Example Rosters (Jet2,Tui, WhizzAir, etc)

[apin]

Hello guys + gals,

I'm currently a military pilot, looking to make the transition to Airlines. I've done what research I can across the internet, but I'm finding any references to rosters quite vague - for example:

Jet2 - 'Random Roster'
TUI - 'Variable Pattern'
RyanAir - '5 on, 4 off'
WhizzAir - 'flexible and fixed roster patterns: 5/4, 14/7, 15/15, reverse and others'

It's really not much to go on when deciding to change careers, as there isn't any detail as to 'typical' flying days - are they max crew duty, lots of unsociable hours, lots of flights from non-home hubs?

I'm hoping with the help of you individuals posting anonymous, old rosters, that this could become a useful thread for pilots to reference when looking at prospective employers, to get a bit of 'warts and all' detail to see if it's a good fit for the individual.

Thank you for your help!

[nickler]

any detail as to 'typical' flying days - are they max crew duty, lots of unsociable hours, lots of flights from non-home hubs?



Yes.

Even if You fly from home expect up to 6 days waking up at 3.30am with mostly 4 sectors day or up to 6 days with late start times but getting home at midnight at best.
That’s Low Cost life in Europe.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Yes.

Even if You fly from home expect up to 6 days waking up at 3.30am with mostly 4 sectors day or up to 6 days with late start times but getting home at midnight at best.
That’s Low Cost life in Europe.

Only if you work for a rubbish airline. My november 'random roster' is:
Starts off with 5 duty days, a mixture of mid to long 2 sector days, three days flying.
then the rest of the month is two to three days off and then a 4 day run of home standbys, repeat, I dont expect to get called on the standbys this time of year but sickness levels seem higher than normal at the moment so maybe once or twice over the three weeks

Out of the airlines you posted, Jet2 is the best of the bunch.

[apin]

Yes.

Even if You fly from home expect up to 6 days waking up at 3.30am with mostly 4 sectors day or up to 6 days with late start times but getting home at midnight at best.
That’s Low Cost life in Europe.

Which airlines in particular are you referring to here?

Only if you work for a rubbish airline. My november 'random roster' is:
Starts off with 5 duty days, a mixture of mid to long 2 sector days, three days flying.
then the rest of the month is two to three days off and then a 4 day run of home standbys, repeat, I dont expect to get called on the standbys this time of year but sickness levels seem higher than normal at the moment so maybe once or twice over the three weeks

Out of the airlines you posted, Jet2 is the best of the bunch.

That is good to hear - I'm favouring Jet2 at the moment just from hearing generally 'good vibes' from people. Given my pick it would be Jet2 followed by TUI.

[HidekiTojo]

Only if you work for a rubbish airline. My november 'random roster' is:
Starts off with 5 duty days, a mixture of mid to long 2 sector days, three days flying.
then the rest of the month is two to three days off and then a 4 day run of home standbys, repeat, I dont expect to get called on the standbys this time of year but sickness levels seem higher than normal at the moment so maybe once or twice over the three weeks

Out of the airlines you posted, Jet2 is the best of the bunch.


Hahah yes every month in the 737 short haul bucket and spade world is like November!! Classic!

A fixed pattern roster for a scheduled operator is much better than a variable or random or whatever weekend destroying, fatigue blasting version you can think of.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Hahah yes every month in the 737 short haul bucket and spade world is like November!! Classic!

A fixed pattern roster for a scheduled operator is much better than a variable or random or whatever weekend destroying, fatigue blasting version you can think of.

I have flown 360 hours in 2023, probably looking at 400 for the year, super fatiguing... Fixed pattern 5/4 is the greatest scam that European pilots ever fell for, you can keep it

[SpamCanDriver]

I have flown 360 hours in 2023, probably looking at 400 for the year, super fatiguing... Fixed pattern 5/4 is the greatest scam that European pilots ever fell for, you can keep it

I believe you're on the 757 though, so not typical for the majority.
I'm a new joiner left seat on the baby boeing, been averaging 70hrs month, Nov & Dec are significantly less though.
Overall has been far better than the permanent fatigue of longhaul in the sandpit, with the caveat that I haven't done a proper summer here yet.

