'Best' helicopter to learn to fly in....

[Just_Waiting]

I'm looking to get my PPL (H), and I'm interested to get the views on which is the best helicopter to learn to fly in.

The closest training centre to me is about 5 minutes up the road and they have R22s and R44s to learn in. However I've been told that the Cabri G2 is a much safer, easier helicopter to fly - that would mean travelling for 45 minutes or so to get to a centre that has those, but is that a better option? I've also heard some people say that if you learn to fly an R22 you will find flying anything else easy!?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers,
Mark

[Sir Korsky]

Depends if you're goal is to stop at a private license. If you wish to develop as a commercial pilot and an instructor, then you'll probably have more success with the Robinsons, as there are far more of them around. Why don't you take a trial lesson in all of them ? See what you like best. They'll all be fun, that's for sure ! Good luck.

[Just_Waiting]

I'm currently thinking it would be a hobby, but ideally, eventually I'd like to get ratings on something with more seats so I could fly friends around.

[HeliMannUK]

I'm currently thinking it would be a hobby, but ideally, eventually I'd like to get ratings on something with more seats so I could fly friends around.

If more seats is the goal then fly the cheapest two seater you can find.

The Robinson 22 v Cabri argument normally comes down to cost. The Cabri was designed with the r22 shortcomings in mind but it also isn't without it's pitfalls.

Go for a school with at least two helicopers of the type you learn on for a smoother learning experience.

If you are taught in the r22 then the transition will be easier to the r44 and then onto a jet ranger/505 or r66.

If you are taught on the Cabri then the only similar bigger machine is the airbus series of machines starting with the 350 or h120.

Otherwise you are into more niche machines like gazelle, bo105 and maybe the older pistons like the bell 47 or the turbine allouette.

For your training purposes fly the cheapest machine, you might save enough doing that for a type rating into a jet ranger or a 350.

[Robbiee]

The absolute best helicopter to learn to fly in, is the cheapest one you can find. Its the same license no matter which model you choose, so why pay more for it?

That being said, I have zero regrets learning to fly in an R22!

[HeliHenri]

The seriousness of the school and the quality of the instructor!
.

[hargreaves99]

Mmm.. not really.

I have known people who get their PPL on a Cabri, then they want to fly a 4 seater (to take people up) and its taken then 15+ hours to get used to the R44! (ie an extra £8,000)

Even the transition from the R22 to the R44 often takes more than the 5 hours for new ppl holders

The R22/Cabri is fine if you just want to diddle around the local area with 1 passenger, anything more than that (ie going somewhere in comfort/speed) and the R44 wins, so in my opinion it's best to do your PPL on the R44, so there are no extra costs after the PPL


the The absolute best helicopter to learn to fly in, is the cheapest one you can find. Its the same license no matter which model you choose, so why pay more for it?

That being said, I have zero regrets learning to fly in an R22!

[SWBKCB]

Gosh that 5 minutes sounds attractive. And is that 45 minutes a real 45 min, or 45 min on a good day with the wind behind you? Real life gets in the way sometimes, and you can be amazed how much time a "1 hour" lesson can take.

It's good advice to visit the schools and see how you like them, and to check the fleet size so you have good availability.

All factors to be taken into account as well as the helicopter type.

[paco]

If you can fly a Hiller you can fly anything..... :)

If you intend to fly commercially, you want something that is used commercially, and is cheap. The insurance companies don't care what the hours are in and it can be the scruffiest out there (as long as its safe of course). However, companies do care if they are faced with converting you on to something different.

Now, as to the title of the thread, the best one to learn in is the Bell 47...... but that's another thread.

[Rotorbee]

In that case I would recommend the R44. It is less twitchy than the R22 and has 4 seats. Costs less than a turbine.
The Cabri has an advantage, because it is a more modern helicopter than the Robinsons, but with the resent events in Switzerland and the US, I am not that sure, it is the saver helicopter. It is certainly more crashworthy. Still a great helicopter to learn in. But for a privat pilot, the R44 is ideal.
I liked the H300, too and Bell 47 is the classic ship to learn anything in.

