F-4 Sim Full Motion Ex-RAF now Civilian [Carrier Landings]

[SpazSinbad]

Cold War pilot for the day "You to can fly this ex-RAF F-4 Phantom simulator (the only one in the world with full motion) and experience the sensation of being a fighter pilot in the 1980s." Words: Eugenio Facci; Photos: Keith Wilson in PILOT Magazine Aug 2023

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1404x1050/f_4fullmotionsimrafnowcivilian2023_cc75254c59753af54d3e4d616 7ddf9cbc329ef5d.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1456x1049/f_4fullmotionsimrafcontrolstation_3583097a8003a0b14c1877f140 dd67bdceda2c45.jpg

[Rockie_Rapier]

Interesting. I worked on the F4K simulator at Leuchars, (it was formerly Navy property and based at Yeovil. Then, when the RAF got a tranch of F4Ks the sim was moved to Leuchars and served 43 squadron and the Ark Royal crews.

The F4K and two F4M sims were built by Redifon in the late 60's and had a computer system that consisted of two computers with magnetic core memory and a camera model visual with the image projected to a flat screen. Radar and control loading was all analogue. It was possible to operate from land and sea. Yeovil was simulated and from the Ark Royal.

The sim had a three axis motion which had a rather different geometry to this one.

The IOS also was rather different, it did have repeat instruments but no keyboards or monitors. Malfunctions and such were applied by pushbutton and the ownship position was shown through the movement of a pen mounted to an XY carriage.

It was a big machine and occupied a large, specially built building. The sims for the F4M were even larger as they had two camera model set ups. One for the runway and one for the ground attack training area.

Years later when I was in Wichita I got to see an F4 sim that the Air National Guard were using. (can't remember what mark) Singer-Link, I expect, had managed to fit the sim in its entirety into something the size of the trailer of an articulated truck.

[olster]

Sounds great fun. Fascinating to have a go without the fear factor!

[dctyke]

Sounds great fun. Fascinating to have a go without the fear factor!

Some folks would say that’s a problem with too much sim training, no consequence of error. Electric shock through the rudder pedals anyone 😉

[EXDAC]

I flew an F4 simulator at MCAS Yuma many years ago. What sticks in my memory was the rudder pedal shaker as I approached stall speed. I didn't know it would do that. I was probably still in PPL airplane training but was glider rated. Nothing I had flown prepared me for how it would feel.

I wonder if I'd do any better now that I have many more hours and types in my log.

[The Nr Fairy]

https://www.aerospace-experience.uk/f4-phantom for those who want a go.

Maybe they should also offer an "Inadvertent dog fight and shoot down" experience?

[Rockie_Rapier]

But I've heard that there was another training device that the RN F4K pilots had to get cleared on before they were allowed to try landing on the Ark for real :

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x300/airfix_flight_deck_e96cd463a5041fb6ebd2c61c032e7f39fc18ac4f. jpg

[stevef]

From very unreliable memory, the C130K simulator terrain at Lyneham in the early '70s looked like a massive snooker table with modellers' greenery and scenery under a network of camera rails for the crew visuals. I wonder if any of the pilots were confronted by monstrous house flies in the circuit. :eek: The full motion flight deck was impressive though, along with the T56 roar.
I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell how it really was.

[albatross]

A friend told me that in early simulation daze using the camera / terrain tech one landscape was modified to put the control tower on a hinge/spring mount because the camera kept hitting it with monotonous regularity when doing single engine overshoots.
He also said that they had one sim where the camera was stationary longitudinally but could move laterally and vertically while the terrain moved longitudinally towards the camera lens on a giant conveyor belt. I do not know if this was just experimental.

[mopardave]

Sounds great fun. Fascinating to have a go without the fear factor!
I think this is the one I had a go in back in the late '90's. It was in a converted agricultural building near Knaresborough in N Yorks. I think it was called Yorkshire Flight Centre? They also had a 737 sim. Fantastic fun Olster.......and like you say, no fear factor. The instructor was ex Vulcans and was called Mike.....surname escapes me. He took it all very seriously.......which was fine. I remember one of my three "missions" was to bomb a power station. The graphics were a bit ropey but a fantastic experience.

[212man]

From very unreliable memory, the C130K simulator terrain at Lyneham in the early '70s looked like a massive snooker table with modellers' greenery and scenery under a network of camera rails for the crew visuals. I wonder if any of the pilots were confronted by monstrous house flies in the circuit. :eek: The full motion flight deck was impressive though, along with the T56 roar.
I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell how it really was.
The Jaguar sim in Lossiemouth had a huge terrain model that covered East Anglia to West Wales. Apparently jelly babies were occasionally strategically placed to give maximum surprise!

[Ken Scott]

I’ve also heard of toy spiders placed on the table, they appeared huge when the ‘aircraft’ approached.

