Russians playing games with their jammers (believed)

[luoto]

GPS jamming has been ramping up in the area around Finland/Estonia etc in recent times both for civ and mil aircraft. Now in the week it has stopped nighttime landings into EETU and return to base by a couple (so far admitted) Finnair flights. A few differences in the details as reported as to whether the jamming occurred in flight/en route or in landing.

https://news.err.ee/1609326360/second-finnair-flight-turns-back-from-tartu-due-to-gps-interference

[ATC Watcher]

GPS jamming and spoofing in the Baltic is not new and even becomes a standard nowadays . what is new is the combined introduction of RNP App with Remote tower ops and downgrading ATC for FIS in that airport .
All 3 to save costs of course .

[luoto]

GPS jamming and spoofing in the Baltic is not new and even becomes a standard nowadays . what is new is the combined introduction of RNP App with Remote tower ops and downgrading ATC for FIS in that airport .
All 3 to save costs of course .
Indeed, the difference in this case is apparently "no GPS guide=no land" at EETU. It is not an airport I am familiar with and neither do I need to sit in the big seat with all the responsibility.

Our news generally has been full of regular jamming stories, mostly by the beastly Russians and not by the brave NATO forces when doing a few mil exercises up north though - they were NOTAMed :)

I do not claim specialist knowledge on the remote ATC, and no doubt it is all good and dandy until a problem occurs and then "oh..."

[waito]

No ILS available? How about NPA, or visual? I mean, the Russians can bring traffic to a complete stop??

[luoto]

Remote ATC and nearby Russians seems to be the flavour of this different article. https://news.err.ee/1609326783/expert-finnair-will-have-to-discontinue-tartu-flights-if-solution-not-found

[Intrance]

The airport has basically no real traffic aside from this Finnair flight. The other traffic is general aviation and mostly school flights of the Estonian Aviation Academy. There is no real reason to have an ILS system and tower services in place, it does not make financial sense. The charts still list ILS available for RW26 but GNSS is required for initial approach and missed approach. Without radar control to replace those parts with vectors, not too many options left. No other NPA approaches available.

In recently published maps regarding GPS interference reports, there were none over Tartu, but some just North/Northwest of Tartu, pretty much where the flight diverted. It is likely the crew encountered the interference in flight, had no RAIM prediction anymore and possibly that prohibits them from performing the RNP. I do not know the procedures at Finnair, but more and more operators prohibit visuals at night nowadays.

If I had the fuel and nothing in my manuals to prohibit it, I would have likely continued on a bit further to see if the interference passes. It has been quite localized around Estonia and Helsinki (over the Gulf of Finland, over and around Amari airbase mostly). Usually you pass through the affected area pretty quickly.

[swh]

The charts still list ILS available for RW26 but GNSS is required for initial approach and missed approach. Without radar control to replace those parts with vectors, not too many options left. No other NPA approaches available.

Should be able to navigate to ERULI with raw data (D10.6 IUM on the LOC), the missed approach to NIVER could be promulgated by NOTAM to follow the back course of the ILS to 2000 ft, and hold on a DME/LOC fix at the same position as NIVER.

[bille1319]

Precise nav is affected as corrections for L1L2 are affected. Galileo, Glosnass and GPS are still active but their corrections are in error. This is what we experienced N of Gydinia, Poland on 27, 28 April.

[luoto]

Should be able to navigate to ERULI with raw data (D10.6 IUM on the LOC), the missed approach to NIVER could be promulgated by NOTAM to follow the back course of the ILS to 2000 ft, and hold on a DME/LOC fix at the same position as NIVER.

I guess Finnair must have had its reasons to not undertake the advice given above, whether the decision was made solely by the pilot in charge, or in conjunction with the company's security and operations teams i don't know. Finnair generally does not seem/feel to be so risk sensitive (not a complaint, and I trust their professionalism to the best of my knowledge versus what might appear "cowboy" behaviour by some other carriers outside of the EU).