[VariablePitchP]

I have flown 360 hours in 2023, probably looking at 400 for the year, super fatiguing... Fixed pattern 5/4 is the greatest scam that European pilots ever fell for, you can keep it

:ugh::ugh:

Need to mention the fleet you’re on, afraid that’s as useful as someone on a 50% contract telling OP how many days off they get without mentioning that minor detail…

OP, expect to get firehosed in summer at J2, it was the summer rosters that stopped me applying. Nearly projectile vomited all over my mates iPad when he showed me them. 95+ a month, taxis around the network and months without weekends off. 3am finishes into 4pm reports. Yuck.

That said, by definition of your logbook by this point in the year, winter has to be a lot calmer. Still standbys scattered about but a lot less flying. Days in uniform vs salary is pretty amazing at J2 over winter.

TUI you’ve got to contend with their nonsense part time contract, would probably give it a miss just for that, the TR payments etc etc.

Ezy/RYR just as busy and as people have said, fixed pattern doesn’t mean it’s necessarily less tiring. Expect shorter sectors so less helpful having the 900 hour rule helping you out over winter. However, you can plan your life years into the future. That might be the silver bullet for you lifestyle wise.

J2 evidently treat their staff better than some places, just be warned that there’s a slightly odd fetishisation from some on here about how utopian it is there. It’s a low cost airline, not oxfam, they exist to get every penny of profit they can from you.

Use the old Cranwellian (or boat/stable equivalent) network to get some rosters from mates you’ve got there to take a look. And get the full year. Just a handful of November rosters would be meaningless to you.

[Jonty]

Re Jet2, I'm not on the 75 and averaged 8 flights month during the summer. 2 a week. Ive always flown random pattern rosters (25 years), but can't see how fixed pattern rosters can be any less fatiguing. Ive never done more than 4 earlies in a row, and never more than 3 deep nights. When I started flying we used to check in for a turkey flight at 9pm, get back about 7 or 8am. How about Zante checking in at 11pm? That was a deep night! Fortunately those days seem to have gone.
Let's be honest, at Jet2, in the summer you are going to work hard. In the winter not so much. TUI will be the same, although on a part time contract. But you can make a fortune on overtime that Jet2 doesn't offer. Easy, Ryan, and Wizz will be fairly steady all year. Out of those 3, Easy has the best overall terms and conditions going by various conversations Ive had.
Time to command? Jet2 would be about 2 years, it takes that long to get through the system if you already have the hours and you're not DEC. Ryan and Wizz would be quick I think. TUI, probably quite a while, maybe 7 years (still part time when you get promoted, but don't forget the overtime) depending on future retirements and fleet growth.
If im honest I wouldn't touch wizz with a barge pole. Ryan Air would be next to last on my list, then it's a tossup between TUI and Easy. Not sure TUIs level of bullish*t would suit my temperament, and Easy Jets basic pay is a bit sh*t.
If you're ex RAF Jet2 will seem like a home from home, but the overall package probably isn't as good as somewhere like TUI. Also, if you want long haul, while there's rumours, I wouldn't expect that anytime soon. You may see A330s appear, but they will be doing Dalaman, Palma, and Faro. But then again, this is Jet2 and who knows!
Just to add, out of the airlines I've mentioned, I've only worked for Jet2, my comments regarding the others are just from what I hear having conversations with friends who work there.

[GA F15]

I believe Whitemonk is on the 757, so not a true reflection on how much the average jet2 pilot works (Far from it!)

[excrab]

To be fair, I flew the 737 for J2 for eight years, and never more than 700 hours per year, most years less.

The big problem isn’t the number of hours you fly, but how they’re flown. At any base some people will fly 100 hours a month and others in the same seat and type will fly 50. There seemed to be no rhyme or reason to it. You can’t get requested days off less than three months ahead and in the summer non are available, and if you have kids, in my experience you’ll only get leave in the summer holidays once every three years, and even then you’re only allowed nine days of leave between May and October. If as a captain you are “selected” to fly to cat C airfields (you aren’t given a choice) you will work every weekend in the winter, because that’s when the ski flights happen, and you won’t earn any extra, in fact less as you find yourself on Cat C standbys instead of earning flight and sector pay like non Cat C trained pilots.
Dont get me wrong, it wasn’t a bad place to work. Crewing / management and training are generally helpful as far as they can be, and engineering is excellent, on the 738 st least it was rare to be carrying defects. But it’s not Wonderful. Unfortunately all the other UK airlines I worked for are no longer in existence, so I can’t really compare it. But like most places, some are better, some are worse.