Many years ago I worked in the flight simulation department at BAes Warton, although we’d gone all digital by then we still had the old map table, complete with gouges in the hills where pilots had ridge-clipped (and the camera lens had impacted) and a broken bridge which others had tried to fly under…

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Mopar
I think this is the one from Knaresborough. After years of phixing the things I had a spin in this sim last year. Managed to get down on the deck without getting my feet wet, then bombed a power station on the way back to base.
Tremendous phun.:ok:

[Rockie_Rapier]

I’ve also heard of toy spiders placed on the table, they appeared huge when the ‘aircraft’ approached.

And similar things are possible with modern CGI sims. I've heard that around Christmas time on the Coningsby Typhoon sim digital models of such vehicles as Thunderbird 2, The Mole and Lady Penelope's pink Rolls Royce have been known to appear on the visual. To say nothing of the Star Wars Death star and assorted Tie fighters! (But I didn't tell you that.)

[Bill Macgillivray]

Ken, I remember (in the distant past) when i was tasked with "flying" the then MRCA simulator visual system (at an un-named company works). For those days (mid 70's) it was pretty good until, at low level over a certain "part" of Germany, I came face to face with a real, live spider - moving! It was a "disturbing" experience and very large!! Happy days!

[mopardave]

Mopar
I think this is the one from Knaresborough. After years of phixing the things I had a spin in this sim last year. Managed to get down on the deck without getting my feet wet, then bombed a power station on the way back to base.
Tremendous phun.:ok:

I think it must be Abb. "Mike" said I did well but he was probably being polite! He gave me a printout of my approach profile......judging by the wavy lines, in reality, I'm pretty sure I'd have been parking a pile of scrap metal on the apron! Indeed "Tremendous phun"! Might have to give it another go. Drifting somewhat, it reminds me of a surreal conversation I had on the flight deck of a 747 200 back in the early 2000's. Me and the 1st officer were having a conversation about flight sims. Imagine my surprise when the 1st officer asked me if I could land the 747 in Microsoft Flight Sim 2000.......because he couldn't!!! Fortunately he greased it in to Sanford, Florida!! Happy days.

[RatherBeFlying]

I read of a sim in Oz which included ground attack. Somebody armed the roos with AK-47s or suchlike.

[Tarnished]

I had that! But unsatisfied with it I built my own from my back garden up a poplar tree across some waste land and down into my mate's driveway, a distance of about 80 yards or 75,22234576m (made up number). We slidevery Airfix model I had down fishing line on copper wire hooks, the went like stink, you needed leather gauntlets to catch them before they crashed into the garage door. Heavy ones dipped down as the crossed the road much to the surprise of any passing motorist - especially when we had set them on fire before launching them. Happy Days

[SpazSinbad]

Cold War Pilot for the Day - Eugenio Facci [carrier approach & catapult excerpts]

"The USS Nimitz is straight ahead, a small dot in the vast blue ocean. I lower the gear, lower the hook, and select landing flap. I add a bit more power, 63% N1, to keep my speed at the target 150 knots. I actually have no idea whether I’m lined up with the deck or not: all I see is a dot in the distance, and I need to ask the ‘tower’ to try to line up (“left of centreline” is the answer). I’m concentrating a lot, trying to keep the moving carrier in the same spot, the aspect ratio constant, the speed at 150kt – and all this on an aircraft new to me.

“A quick and gentle hand,” I keep telling myself. The angled deck is becoming visible now, and then it starts to get bigger. Do I need to sideslip a bit to match the moving ship? I don’t know, I forgot to ask in the brief… but it’s not a good time for theory questions, what I need now is quick hands and feet to keep these two pieces of metal (the carrier and the Phantom) roughly aligned. As I get closer, everything becomes faster. I need to apply more corrections, but they must become smaller, and quicker. I’m low… I’ll shear off the undercarriage on the stern of the ship! Nose up, add a bit of power. Now I’m drifting... nose left… but not too much, easy! Small corrections, you’ll end up swinging! Almost there, “keep it stable,” I tell myself, gentle hands… last 200ft… 100ft…the stern passes below, the parked aircraft pass on my right, full power! Boom! My head goes forward, the straps hold me back, power idle. Am I down? Yes I am, I landed on the carrier, I can’t believe it! Definitely not elegant – drifting a bit, and with an uneasy feeling of only partial control over the whole manoeuvre, but I’m down in one piece. Phew!

At this point, a full disclosure is needed: a few minutes earlier I had ingloriously ended up in the water, along with a few tons of metal, and millions of dollars of taxpayers’ money. But luckily no one was hurt and no money was actually wasted, because we’re in a simulator. That first approach taught me a lesson about the razor-thin margin within which naval aviators fly (I am not one, and I never was). Ten feet too high, and you won’t catch the wires; ten feet too low, and you’ll crash on the ship. All this at 150kt, trying to land on a moving deck.