[luoto]

Finnair have pulled the flights for now: https://yle.fi/a/74-20086338 https://news.err.ee/1609328058/finnair-suspends-flights-to-tartu-for-1-month-to-seek-gps-jamming-solution

[waito]

Finnair have pulled the flights for now: https://yle.fi/a/74-20086338 https://news.err.ee/1609328058/finnair-suspends-flights-to-tartu-for-1-month-to-seek-gps-jamming-solution
... and they analyze to use non-RNP approaches.

[Giuff]

Huge spoofing over the Black sea as well for me last night. Never seen this level so far.

[luoto]

Yes, one of our tabloids reports today jamming games affecting EFHK-EFJO (very close to our friendly neighbour in the east).

The article's headline said that the captain's "solution" was a victory or honour flight over Karelia :)

Link: in Finnish https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/cc3f4015-dfa3-46d8-8519-c61b4ab910e4

Translation of the first part:
Finnair's Tuesday morning flight from Helsinki to Joensuu had to make an extra turn due to GPS jamming in Russia. The flight in question departed at 9.05 am.
Sirri Rimppi, a reporter for Iltalehti, reports that the aircraft made an extra circuit over Joensuu before landing.
- The captain announced to the passengers that "we were doing a lap of honour over Karelia," Rimppi says.
- According to the captain, Russia, our neighbour to the east, caused a disturbance and for a moment it looked as if we would not be able to land in Joensuu. Then he said that the disturbance had cleared during the turn. The aircraft landed successfully at Joensuu airport.


So I guess the games will keep on going, just like a tired toddler making a noise for attention and being a brat, Vlad's workers are continuing their games.

[EEngr]

GPS spoofing to protect military operations is to be expected. But you can't just turn on the jammers on the eve of an attack or you'll give away the game. So, random incidents at various times and places so the opposition won't know when its the "real thing".

That's my guess.

[luoto]

Yeah, of course other countries do GPS jamming and no doubt send fake traffic also at times in general to confuse those monitoring the elint.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/faa-files-reveal-a-surprising-threat-to-airline-safety-the-us-militarys-gps-tests

[Ekdotos]

GPS jamming and sometimes spoofing has always been going on close to any conflict area.
Airports needs to have ground based approach equipment to ensure the traffic for sure..

[Sallyann1234]

eLoran is the answer to GPS jamming. But brings its own problems...

[ACMS]

Get a navigator and go………like the good ol days before this new fangled GPS stuff….i’m sure a B17 in WW2 could have found it…

[Right20deg]

Perhaps try and get rid of the regimes that use jamming as a weapon of mischief.

[ATC Watcher]

Perhaps try and get rid of the regimes that use jamming as a weapon of mischief.
It is played by both sides, as the main use is against drones , the US and Israel and playing with it as much as Russia. We civilians are just collateral damage.. The price to pay to fly near conflict zones.

[Right20deg]

It is played by both sides, as the main use is against drones , the US and Israel and playing with it as much as Russia. We civilians are just collateral damage.. The price to pay to fly near conflict zones.

You make a very good point. So we are stuck with this .

[oceancrosser]

Bring back NDBs! But in reality, all those Aviation Authorities that have been throwing out the ground based NAVAIDS need to have a rethink.

[CargoOne]

It is not an attack, just a collateral damage. Russia is jamming their borders to protect against the drones. Good thing is that TAY airport still has a functioning ILS (ok may be calibration is out of date) and the tower is still there, you just need to send dispatchers to switch the lights on and provide vectoring. So it can be solved quickly if politicians will decide so, just a matter of money. Finnish eastern airports are in worse position as ILS were either removed or not existed from day one.

[LapSap]

Bring back NDBs! But in reality, all those Aviation Authorities that have been throwing out the ground based NAVAIDS need to have a rethink.

Well i have thought for some time now that the "all-the-eggs-in-one-basket" obsession with doing away with all ground-based aids in favour of "free" GPS/GNSS was going to come back to bite us.

