Glider crash, two killed, Mt beauty

[I spy]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-27/aircraft-crash-mount-beauty-falls-creek-police-ambulance/103776166

[Peter Fanelli]

How many accidents have happened over the years where the purpose of the flight was to scatter someone's ashes?

[biscuit74]

How many accidents have happened over the years where the purpose of the flight was to scatter someone's ashes?

Very few that I have heard of, though I know of several caes where 'loose' ashes have caused distraction and some confusion. It does need careful planning. The fact the accident happened close to the airfield suggests it may not be ash drop related. The machine looks rather like a Grob 109.
Very sad

[B2N2]

How many accidents have happened over the years where the purpose of the flight was to scatter someone's ashes?

Well since you brought it up, how many?

[UV]

Confirmed Grob 109B

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/386969

[Bunyan Wingnut]

Gliding Australia (ASAO) is supporting Victorian Police and Coroner in gathering evidence, inspecting, investigating and analysing. The Grob G109B was VH registered, privately operated, visiting Mount Beauty. Many lines of investigation to be pursued; it is too early to speculate on causal issues. Our focus is also on wellbeing of family, friends, aviation colleagues affected by this crash.

[cirrus32]

This one hits hard. Was watching the aircraft last weekend flown by other members of the syndicate at its home airfield.

[sablatnic]

How many accidents have happened over the years where the purpose of the flight was to scatter someone's ashes?

We aren't counting Trevor you know who here, are we?

[ATC Watcher]

A G109 is not a glider ( re title) and not so simple to fly , we had one in our club, many incidents / accidents ( minor) with it.
I wonder if the experienced pilot was having it on this type .

[deeceethree]

Forgive me for raising the point, but I do feel it needs raising. The title of this thread, "Glider crash, two killed, Mt beauty", isn't helpful to many (most?) readers, because it refers to a location they won't ever have heard of. The thread is also in a section of PPRuNe that is not geographically specific, so there are no first-glance clues as to where this accident occurred. Surely it would be helpful to others if the author added a country, and perhaps a state in the thread title?

Seeing the country included in a thread title, of this nature, would certainly help readers direct their attention to threads of particular interest. If there isn't enough room to include state and country in a title, perhaps confine the specific "Mt beauty" location to the opening line of a post. For example, a title of 'Glider accident Victoria, Australia; 2 fatalities' quickly guides those who wish to read further, with the precise location better kept for the the opening post itself?

Whilst not applicable to this thread, it is similar to threads that announce themselves as, for example, 'Aircraft Accident today at Big Airport'. The use of the word 'today' is meaningless, once the calendar moves on. Better to use the specific date, so that if the thread is still active, even months or years later, readers can quickly and easily see, from the thread title, whether it is today, recent, or quite some time ago. I will add that, due to the way North America tends to format dates, it is far less confusing if writers use the name of the month, rather than the number of the month e.g. '10th May 1979' or 'May 10th 1979' are far quicker to mentally process. However, written as '10/05/1979' or '05/10/1979', things just get confusing.

Just to be clear, I mean no disrespect to the people closely involved in the tragic event highlighted by this thread, but contributors shouldn't forget that it is a world-wide forum, and how they write can be just as important as the subject they write about.


EDIT: As it turns out, there is a duplicate thread in The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions section.

[RickNRoll]

A G109 is not a glider ( re title) and not so simple to fly , we had one in our club, many incidents / accidents ( minor) with it.
I wonder if the experienced pilot was having it on this type .
They seem to have a few fatalities. https://aviation-safety.net/asndb/type/G109

[sablatnic]

They seem to have a few fatalities. https://aviation-safety.net/asndb/type/G109

Yes, and people are still killed in mid airs, by colliding with trees or by stalling when showing off. Take a look at the reports.

[EXDAC]

A G109 is not a glider ( re title)

The Grob 109 is a two seat self launching motor glider.

[biscuit74]

A G109 is not a glider ( re title) and not so simple to fly , we had one in our club, many incidents / accidents ( minor) with it.
I wonder if the experienced pilot was having it on this type .

Interesting. I have had a share in a Grob 109B motor glider for years. I like it a lot and find it easier and more capable than several other motor gliders I've used and owned. It does need thoughtful operation, of course.

Apart from normal maintenance issues like brake fade and brake leaks from one side in particular, we have had few 'incidents' and so far (touch wood) no accidents. We are all current glider pilots as well as power pilots, which helps, and are well aware of the challenges which go with motor glider ops - low climb rates etc. Admittedly this is syndicate use, not club. There are simpler, perhaps more robust, lower performance motor gliders arguably more suitable for club use.

What problems have your club had? Always useful to find out from others rather than make all the errors ourselvses !

[ATC Watcher]

The Grob 109 is a two seat self launching motor glider.
no , the G109 is a motor glider , or TMG in EASA speak ,which needs a special TMG licence , more like a PPL , it is not a self launching glider which you fly with a glider licence ( SPL) and a self launch endorsement .

@ biscuit74 : The main issue with it in our club use was the variable pitch prop combined with an underpowered heavy aircraft and some people only flying it a couple of hours a year. Most hiccups were on go around or even attempting taking off on wrong prop settings.also the small wheel base added up . Not really a club aircraft . We sold it to the UK which seems to like them 😏

.

