Personal minimum cloud ceiling for UK VFR flying

[zs1]

I'm new to flying as a private pilot in a single engine propeller plane in the UK VFR. What would be the recommended minimum cloud ceiling altitude for safe flying in all the low lying countryside. And can I trust skydemon to tell me whether my personal weather minimums such as visibility and ceiling height are met. Thanks!

[ETOPS]

I’m tempted to advise you stick to CAVOK :rolleyes:

Reality is there is no “safe” options in the UK due to these reasons …

Rapid weather changes at anytime of the year

Small country with significant terrain anomalies even in the so called flat bits

Complex airspace in the south limiting route options

Thus do what we all started with - pick your day carefully. If you must have a hard limit make it at least 2000 feet above terrain. Turn round and land if conditions worsen and thus build confidence slowly.

Which area are you based in?

[Fl1ingfrog]

500FT above fixed objects/terrain within a radius of 5nm and with a cloud base of 1000ft above the terrain and fixed objects is reasonable. If I have it correctly you can set your own personal limits within SkyDemon.

[Abrahn]

500FT above fixed objects/terrain within a radius of 5nm and with a cloud base of 1000ft above the terrain and fixed objects is reasonable. If I have it correctly you can set your own personal limits within SkyDemon.

You what?

[chevvron]

Clear of cloud, in sight of the surface ie no 'scud' below you and in flight visibiliy not less than 10nm initially reducing to 10km with experience.
NB: I base this on personal experience; if you're not happy then vary your needs to suit but whatever you do, watch out for bits of cloud forming below you which might suddenly increase with little warning; yes I know from experience.

[Piper.Classique]

500FT above fixed objects/terrain within a radius of 5nm and with a cloud base of 1000ft above the terrain and fixed objects is reasonable. If I have it correctly you can set your own personal limits within SkyDemon.

I think that's rather slim margins for a new PPL. It wouldn't take much for that to become IMC. It's legal, but is it wise?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Personally, with a lot of experience, it's on a scale - perhaps 1000ft agl for a slow aeroplane in the local area, 2000ft for faster aeroplanes and longer trips over most of the UK, nearer 5000ft if I'm crossing the Pennines or Snowdonia. I'll accept lower cloud if I'm in an aeroplane I'm prepared to go IFR in (something a new PPL won't be qualified to do), and the cloud temperatures are likely to be consistently above freezing. Also consider visibility, which can be quite important, particularly on longer trips into territory you don't know: I'd accept 5km for local flying in a slowish aeroplane, or where I'm just transitioning to IFR anyhow, but I want 8km+ for faster aeroplanes or cross-country flying. VFR visibility minima are very low, and don't usually go near them unless I'm just treating the trip as IFR anyhow.

I'd suggest a new PPL, needs to be using higher limits than I do - perhaps 2000, 3000, 5000 - and most of the time 10km+ visibility.

No, Skydemon won't tell you if you're within your personal weather limits, that's a matter of judgment, experience, and multiple information sources - including looking out of the window. It may have an option to claim to do so, but only a fool would rely on that, just as only a fool would recommend a new PPL flies in conditions close to VFR minima.

G

[zs1]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. Just to clarify Sky Demon absolutely does show when clouds and visibility are below your personal minima in the settings in Planning Options/Weather minima. I just don't know how reliable it is. And as someone said whether changes quickly in the UK.

I'm in London but of course the point of flying is to explore other areas.

[Genghis the Engineer]

At best SD will show if the forecasts or nearby reports are close to your personal minima. SD cannot look out of the window, only you can do that.

G

[Fl1ingfrog]

I'd suggest a new PPL, needs to be using higher limits than I do - perhaps 2000, 3000, 5000 - and most of the time 10km+ visibility.

There is no level of safety that can be set high enough but........! If you live in the UK then there is little that is predictable and the above is rarely possible. Making up unrealistic minima can mean that you never fly and then one day you do with disastrous consequences from panic educed poor decision making. The real answer cannot be SkyDemon however excellent it is. Personal flight planning and further training is the way forward. The minima should be just that not some pie in the sky figure that is rarely possible in the UK. Too little of low level operations are included in many of our PPL courses although it is part of the syllabus. The complexities of the UK, and much of the continent, notified airspace restrictions may force flight over high ground and through corridors with minimum separation above ground.

We are fortunate in the UK in having the IMC rating and I would advise everyone who can to take advantage of this to do so. At least take up ad hoc short courses with a suitable instructor in low level operations to increase both knowledge and confidence. Ignorance is always the killer.

[Shojohn11]

I think that's rather slim margins for a new PPL. It wouldn't take much for that to become IMC. It's legal, but is it wise?
those minimums are sketchy even for us in the US

[Jim59]

Flying at 1000' makes visual navigation difficult - for early flying at least 2000' is more comfortable.

