3 Engine ferry flights with piston/ turboprop aircraft ?

[stilton]

3 or 2 engine ferry flights have been certified and permitted for aircraft such as the 747 and L1011

Were 4 engine piston aircraft like the DC 6 or turboprops like the Britannia permitted to do 3 engine ferry flights ?

[Meikleour]

Vanguard/ VC9 allowed this. I conducted one BHX/LHR in 1974!

[ex-EGLL]

I remember a Cubana Brit coming into EGGW in 1973 from points east, something looked "odd" about it on approach and landing, it was only as it turned onto the apron it was obvious what was "odd". It only had 3 props!. It had dropped into EGGW to pick up a new one!!

[megan]

Were 4 engine piston aircraft like the DC 6 or turboprops like the Brittannia permitted to do 3 engine ferry flightsThree engine ferry flights? Good lord, the Strats and Connies used to do three engine pax flights :p Failure rate and precautionary shut downs being prevalent.

Apparently three engine ferries were permitted, maybe depend on country, quote from report into a Super Constellation in Puerto Rico Apr 5, 1990 Elsewhere a flight engineer on Connies said three engine ferries were standard practice to get to an engineering facility.. The captain of the airplane elected to take off on a three engine ferry flight without authorization. During the three engine climb out with the n°3 propeller feathered, the n°2 engine caught fire and he could not extinguish the fire. He attempted to return and during the descent the n°1 engine failed. He then intentionally ditched the airplane in the ocean, and received fatal injuries. The airplane was not recovered from the ocean and no determination of cause could be ascertained.

Probable cause:
Fire of an undetermined origin that resulted in a loss of power in two engines during a three engine ferry flight. Factors related to the accident were: failure of the pilot to obtain the required authorization for the three engine ferry flight, and his operation of the aircraft with known deficiencies.

[tonytales]

The DC-4./6 and 7 and the Connies, L-049 to L-1649 all performed 3 engine ferries. First time I prepped an L-1049 for 3 engine ferry I was handed a hollowed-out spark plug with a length of clothesline threaded through it. Small knot at end sticking out.
What use? Remove a spark plug, put cylinder on Bottom Dead Center (BDC). Insert plug and feed clothesline into cylinder. Stuff in as much as you could.
Why. Prop was in feather for ferry flight. However, Ham Standard props could be caused to rotate by sideslips of aircraft. Governo. if it managed to get up a bit of a spin would take prop out of feather and start it rotating. You could use feather button to cage it but how many times?
Clothesline packed in a cylinder provided a soft cushion to prevent rotation.
Later, Ham Std fitter feather locks on prop domes to stop this.
Can't remember what we did on the Bristol Battleship, Britannia I mean but we certainly ferried a lot back to Mexico City after compressors corncobbed by "Bump Stalls".
Never prepped an Electra for ferry but we did put fan blade locks on JT3D engines for ferry prep. Long time ago now.

[stilton]

The DC-4./6 and 7 and the Connies, L-049 to L-1649 all performed 3 engine ferries. First time I prepped an L-1049 for 3 engine ferry I was handed a hollowed-out spark plug with a length of clothesline threaded through it. Small knot at end sticking out.
What use? Remove a spark plug, put cylinder on Bottom Dead Center (BDC). Insert plug and feed clothesline into cylinder. Stuff in as much as you could.
Why. Prop was in feather for ferry flight. However, Ham Standard props could be caused to rotate by sideslips of aircraft. Governo. if it managed to get up a bit of a spin would take prop out of feather and start it rotating. You could use feather button to cage it but how many times?
Clothesline packed in a cylinder provided a soft cushion to prevent rotation.
Later, Ham Std fitter feather locks on prop domes to stop this.
Can't remember what we did on the Bristol Battleship, Britannia I mean but we certainly ferried a lot back to Mexico City after compressors corncobbed by "Bump Stalls".
Never prepped an Electra for ferry but we did put fan blade locks on JT3D engines for ferry prep. Long time ago now.



Fascinating

Who was the Britannia operator in Mexico City ?