[Jonty]

Is there anywhere “wonderful” anymore?

Think those days are long gone, part time is the future.

[Basicsteve]

It’s all personal choice , I think best job in the UK would be very senior TUI captain at a regional base .
Jet2 skipper close to home at regional base is a good second.

[Stone Cold II]

J2 evidently treat their staff better than some places.

Not so sure on that. Recently at my regional base a serious accident happened that blocked the road from the crew rooms to the staff car parks. We were all stuck in the airport till 3am. EZY told the crews to let them know when they’re at their cars to update the off duty times, any full day off payments as a result would be honoured and if nobody wanted to wait they would pay for taxis to take the crews home or put them up in a hotel if they wished. When we finally got on the bus when they decided to bus us across the runway we were talking to some of the Jet2 crew, they were told tough, it’s not our fault there was an accident and you can’t get to your car, your off duty time stands at 30 minutes post on chocks time, no help, no offers and expected to turn up for their duty later that day.

Yes, in EZY we do have some 4 sector days, you can request just two which has worked for me in the past. The reality is the days are just as long whoever you work for, the glory days are long gone. Must admit PT75 LHS at EZY is pretty sweet. Quality of life for myself is excellent, winter tends to be quiet, I can also manipulate my roster on PT75 to some degree. Summer I tend to work around 9/10 days max. Very rarely have I been sent to another base to operate, last time I had was around 5yrs ago.

Operationally at the moment Jet2 is far better than most, most hoping that those at EZY don’t have long left as nobody has any faith in their leadership on running the company. Pay deal being negotiated so the gap for FOs pay may look different to what it is now.

All have their pros and cons. Talking to friends in Jet2, TUI, BA, Virgin or Ryanair, all have grumbles about who they work for and complain of similar things, there is no utopia.

[rubymurray]

. When we finally got on the bus when they decided to bus us across the runway we were talking to some of the Jet2 crew, they were told tough, it’s not our fault there was an accident and you can’t get to your car, your off duty time stands at 30 minutes post on chocks time, no help, no offers and expected to turn up for their duty later that day..

Whilst I’m sure this is what this guy told you happened that night, that’s not what I’ve experienced with Jet2 when things have been delayed.

For a start, our check out time is 45mins for flight crew, which is normally plenty of time. If you are delayed for whatever reason, give crewing a call and you can extend your checkout time, I’ve done this several times in the past with no issues. If you feel you are too tired to drive home, again, ring crewing and they’ll sort you out with either a hotel room or a taxi, with another ride back the next day to pick your car up from the airport.
There have been quite a few min rest duties rostered this summer but if you feel you’ve had insufficient rest, call fatigued and get the duty removed. Simple.
I’ve always found the crewing and ops depts to be incredibly helpful and friendly at Jet2, especially compared to my previous airlines.

[Jonty]

45 mins in Manchester only. Everywhere else is 30 mins.
The rest I agree with.

[Stone Cold II]

I would hope so. This was the cabin crew, didn’t see the flight deck. Got a few mates at J2 and what the cabin crew were saying wasn’t the picture of what I’ve been told in the past, I did hear them on the phone to crewing and that is what he said they were told, they were not happy about it.

The road was shut for around 6-8 hours.

[steview082]

Only if you work for a rubbish airline. My november 'random roster' is:
Starts off with 5 duty days, a mixture of mid to long 2 sector days, three days flying.
then the rest of the month is two to three days off and then a 4 day run of home standbys, repeat, I dont expect to get called on the standbys this time of year but sickness levels seem higher than normal at the moment so maybe once or twice over the three weeks

Out of the airlines you posted, Jet2 is the best of the bunch.

If it’s so great then why are you desperately applying to every ME airline that exists?

And what’s so great about standby? 360 hours but endless days of pointless standby where you can’t plan anything, have to arrange childcare, sit in a hotel room if you commute. I’d rather be flying.

[Chesty Morgan]

. If as a captain you are “selected” to fly to cat C airfields (you aren’t given a choice)
True but after 3 years you are able to take yourself off any particular Cat C airfield you like.

As far as rosters go I've averaged 70 hours a month over the summer on the early duty preference. Yes more days at work but life, sleep, and sector pay have never been better.

