United at Zurich...what happened here..?

[JanetFlight]

Hummm...Your wise opinions please.
Spoilers malfunction, PIO, unexpected winds, etc..? 🙄

https://youtu.be/3_jsQ_EwXZw?si=a_SVBSl8Bdkvu4u_

[treadigraph]

https://youtu.be/3_jsQ_EwXZw?si=a_SVBSl8Bdkvu4u_

[BonnieLass]

Not sure if it was the camera perspective but how close was that to a tailstrike happening?

It looked very close

[galaxy flyer]

It all starts at about 160’ to 200’ AGL, where there’s a pitch down input increasing the sink rate. At around 75’, you see a large nose up pitch input, but it’s too late to stop the sink and avoid the firm touchdown, laterally a little right wing down. Then, it’s off to the races with some over controlling in pitch, a large yaw, followed by the go, probably with a switch in handling pilot.

[ATC Watcher]

Crosswind correction + POI ? Training flight ? 2nd landing apparently with different PF.

[FUMR]

I can't give you a wise opinion because I wasn't there. It's landing on runway 28, the shorter of all three runways at Zurich. This may suggest a fairly windy day. I have read somewhere in the past that approaches to runway 28 can sometimes be a little challenging due to the surrounding terrain and buildings. They certainly seemed to gobble up the available 8000 feet rather rapidly trying to plonk it down and took the right decision.

[B2N2]

Why the spoilers not deploying the first time?

[dixi188]

Maybe spoilers not armed?

[atakacs]

Seems (with the caveat of the camera angle) as a fairly innocuous and well managed approach. No obvious reason for things to go rather pear shaped after touchdown.

Curious to read more.

[caevans]

There is a note on the Approach Chart for ZRH RWY28 ILS: " Expect turbulences (SIC) on short final during Southwesterly winds." I've experienced moderate turbulence myself on that approach...also in a B767.

[FullWings]

Seems (with the caveat of the camera angle) as a fairly innocuous and well managed approach. No obvious reason for things to go rather pear shaped after touchdown.

Curious to read more.
Yes, seemed stable to me in terms of RoD and looked fairly normal until after touchdown. The slight bounce could be because the ground spoilers may not have deployed and they were still in a flying attitude, possibly a gust increasing lift - difficult to tell from the vid. After that the PF gave the impression they had reverted to trying a fully held off landing, getting close to a tail strike plus PIOing a bit on top of that. Good decision to reject and have another go.

[TheEdge]

Yep, interesting also would be to understand wether or not the Reverser were deployed or not...usuallly afer MLG touch down they should be deployed, at least in the Airbus world.

[Cough]

Ref the spoilers - I'm not sure you'd be able to see them deploy when the aircraft touches down until the nose lowers...

[zerograv]

Maybe spoilers not armed?

its been almost a decade, and the FCOM is not readily available, but if remember correctly ...

Also if the Power Levers are not completely at idle the Spoilers will not deploy, or if they are moved slightly forward after being at idle, the Spoilers will automatically retract.

After touchdown Spoilers and Autobrakes will change your pitch ''feel''. This is to say that, after Main Gear touchdown, the Autobrake will go into action when all conditions are met, and if you don't ''hold'' the Nose Gear it will slam the Nose Gear into the runway.

Looks like that the Tailskid might have contacted the runway, but it is there for that.

At the end of a 7 or 8 hour sector, maybe a bit more, probably in their circadian low, fatigue is very likely there ...

A couple of red faces and some paperwork to complete.

[dixi188]

On the second approach you see the spoilers extend immediatly after touch down.

[Bksmithca]

Wondering if the spoilers didn't deploy because they had already decided to go around?

[FUMR]

Wondering if the spoilers didn't deploy because they had already decided to go around?

That had crossed my mind too.

[FullWings]

Looking at the vid closely, I think they never got the air/ground logic to trigger until just before the nose went down - you can see a momentary deployment of the ground spoilers for a second or two then they retract as the thrust levers went forward for the rejected landing. Could be that the WoW with the high pitch attitude wasn’t enough, or the low level bounces didn’t give ground contact for long enough.

[BugBear]

"and if you don't ''hold'' the Nose Gear it will slam the Nose Gear into the runway."

​​​​​Never experienced such an NG slam. Can you expand on that?

[wondering]

Any idea what the METAR was?

[BFSGrad]

"and if you don't ''hold'' the Nose Gear it will slam the Nose Gear into the runway."

​​​​​Never experienced such an NG slam. Can you expand on that?

There’s a thread in this forum regarding the July 2023 accident for UA702 (N641UA, B767-300) where the new FO accomplished a NG slam hat trick.

[Locked door]

Fullwings,

The spoilers don’t deploy on the first landing, what you’re seeing is the horizontal stabiliser appearing above the wing as the aircraft derotates.