[hargreaves99]

Cabri use in the UK seems to be declining, so if you get your PPL on a Cabri....you could end up struggling to find a school that operates one

Go R44. It's fast, comfortable, takes 4 people, relatively affordable, no extra post-PPL costs, and there are tons around.

[CGameProgrammerr]

The R22 is best by virtue of being the cheapest and most available for training, if you're not too heavy for it. It takes a lot of hours in practice to be ready for PPL (more than the minimum) so the money really adds up. The Cabri G2 is roughly twice as expensive as the R22 and thus so are the training costs. In fact it's very close to the price of a base R44 Cadet.

The G2 is for sure safer than the R22/R44 or Bell 206/505 just by virtue of having a fully articulated rotor instead of semi-rigid, and a fenestron, but in practice accidents almost always have nothing to do with the rotor, especially when flown with a competent CFI.

[Luther Sebastian]

I found it was a significant advantage to learn in something I could later use (taking family and friends up say), which for me meant the 44. There is a lot to be said for 150 hours of familiarity with one type, especially for someone who is always going to be low time.

[Rotorbee]

Question: Is the hourly rate of the R44 Cadet cheaper than the UK than the R44?

[hargreaves99]

Yes, I think the R44 cadet is slightly cheaper than the regular R44

[paco]

"The G2 is for sure safer than the R22/R44 or Bell 206/505 just by virtue of having a fully articulated rotor instead of semi-rigid"

Don't think so somehow. It's certainly not safer than the 206, which doesn't get ground resonance. Fully articulated rotors do.

[Robbiee]

Mmm.. not really.

I have known people who get their PPL on a Cabri, then they want to fly a 4 seater (to take people up) and its taken then 15+ hours to get used to the R44! (ie an extra £8,000)

Even the transition from the R22 to the R44 often takes more than the 5 hours for new ppl holders

The R22/Cabri is fine if you just want to diddle around the local area with 1 passenger, anything more than that (ie going somewhere in comfort/speed) and the R44 wins, so in my opinion it's best to do your PPL on the R44, so there are no extra costs after the PPL


the

The R44 is really just a big R22, so it really doesn't take much time in it to be all that comfortable. Sure, it took me about 50 hours to stop rocking it slightly in a hover because of the lack of feedback from the hydraulic cyclic, but so what?

Anyway, I don't know about the UK, but its certainly cheaper to get your ppl.in the 22, then get an additional 10 hours in the 44 for the PIC endorsement, than doing it all in the 44.

,...but hey, if you've got stacks of money burning a hole in your pocket, sure, go with the 44 from the get go, lol.

I honestly don't know why anyone would choose the Cabri if their goal.is to fly family and friends around?

[hargreaves99]

The Cabri only really prepares you for an EC120 or AS350

[Just_Waiting]

Thanks everyone! Quite a mix on answers but I think the majority seem to say go for the R22 over the Cabri. The next thing to decide is whether to do blocks of lessons or individual hour long lessons.....

[hargreaves99]

R22 PPL:

65 hours x £400 per hour = £26,000 ...+ six hour R44 rating (at £600 per hour) £3,600 = £29,600
(but...will you get the R44 rating in just 6 hours?, and how comfortable in it will you be for taking pax?)

R44 PPL:

60 hours x £600 per hour = £36,000

(R44 is a bit easier to fly hence you get your PPL in fewer hours)

[hargreaves99]

if you can get a decent discount, maybe buy in ten hour blocks, but NEVER pay the entire PPL cost up front to any UK flight school

[CGameProgrammerr]

Never pay up front to any flight school, regardless of country. If you do then they no longer have any incentive to train you because they already have your money. There are tons of nightmare stories from people who did that and were screwed.

[Hughes500]

The question which is the best helicopter to learn in, i would suggest from a pure view then Hu 269 takes a lot of beating. Easy to fly very forgiving and unlike most R22 schools will do engine off landings to the ground . From an instructors point of view you can let the student really loose it before you have to regain it.

