ATC Weather Radar.

[MissChief]

Why, unlike the USA, Israel, and others, does the UK not afford weather radar? It would be a greener and safer solution to weather risks, but nobody seems to support this important safety facet. Answers please.

[alfaman]

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/services/business-industry/water/radar-improvements

[Request Orbit]

I've no idea on the official reason, but at a guess it's because planes have weather radar, and pilots are best placed to make a judgement about what's ahead of them. Different airlines, different aircraft and different pilots all have their own idea of what is and isn't acceptable to them, so why would you try and dictate to them without knowing what any of these things are? One scenario I had, three planes departed on the same SID 2 minutes apart on a day of heavy weather avoiding: the first plane goes hard right for 20 miles, the second goes hard left for 10 miles, and the last one doesn't deviate at all and seemed surprised to even be asked.

Given the weather in the UK, if ATC tried to guess based on a weather radar, there'd probably be a lot of days where the radar lit up the entire sky. If planes were then vectored to a completely different side of the British Isles to avoid it, and it turns out it actually looked fine to them from the cockpit, how is that greener?

While I'm sure some must've happened, I'm not aware of a glut of wx-related incidents within UK airspace. Got any context for why you think this is suddenly a safety issue?

[wiggy]

Why, unlike the USA, Israel, and others, does the UK not afford weather radar? It would be a greener and safer solution to weather risks, but nobody seems to support this important safety facet. Answers please.

What risks are you referring to?

I’m no longer current but I’d echo 😉 the thoughts of Request Orbit.

Airliners have their own weather radar and so are able to pick their own preferred way around the bad stuff (with ATC assistance). Also weather avoidance is a 3D problem and a crew looking at their radar picture might be in a better position to quickly assess the weather effecting flight at their level than a controller working multiple aircraft at different levels.

[OvertHawk]

Why, unlike the USA, Israel, and others, does the UK not afford weather radar? It would be a greener and safer solution to weather risks, but nobody seems to support this important safety facet. Answers please.

You seem to have a particular opinion and agenda

It would perhaps be helpful if you explained to us why you feel so strongly about this issue.

I have no idea where you get the idea that it would be greener.

I echo the sentiments of other here - weather avoidance is the responsibility of the aircrew not the controller.

[360BakTrak]

And why is this in 'Rumours & News'?!

[10 DME ARC]

Weather radar in the places I have have worked is only used tactically as most feeds are at least 15min old when we get it!

In the olden days with un-processed radar you could always cut off the suppression and get a raw primary picture which depending on the radar was great and very accurate!

[212man]

Why, unlike the USA, Israel, and others, does the UK not afford weather radar? It would be a greener and safer solution to weather risks, but nobody seems to support this important safety facet. Answers please.
I don't know what you mean, when you say there no wx RADAR in the UK? As Alfaman's link shows "Our current network consists of 15 operational weather radars across the UK". I remember it being installed in the early 1990s, with a RADAR head north of Aberdeen.

Additionally, satellite based imagery is probably the future anyway.

[Lascaille]

Odd and out-of-place messages about 'safety' placed where a particular person is likely to see them are sometimes used to convey a message of sorts. A type of cyber-bullying, if you will.

I have no idea whether or not this is the case in this instance.

[chevvron]

There's a weather radar at Martins Top, which was originally the site of a ROTOR GCI station in the '50s situated near but not connected to the present NATS en route radar just south of Bovingdon.

[kontrolor]

any modern radar is capable of detecting and sending weather picture in Asterix 10 format...the picture is not that detailed as dedicated wx radar, but good enough.

[MissChief]

When cells are dotted all about main areas around JFK, MCO, ORD, LAX and the like, radar steers are given by ATC in the terminal control areas. And they work efficiently for controlled traffic flow. In the UK, we are often forced to ask (and sometimes wait) before given approval for weather avoidance shown by our own aircraft weather radar. The US picture given to us is far more accurate, and the controllers are able to monitor the rapid movement of storm cells better than a/c proceeding and descending/climbing at 250 kts.

Is is a question of investment?

[chevvron]

There are weather displays available in London Terminal Control Centre at Swanwick and the Group Supervisors there are able to monitor the progress of weather systems across the London FIR.

[alfaman]

When cells are dotted all about main areas around JFK, MCO, ORD, LAX and the like, radar steers are given by ATC in the terminal control areas. And they work efficiently for controlled traffic flow. In the UK, we are often forced to ask (and sometimes wait) before given approval for weather avoidance shown by our own aircraft weather radar. The US picture given to us is far more accurate, and the controllers are able to monitor the rapid movement of storm cells better than a/c proceeding and descending/climbing at 250 kts.