[TheFiddler]

True but after 3 years you are able to take yourself off any particular Cat C airfield you like.


I've never heard that at J2, or know anyone who has done that....

[Chesty Morgan]

I've done it, so have a few others I know. I don't even remember how I found out you could, might have been through the PBM.

Doesn't stop them selecting you for another one though...

[Capt Scribble]

"True but after 3 years you are able to take yourself off any particular Cat C airfield you like.". I thought that a Cat C airfield required designated training of the Cp for the airfield, JSI or INN spring to mind.

[MELable]

Does anyone have any insight into how TUI is doing financially nowadays? I heard they came pretty close to the brink in 2022 but they seem to be doing alright now?

Also, do they do much in the way of night stops on the 737 or is it all there and backs?

Cheers!

[Chesty Morgan]

Yes, correct.

[apin]

Thank you for all the replies, they've certainly given me a lot to think about...

I think I'm as susceptible as anyone to 'grass is always greener' syndrome. The RAF can be a pain in the arse, and we don't get paid anything like the airlines, but I'm in a niche at the moment (which won't last forever, especially with what's going on in the world) where I don't spend much time away, its mostly a 10-4 work day, and pretty much work a 4 day week most of the time. Think I need to do a bit more research and decide what I really value.

The key factor pushing me out is the unknown- it's good at the moment but could quickly devolve into months away at a time, or I could be put in a desk job abroad for at moments notice, or some other equally **** job where I'm not flying or developing my career. Equally it's the fact my time isn't valuable to the RAF - e.g. they'll think nothing of putting an aircraft captain as a door guard for a 16 hour shift, as you're an available body, and I'm getting a bit old for that s###...

I'd still appreciate any more responses with rosters (type, airline, and best/worst months) if anyone has the time- I've only been in 7 years so I don't really have that network of mates at the airlines yet to ask, although it is slowly growing. 4 of my mates all have offers at tui/jet2 so I'll touch base with them in a year or so.

[Whitemonk Returns]

If it’s so great then why are you desperately applying to every ME airline that exists?

And what’s so great about standby? 360 hours but endless days of pointless standby where you can’t plan anything, have to arrange childcare, sit in a hotel room if you commute. I’d rather be flying.

Nothing desperate about it friend, just ready for something new, its incredible how offended people get over other people who want to do things differently to them...

For the poster who mentioned about the J2 CC on the bus. The worst part about the whole company is how they treat the cabin crew, their management is absolutely shocking and not reflective at all of how pilots are treated, that has always annoyed me actually as there is no reason why they need to treat them any differently apart from the individual CC managers are all just truly nasty people. See, no fetish, just the truth.

Would I join J2 now on the 737 at this point in my career? No
Would I join J2 if I was the original poster? Unquestionably yes, you will be on 160k in the LHS in 2 years at a regional base, you can figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life from there.

[AtoZ]

I think we are all susceptible to thinking the other side of the fence is greener grass but having worked for Wizzair UK for a short period over Covid, I would definitely prioritise the other airlines mentioned as my experience was total instability at Wizz. Wizzair is a revolving door as regards pilots at present and most who joined with me have left in under a year to Jet2 or BA.

One point of consideration is that you only start building airline experience and thus airline career development once you have joined an airline. Several ex-RAF people have said in the past they would have been ahead if they had left the services earlier.

[steview082]

Nothing desperate about it friend, just ready for something new, its incredible how offended people get over other people who want to do things differently to them...


Nobody is offended “friend”, just curious. You come on here saying how wonderful Jet2 is because you only do 360 hours a year and spend so much time at home, whilst applying to get out, to airlines where you’ll do 900 hours a year - not including bunk time - and will spend your entire life away.

These threads get started by people looking for advice on career moves and you’re just filling it with guff. No Jet2 pilot is going to be doing 360 hours a year once those expensive Airbuses make up the majority of the fleet.

[JliderPilot]

Cannot comment on other airlines but roster stability at Wizz U.K. for me has been ok for the last 18 months. This was not the case over covid lockdown and just after. However I think disruption was widespread throughout the industry. Newer management are trying to improve things.

Salary is mostly fine … when you are flying, improvements could be made for sure. Company pension is very poor and the part time offer is not a good deal. However top line take home (when you are flying) is comparable and towards the higher end of what is available. They want you to fly and on average expect 750hrs. There are busy months.