Looking at the lack of deceleration and no spoiler deployment it looks very much like a thrust lever (significantly) not at idle landing. Think steep approach, windy day, shortish runway, low experience, rabbit in the headlights.

LD

[Globaliser]

The spoilers don’t deploy on the first landing, what you’re seeing is the horizontal stabiliser appearing above the wing as the aircraft derotates.Isn't it the spoilers that pop up briefly at 0:34? More visible on the left wing than the right, but the outboard edge of what appears and then disappears is just above the outboard flap track fairing. But the angle makes it difficult to know how long they're actually up for.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_jsQ_EwXZw&t=33s

[Locked door]

Pretty sure that’s an aileron.

[zerograv]

"and if you don't ''hold'' the Nose Gear it will slam the Nose Gear into the runway."

​​​​​Never experienced such an NG slam. Can you expand on that?

Normally one touches down with an attitude of, say, 3 or 4º.
The Autobrakes, if armed, will act almost immediately, and will cause a de-rotation of the aircraft, which one learns to counteract, because if you don't counteract that de-rotation movement, the Nose Gear will land firmly on the runway.
Brought this detail up because if one is used to land with Autobrakes armed, and used to counteract the normal de-rotation that the Autobrakes cause, if one day, for whatever reason the Autobrakes are not functional, it is necessary to keep that in mind, because if one does the normal counteract to compensate for the braking, and the braking is not happening on that day, then one can eventually get in an High Nose attitude after the touchdown.

Wondering if the spoilers didn't deploy because they had already decided to go around?

Agree with that. Could be that because of the initial bounce they decided to go-around.
Had a look at the video a few times attempting to see (hear) if it be possible to hear the moment when, it looks to me, the GEs spooled-up for the go-around, but could not establish that moment. Either it is not possible, or my internet is not good enough for that.

Like Locked Door mentions, it doesn't look like that there was ever any decelaration after the initial touchdown.

Lets assume that, due to the initial bounce, they decided at that moment to go-around. When the engines response gets to the ''full steam ahead'' point, or close to that, the problem that then happens is a very strong Pitch-up tendency which one has to counteract to avoid a tailstrike. It might explain the non-normal attitudes that happened until they finally got in a steady go-around.

A go-around after touchdown is far more demanding, trickier, than a go-around at minimuns.

[FullWings]

The spoilers don’t deploy on the first landing, what you’re seeing is the horizontal stabiliser appearing above the wing as the aircraft derotates.There is what *could* be a very short-lived deployment when the aircraft finally settles if you look outboard. The pitch is high enough by then that I’m not sure if you could see the rest of the spoilers from the camera viewpoint and as said earlier it might be an aileron but you don’t see it before this point.

Lets assume that, due to the initial bounce, they decided at that moment to go-around. When the engines response gets to the ''full steam ahead'' point, or close to that, the problem that then happens is a very strong Pitch-up tendency which one has to counteract to avoid a tailstrike. It might explain the non-normal attitudes that happened until they finally got in a steady go-around.
It’s a good theory, but on the recording the TD occurs at 0:23 and the first signs of N1 increasing are at 0:35 just before the nose lowers. That’s 12 seconds which tells me that the GA decision was actioned no earlier than 8-9s after TD, so after much of the porpoising.

Given that it appears they had no ground spoilers, no reverse and little to no braking (as they got back into the air quite quickly after the thrust came up), it was a good call to throw it away.

[xetroV]

Maybe the go-around was initiated, but go-around thrust was initially not set (autothrottle disengaged), like Emirates 521? Would be interesting to see a report, but I doubt the analysis of this occurrence will go beyond internal review by the airline.

[321XLR]

to add to this, the go-around was after a ??? 7+ hour flight, conducted on an otherwise shortish runway, and likely not "expected"

I think they did a good job, considering everything.

[FlightlessParrot]

Fullwings,

The spoilers don’t deploy on the first landing, what you’re seeing is the horizontal stabiliser appearing above the wing as the aircraft derotates.
SNIP
LD

I see it like Fullwings: the thing, whatever it is, appears above the port wing too far outboard to be the horizontal stabiliser. A similar thing appears above the starboard wing, though less prominently: that one really needs looking at frame-by-frame to be sure.

[Junkflyer]

They did a "good job" in the fact that they did not bend metal or hurt anyone.
But really it seems like the go-around should have been initialized earlier. Almost got a tail strike and seemingly poor rudder and pitch control.

[lederhosen]

A friend on this fleet told me Zurich was a regular initial operating experience route. United has been taking new hires with relatively low experience (eg regionaljet) directly onto the 767. This is at least the second landing mishap in the recent past for them. I can only remember taking off on the cross runway at Zurich. I can imagine things were a little tense for a moment until they got it sorted.

[galaxy flyer]

I suppose there’s something to be said for bounce drills for new FOs without heavy jet time.