[nina wang]

Allowed on the Viscount (VC8)

[SASKATOON9999]

Circa 1993, my company at the time operated a mixed fleet of L188 Electra's, split between the UK and Irish register. I vaguely recall that 3 eng ferry's were only approved on the Irish registered units.

[deltahotel]

Did one on the C130

[condor17]

Even allowed a 2 1/2 engine ferry flight on a 3 1/2 engined a/c ... HS Trident 3b MAN-LHR .. worked ok and I have the tie . We had to look at the local 1:50,000 Ordanance Survey map to find an escape route down the SW valley if we lost another on t/o from Rwy 24 .
Boost engine had to be operating , and thus T2s and T1s did not do these ferry flights .

rgds condor .

[WHBM]

Fascinating

Who was the Britannia operator in Mexico City ?
I presume Aeronaves de Mexico. They had a couple between 1957 and 1965 and did a daily round trip from Mexico City to New York, where I believe the poster was based.

[dixi188]

Did a 3 engine ferry with Channex on an N reg Electra. Starter motor removed and a blank fitted that stopped the gearbox and prop rotating.

[DaveReidUK]

Allowed on the Viscount (VC8)

Yes, I watched from the tower once as a BMA Viscount departed EDI on 3 engines.

Well I'm assuming the 4th wasn't operating as it didn't have a prop attached. :O

[TCAS FAN]

Add CL-44 to the list, saw a number of TMAC’s do in 1980s to get back from MCT to STN.

[CV880]

I recall Cargolux 3 engine ferrying 1 or 2 CL44J's into Kai Tak after suffering damage elsewhere. One had a prop get tangled up with some ground equipment in India if my memory is correct, so prop removed and ferried to HKG for repairs. The other was a Tyne major failure and fire that damaged the nacelle needing extensive repairs. Not sure where that happened.
Strangest one I heard about was our factory reps wife swore she saw a 3-engined DC8 landing at Long Beach ie. only 3 engines installed. Husband said no way but the next day found a US major's JT4 powered DC8 on the ramp with no #1 engine installed. Turned out it had experienced a violent seizure of No 1 engine in flight and after removal of the failed engine they found the pylon was twisted and a replacement engine could not be installed. Douglas crew ferried it to Long Beach for a pylon repair/replacement. Factory rep had to apologise to wife.

[dixi188]

ISTR there was a CV990 crash in Sweden when doing a 3 engine ferry. Swissair/Balair?

[WHBM]

ISTR there was a CV990 crash in Sweden when doing a 3 engine ferry. Swissair/Balair?
Also an Eastern L1011 had an engine go u/s at Mexico City, so they prepared for a 2-engine ferry back to Miami base. Mexico City of course at 6,000ft altitude. On liftoff a second engine failed, crew just managed to get it back. TWO replacement engines then shipped down to Mexico on a Hercules !

[dixi188]

ISTR there was a CV990 crash in Sweden when doing a 3 engine ferry. Swissair/Balair?
Sorry, it was Spantax at Stockholm.

[WHBM]

Sorry, it was Spantax at Stockholm.
Although it was indeed Spantax their heavy Convair 990 maintenance was done by Swissair, who they bought the fleet from, and the accident aircraft with a failed engine was ferrying Stockholm to Zurich.

[tonytales]

Aeronaves de Mexico was the operator of two Model 302 Britannias. These were four tank airplanes. Lockheed Air Service handled their maintenance requirements on their overnights at KJFK. Most interesting aircraft I ever worked, so different from U.S. types.

[safetypee]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/_0052486_bc3fd051072008fdc9b3818168ce58cc4efbb96d.jpeg

[dixi188]

Take another one off and change the others to a pair of RR Tays and I'm sure they could have sold many more.

