Ual-SWA Jumpseat Incident

[warbirdfinder]

Any updated information on the UAL pilot, who was riding a SWA jump seat, who supposedly turned in a SWA pilot to the FAA?

[ozbiggles]

Yeah, the update is so called professional pilots should do some basic fact finding before posting drival.

[warbirdfinder]

The update is the UAL pilot did nothing wrong and did not contact the FAA. Apparently, she told a "trusted friend" in confidence of what transpired, and without telling the UAL pilot, the friend notified the FAA,

[olster]

This is beyond outrageous. Riding in the cockpit in another airline is a privilege and should be respected. As a former B737 captain we would sometimes authorize jump seats in the cockpit. It is a confined and sometimes very busy environment. Frankly it can be a pain to have someone else there but we did it to ‘help out’ when needed. Apart from (of course) a very serious safety issue the jumpseat protocol is to STFU. Speak only when spoken to. If reports are correct, the safety issue here is a non event and confusingly describes normal operations in terms of speed brake use. To report to the FAA is frankly jaw dropping and spectacularly ungrateful to a captain helping another airline crew member’s commuting. I can not blame SWA captains banning UAL pilots from their flight decks.

[safetypee]

Did this event involve a transgression of a recommendation (manufacturer), or the judgement of a standardising procedure (operator), or an erroneous violation of a hard limit?

Whilst failing to report the latter is of concern to the SMS advocates, it could have been judged as an error without consequence (aircraft design safety margin), often seen in LOSA.

Alternatively independent reporting of lesser categories could be detrimental to safety, the principles, professionalism, and knowledge of the concept of safety by the reporter, which erodes trust.

Edit: from a web based report

A fairly junior United first officer was flying in the jump seat of a Southwest 737 from San Francisco (SFO) to San Diego (SAN)
The jump seater noticed that the first officer flying (who was also a fairly new hire) was using speed brakes without flaps, and recommended that he may want to add flaps
The captain told the first officer to add power and cut the speed brakes, and then he deployed flaps
The captain thanked the pilot in the jump seat for bringing this to their attention; the flight landed without incident, and everyone went on their way

But … reporting was by a third party, and the FAA appears to have reacted to 'hearsay'
https://onemileatatime.com/news/jump-seating-united-pilot-drama-southwest/

[olster]

I think, reading between the lines that is possibly a potentially low speed event with speedbrake and detiorating energy plus Captain temporarily distracted. Hence the call for flaps and more thrust plus cancelling speedbrake. However, all conjecture. Unacceptable to disrespect the courtesy shown by reporting to the Feds. Also the digital recording would have downloaded any exceedance of parameters. I also strongly suspect that the partner / friend angle might be an @rse saving exercise.

[waito]

I think, reading between the lines that is possibly a potentially low speed event with speedbrake and detiorating energy plus Captain temporarily distracted. Hence the call for flaps and more thrust plus cancelling speedbrake. However, all conjecture.
I read it the same way.
Only based on the webpage statements - speed on the way towards minimum clean speed, by the time the CPT responded he felt like now there's power necessary. Another reason to add power could have been too low speed in the traffic flow, without coming close to to Vzf

[Sailvi767]

They were above clean and put out speed brakes. Clean goes up with the brakes extended. She pointed out the error as she should have and it was corrected. That should have been the end of the story.
There are multiple versions about how her story got to the FAA. Most don’t make sense and the average lay person would not even be able to relay the story to the FAA. She had a strong social media presence but has chosen not to comment. That may be both union and company advice.

[waito]

This is from the guy on X who first reported about that story.

Even he states the following is not known to be the thruth. Sounds plausible, so we should NOT come to conclusions now. Let's see if FAA will say one word in the first place.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1635/screenshot_20240512_172307_opera_mini_7b67bf6b1ecb8d84408705 f3105276c8f5f06f9c.jpg

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[IRRenewal]

Message to all pilots: don't take anyone on the jumpseat if there is no legal requirement to do so.