[Gargleblaster]

Been flying for 20 years on my PPL (VFR). Whatever you end up defining as your personal minima, please do the following: Go with an IFR rated instructor on a flight in really marginal (VMC) weather, if not full IMC. Will give you a feel at how things are, a feel you'd never get on your own without panicking, and will also give you some training in staying safe should you get cought in the soup one day.

Done this a couple of time myself, and found to my great amazement that I'm fine maintaining heading and altitude, doing turns, tracking VORs and ILS, all in zero visibility. Last time we broke out of the soup at around 200' AGL being only half a runway breadth off.

[scifi]

I once went with an IMC pilot on a 120 mile trip across the country, we got into cloud. After 10 minutes we had had enough and decided to call it a day, and to land at the nearest airstrip that was still in VMC.
If the cloud is Few at 2000ft that is about as good as it gets in UK, you can always zig-zag to your destination. You can even climb above to 6000 ft and go in a straight line, with minimal turbulence, as long as you can still see some ground beneath you.
However if cloud is above 3500 ft, the tops might be up to 8000ft or more.

[RatherBeFlying]

Beware the sloping cloud ceiling. It might look level until it starts becoming misty and you might have to do a 180 on instruments.

[excrab]

Everyone seems to be concentrating on how possible it is to navigate or fly A to B (I’m sorry if I missed something somewhere in the thread). I fly for airlines and keep a single pilot IR current for SEP; but I would prefer not to plan cross country flights, either IFR or VFR, with less than a 1500 ft cloud base in case the engine stops.

It’s just a hobby, after all. If the weather is really bad I’d rather cancel and go to the pub.

[B2N2]

Been flying for 20 years on my PPL (VFR). Whatever you end up defining as your personal minima, please do the following: Go with an IFR rated instructor on a flight in really marginal (VMC) weather, if not full IMC. Will give you a feel at how things are, a feel you'd never get on your own without panicking, and will also give you some training in staying safe should you get cought in the soup one day.

Done this a couple of time myself, and found to my great amazement that I'm fine maintaining heading and altitude, doing turns, tracking VORs and ILS, all in zero visibility. Last time we broke out of the soup at around 200' AGL being only half a runway breadth off.

Not a bad thing per se but do not underestimate the effect of Human Factors.
Feeling ‘safe’ and ‘comfortable’ with your skills while flying with a trustworthy and competent instructor is very very different from flying on your own in the same conditions and realizing your life is literally in your hands and you might very well kill yourself in the next couple of minutes.

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/technique/surviving-vfr-into-imc/

[Dave Gittins]

From my perspective it depends on why you are flying. I don't use a light aircraft for any "must go" travel or else I'd have an IR(R) and different criteria and definitely an aeroplane with an autopilot (oh how I miss the Diamondstar !).

My flying is restricted to pleasure, so I only fly on a navex (say Redhill to Whitstable to Ashford to Tunbridge Wells and back) when the weather is good enough (say 2000 ft and 10 miles) to make it a pleasure.

If I need to fly to do a few quick circuits for currency, then I will accept lower limits because I don't (plan to) lose sight of the runway so 1000 ft and 6 or 7 miles will do.

I wholeheartedly agree that doing some good IFR training does a world of good for your self confidence on instruments, even if you don't get and maintain the rating.

[UV]

I used to hold an ATPL and after being made redundant I flew privately for a number of years.

I would fly privately in ANY conditions down to CAVOK.

[Local Variation]

A good debate on a topic that is not given enough airtime in my view.

‘A man needs to know his limitations’. A famous quote from a famous actor and very apt.

I found my limitations through pushing boundaries VFR including some low level scud running. And of course some other poor decisions, poor planning etc. Let’s be honest, who hasn’t.

As has been mentioned, if you play it overly safe, then you will fly little and local in the UK. And if you play it maverick, it will kill you - quickly.

I truely understood my abilities and boundaries (plus my aircraft) via my IMC rating. And like everything in life, tough experiences encountered bring the wisdom to the fore.

VFR 2000ft seems a reasonable baseline for flying A to B across the UK. Less for a local bimble. Both pending this and thats.

Each to their own and what they want to get out of it.

[Whopity]

I'm new to flying as a private pilot in a single engine propeller plane in the UK VFR. In which case you really need a cloudbase of at least 2000 ft. Be aware of where the high ground/obstacles are. If you use Skydemon relate it to the real World by looking out of the window. Never descend towards rising ground! Don't push the boundaries until you have done some instrument flying and you are confident with your ability or lack of it.

[B2N2]

I used to know a guy who insisted that on light GA aircraft his personal IFR minimums were VFR.