[tonytales]

Thinking more on three engine ferries, we had a DC-51 (ex-Trans Carribean) that made, some years apart, three engined ferries JFK to MIA. Literally 3 engines. The first was a crosswind landing resulting in dragging the nbr. 4 which came off. and was left behind. Pylon stayed on but was deformed. The pylon was removed before the ferry.
Some years later I was called to take the binoculars and go with the airport fire chief to a runway and observe a low fly-past of the sane aircraft. The right main landing gear was not locking down. Sure enough, I could see the RMLG was swaying inboard as he gave a little bank.
They set up for an emergency landing and called in the NY City Fire Department to back up the JFK crash trucks. I stayed with the Port Authority fire chief in his car. Crash truck at every taxiway down the runway, city providing backup. The chief and I were at the approach end and as the DC-8 flew over raced down the runway after t. Smooth landing in a stiff crosswind and the DC-8 rolled for a distance and then the RMG walked in and nbr. 4 engine started dragging, sparking, flames. A/C came to a stop and nbr. 4 engine disappeared under a mountain of foam.
Long story about the emergency chutes on port side all blowing under the fuselage.
After we offloaded the pax via mobile steps we jacked the aircraft up. The pinion in the RMLG that the actuator attached to had come out. The big actuator with no load had sent a shock wave thru the gear hydraulics and the little downlock cylinder had inflated into a perfectly round bal. This shortened the stroke so gear wouldn't lock down.
After a gear change and removal of nbr. 4 and its pylon she ferried on 3 engines to MIA. How many aircraft can boast of that?

[gopher01]

C 130 Heavy oil leak No 3 at Nairobi requiring ECU change. Told no room at Nairobi to do it OAU meeting of P.Ms get off our airport.3 engine ferry orgsnised to Mombasa with 4 engine take off for WAT limits, shut down no 3 after takeoff and proceed to Mombasa.
Aircraft was a trainer so apart from basic crew plus G.E
( me ), all others travelled to Mombasa by train, quite an experience I was told. ECU changed and route resumed.

[Flap Sup]

DH7 done many times in my company, also from 800m rwys. I never did it, but remember that there was a lot of preperation for a 3eng ferry. The DH7 didnt perform well at altitude, even with all four engines running, so during a 3eng ferry, we would be more challenged with icing conditions than loosing a second engine...

[ShyTorque]

I once had to fly a Puma helicopter on one engine from an offshore island (Caye Capel, Belize) after the other one refused to start. We needed the permission of the Air Officer Commanding to do it. Bearing in mind that he was supposed to have been the senior passenger and would otherwise have been stranded, that was immediately forthcoming. We flew back, changed aircraft, returned to fetch him and his entourage.

[Spiney Norman]

Cubana Bristol Britannia occasionally ferried into Luton for attention by Monarch (AEL). There was at least one flight direct from Havana on 3 engines! The U/s Proteus had the prop removed and a natty temporary fairing placed over the front of the cowling. I’m afraid I don’t have any photos but those of us in ATC were most surprised when it materialised out of the murk in that condition!

[ancientaviator62]

According to my log book we did a three engine ferry on the C130K from Seeb to Akrotiri (8.35) . The us engine was changed at Akrotiri and during the climb out started leaking oil ! Back to Akrotiri to await a new engine from UK. I once authorised a three engine ferry from Mogadishu to Mombasa but that's another story !

[tdracer]

No idea what the cargo aircraft in question was, but during the US involvement in Viet Nam, I remember hearing stories of a particular USAF cargo aircraft - piston engine powered - that had such a horrid engine MTBF that losing an engine somewhere on the trip from Hawaii to Vietnam was not uncommon. Since the US airbases were a regular target of rocket and mortar attacks, the crews would rather risk a 3-engine departure from South Viet Nam rather than having to stay there long enough to perform and engine change...

[WHBM]

No idea what the cargo aircraft in question was, but during the US involvement in Viet Nam, I remember hearing stories of a particular USAF cargo aircraft - piston engine powered - that had such a horrid engine MTBF that losing an engine somewhere on the trip from Hawaii to Vietnam was not uncommon. Since the US airbases were a regular target of rocket and mortar attacks, the crews would rather risk a 3-engine departure from South Viet Nam rather than having to stay there long enough to perform and engine change...
Probably the Lockheed Constellations operated by various civilian supplemental airlines, in addition to the military, at that time. The Wright Turbo-Compound engines were never really got to grips with.