[dhorgan]

I totally agree

[warbirdfinder]

IRRenewal said: Message to all pilots: don't take anyone on the jumpseat if there is no legal requirement to do so.

Do you mean to say to not allow anyone on the jumpseat unless it is someone like an FAA inspector or checkpilot?

If so, that is ludicrous statement. Literally thousands of pilots rely upon the jumpseat to travel and I welcome another set of eyes in the cockpit.

[blorgwinder]

The jumpseater is famous!!!!! For all the wrong reasons.

Thanks for messing up a really good thing. Helped lots of crews out....

[Rusty1]

“They were above clean and put out speed brakes. Clean goes up with the brakes extended. She pointed out the error as she should have and it was corrected.”

Would you care to explain the error in this and why a jump seater should interfere in the NORMAL cockpit operation or were they looking for more social media notoriety !!!!

[dr dre]

Did anything seriously bad come out of the reporting? As far as I’m aware the pilots involved were never stood down or have lost their jobs. The FAA simply contacted them to find out what happened, after an explanation the case was closed with no further action, as even the FAA knew it wasn’t that big of a deal.

Was the ‘friend’ wrong to report it to the FAA without having witnessed the incident themselves? Yes, but I would rather a culture of reporting of incidents that may not have safety implications vs a culture of cover ups and turning a blind eye to normalised deviations.

[Lookleft]

It looks like Qantas pilots will be also banned from the jumpseat with that last post.

[172_driver]

"I am from the FAA and I am here to help"

A culture where events can be reported without reprecussions is nice but sometimes you don't need to wake up a sleeping bear.

[Junkflyer]

All was well until said jumpseater informed "trusted friend" of the non-incident.
Makes me think of a couple of old sayings. "Loose Lips Sink Ships" and "Its better to keep remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

[IRRenewal]

IRRenewal said: Message to all pilots: don't take anyone on the jumpseat if there is no legal requirement to do so.

Do you mean to say to not allow anyone on the jumpseat unless it is someone like an FAA inspector or checkpilot?

If so, that is ludicrous statement. Literally thousands of pilots rely upon the jumpseat to travel and I welcome another set of eyes in the cockpit.

Don't allow them in the flightdeck unless you have to, there will normally be a seat of some description available in the cabin.

Your company rosters two sets of eyes to be there and that should be enough to keep your flight safe. That third set of eyes also comes with a third mouth to talk and distract you, not to mention they can drop you in it as illustrated in this thread.

[island_airphoto]

Wow!
I relied on jumpseats to get around back in the day and I would have NEVER dropped a dime on the crew unless I seriously thought they were going to kill me.
(nothing like that ever happened and the speed brake thing barely gets a 1 on a 1 to 10 scale of hose-ups)

[warbirdfinder]

IRRenewal stated: Don't allow them in the flightdeck unless you have to, there will normally be a seat of some description available in the cabin.

Your company rosters two sets of eyes to be there and that should be enough to keep your flight safe. That third set of eyes also comes with a third mouth to talk and distract you, not to mention they can drop you in it as illustrated in this thread.

Regarding a seat of "some description", perhaps a seat in the lavatory or the F/A jump seat? A third set of eyes is always welcome in the cockpit. I have seen no credible evidence of the UAL pilot contacted the FAA, only rumors.

[vegassun]

This incident is EXACTLY why I put jumpseaters in the cabin if at all possible. I won't leave one on the ground, but if there is a cabin seat, that is where they will sit. The "I need to sit up here so I can get off quick" excuse won't work either. Unless I know the person, that's how it will go down. Today's world has too much weirdness in it and everything is documented on cell phones. No thanks, not getting paid extra for the added risk of having an eyewitness watching every move we make for however long the flight is.