Is is a question of investment?
https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/alc/libview_normal.aspx?id=9065#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20ATC%20rad ars%20don,you%20what%20kind%20it%20is. In the US & the UK, the crew are responsible for weather avoidance, not ATC. If you're waiting for approval to turn in either airspace, it's probably because there's something in the way, which needs to be moved too.

[MissChief]

Of course the ultimate responsibility for navigation lies with the people flying the aircraft. But how many of the contributors here have experienced serious and fast-moving weather patterns, where US ATC help has been invaluable? Flying a wide-body in congested airspace with storms around the place is not a task left to flight crew to decide where and when they change heading. It is teamwork. Which improves flight safety.

[chevvron]

In the US & the UK, the crew are responsible for weather avoidance, not ATC. If you're waiting for approval to turn in either airspace, it's probably because there's something in the way, which needs to be moved too.
I've often heard crews request a turn 'to avoid a buildup' and never heard a request refused.

[Request Orbit]

It is teamwork. My experience is pilots tell us what they need, we either agree, offer alternative solutions that will work (“I can’t give you a left turn but you can have whatever you need to the right”) or say, as one example, “as soon as you’re through 6000ft I can give you what you need, expedite” giving the condition that will make it happen. As I said above, I’ve offered pilots headings based on what other people are doing and they are more than happy to carry on the standard route. If we start dictating unnecessary weather headings, who is it helping?

We get pilot/airline feedback at our annual emergency/safety training days, weather has come up, but usually in the context of delays/slots on the ground and communication around that. The feedback - at least that reaches us - is that how it’s handled once you’re airborne works well and is appreciated. I’m not saying it’s flawless but it seems to work for everyone. Is this a common feeling at your operator?

[Gonzo]

I think this can be seen both ways.

The OP I think refers to 'weather radar' as a selectable layer available on the ATC radar display, rather than something available to the supervisor via a met service.

Between the US and Europe, there are airspace differences and separation differences.

As Request Orbit says, in my experience, having an idea of wx that aircraft will probably want to avoid is good. But individual aircraft type/crew combos are very different in their interpretation of what that is, so I'm not sure, unless in the most severe of severe conditions, what help overlaid WX radar would be.

[chevvron]

The OP I think refers to 'weather radar' as a selectable layer available on the ATC radar display, rather than something available to the supervisor via a met service.

We had that available at Farnborough after the 2002 re-fit which included an ASR-10 plot extracted radar. It wasn't very effective because we couldn't get 'raw' radar as the plot extracting was done at the radar head rather than at the radar console and hence it was rarely used.

[alfaman]

I've often heard crews request a turn 'to avoid a buildup' and never heard a request refused.
Me neither, never turned one down either - but I guess it is a remote possibility. Always taken the view that the crew were in the best place to assess the severity & so decide the best course of action. Back when I started, weather clutter on the primary was tactically a bit of a nuisance tbh, but times have moved on.

[Equivocal]

Back in my operational days I worked with several primary radars which could be tweaked to show weather - one was better at picking up weather than aircraft - and if the weather was particularly troublesome I might offer suggestions based on the clutter that I could see. It was notable, though, that the heavier weather that the pilot saw on the aircraft's radar or through the window often did not correlate with where the clutter was on my radar. As Request_Orbit says, teamwork finds the best solutions when there is challenging weather about or whatever. This was all approach work so I'm talking about low to medium levels only.

[Singe de Graisse]

Weather channels on ATC radar are 2D, they can only give you range and direction and contain no height information so is of limited value. Dedicated Met radar are 3D and therefore give more information, however met radar do not operate continuously, they periodically provide an update to the Met Office mainframe which use them to fine tune the met forecasts which are made available to ATC including rain maps.

[Rupperrt78]

Weather channels on ATC radar are 2D, they can only give you range and direction and contain no height information so is of limited value. Dedicated Met radar are 3D and therefore give more information, however met radar do not operate continuously, they periodically provide an update to the Met Office mainframe which use them to fine tune the met forecasts which are made available to ATC including rain maps.


working in Hong Kong, our weather radar has 8 different height bands to select and an 8 minute update.

Honestly I could not imagine working without it having convective weather for 8 months a year. Weather deviations are always negotiated and we plan strategically how departures and arrivals will be routed according to the weather development and do a lot of level and heading coordinations with adjacent sectors.

We can’t accommodate every pilot request as there is simply too much traffic so it’s good to see how serious and how large a CB is and if a left turn is possible instead of the requested right turn for example.