[john_tullamarine]

#21. Perhaps the inspiration for Ken Maynard's old Ettamogah Pub cartoon with the punchline "yer right, Taffy, that engine IS missing". If I can find it, I'll post it.

[BSD]

I flew the CL44 with Transmeridian. In the 1000 or so hours I flew it, t flew 4 engine out ferries. Kano to Stansted, Taif to Stansted, Mineralnye Vody to Karachi and Lubumbashi to Kinshasa.

On our six monthly checks (always on the aeroplane, no simulator) the Captain’s check always involved a 3 engine take-off.

I seem to recall it went like this: the rudder trim was pre-set 2/3rds towards the “good” side, the aileron trim 1/3rd. To start the task-off, the F/E would wind up the “matched pair” to full power, then when he was satisfied, the Captain (always a Captain’s take-off) released the parking brake and opened up the 3rd throttle, increasing power carefully so as not to lose directional control.

I can’t remember what we did for V speeds or how we thought about the further loss of an engine, en-route terrain clearance etc, but I do recall the max take-off weight was 165000 lbs - coincidentally the max landing weight. The crosswind limit was also reduced. Other stuff: operating crew only, no revenue freight etc.

At that weight, some 50,000 lbs below max all up weight, the old thing flew pretty well. In fact, as you were down around 20% on fuel flow and only 10% down on true airspeed, the “air nautical miles per gallon” increased. It could go a blooming long way on 3!

It was also not uncommon on some range limited flights to get airborne on 4 engines, climb to the 3 engine cruise altitude and shut one down. Our CAA flight ops inspector had a pink fit when he found out as he was concerned if the engine needed to be relit there was a chance the prop might overspeed. The company chief F/E reckoned that was rubbish, as the 44’s Tyne had so many protection devices on the prop. Result: CAA 1, TMAC O. The process was discontinued.

I do recall though, being in Cairo, sometime around 1976/7, when a 747 (Can’t remember if it was TWA or Pan Am) was flown out on 3 engines. I’m pretty sure it was flown out by a Boeing crew.

Also, a tragic event in Jeddah one night when a Lear jet (35?) attempted a single engine take-off as one starter mother was U/S. The pilot’s intention to windmill start the other engine when airborne. He was also attempting it single pilot, which at least spared the co-pilot and or passengers when it all went wrong.

All a very long time ago and thankfully, I suspect, engine out ferries are a thing of the past!

Cheers,

[tdracer]

Also, a tragic event in Jeddah one night when a Lear jet (35?) attempted a single engine take-off as one starter mother was U/S. The pilot’s intention to windmill start the other engine when airborne. He was also attempting it single pilot, which at least spared the co-pilot and or passengers when it all went wrong.
Cheers,
There was an invent in Portland, Oregon perhaps 25 years ago - twin engine biz jet (don't recall type) that couldn't get an engine started, so they tried to do a windmill light on the ground during a takeoff roll. :eek:
That didn't end well either, although I think the pilots survived (but not the aircraft).

[galaxy flyer]

There was an invent in Portland, Oregon perhaps 25 years ago - twin engine biz jet (don't recall type) that couldn't get an engine started, so they tried to do a windmill light on the ground during a takeoff roll. :eek:
That didn't end well either, although I think the pilots survived (but not the aircraft).

Now I know why the IS-BAO SMS protocols require an Ops Manual statement to the effect of, “no single engine take-offs”.

[galaxy flyer]

Also an Eastern L1011 had an engine go u/s at Mexico City, so they prepared for a 2-engine ferry back to Miami base. Mexico City of course at 6,000ft altitude. On liftoff a second engine failed, crew just managed to get it back. TWO replacement engines then shipped down to Mexico on a Hercules !


During my time at EAL, I hear that story a couple of times.