[Dog on Cat3]

The "best" is the one being maintained by the same outfit teaching you. Why??...because when it is pissing down with rain and blowing a gale outside you, the Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) and a warm mug of coffee will at least get to sit for several comfortable, undisturbed and free hours in the cockpit, in the hangar, running through those important checklists and all your procedures until you are memory perfect. Better than that...you will also get to quiz the mechanics. A smart pilot always sticks close to those who really know where to look for that hydraulic leak on preflight inspection, what fire detector sensor usually gives the false alarm and why, and which instructor is known in the repair hangar to be the firm's biggest liability. Best advice is to learn in something small, like an R22; plentiful, thus cheapest, and lots of maintenance going on. Later you will move onto turbine engines and much more complex systems, for that is all larger helicopters are. Again, then the lads and lasses in the maintenance shed will be your greatest teachers. Above all, start small and build up. It worked for me. And while we are on the subject, always remember:...Know safety, no pain. No safety, know pain.

[Robbiee]

Thanks everyone! Quite a mix on answers but I think the majority seem to say go for the R22 over the Cabri. The next thing to decide is whether to do blocks of lessons or individual hour long lessons.....

The best way to get you ppl, is to save up enough money for the entire rating before you start. Then fly five days a week and get it done in about two months of full time schooling. That's how I did it,... except replace "save up" with "borrowed", lol.

,...and always just pay for each lesson one at a time. As you never know when your school is going to "suddenly" go out of business.

[megan]

and always just pay for each lesson one at a time. As you never know when your school is going to "suddenly" go out of businessAmen, the best advice ever Robbiee, offspring was doing training out of town and with another student flew home for Xmas in one of the organisations aircraft, made arrangements with the local aero club where they had to purchase fuel on the training organisations carnet that I would reimburse them if they found difficulty in getting payment. So it came to pass, the training organisation went belly up a month later and I received demand from the the firm handling the collapse for payment of monies owing, paid the aero club for the fuel and deducted it from monies owing to the training organisation.

What was more galling was on the day they collapsed they were still cashing the cheques of those who had made lump sum payments for the entire course but were yet to begin.

[hargreaves99]

not possible at most UK schools, as most UK schools do not do their own maintenance


The "best" is the one being maintained by the same outfit teaching you.

[[email protected]]

Continuity is one of the most vital aspects of learning to fly so doing one or two lessons a month will find you constantly relearning, forgetting and relearning.

Take your lessons a week at a time with several hours each week and without too much of a break between weeks of flying.

This means (as already suggested) having the money readily available ie saved up or loan arranged.

The aviation environment can be an alien one if you have little or no experience of it and immersing yourself in that environment is key to good progress.

There is a lot to learn both in terms of ground study and building muscle memory and confidence - sporadic flying doesn't help that at all.

As suggested by others, if you want in the future to take friends and family flying, go for the R44 so by the time you get to do that you are comfortable and knowledgeable about the machine - a quick type conversion won't do that for you.

Once you are qualified, make sure you fly regularly as skill fade is real - even after 40 years and 10,000 hours I know the difference between flying regularly and not - the basics are there but the finesse (and therefore spare capacity) fade quickly.

Good luck:ok:

[rudestuff]

Learn in the R22. It's the hardest to fly and the cheapest to rent. Everything else will be easier to fly.

[meleagertoo]

Easy to fly very forgiving and unlike most R22 schools will do engine off landings to the ground.

Are you seriously saying there are schools that don't do eol's? It isn't an eol if it isn't taken to the ground, it's just an autorotation.
Surely you cant gain a PPL without having done dozens of them?

[rudestuff]

The FAA don't do them at all for PPL or CPL. Apparently the risk of mishap training for one far outweighs the risk of actually having one, and the safest course of action is to train people to get it to a survivable point rather than ground contact.

[Bell_ringer]

Are you seriously saying there are schools that don't do eol's? It isn't an eol if it isn't taken to the ground, it's just an autorotation.
Surely you cant gain a PPL without having done dozens of them?