Low cost type of flying is not for everyone so do your research.

I have many friends throughout the industry ex-mil and no one is 100% happy. Quote from 17yr BA mate, ‘it’s a bit of a doss, and gets slightly less **** every day’. Some at J2 like it, others not so if your face doesn’t fit. They also have very busy months. Ezy chap I know joined from RAF did three years SFO and went back the military as he had no life at home.

When picking an airline job, maybe think seriously about the commute. If you live more than 45mins from the report location, it probably won’t work. wife / partner not happy, then you won’t be happy.

when the flight deck door is closed and we are flying it’s all pretty much the same.

[Flying Wild]

Thank you for all the replies, they've certainly given me a lot to think about...

I think I'm as susceptible as anyone to 'grass is always greener' syndrome. The RAF can be a pain in the arse, and we don't get paid anything like the airlines, but I'm in a niche at the moment (which won't last forever, especially with what's going on in the world) where I don't spend much time away, its mostly a 10-4 work day, and pretty much work a 4 day week most of the time. Think I need to do a bit more research and decide what I really value.

The key factor pushing me out is the unknown- it's good at the moment but could quickly devolve into months away at a time, or I could be put in a desk job abroad for at moments notice, or some other equally **** job where I'm not flying or developing my career. Equally it's the fact my time isn't valuable to the RAF - e.g. they'll think nothing of putting an aircraft captain as a door guard for a 16 hour shift, as you're an available body, and I'm getting a bit old for that s###...

I'd still appreciate any more responses with rosters (type, airline, and best/worst months) if anyone has the time- I've only been in 7 years so I don't really have that network of mates at the airlines yet to ask, although it is slowly growing. 4 of my mates all have offers at tui/jet2 so I'll touch base with them in a year or so.

Unfortunately there is no such thing as an average roster.

I'm at Jet2 and have cruised along at 50-60 hours this summer, others have been pushing 80-100 hours. There's no apprent rhyme nor reason. What I will say is that they are actively trying to improve the lifestyle 'attract' piece. The money is nice, but they are working on offering different working patterns (fixed % rosters or fixed pattern, AM/PM preference) as well as other bits and pieces.

[Prob30Tempo TSRA]

Ref Wizzair ,
The pay used to be an embarrassment , PPJN now quoting some crazy high salaries .

Whats the truth ? When I was looking at it it was 60k for a capt , plus about 12 quid a landing , and some flight pay based on distance divided by inclination of the moon or similar ?

[Basicsteve]

Ref Wizzair ,
The pay used to be an embarrassment , PPJN now quoting some crazy high salaries .

Whats the truth ? When I was looking at it it was 60k for a capt , plus about 12 quid a landing , and some flight pay based on distance divided by inclination of the moon or similar ?

I have a friend who is a skipper at Wizz and takes home around 9k in a very busy month. So not that bad if you can face it

[Chauderon]

To be brutally honest, if you've been in the RAF 7 years; you've taken the training and haven't given back yet. There is probably more you could get from it, as well. The RAF treated me better than one of the airlines you have asked about above, by the way.

[Twiglet1]

Thank you for all the replies, they've certainly given me a lot to think about...

I think I'm as susceptible as anyone to 'grass is always greener' syndrome. The RAF can be a pain in the arse, and we don't get paid anything like the airlines, but I'm in a niche at the moment (which won't last forever, especially with what's going on in the world) where I don't spend much time away, its mostly a 10-4 work day, and pretty much work a 4 day week most of the time. Think I need to do a bit more research and decide what I really value.

The key factor pushing me out is the unknown- it's good at the moment but could quickly devolve into months away at a time, or I could be put in a desk job abroad for at moments notice, or some other equally **** job where I'm not flying or developing my career. Equally it's the fact my time isn't valuable to the RAF - e.g. they'll think nothing of putting an aircraft captain as a door guard for a 16 hour shift, as you're an available body, and I'm getting a bit old for that s###...

I'd still appreciate any more responses with rosters (type, airline, and best/worst months) if anyone has the time- I've only been in 7 years so I don't really have that network of mates at the airlines yet to ask, although it is slowly growing. 4 of my mates all have offers at tui/jet2 so I'll touch base with them in a year or so.
The only sure thing you've learned is Pilots are rarely ever happy :ugh:

[apin]

To be brutally honest, if you've been in the RAF 7 years; you've taken the training and haven't given back yet. There is probably more you could get from it, as well. The RAF treated me better than one of the airlines you have asked about above, by the way.