[rant off]

[island_airphoto]

This incident is EXACTLY why I put jumpseaters in the cabin if at all possible. I won't leave one on the ground, but if there is a cabin seat, that is where they will sit. The "I need to sit up here so I can get off quick" excuse won't work either. Unless I know the person, that's how it will go down. Today's world has too much weirdness in it and everything is documented on cell phones. No thanks, not getting paid extra for the added risk of having an eyewitness watching every move we make for however long the flight is.

[rant off]
What used to bug me is SWA would have me board first and just stand in the galley. If there was room, I grabbed a seat in the back and if not I went into the cockpit. All the passengers thought I was the SWA pilot and kept asking me where to sit and so on since I was standing there. I learned to not try to explain what I was doing and just tell them "no assigned seats, just go pick one".

[Avman]

So sad to see it has come down to this. Perhaps it is best seen as an isolated incident and nothing more. It reminds me of the classroom days when one pupil would misbehave and the entire class would be punished. We see too much of that now days too.

[island_airphoto]

So sad to see it has come down to this. Perhaps it is best seen as an isolated incident and nothing more. It reminds me of the classroom days when one pupil would misbehave and the entire class would be punished. We see too much of that now days too.
I would have never even dreamed of doing anything like this, my own company pilots probably would have strung me up for ruining it for the rest of them. I would have had to be in fear of imminent death to even think about calling the FAA.

[Squawk7777]

Don't allow them in the flightdeck unless you have to, there will normally be a seat of some description available in the cabin.

Your company rosters two sets of eyes to be there and that should be enough to keep your flight safe. That third set of eyes also comes with a third mouth to talk and distract you, not to mention they can drop you in it as illustrated in this thread.

You're either new to airline flying or have no clue how pilots commute in the US. I have commuted all my airline life, because I cho( o) se to or simply refuse to live in base. I have even jumpseated transatlantic a few times, not the best seat on the ship but it gets me to where I need or want to be. That being said:

* You have a responsibilty as a jumpseater. Any kind of incident and the FAA would like to talk to you, too. Also applies to blood alcohol and fatigue (calling fatigued and riding home on the j/s is a big No) etc.
* "there will normally be a seat of some description available in the cabin" Do you really think pilots love to ride up front to see other pilots work? Again, I question your (airline) experience.
* There are unwritten rules among pilots, like what happens on the flighdeck stays on the flightdeck. I am not on a 737 and am not familiar with SWA SOP's but is this incident (by the new First Officer) reportable? I imagine SWA having some sort of aircraft/pilot monitoring program (FOQA).
* What about if the SWA crew in question were going to submit an ASAP about it? There's not much the FAA can do about it.

Gossip I heard is that this UAL pilot's husband works for the FAA. This still does not sound very plausible to me.

In today's social media age, I wouldn't be surprised her moving to a UAL crew base.

[Squawk7777]

This incident is EXACTLY why I put jumpseaters in the cabin if at all possible. I won't leave one on the ground, but if there is a cabin seat, that is where they will sit. The "I need to sit up here so I can get off quick" excuse won't work either. Unless I know the person, that's how it will go down. Today's world has too much weirdness in it and everything is documented on cell phones. No thanks, not getting paid extra for the added risk of having an eyewitness watching every move we make for however long the flight is.

[rant off]

As a jumpseater you are still required to adhere to the airline's ops, that includes sterile cockpit and usage of PEDs. Making unauthorized recordings of aircrew and getting caught doing it will certainly ruin your day(s). Most airplanes are recording every single input. I have used my jumpseaters as an additional resource and have been used as a resource as well. It mostly depends on your personal attitude how you perceive a extra set of eyes (or two if you are on my plane).

[rudestuff]

“They were above clean and put out speed brakes. Clean goes up with the brakes extended. She pointed out the error as she should have and it was corrected.”
Can someone translate this into 767 lingo please? Does the clean speed really change or do they mean the top of the amber band goes above clean speed (quite normal in the 767)?

[FUMR]

I remember many moons ago that on a number of occasions when I rode jumpseat as a non-pilot (but as ATC) the Captain explained the sterile cockpit rule, but additionally added that if I saw anything glaringly wrong I should speak up! I don't think it was meant in terms of cockpit procedures but probably more in the sense of an extra pair of eyes scanning outside the cockpit.