Just doesn't happen anymore, too much risk. They will get you close enough to the ground to hopefully not do too much harm to yourself.
What fresh solo student is going to pull off a real one gracefully in a 22?
I started on a 22, the Cabri wasn't an option then and still isn't, because it is gutless and doesn't operate at anything resembling higher DA.
A 22 is one uncomfortable place to train if you aren't short but not that unpleasant with the doors off on a warm day.
I rapidly moved on to a 44 instead, partially because the 22's kept breaking or crashing.
The running cost of an 22 is now so much higher due to insurance that a 44 (Raven or Cadet) isn't much more per hour and it is a (relatively) safer place to be.
When you are able, run away as fast as possible from a piston to a decent helicopter and never look back :E

Ultimately the best aircraft for training is the one you can get to use regularly and is properly maintained.

[Pilot DAR]

Don't pay in advance. Always pay promptly after your lesson. Have some money saved up in YOUR bank account to keep you training consistently. A school you want to be doing good business with does not need money up front. I tried both the R22, and the SW300. I preferred the SW300, and that's what I trained in. With that done, transition to an MD500 was very easy, and the type endorsement was only a couple of hours. As others have mentioned, full on autorotations were not a part of my training at all. I was trained to get close to the ground, from which a power off landing would likely be successful, while reducing training risk.

[ApolloHeli]

...the Cabri wasn't an option then and still isn't, because it is gutless and doesn't operate at anything resembling higher DA.
...
I'm assuming you haven't flown one since the 160shp update, because it isn't 'gutless' (it may have previously felt that way at lower DA's being limited to 145shp). In it's current form a Cabri G2 does great for training and landing 2 POB up to 6500'+ depending on the ISA deviation

[Bell_ringer]

I'm assuming you haven't flown one since the 160shp update, because it isn't 'gutless' (it may have previously felt that way at lower DA's being limited to 145shp). In it's current form a Cabri G2 does great for training and landing 2 POB up to 6500'+ depending on the ISA deviation

I can assure you it doesn't work up here at our temps and altitude.
It is a job in and of itself to get one in for demo purposes at the trade shows.
Hence no one uses them, popular at the coast though.

On a warm day, even a 22 requires some encouragement.
Cabri is just too heavy. They are also losing them at a pace, all from letting the tail overtake the rest of the aircraft on landing.

[Robbiee]

I'm assuming you haven't flown one since the 160shp update, because it isn't 'gutless' (it may have previously felt that way at lower DA's being limited to 145shp). In it's current form a Cabri G2 does great for training and landing 2 POB up to 6500'+ depending on the ISA deviation

160 huh? Doesn't that only make it just as powerful as an R22 Beta?

[Devil 49]

I'm looking to get my PPL (H), and I'm interested to get the views on which is the best helicopter to learn to fly in.

The closest training centre to me is about 5 minutes up the road and they have R22s and R44s to learn in. However I've been told that the Cabri G2 is a much safer, easier helicopter to fly - that would mean travelling for 45 minutes or so to get to a centre that has those, but is that a better option? I've also heard some people say that if you learn to fly an R22 you will find flying anything else easy!?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers,
Mark

The best training helicopter is the one your instructer uses. Pick your instructor first! That is the most important aspect of flight instruction. The instructer has to be able to teach you according to your learning style. I would travel to the best instructer I could find, quality instruction is the determinant of the rest of your flying career. I use the term 'career' because you want to be as serious, careful and professional in all your flying. Flying is not especially dangerous but it is spectacularly unforgiving; and bad habits acquired early are very difficult to train out of.

Don't worry about instructional airframe, Bell, Schweizer, Robinson, whatever should not be your problem. Airframe availability is more important. I would travel to a school with adequate resources, both airframe and instructional infrastructure, to avoid interrupted training sessions.

I recommend doing as much of the ground schooling as you can as early in the process as you can.... Even if you repeat some segments. The student pilot is not just learning to wiggle the stick with some control- you're learning in a different world and it has a different language.

Next, consider frequency of training. An hour a day for a pre-solo is plenty, more is generally not productive. Once you've done 5-10 hours of your 'solos', you can fly more every day and build experience.