You might see it that way, but I've completed my return of service, hence I've paid back my training with my time. That's a bit like saying you can't leave a company when your training bond is paid off because you haven't 'given back' yet.

I hear what you're saying, but my experience of the RAF has been rather different. It's a big organisation, with ephemeral leadership, and I've seen enough good people be messed about to think 'yeah, I don't want to be in that position'.

[VariablePitchP]

To be brutally honest, if you've been in the RAF 7 years; you've taken the training and haven't given back yet. There is probably more you could get from it, as well. The RAF treated me better than one of the airlines you have asked about above, by the way.

They’ll have had seven years of constant holds and being totally mucked about to now perhaps be ready to do a real front line tour. In their 30s, the mess life has worn off, and despite the investment and sacrifices, are making less than a day 1 FO at any of the above discussed carriers.

Drag out military flying for another decade to get 1500 hours and maybe an ATPL on the side and still only half way to a commercial command. One that 20 somethings fly about with having done only five years of flying.

Different worlds, but once it’s set in stone the airline path is for you it just needs to be done, every year remaining in the military is a year spent not as a top scale training captain down the line.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Nobody is offended “friend”, just curious. You come on here saying how wonderful Jet2 is because you only do 360 hours a year and spend so much time at home, whilst applying to get out, to airlines where you’ll do 900 hours a year - not including bunk time - and will spend your entire life away.

These threads get started by people looking for advice on career moves and you’re just filling it with guff. No Jet2 pilot is going to be doing 360 hours a year once those expensive Airbuses make up the majority of the fleet.

What Guff? You have no idea how many hours a J2 Airbus pilot has flown this year or will fly in the years ahead, they were sitting around for months flying less than me at the start of the year. You also have nò idea about the level of recruitment required to fill all of these expensive new aircraft over the next decade and the Airbus will not make up the majority of the fleet probably for at least that decade, one thing I can confidently say is that an Airbus DEC non line trainer will have a cushy number over the next 5 years and will not fly more than 700 hrs a year, the rostering is too inefficient for that to happen.

Also why do you care if I have plans for something new? You know nothing about my life or where I am in it. My opinion is still more valid than you who has offered nothing but wierd anti J2 attacks

[CaptainProp]

Low cost type of flying is not for everyone so do your research.



Is there any other type of flying today? Unless you do cargo or long haul flying, which brings a whole load of other issues for many, then wherever you go today you’ll have to expect to fly 700-850 hours and do a mix of 2-4 sector days.

[steview082]

What Guff? You have no idea how many hours a J2 Airbus pilot has flown this year or will fly in the years ahead, they were sitting around for months flying less than me at the start of the year. You also have nò idea about the level of recruitment required to fill all of these expensive new aircraft over the next decade and the Airbus will not make up the majority of the fleet probably for at least that decade, one thing I can confidently say is that an Airbus DEC non line trainer will have a cushy number over the next 5 years and will not fly more than 700 hrs a year, the rostering is too inefficient for that to happen.

Also why do you care if I have plans for something new? You know nothing about my life or where I am in it. My opinion is still more valid than you who has offered nothing but wierd anti J2 attacks

Oh dear, Princess, looks like you’re the one getting offended.

Put it this way, if an Airbus pilot is doing 360 hours a year in 5 years time, there will be no airline left. Doing 360 hours a year on a knackered old paid off 757 fleet that costs nothing to keep on the ground is one thing. Doing it on an expensive brand new Airbus fleet is another altogether. Those planes will have to fly all year round.

Nothing anti-J2 here. Just being realistic. Good luck in the Desert, looks like you’ll need it.

[Chauderon]

You might see it that way, but I've completed my return of service, hence I've paid back my training with my time. That's a bit like saying you can't leave a company when your training bond is paid off because you haven't 'given back' yet.

I hear what you're saying, but my experience of the RAF has been rather different. It's a big organisation, with ephemeral leadership, and I've seen enough good people be bothered about to think 'yeah, I don't want to be in that position'.