With so many areas of conflict en-route now, a large number of our flights are turning up in the Far East with no ADS-B, unable to accept certain runways with RNP Missed Approach procedures and having to be separated more due lack of other surveillance.

My understanding is once Airbus fleet detect out of tolerance position information, ADS-B is automatically decoupled (or de-latched is a term I've heard used) and cannot be recoupled in flight. Whereas with Boeing types, the system can be manually recoupled once in a stable GNSS reception area.
Can any body comment on the accuracy of that info?

[ATC Watcher]

My understanding is once Airbus fleet detect out of tolerance position information, ADS-B is automatically decoupled (or de-latched is a term I've heard used) and cannot be recoupled in flight. Whereas with Boeing types, the system can be manually recoupled once in a stable GNSS reception area.
Can any body comment on the accuracy of that info?
interesting question , I did not hear that one before , I will add another if I may : on the Boeing 787 avionics are synchronized by the GPS clock signal , and once /jammed/spoofed you cannot reset the clock in flight and you lose many functions including CPDLC for the rest of the flight . Is it the same on the Airbus fleet ?

[601]

Back to the good old days, VAR, VOR, DME, LLZ, ILS and ADF.
Maybe if GPS was designed from the beginning as a navigation system, we would not be having this discussion about jamming.
Same with the WWW.
Using both for things that were never envisaged.

[Jwscud]

LapSap speak to your technical department. There is a lot of work going on behind the scenes at Airbus on this issue with possible resets for certain types, but one can’t just invent a reset procedure without properly testing it so patience is needed.

[Sailvi767]

Well i have thought for some time now that the "all-the-eggs-in-one-basket" obsession with doing away with all ground-based aids in favour of "free" GPS/GNSS was going to come back to bite us.

With so many areas of conflict en-route now, a large number of our flights are turning up in the Far East with no ADS-B, unable to accept certain runways with RNP Missed Approach procedures and having to be separated more due lack of other surveillance.

My understanding is once Airbus fleet detect out of tolerance position information, ADS-B is automatically decoupled (or de-latched is a term I've heard used) and cannot be recoupled in flight. Whereas with Boeing types, the system can be manually recoupled once in a stable GNSS reception area.
Can any body comment on the accuracy of that info?

What you posted matches my experience on the A330.

[Sailvi767]

Back to the good old days, VAR, VOR, DME, LLZ, ILS and ADF.
Maybe if GPS was designed from the beginning as a navigation system, we would not be having this discussion about jamming.
Same with the WWW.
Using both for things that were never envisaged.

GPS will always be highly susceptible to jamming. It’s a very low power system by design. To come up with a more jam resistant system would require far more power out which is simply not possibly with current of envisaged future technology in satellites on the scale needed to provide worldwide coverage.

[Sallyann1234]

I've mentioned above the possibility of using eLORAN as an alternative to GPS, because of its inherent resistance to jamming.
It seems that South Korea is already deploying eLORAN as a defence against GPS spoofing by North Korea. This of course will not assist civil aircraft visiting the area since they will not be suitably equipped to receive it. But other countries are working on the necessary ground systems to deploy eLORAN, and airlines should be looking now at suitable upgrades to their navigation equipment.

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/548298-meanwhile-back-good-ol-nk-136.html#post11669953

[Right20deg]

Punish Ru F with a targeted blow to the site of their equipment. They do not understand don't and please. Hard as nails please. Then novickoc their toilet handles. We will find you and damage you back. Then deny and pour tea.

[639]

Could be helpfull in Future....https://www.advancednavigation.com/tech-articles/the-future-of-inertial-navigation-is-classical-quantum-sensor-fusion

[DaveReidUK]

Punish Ru F with a targeted blow to the site of their equipment. They do not understand don't and please. Hard as nails please. Then novickoc their toilet handles. We will find you and damage you back. Then deny and pour tea.

Conveniently neglecting to specify who ought to inflict said punishment ...