On that first approach, everything happened so quickly. All seemed normal until about 100ft: on-speed, on-centreline (roughly), and on-profile. Then, in what was probably a stretch of three seconds maximum, things went wrong: first I had the impression that the deck was getting ‘shorter’ instead of ‘taller’, then I realised I was getting low, I did apply power but, by then, I’d hit the water. Talk about no room for error…

...[Former RAF F-4 Pilot Alan Munro comments: The aircraft carrier approach was quite realistic though. I have never done a carrier landing, but I have flown a few carrier approaches, and as ever the carrier seemed to get smaller the closer you approached. The hook worked. A landing sight system (a ‘meatball’) was not operational the day I tried it but would be a nice addition.]...

...Next on my list are carrier operations. I get positioned on the USS Nimitz and, for the catapult launch, I set takeoff flap (thirty degrees) and hold on the brakes. Next, I set full dry power and advise the ‘tower’ that I am ready to engage re-heat. Dan says he’s ready, I click the power levers left and forward for re-heat, release the brakes, and boom! The catapult brings the Phantom to 150kt in about two seconds. Pull up, gear up and flap up: with re-heat we are building up speed at a crazy rate, even with the nose about thirty degrees above the horizon. It’s a different kind of takeoff (more like an explosion really), where in the first several seconds I’m simply raising the nose more and more to try and keep the speed from ripping off the undercarriage and the flaps before I can raise them.

In any event, I do manage to get away from the ship in one piece, and then I start to prepare for the approach and landing. The preparation is the same as for a normal runway landing, with three differences. First, you need to lower the hook (controlled by a big lever on your right side, almost a ‘twin’ to the undercarriage lever on the left). Second, you really cannot flare here, you basically fly the aircraft into the ship. Third, and the most difficult part, is that you need to be very precise in following the glide accurately to land on the wires: it’s an extreme form of short field landing, and it takes a lot of concentration. After a good few hours of flying and managing my first successful ‘trap’ on the Nimitz I was so tired that I called it a day...." PILOT Magazine August 2023

[megan]

To say nothing of the Star Wars Death star and assorted Tie fightersAlso available in at least one aircraft, flew the S-76C with glass cockpit and instructor had an arcade type game on one of the screens, aircraft shut down with electrics on. Don't know how he did it.

[twb3]

Spent some time working in the Flight Simulation labs at Boeing St. Louis. Computer visuals with high-resolution projectors in a dome are a considerable advance on model board and camera visuals! Visitors important enough to rate a tour would often be treated to a few approaches to the boat. Granted, it was usually set up with steady wind and flat calm sea (no deck movement), but quite a few non-fliers made successful "traps" with a bit of coaching.

[Fitter2]

The Lightning F1A sim at Coltishall was no motion, with the roller 'blind' scenery (mounted vertically) and camera tracking across it with rotation and bank movement. It only represented a small area around the airfield for approach and overshoot. Even without motion the realism was sufficient to cause fresh trainees to emerge sweating after a succession of emergencies were thrown, and often ended with 'banging out', or worse, crash before reaching for the handle. In either case the display and instruments froze .

It's also a stretch to call the F4 sim 'full motion'; that description only applies to 6 degree of freedom sim.s; very realistic once the software people were convinced by the aero-medics that motion cueing is faster than visual processing. Clever stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration_onset_cueing

[twb3]

The Lightning F1A sim at Coltishall was no motion, with the roller 'blind' scenery (mounted vertically) and camera tracking across it with rotation and bank movement. It only represented a small area around the airfield for approach and overshoot. Even without motion the realism was sufficient to cause fresh trainees to emerge sweating after a succession of emergencies were thrown, and often ended with 'banging out', or worse, crash before reaching for the handle. In either case the display and instruments froze .

It's also a stretch to call the F4 sim 'full motion'; that description only applies to 6 degree of freedom sim.s; very realistic once the software people were convinced by the aero-medics that motion cueing is faster than visual processing. Clever stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration_onset_cueing

That wikipeida article is a pretty good summary. Another factor that separates actual training or research devices from PC-type simulations is control loading. It is critically important that the stick / yoke and rudder forces replicate the actual aircraft for all flight conditions.

Most aircrew I worked with didn't like flying the sims much, which is understandable, but their effectiveness as training devices is important. One of the more interesting projects I worked on was assisting the company test pilots in developing demonstration routines to support sales campaigns. The routine would be flown many, many times in the dome - not only for rehearsal, but the flight controls and systems engineers would insert malfunctions to ensure that no foreseeable malfunction would put the pilot in a box such that the pilot or aircraft would be lost.