* This from someone who had thousands of hours.

[Fl1ingfrog]

A safe height is one you have thoroughly planned not some arbitrary number: including surface obstructions such as tall masts and of course high ground, glider and parachute sites, not forgetting notified airspace, "if I need to then I'll divert when I get there". There is little to be gained by having a minimum of 3000ft agl in the UK when you cannot fly that owing to notified airspace or cloud bases which are typically between 2-3000ft and lower.

I find it depressing how poorly navigation is taught: no low level operations training, unplanned diversions skipped. Flight solely by instruments totted up to meet the 2 hours demand but the content almost non-existent, "all that is required is a level 360° turn", no it isn't, the syllabus is detailed and comprehensive but this is ignored.

I used to know a guy who insisted that on light GA aircraft his personal IFR minimums were VFR.

This is clear of cloud with a visibility of 1500 metres and a minimum height not specified by ICAO.

[Gargleblaster]

I used to know a guy who insisted that on light GA aircraft his personal IFR minimums were VFR.


* This from someone who had thousands of hours.
Very sensible. Especially special VFR conditions (1500 m viz, which is basically one runway length , 500 foot cloudbase) can be quite challenging

[Uplinker]

Reference to a recent helicopter thread; it is a good idea to know the MSA in the area you are flying in.

If you lose VMC and get into IMC, and a 180° rate one level turn does not get you out of it; you need to have in mind the highest ground or mast that you might be heading towards.

Commercial airliners fly at least 1,000' above MSA unless they are under radar control or are certain of their position and are following published approach or departure tracks. (Certainty of position is confirmed by double or triple IRS, normally with double GPS as well).

For what it's worth, 500' AGL is much too low - give yourself a reasonable safety margin !

[Maoraigh1]

Consider the conditions at which you will do a precautionary landing - on the best available ground, not a diversion to an airfield. Then don't get into that situation. Without good instruments and currency a precautionary landing is better than going into IMC.
Consider how close to cloud you will go. Cloud can engulf you.
I have very little experience of flatland flying, and hills help you see changes in cloudbase near you. I'd require a higher cloudbase over flatland.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Certainty of position is confirmed by double or triple IRS
Excuse my ignorance, what does IRS stand for? The I probably for Inertial?

[Uplinker]

Sorry; Inertial Reference System; IRS. Nowadays each one uses laser ring gyros rather than mechanical ones, to detect rotations in each axis which can be integrated, (I think), to give velocity and distance travelled in each axis from their starting point.

On Airbus FBW there are three independant units, which are further enhanced with air data inputs and are called ADIRS, three of which are fitted to each Airbus FBW, and combined with two GPS receivers to give very comprehensive position data.

So five systems - not just one system - for position, and even then flying a safety margin above MSA.

[BoeingBoy]

Firstly if you look at the original posters other threads it would appear he has experience back home in the States, so may not be a 'new' PPL.

However, I have to correct his statement that SkyDemon does show unflyable conditions. This is from the manual:

Flyable Conditions is a personalised forecast based on your own ceiling and visibility preferences and is designed to help you visualise the weather conditions to give you a quick idea of where the weather is not good enough to go flying. It's a short-term forecast and you can look up to two hours ahead, as well as a few hours into the past. This weather overlay looks at the forecast cloudbase and visibility, and combines it with your preferences to create a useful coloured representation of where the weather is predicted to be good, marginal and most importantly, bad.

This subject came up on the main SD forum recently when someone asked if the feature could report actual cloud bases AGL in dynamic time. Obviously not, as it's only a forecast and entirely dependent on what criteria you pre-load.

As far as what cloud base (AGL) to use in low lying areas of the UK I would suggest a minimum of 1500' unless operating in the higher ground areas of Wales/Lakes/Pennines/Scotland where 'mountain flying rules' are more appropriate. A simple Google search on the subject produces a lot of useful free information.
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[skyboy999]

Some good suggestions (and some not so good!). However, you should be considering more than just cloud base. In marginal conditions, you need to give yourself even more options than you would perhaps normally plan for. So, at the expense of longer route and more time in the air (which is why most of us fly anyway for enjoyment), minimise hostile terrain and route by more airfields you could divert to if weather deteriorates. Also, practice D&D pan.

[caroberts]

If you're flying near London, you won't be able to get above 2500 due to the TMA, so cloud above that is academic unless it's a CB. Further afield, it will depend on the type of weather patterns as to the forecast reliability, the terrain, and the speed of the aircraft you are flying. On many days, at 2300 under the TMA it's quite a choppy ride, so as it's a hobby, you might want to pick days when you can get to 3000 or above, for comfort and safety.
It is better to use the Met Office aviation data than any secondary sources.