[t211]

Bring back NDBs! But in reality, all those Aviation Authorities that have been throwing out the ground based NAVAIDS need to have a rethink.
IIRC in the day's of tracking up the Southern Corridor of the Berlin from Fulda NDB to TXL It was allways being Jammed someone on my fleet at the time found a localiser aligned of a Track of 052 for 200nm Aprox But that used to get jammed as well

[WideScreen]

Punish Ru F with a targeted blow to the site of their equipment. They do not understand don't and please. Hard as nails please. Then novickoc their toilet handles. We will find you and damage you back. Then deny and pour tea.
Not that difficult.

Western world does have a partner, showing to be very capable to take out militairy objects far away from their country borders, in a desperate need for all and every Western support it can get. And as such quite likely to do an additional hit job to get those extra things awarded as a reward. Western world could even send putti that message openly, one of the very few messages putti understands and respects......

[champair79]

interesting question , I did not hear that one before , I will add another if I may : on the Boeing 787 avionics are synchronized by the GPS clock signal , and once /jammed/spoofed you cannot reset the clock in flight and you lose many functions including CPDLC for the rest of the flight . Is it the same on the Airbus fleet ?

On the Airbus, SOP was to switch the clock to INT (internal) mode before entering a GPS interference area. CPDLC should still work up to 24hrs after this action as the clock remains accurate enough.

I’m on the 777 now and I’ve experienced clock spoofing. It was quite subtle (just a few minutes) and I only picked it up when filing out the nav log. Fortunately, the clock reset to the correct time when out of the interference area. We were not using CPDLC at the time.

[Right20deg]

Not that difficult.

Western world does have a partner, showing to be very capable to take out militairy objects far away from their country borders, in a desperate need for all and every Western support it can get. And as such quite likely to do an additional hit job to get those extra things awarded as a reward. Western world could even send putti that message openly, one of the very few messages putti understands and respects......

We are discretely advised that there is reciprocal action from the west, but it is not announced or acknowledged by the aggressor. I can live with at.

[ATC Watcher]

We must not forget that the large scale Jamming and spoofing encountered since October on a daily basis over the Middle East and East Mediterranean is not coming from "enemies to the West "

[WideScreen]

We must not forget that the large scale Jamming and spoofing encountered since October on a daily basis over the Middle East and East Mediterranean is not coming from "enemies to the West "
Not wanting to go off-topic into the Hamas-Israel "activities" going on, though more and more Western countries explicitly distance themselves (if not formally by the government, at least large parts of the civilians) from the country being the probable source of the spoofing, in the process losing more and more "friends".

[Teddy Robinson]

Good evening.

I have been flying in a certain part of the world, in an advanced, although antiquated aircraft.
This part of the world is a hot spot for jamming / spoofing, and the visual evidence is everywhere.
Both the US and Russia have an interest in the region, as do the local adversaries, so the problem is well know to our crews.

Passing a predictable point, the wind indication moves 180 degrees and increases from 40 to 200 knots with no wind-shear, and against the forecast winds aloft.
Both the IRS and analogue versions of our aircraft throw a fit as there are no ground based aids to rescue them.

This usually comes at a point where we need to turn into seriously uncharted territory in the middle of a sandstorm ... however ....

We both have our route preplanned into our Ipads, and these are STILL displaying an accurate visually checked position, speed and GPS Altitude with a stated accuracy of 6 meters.

All I can say is that it is phonemically accurate, and gives real time downgrades to position accuracy if that occurs.

Granted: you cannot and must not fly an RNP approach into a major airport based solely on this information, what I can say after many years of experience is that works well to acquire an airfield in VFR conditions, or to navigate accurately until the onboard systems can be brought back online,

Fly safe TR.

[remi]

Astro (Star tracking) + INS would take care of navigation as a backup for most flights. I don't think astro would be much of an expense although approval might be a chore.

[Lascaille]

We both have our route preplanned into our Ipads, and these are STILL displaying an accurate visually checked position, speed and GPS Altitude with a stated accuracy of 6 meters.