[jimxty]

Small world-I used to fly CL 44s for Wrangler Aviation (one of them was an ex TM bird). In my 7 years there I did about 4 three engine takeoffs and ferry flights. On three it would fly about 2000 feet lower and about 10-15 knots slower. On a US certificate were were limited to no freight and no passengers. FWIW-it flew a lot better with about 10,000 pounds of "ballast" on the airplane.
As BSD stated all training was done in the aircraft-three engine stall does at night will get your attention, but again with no cargo on board the airplane was almost overpowered.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I did a 3 engine ferry on a DC 6 firebomber once after an inflight shut down due to a spun blower seal. The seal failed right at lift off from a shortish dirt strip of course. :uhoh:.
The engineer had a 3 engine prep checklist and the company applied for a ferry permit. Takeoff procedure was full wet power on the 2 symmetrical engines holding the brakes and them feed in the remaining engine as the airplane accelerated and the rudder became effective. In practice not a big deal and we had the benefit of a cross wind from the "right" direction.

Company had a fully built up QEC with prop and tin on always ready to go . We rolled up to the company hangar at 0800 and they had the new engine hung by 11:00 It took longer to do the paper work and runup checks than it did to re and re the engine. We took off for our base fully serviceable at 16:00. It was fun to watch the guys at work.

[megan]

I remember hearing stories of a particular USAF cargo aircraft - piston engine powered - that had such a horrid engine MTBF that losing an engine somewhere on the trip from Hawaii to Vietnam was not uncommon. Since the US airbases were a regular target of rocket and mortar attacks, the crews would rather risk a 3-engine departure from South Viet Nam rather than having to stay there long enough to perform and engine change...That would be the C-124 td, used extensively during the conflict transporting stuff from the US to Vietnam. 97 hours flight time from Travis AFB, California, to Tan Son Nhut AB, South Vietnam, and back, so it's retirement from Military Airlift Command in 1970 and replacement with jets was welcome.

[4Screwaircrew]

I never did a live 3 engine ferry but as an L188 Electra Captain did a practice one on every proficiency check, both on the N reg and G.

[BSD]

Jimxty - blooming ‘eck! It might be more difficult to find 44 pilot who hasn’t logged a 3-engined ferry!

So, if Transmeridian had 7 (I think it was 7, plus the Guppy) and one of them went to Wrangler, there’s a goodly chance we’ve 3-engine ferried the same aeroplane.

Happy new year!

[ea200]

Apologies for the thread drift, but what about single engine ferries on twins. Many years ago I popped into the tower at a French airfield to sort my paperwork and found all three occupants with their noses to the window. Invited myself behind the desk and saw a British registered twin turboprop lined up with only one turning (HS748 if I remember correctly). Duly departed successfully. Diversion recovery I suspect as unlikely to have been there otherwise.

[jimxty]

"It might be more difficult to find 44 pilot who hasn’t logged a 3-engined ferry!"


We shut a lot of them down in flight as well. The airplane performs astonishingly well on three engines.

[NRU74]

Also slight thread drift
We were on a Beverley and flying from Lagos to Lubumbashi via a fuel stop in Douala. Unfortunately in Douala the number three wouldn't start as the starter motor was unserviceable. We'd been in Lagos for about eight days with an engine out about 100 nm N of Lagos, and the boss, the Wg Cdr, was determined to press on. The French speaking Air Trafficker wasn't good on English and my French wasn't too good either. I explained that we'd windmill the engine and try and start it ( wasn't it 'moulins à vent' ?)on the roll and if it wouldn't start we'd taxy back and shut down.
Fortunately the number 3 started and we set off for the Congo ! - we were stuck for a few days in the Congo waiting for a new starter motor.

[dixi188]

Did an accelerate-stop to windmill start one engine on an Electra at EDI due to US starter. IIRC start to unfeather at 40 kts and stabilised idle by 80 kts. then stop and taxi back to the begining of the runway.
Also did a Buddy Start at CGN with us as the lead aircraft and the one with the US starter close behind. I think it took a while to explain to the tower what was wanted. Both aircraft stationary on the taxiway and we ran one engine up to high power to windmill start the one behind.