environment easily, especially the more senior.

..and of course you wouldn’t expect for example ex-fast jetters to know much if anything about commercial SOPs….I have to say when I went mil->civ a long time back there were some darned odd expectations at the airline end:…”what do you mean, you’ve been flying for 15 years and never done an Atlantic Clearance…how on earth can that be possible?…

Hopefully things have changed from the days when you got zero credit from the likes of the CAA for subjects that you had possibly been teaching in a military classroom and as a result you ended up plodding through Morse, basic aerodynamics and basic met.

[condor17]

Beags , back in those days a mate who was IRE [ on Boeings ] ; would nip down to Brize on his days off , hop on a VC10 and do an civi IR for the guys .
Flew later with one of his passes who had been a VC10 Flt Commander , now a B75/76 F/O.
Post 2012 , Training Command had dropped the ball with military credits which had previously been available . However as a Civi FI , various resettlement grants , training allowances , courses , still seemed to be used by Mil guys going Civi .
Another odd one ; doing B75 line/route training with an new join ex Puma pilot . In the tea bar , ''wait a min. there's an old colleague'' .... He returned saying '' that guy's a B74 Classic skipper now , whilst a decade ago he was my Flt Sgt LM in the back of my Puma '' !
Wiggy , had been the same for us civis... Short Haul for 20 yrs , ETOPs/N.Atlantic training went VHF 'Blue Spruce' route both ways .
1st atlantic trip , with a Skipper exactly same as I . Thus we became self taught .... as per the book ; call to Shanwick for the Ocean clrnce .. '' Standby ''
40 mins later no clrnce.. 4 mins to Ocean boundary .... I recalled saying '' do you want us to hold clear or enter '' ?
Reply '' why didn't you call earlier '' ? ... Us , '' we did , 45 mins ago , and you said Standby '' !

rgds condor .

[High_Expect]

As a 3500+ FJ guy who just obtained his frozen ATPL I can confirm there is next to no credit given. I didn’t have to do any formal ground school hours but I needed to sit all 13 (changed from 14 a couple of years ago when IFR/VFR Comms were merged) exams and complete a civil MEP CPL and IR.
They now expect me to complete a UPRT course to learn how to recognise and recover from spins, stalls and have awareness of AoA. I’ve been a CFS A2 for 14 years teaching this stuff daily without a break in flying……. Oh and they also won’t give me an FI (Flying Instructor) Qual without doing another course (1800+ hrs logged QFI) The fault squarely lies at the door of the MOD/RAF for not doing anything - but why would they. We do fortunately have an excellent individual fighting our corner off his own back! Fingers crossed his efforts pay off soon but he’ll be the sole person to thank if they do.

[olster]

That is obviously beyond ridiculous HE. On a much less experienced level my son after 5 years university air squadron and 80 hours plus flying taught by highly qualified instructors akin to yourself including aerobatics, formation, solo etc was given zero credit for a PPL from the CAA. Alice in Wonderland really.

[Ken Scott]

Indeed it is but I understand it’s what the MOD wanted as there was no push for any exemptions.

I obtained my ATPL 20 years ago, I sat air law & did an IRT on a C130 with a CAA examiner on board who happened to be ex-mil (I’d done my IRE with him on a Bulldog some years before).

I did my FI 5 years ago as part of resettlement, using an ELC I did a couple of flights - I taught spinning & Aeros on a Firefly (which I’d never flown before and not done any for 20 years) and the FI test on a PA-28, from which I got an unrestricted FI rating with aerobatic instructor. The examiner said that ex-mil QFIs were streets ahead of the civvies he normally taught (I was A2/ IRE on 3 types). As I was doing a mil to civil conversion I effectively had an exemption from doing the whole FI course and I certainly didn’t expect to be given it on a plate (although I pretty much was).

When I was doing the CFS course in the mid-90s one of the staff did an FI test on a Cessna, a type he hadn’t flown before although he was current on the Bulldog. At the end his CAA examiner offered him a job as an examiner…

Should there be greater exemptions? Absolutely but as has been stated it’s obvious why the RAF doesn’t want there to be any. Ironically I think it can work the other way. Having worked hard in your spare time and at considerable cost to obtain a licence most people will leave to use it outside.

Having obtained my ATPL for minimal work and relatively little cost (around £1000 20 years ago) I then stayed in until the end of my service at 55. I was happy to have it as insurance but didn’t feel the need to rush off and use it.

[Gordomac]

None of us need pointing out that the two worlds can be similar and due credit given. Equally, the two worlds can be vastly different in daily practice and training and care given to what is credited.

Forgive me for repeating because I mentioned this story somewhere before. Fle with a new Ex mill Lightening Ace. His first Line trip. He was, actually, my hero and I knew I would exhaust him all the way to Teneriffe & back demanding one exciting RAF Lightening story after another. But, came to the approach brief and true to SOP's , my leg, he sat and looked interested as we went through the nause of agreeing that we both had Aerad charts, same date, same place etc, etc, blah blah.. Finally, I looked up and asked the standard question ;" Any questions ?". He replied ;" Can't we just go in and land- ?" !! Marve.