All I can say is that it is phonemically accurate, and gives real time downgrades to position accuracy if that occurs.

You're saying that the ipads maintain navigation while the aircraft doesn't?

Do you think the ipads are using their galileo/russian-gps receivers and the onboard system is GPS only?

That would be my first guess.

[ATC Watcher]

You're saying that the ipads maintain navigation while the aircraft doesn't?

Do you think the ipads are using their galileo/russian-gps receivers and the onboard system is GPS only?

That would be my first guess.
And your guess is correct . this is the case.

[Nil by mouth]

Flying/navigating using a mobile phone is the norm for Russian fighter pilots because their GPS systems are so bad and outdated.

[Deaf]

Phone stuff is set up for ground not air eg east to west over Termerloh in Malaysia at 4,000 AGL
a/c Garmin spot on
handheld Garmin 72 spot on
Samsung Tablet actual 300m south of track
Motorola ph actual 300m south of track

This was in 2017, all gps was set to lat/long not Malaysian grids (major problem there)

Unable to comment on Ipad

[jez d]

Could be helpfull in Future....https://www.advancednavigation.com/tech-articles/the-future-of-inertial-navigation-is-classical-quantum-sensor-fusion
Airbus has a project running at the moment looking at the use of quantum sensing: New pilot assistance technologies take to the road with Airbus' Optimate demonstrator | Airbus (https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2024-05-new-pilot-assistance-technologies-take-to-the-road-with-airbus)

[Fitter2]

'Quantum sensing' without any explanation sounds good marketing geekspeak. The current largest quantum computer has 1000 qubits. A worm brain has 302 neurons, so IBMs best effort is more capacity than 3 worms. Capable of replacing a manager, but not a pilot :E.

[EEngr]

Flying/navigating using a mobile phone is the norm for Russian fighter pilots because their GPS systems are so bad and outdated.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x360/86849_su34withgpstapedincockpit_viktoralksnisfacebook_35308_ 8fa7001061d0ba4087745b6fa786bb5ec7989305.jpg
A number of stories about Russians duct-taping consumer GPS units in their military aircraft.

We need to stop them from obtaining advanced Western technology. How did they ever get hold of duct-tape?

[steamchicken]

'Quantum sensing' without any explanation sounds good marketing geekspeak. The current largest quantum computer has 1000 qubits. A worm brain has 302 neurons, so IBMs best effort is more capacity than 3 worms. Capable of replacing a manager, but not a pilot :E.

It's not quantum computing - it's something else: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/un-jammable-quantum-tech-takes-flight-to-boost-uks-resilience-against-hostile-actors

[Mr Good Cat]

It's not quantum computing - it's something else: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/un-jammable-quantum-tech-takes-flight-to-boost-uks-resilience-against-hostile-actors

Quantum Sensing 80s TV Style

[Lascaille]

If we're doing Donald P. Bellisario, Airwolf probably had quantum sensors...

[Bandures]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x360/86849_su34withgpstapedincockpit_viktoralksnisfacebook_35308_ 8fa7001061d0ba4087745b6fa786bb5ec7989305.jpg
A number of stories about Russians duct-taping consumer GPS units in their military aircraft.

We need to stop them from obtaining advanced Western technology. How did they ever get hold of duct-tape?

This is most likely a dashcam, based on the form of the unit and placement.

[Out Of Trim]

This is most likely a dashcam, based on the form of the unit and placement.

Nope, that is a Garmin Etrex GPS. I have one very similar!

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1389/img_0799_3a9f9e5c754264e44d5ce7077ef9880be13ecf6f.png

[Typhoon Tripacer]

A number of stories about Russians duct-taping consumer GPS units in their military aircraft.

We need to stop them from obtaining advanced Western technology. How did they ever get hold of duct-tape?

Not much NATO equipment has performed particularly well. Relying on a single photo that I can source back to at least Dec 2021 with a GPS that has been many years in production is not a convincing argument of poor Russian technology.