[meleagertoo]

To answer the OP accurately. If you want to learn to fly a helicopter there are, imho few choices. I have no experience of Hillers but anyhow they are not an available choice these days, so, No 1 by a long, long country mile tops is Bell 47.
No 2 and 3 - I'd hate to choose between H269 (Hughes 300) or an earlier Enstrom. By preference a straight F28a or maybe at a pinch cheat with a turbocharged F28c. In all cases with no correlator.
I learned on Gazelle. Spoilt! Fabulous beyond imagiation. Then the CAA fcucked up and forced me to do totally unnecessary 30 hr course on the B47 for a CPL.
I learned as much about flying a helo in that short time as the Navy had taught me to Wings level in 65hrs Gazelle time - and thought I had the light helo skillset more or less there. I learned about as much again on a summer season in charter, pipeline and joyriding an the F28A. That 'unnecessary' B47 time served me very well indeed in instilling fundamental procedures and considerations of helo P of F hat the brute power and sophistication of the Gaz had masked or minimalised. Do not be decieved that sophistication in a training helo is an advantage. I'd argue the exact opposite.
But I suppose it depends what you want a PPL for.
All those months of minimal power ops in the B47 and F28 set me up perfectly for dodgy hot, heavy and high bush ops in Africa later in B206s, leave alone the highly questionalble world (performance wise) of Cheltenham, Ascot, Silverstone, gardens in Acton and Guildford, pipeline and powerline surveys beyond normal endurance and charters galore.

Guys, the message is; learn the basics first!

[Sir Korsky]

UK flight school students losing out...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66018076

[Hughes500]

Meleagertoo, most schools now claim the auto rotative landing on the skills / 2138 PC as an EOL from a hover as opposed to what most people think of an EOL being from 1000 ft. Personally anyone who thinks it is too dangerous to put on the ground isnt a good enough instructor and shouldnt be teaching anyone !

[605carsten]

Best heli?
Do it in the one that is closest and most reliable/available to suit flying at least 2.5 times a week… especially at PPL level were getting basics down is most important. R44 if given the choice as there are alot around and you can bring your mates easier than a 2 seater. (Raven II with injection is best compromise as death by carb ice isnt a great idea..)

Flight schools have failed since the dawn of time so never pay more upfront than you can afford to lose, go modular so you have options to swap schools when something happens.

Also, please consider getting a set of flight sim controls and VR goggles… saves a crapload of dosh when learning to hover (in my case, Puma Trainer Helicontrols, Xplane 11 R44 and Quest2 VR goggles)

[Torquetalk]

Also, please consider getting a set of flight sim controls and VR goggles… saves a crapload of dosh when learning to hover (in my case, Puma Trainer Helicontrols, Xplane 11 R44 and Quest2 VR goggles)

A good investment. Not only helpful for training hover reference, but much more. From training pattern work and panel scan (although a simulator needs a disproportionate instrument scan reference for learning to fly visually - overtraining eyes in), it will help with night, procedure training, instrument training and a surprising amount of skill tweaking for commercial flying. It will also help to develop a timely but light control input.

And I agree entirely wit meleagertoo about being spoilt by learning on more sophisticated aircraft. Someone I knew killed themselves in a Gazelle just after getting their PPL. If some of the basics had not be masked by the correlation and hydraulics of that aircraft, he might not have been so bold in putting himself in a very dangerous situation that far outstripped his capacity to cope.
CPL(A) confidence meets low time PPL(H) with no rotorcraft muscle memory - a deadly combination.

[[email protected]]

But remember the Gazelle was used in the military as a trainer to prepare for more complex and faster operational types (in most cases) which almost always had a surplus of power - it was great trainer in that respect and a brilliant aircraft to fly (I'm still rated on it).

Since the military had no piston helicopters from the 70s onwards, why train on something like a Bell 47 just so you can learn overpitching and severe power limited techniques (none of which are exactly difficult to master)?