I do distinctly remember an occasion, also very many moons ago, on a Trident, when a chatty captain (no sterile cockpit in those days) received a line up and wait (or "hold" in those days). He lined up, called "rolling" and proceeded to take off. I was sure that we hadn't been given take off clearance but since the F/O seemed happy I concluded that I was wrong and kept very quiet. After take off Amsterdam ATC pointed out that we had not been cleared but that on hearing the "rolling" transmission they concluded there was nothing to impede us and allowed the take-off to continue. One very red-faced captain. I decided that in future I would speak up. Never needed to though, thank goodness!

[zero/zero]

Am I the only one that's uncomfortable with the number of supposedly professional aircrew uttering "what happens on the flightdeck, stays on the flight deck"? Thought our industry had moved on from that attitude

[IRRenewal]

You're either new to airline flying or have no clue how pilots commute in the US.

As this is an anonymous forum you have as much right to question my experience as I have to question yours. And you are right, I have no experience flying in the US. Having said that, if you feel the need to question my experience as a pilot it basically indicates you have run out of reasonable arguments to counteract my point of view. I have carried hundreds if not thousands of jumpseaters during my career. It is just that with us the default is that they sit in the cabin, not on the flightdeck jumpseat, and I do consider that the safer option.

[Squawk7777]

As this is an anonymous forum you have as much right to question my experience as I have to question yours. And you are right, I have no experience flying in the US. Having said that, if you feel the need to question my experience as a pilot it basically indicates you have run out of reasonable arguments to counteract my point of view. I have carried hundreds if not thousands of jumpseaters during my career. It is just that with us the default is that they sit in the cabin, not on the flightdeck jumpseat, and I do consider that the safer option.

You have no experience with pilot commuting aka jump seating and how it is used in the US. This thread is about an incident concerning 14 CFR 121 OPS.

There are no options taking a seat in the back because the bl00dy plane is full. Pilots are not permitted on F/A jumpseats (contractual issue) . And I am referring to jumpseaters aka commuting pilots who are CASS certified, and not deadheaders (supernumerary).

If you have carried thousands of jumpseaters in your career as you claim, I very much question your claim. An extra set of eyes is worth a lot, if you perceive this as a liability or threat you might work at the wrong place.
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P.S. I'll add more to your " if you feel the need to question my experience as a pilot it basically indicates you have run out of reasonable arguments to counteract my point of view." comment tomorrow, there was a NASA study actually contradicting your statement. Getting late here ...

[Squawk7777]

Am I the only one that's uncomfortable with the number of supposedly professional aircrew uttering "what happens on the flightdeck, stays on the flight deck"? Thought our industry had moved on from that attitude

We have, there are several safety programs in use, the US uses ASAP, the UK ASR if my memory serves me well. Don't use my comment "what happens on the flightdeck, stays on the flight deck" to imply any kind of cover-up or willfull disregard of SOPs etc. I am referring to pilots having a bad day. I hope your company doesn't encourage you turning fellow pilots in... Would your company encourage you to call the local aviation authority for an event that is probably covered by ASAP?

[island_airphoto]

Am I the only one that's uncomfortable with the number of supposedly professional aircrew uttering "what happens on the flightdeck, stays on the flight deck"? Thought our industry had moved on from that attitude
I didn't give that many rides compared to the ones I got - no one seemed to like my ancient freight dog - but I would have kicked anyone right out on the tarmac to walk home that said something like "better fly according to every FAR/Opspec/Etc or I am turning you in". I wouldn't expect anyone to let something slide like a drunk pilot, gross incompetence, attempted suicide, or other life-threatening issues, but that speed brake thing? Not even CLOSE.
If jumpseaters ever did get perceived as FAA stand-ins, that would be the end of that.