[EXDAC]

no , the G109 is a motor glider , or TMG in EASA speak ,which needs a special TMG licence , more like a PPL , it is not a self launching glider which you fly with a glider licence ( SPL) and a self launch endorsement ..

That may be true in UK, or under EASA rules, but it is not true in USA. I do not know the rules in Australia which is where the accident you are commenting on happened. I have flown several self launching motor gliders on my FAA glider rating with no endorsement required since I am grandfathered, just as I need no tailwheel endorsement to fly my tailwheel aircraft. TMG means nothing in USA. Does it in Australia?

If you want to dig a bit deeper into FAA rules, one self launching motor glider I flew needed a type rating! It was turbo jet powered.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1667x857/grob_109_3177379ee57716f15220b010799e243a33e50562.png

[Bunyan Wingnut]

"Two-Seater Motor Glider Accident, Mount Beauty, Victoria, Australia, Sat 27 April 2024" would have been a better heading.
Grob G109B motor glider accident. Very experienced pilot, extensive gliding and touring motor glider background. Qualified instructor. In Australia, gliders and motor gliders are on CASA National Aircraft Register, and operated and maintained to approved standards. Gliding Australia is Part 149 Approved Self-Administering Aviation Organisation. Glider pilot training is provided against approved syllabi by Gliding Australia instructors. Flying a TMG requires specific training syllabus and qualifications endorsed.
Investigation is continuing, Gliding Australia supporting police and coroner.
Male pilot and female passenger killed. Flight was to scatter ashes of passenger's father, pilot's close friend, over Mount Beauty airport in Victorian high country.
Accidents like this hit the gliding and regional aviation community hard. Our first thoughts are with the family, friends, gliding club members and aviation colleagues, affected communities. Most tragic circumstances, so be considerate of the wellbeing of people who might read this stuff.
Yes, we want to better understand causes and risk factors. Keep an eye on the Gliding Australia FB page and website.

[340drvr]

Wondering how ashes would be released, the 109B has gull wing doors, can't imagine they're approved for opening during flight.
Sad story, RIP.

[ATC Watcher]

@EXDAC : thanks for your explanations on FAA licensing , fits your country motto “ land of the free and home of the brave “:E I only wish EASA would ease up their licences endorsements !
for me it is your definition of s “self launching motor glider “ is what puzzled me , it is an anachronism : a motorglider would automatically self launch , a glider not necessarily hence the difference . Also very different in handling both
expecting a pure glider pilot to handle a heavy and underpowered ( almost all are ) motorglider with a viable pitch prop is not really advisable hence 2 different training syllabus and licence in Europe .
i have no idea how it is spit in Australia either .

@Bunyan Wingnut: sorry for your loss .indeed let’s wait to hear the reasons . No trying in any way to try to apportion blame on the pilot . **** happens sometimes, we all know that ,

[mjh FE]

T-O from rwy 14 looks quite interesting for Grob 109 and not so good climb performance. Was the accident on T-O or approach of level flight?
-M-

[EXDAC]

a motorglider would automatically self launch , a glider not necessarily hence the difference .

Simply not true. Many motor gliders are not capable of self launch. Do some research on "sustainer". Self launching motor glider is a sub category of motor glider.

[Tom K L]

Wondering how ashes would be released, the 109B has gull wing doors, can't imagine they're approved for opening during flight.
Sad story, RIP.


I believe this was a G109 the earlier one and they are the standard clearview panels

[ATC Watcher]

Simply not true. Many motor gliders are not capable of self launch. Do some research on "sustainer". Self launching motor glider is a sub category of motor glider.
i think it is a terminology issue between US and europe a mix up what we call “Turbo” with “”self launching only used to qualify gliders. . In Europe a motorglider is more like a single engine aircraft ,and absolutely all can take off on their own .
You and I leaned something .

[mjh FE]

There are gliders and TMG's in europe. TMG (Touring Motor Glider) is kind on in between a real aeroplane and a glider with the worst of both worlds combined (half sarcastic). Gliders then are gliders, either pure gliders with no propulsion other than gravity. Some are equipped with sustainer engines (piston, electrical, jet) and are not capable of independent take-off. Sustainer is supposed to bring You home instead of landing out. Then there are self-launching gliders with usually retractable propulsion system, again piston or electric. Some TMG's are capable of real soaring flight, most are not even though manufacturers boast otherwise, the glider performance is just horrible, so they are really only underpowered airplanes. Whit not enough training. Dimona and Stemme being most capable TMG,s. Gliders with retractable powertrain are usually really good gliders also.

-M-

[segfault]

T-O from rwy 14 looks quite interesting for Grob 109 and not so good climb performance. Was the accident on T-O or approach of level flight?
-M-
I did my paraglider training out of Mt Beauty. Throughout the course sailplanes were cable launched to the north and landed to the south. The map doesn't make it particularly clear that the lake on the south side is elevated above the level of the runway with a high embankment, with trees on top of the embankment, so nobody wants to fly in that direction.

[megan]

Grob the manufacturer simply calls it a "motor glider".

[krohmie]

If I hear to "scatter the ashes" I think this will be very problematic in a G109.

It is not possible to open the gullwing type doors in flight or to fly the airplane without doors because you lose the airflow on the T-tail elevator.

So you can only use the the small sail plane like ventilation windows in the plexiglas doors.

Edit: There are some starting accidents with G109b and not correct closed doors.