[SpazSinbad]

'twb3' said above: "...Visitors important enough to rate a tour would often be treated to a few approaches to the boat. Granted, it was usually set up with steady wind and flat calm sea (no deck movement), but quite a few non-fliers made successful "traps" with a bit of coaching." In other words a landing ashore? Did they have the use of an optical landing system such as IFLOLS (for the lols)? :-) OR were they deck spotting?
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/979x938/6degreesfreedom_61f79a4feaf300d3c41d6a506359d2e9cb5ca0fe.gif
Thanks for the info about 6 degrees of freedom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_freedom#
"The six degrees of freedom: forward/back, up/down, left/right, yaw, pitch, roll"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_freedom#/media/File:6DOF_en.jpg
OR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_freedom#/media/File:6DOF.svg

[meleagertoo]

Sounds great fun. Fascinating to have a go without the fear factor!
The biggest fright of my career was in a sim (SeaKing) - another antedelluvian one (white screens, no visuals), when a colleague misread his altitude and flared for an eol at 1070ft (or whatever it was) - and then pulled pitch to check the r.o.d. before I could manage to splutter. Got the full half-crown, sixpence, dustbin lid. I knew he'd killed us!

[twb3]

[QUOTE=SpazSinbad;11474645]'twb3' said above: "...Visitors important enough to rate a tour would often be treated to a few approaches to the boat. Granted, it was usually set up with steady wind and flat calm sea (no deck movement), but quite a few non-fliers made successful "traps" with a bit of coaching." In other words a landing ashore? Did they have the use of an optical landing system such as IFLOLS (for the lols)? :-) OR were they deck spotting?

The setup for demos was usually daylight, viz unlimited, zero wind, sea state 0, ship's speed ~20 kts, ownship at maybe 3000 ft. 20 NM astern and lined up. The visual model of the ship included IFLOLS and dropped centerline lights. We would have them engage APC (autothrottle) to help with staying on speed and fly the ball (once it was visible) and centerline. Lowest difficulty level, but the carrier burble was included in the aerodynamics modeling.

[SpazSinbad]

Good to know 'twb3'. Thanks. Would there be any information about this sim available online please? TIA.

[LOMCEVAK]

to set the record straight, the pedal shaker was triggered at a certain angle of attack (14 degrees from memory) and not at an airspeed. the F-4K had an audio angle of attack system also as did the Buccaneer (same yones but opposite sense for too high and too low AoA, at one time i was qualified and current on both and the approaches cland based onlyould get interesting.

[SpazSinbad]

RANFAA F.A.W Mk 53 Sea Venoms had the Observer calling out the airspeed in one knot increments I'm told during a carrier approach (pilot viz not so good so a low tight circuit flown at 300-400 feet - even at night). The USAF have a range of colours for AoA Indexers however I believe these days they have become standardised? An Old F-16A/B example below. The USN aircraft AoA indications have been standard for most of the time since the beginning. GREEN = Slow; ORANGE = Optimum Angle of Attack; RED = Fast - Even the venerable S2E/G gained an AoA Indexer as seen in the second graphic below.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1391x1050/f_16a_b_aoa_display_ed_65933339f1aa59cce17a83759cd4ef77ea510 b34.gif
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1624x1025/s2aoainicators_6d24bf10543352919fe47a6f59dd78dd911871b3.gif
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x610/805linebookvenom1stdlcartoonforum_c0adada41c0d71ba9e1f725cd7 aa160ba4273230.gif

[SpazSinbad]

BAEsystems has 'bad gateway' notices whilst the old F-35C Warton Sim Carrier Landing VIDEO is no longer available. :-( However I may have a copy somewhere from yonks ago. Meanwhile a couple of links to the WARTon Sim which may or may not work.

https://www.baesystems.com/en/feature/f35-qec-carrier-integration-in-the-uk
US & UK join forces in recent F35 ship integration trials 24 March 2014
"...The simulator can also be switched to represent the F35C Carrier Variant & US Nimitz carrier deck, as was demonstrated in this trial.... http://www.baesystems.com/article/BAES_165956/us-and-uk-join-forces-in-recent-f35-ship-integration-trial
__

A simulator at BAE Systems, Warton, is hosting tests to design the deck of a Queen Elizabeth carrier. ‘desider’ Vol.44 Jan 2012 [F-35C time] https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/33820/desider_44_Jan2012.pdf
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Inside The Simulator Prepping F 35 Lightning II Pilots | Forces TV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R1yVK5nn1U

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/710x401/bae_f_35_sim_1434663005750_aa9ce517be6d7e5d88f7900b998b2508d 1bad92f.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

F-35C CVF Approach in the BAE Sim then F-35B SRVL on the same.

CVF F-35C Pilot Long HUD View BAE Simulator UK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhQogo4KU7E
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SRVL F-35B Demo CVF Sim + extras

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uPWjq23vL0