[BoeingDriver99]

If I was a skipper in La La Land then I know where UAL pilots would be sitting in future - at the gate waiting for the next flight to squeal on. And good luck to them! Wish I was one of God’s chosen pilots! (That’s a joke for the dim folk).

If you think having an “extra pair of eyes” is beneficial on your flight deck then I would suggest you seriously consider your competency in the either LHS or RHS.

[stilton]

If I was a skipper in La La Land then I know where UAL pilots would be sitting in future - at the gate waiting for the next flight to squeal on. And good luck to them! Wish I was one of God’s chosen pilots! (That’s a joke for the dim folk).

If you think having an “extra pair of eyes” is beneficial on your flight deck then I would suggest you seriously consider your competency in the either LHS or RHS.



I found it beneficial on occasion, I spent nearly two decades commuting by air and many of those trips were reluctantly spent on the jumpseat, almost every Captain would say if you see anything we didn’t notice let us know and I did occasionally, my small contribution was always received gratefully.


I always said the same thing to my jumpseaters when I became Captain and likewise was happy to have them speak up if they saw anything untoward

[West Coast]

I found it beneficial on occasion, I spent nearly two decades commuting by air and many of those trips were reluctantly spent on the jumpseat, almost every Captain would say if you see anything we didn’t notice let us know and I did occasionally, my small contribution was always received gratefully.


I always said the same thing to my jumpseaters when I became Captain and likewise was happy to have them speak up if they saw anything untoward

I commuted for 16 of my 25 years. Share your sentiments 100%.

[zero/zero]

We have, there are several safety programs in use, the US uses ASAP, the UK ASR if my memory serves me well. Don't use my comment "what happens on the flightdeck, stays on the flight deck" to imply any kind of cover-up or willfull disregard of SOPs etc. I am referring to pilots having a bad day. I hope your company doesn't encourage you turning fellow pilots in... Would your company encourage you to call the local aviation authority for an event that is probably covered by ASAP?

It’s not me implying… it’s literally what the phrase means! At my airline if you have a bad day then you turn yourself in (after discussion with the other crew). Then if and when the FDM team/regulator comes knocking you refer them to the ASAP/ASR that you’ve already submitted.

Those kind of phrases belong at a Vegas Bachelor Party, not in a modern professional flight deck environment

[rudestuff]

“They were above clean and put out speed brakes. Clean goes up with the brakes extended. She pointed out the error as she should have and it was corrected.”Can anyone explain this to someone who's never flown 737?

[olster]

There is an amber band on the speed tape which reflects 1.3 g margin to stick shake. It is variable under certain conditions, anti ice on / off, flap position etc. Speedbrake use has a small influence I understand. It has different interpretations high / low altitude. There is a broader description in the FCTM. Essentially if you are encroaching the amber band, there is reduced manoeuvre margin. However that is easily corrected as described by cancel speedbrake, add thrust and / or select flaps. My interpretation of events here is that ‘clean’ refers to the top of the amber band. The minimum clean speed is a green icon which is referenced to weight and does not change with speedbrake use.

[rudestuff]

There is an amber band on the speed tape which reflects 1.3 g margin to stick shake. It is variable under certain conditions, anti ice on / off, flap position etc. Speedbrake use has a small influence I understand. It has different interpretations high / low altitude. There is a broader description in the FCTM. Essentially if you are encroaching the amber band, there is reduced manoeuvre margin. However that is easily corrected as described by cancel speedbrake, add thrust and / or select flaps. My interpretation of events here is that ‘clean’ refers to the top of the amber band. The minimum clean speed is a green icon which is referenced to weight and does not change with speedbrake use.
Understood. Exactly the same as the 767 then. Is there a prohibition on the 737 against operating in the amber band? If so it's an interesting choice of colour.

On the 767 the top of amber band is referred to as minimum maneuver speed, and full speedbrake at min clean will nearly always bring the amber band above min clean. The top of the band ensures 25+15° of bank and the middle ensures 15+15° of bank to stick shaker. It's amber because it means 'caution' so if you're wings level (ie not maneuvering!) then you can fly in the amber band with caution.