Unless it’s changed in the last few years, initial pilot Return of Service was 6 years from end of OCU, so I’m doubtful you’ve completed it having served 7 years in total. Most of your time has been in training, so you haven’t really given back. Not being sanctimonious; that’s just how it is. Either way, I wish you all the best.

[apin]

They’ll have had seven years of constant holds and being totally mucked about to now perhaps be ready to do a real front line tour. In their 30s, the mess life has worn off, and despite the investment and sacrifices, are making less than a day 1 FO at any of the above discussed carriers.

Drag out military flying for another decade to get 1500 hours and maybe an ATPL on the side and still only half way to a commercial command. One that 20 somethings fly about with having done only five years of flying.

Different worlds, but once it’s set in stone the airline path is for you it just needs to be done, every year remaining in the military is a year spent spent not as a top scale training captain down the line.

You've hit the nail on the head really... I loved the idea of a tour on herc, but since that has been canned, all other options seem rather lacklustre from talking to mates on those fleets. It basically sounds like airline flying without the cash, and they don't have the protections of law or unions, and the 'roster' is being ordered to do a trip at no notice, when you had leave in. I'm sure instructing could be rewarding, but staying is a massive gamble, and one I know in my gut just won't pay off.

[apin]

Unless it’s changed in the last few years, initial pilot Return of Service was 6 years from end of OCU, so I’m doubtful you’ve completed it having served 7 years in total. Most of your time has been in training, so you haven’t really given back. Not being sanctimonious; that’s just how it is. Either way, I wish you all the best.

Yeah I've done 7 years, 2.5 in training, 4.5 of those front line, and a further with another 18 months until I can leave on the RoS. Just looking ahead because that's how you have to plan with the way they've structured our pay - I lose about £13k from my salary for the final year when I've handed in your notice, so I want to know I've got a good plan in place for when I hit that big red PVR button.

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[Chauderon]

In terms of money, there are some good opportunities - I'm making around treble what I left a few years ago. A couple of things I found along the way; in terms of 'ephemeral leadership' in the Armed Forces, these are people with months of CLM training at Cranwell / Halton / Shrivenham. In the civilian world you will be working under managers with literally zero days of leadership training, and for some people it clearly shows. In terms of protection under the law and unions, European aviation is a mess and you're not really protected in many organisations despite who or what should be on your side.

Good luck.

[VariablePitchP]

In terms of money, there are some good opportunities - I'm making around treble what I left a few years ago. A couple of things I found along the way; in terms of 'ephemeral leadership' in the Armed Forces, these are people with months of CLM training at Cranwell / Halton / Shrivenham. In the civilian world you will be working under managers with literally zero days of leadership training, and for some people it clearly shows. In terms of protection under the law and unions, European aviation is a mess and you're not really protected in many organisations despite who or what should be on your side.

Good luck.

Not that relevant. As a commercial pilot, at least as a captain, you are your own manager. That’s the whole point. You have no interaction with management on a day to day basis other than corporate fluff into your inbox from head office.

Don’t quite follow your view that the military has better leaders (I think that’s what you’re implying). The gene pool for service leaders is disgustingly small. Anyone properly good would be working for Accenture on multiples more than an air rank would be on. Heck, there are low cost captains in their 20s making similar to what an Air Vice-Marshal makes, to eat snacks in a straight line to Lanzarote and back. You end up with the backwash of the military establishment running the show.

[Chauderon]

Ironic that on Remembrance Day, you’ve missed the point that those who serve in the Armed Forces have foregone much higher salaries elsewhere to serve the nation.

Was giving my personal experience of leadership in and out of the Armed Forces as the OP states that as a reason for leaving. Of course we will all have differing experiences, and your mileage may vary as they say.

[Prob30Tempo TSRA]

I thought joining the sevices was an end in itself , didn't realise it was a holding pattern whilst waiting for the big airline money

[apin]

I thought joining the sevices was an end in itself , didn't realise it was a holding pattern whilst waiting for the big airline money

Was never the plan, thought I'd be in for life for the first few years. Read previous posts on this thread for context. Anyway I'm done with justifying my choices to strangers on the internet now, hopefully this can get back on track with example rosters/useful information to people thinking of making the transition.

[VariablePitchP]

I thought joining the sevices was an end in itself , didn't realise it was a holding pattern whilst waiting for the big airline money

It’s not… unless you decide that you want to become an airline pilot..!