[Squawk7777]

It’s not me implying… it’s literally what the phrase means! At my airline if you have a bad day then you turn yourself in (after discussion with the other crew). Then if and when the FDM team/regulator comes knocking you refer them to the ASAP/ASR that you’ve already submitted.

Those kind of phrases belong at a Vegas Bachelor Party, not in a modern professional flight deck environment

Do you set standards now? Your word and interpretation is the law? You must be very fun to fly with. Sounds to me you have a lot to learn with regards to CRM. Got news for you, I have flown for a UK airline and your superiority attitude is baseless.

[olster]

Broadly correct rude stuff without getting into too much detail.

[zero/zero]

Do you set standards now? Your word and interpretation is the law? You must be very fun to fly with. Sounds to me you have a lot to learn with regards to CRM. Got news for you, I have flown for a UK airline and your superiority attitude is baseless.

If you think that suggesting airlines should function with open reporting and just culture is “superiority attitude”, then you have very thin skin

[172_driver]

Can anyone explain this to someone who's never flown 737?

As I recall from the 737 clean speed (annotated as UP) on the speed tape did not change with speed brake selection. It was fixed at Vref40+70. Most pilots never operated below UP-speed without selecting flaps, even though UP speed was well above min. maneuver speed (top of amber band). The airspeed low warning was not triggered until well into the amber band.

[island_airphoto]

Do you set standards now? Your word and interpretation is the law? You must be very fun to fly with. Sounds to me you have a lot to learn with regards to CRM. Got news for you, I have flown for a UK airline and your superiority attitude is baseless.
I'll give him a ride, but he has to wear a blindfold and I'll switch on crew isolate on the audio.
Seriously, who would EVER give anyone a ride in a car, boat, airplane, submarine, or snowmobile who thought of themselves as junior law enforcement waiting to find something to violate you on?

[Retired DC9 driver]

Sometimes a jump seater can help the operation.
Years ago, I was generously offered the jump seat on a US carrier. I flew at the time for a Canadian major Airline, but also have an FAA license.
Anyway the flight was full, and I was heading out West for a Middle Fork river trip. Only way I could make it.
I was offered a headset, but otherwise stayed quiet. Inbound to Chicago, the new (flustered?) First Officer got on the wrong frequency . Silence, when he switched over, and somehow he couldn't get back to his previous freq..Very busy airspace.
Silence in the cockpit. The Captain wasn't happy at all. Finally after squirming in my seat, I said "Try 119.2" . I had flown into ORD for years and knew all the freqs going in or out.
ORD TRACON comes on, "Glad to hear from you XXX. We thought we had lost you"
Silence the rest of the flight except for SOPs. Though the Captain did say something about "having to depend on a jump-seater to get on the correct freq"..

True story
ps. When I made Captain I always offered the jump seat to pilots, our own flight attendants, even pilots with other Airlines, with proper ID. A professional courtesy that saved me a few times.
ps. This was all pre 9-11. Now foreign Air Carrier pilots can't ride in cockpit jump seat on US carriers. As a retired Captain, even I can't ride jump seat on my own Airline. :rolleyes:

[Nose Rider]

As this is an anonymous forum you have as much right to question my experience as I have to question yours. And you are right, I have no experience flying in the US. Having said that, if you feel the need to question my experience as a pilot it basically indicates you have run out of reasonable arguments to counteract my point of view. I have carried hundreds if not thousands of jumpseaters during my career. It is just that with us the default is that they sit in the cabin, not on the flightdeck jumpseat, and I do consider that the safer option.
As a former airline pilot myself that seems like a reasonable way to handle the jump seat to me. If there is a seat in the back, take a seat in the back. If not, come on up. As a jump seater I would never ask to sit up front if there was a seat in the back, especially if you work for another airline. That is just being courteous to the crew. It's common sense.