[Torquetalk]

I‘m with the 269, 47, Enstrom advocates on this. The less correlation aid for ab initio learning, the better. Even the R22 is not a very good aircraft for teaching correlation as the aircraft is operated in a power range where little or lag/overreaction happens - and it has a governor on top. The Robbies also come into balance more easily than a 269, even if flown quite badly. The hughes is easy to fly, but not so easy to fly nicely. Personal impression.

Part of the case for piston is not just cost: Faster engine response is an added safety margin, helping to recover wrong inputs, especially helpful if a low RRPM exercise is poorly done or the wrong inputs made in a simulated engine failure, and using throttle to manipulate yaw is very direct when teaching torque reaction for yaw issues.

[Robbiee]

I‘m with the 269, 47, Enstrom advocates on this. The less correlation aid for ab initio learning, the better. Even the R22 is not a very good aircraft for teaching correlation as the aircraft is operated in a power range where little or lag/overreaction happens - and it has a governor on top. The Robbies also come into balance more easily than a 269, even if flown quite badly. The hughes is easy to fly, but not so easy to fly nicely. Personal impression.

Part of the case for piston is not just cost: Faster engine response is an added safety margin, helping to recover wrong inputs, especially helpful if a low RRPM exercise is poorly done or the wrong inputs made in a simulated engine failure, and using throttle to manipulate yaw is very direct when teaching torque reaction for yaw issues.

Having flown the Schweizer and Enstrom after getting my ppl in an R22, I must say that having to manipulate the throttle is a "no biggie" skill and certainly not worth the higher cost of training in those aircraft.

[[email protected]]

Unless you intend to fly an aircraft with little or no correlation after you have your licence - what on earth is the point of training on one?

Learn to fly on what you will fly in the future if you can afford it.

You don't need to learn on a unicycle to ride a bicycle.

Otherwise we'd be teaching F35 pilots on Sopwith Camels.

[Torquetalk]

It’s an argument. But I think that muscle memory is really valuable, also providing a strong base later for managing governing/EEC issues.

In the case mentioned, I‘m sure that the pilot involved needed to learn more nuts & bolts in something “ugly“ rather than be flattered by the Gazelle.

[Bellicose]

The best helicopter to learn to fly in?
Simple. It's the Bell 205A1- as it's the best helicopter ever.

[megan]

The best helicopter to learn to fly in?
Simple. It's the Bell 205A1- as it's the best helicopter everThe chap may wish to use your wallet, no argument from me though, many a happy hour, first operational type.

[chopperchappie]

I learned to fly about 10+ years ago, I was very much like you by the sounds of your post a bit bemused by all of the commitment to a choice of who/how/where methodology.
To be fair not much has changed in the likely training aircraft candidates except the introduction of the Cabri.
I had advice coming out of my ears and in a lot of cases, contradictory statements so I took some advice that turned out to be really bad for me.
I'm not claiming I know whats best for you but I would say I leaned some tough lessons quickly. I'm happy to say what I found for myself and my situation.

Whilst I haven't read every post in this thread I have had a decent scan through and a lot of the advice given I would 100% concur;

Aim to learn to fly what you think you'll fly - so that's most likely to be an R44 for most peoples "budget" multi passenger aircraft - if you think you'll fly something else then all these points can be ignored
If the economics of learning on an R44 are too hefty then as many have said the transition from R22 to R44 is best*
I would expect the cost of learning on R22 then doing (even say 8h) type rating on a R44 is likely to be less than learning on an R44 - so whats the most important budget or safety/consistency??
Does R22 have some shortcomings - yes obviously most aircraft do - so learn about the situations (look at training course to learn about dangerous conditions) that could (are more likely to) arise in an R22 that are dangerous - such as loss of engine and loss of blade inertia & negative pushovers
I would agree with the comment about getting the money first then doing it as one hit - even then its hard work over time to stay focused if you've got a busy life like most people - one hour a week is about a year commitment or two hours a week is about 6m


But think about when you start and plan your "hours" as much as possible as things will change - I ended up getting close to my test but struggling to fly as it was winter weather in hindsight I would have started and done enough hours a week to finish in August/September
I was also driving an hour having 2x 1hr lessons and driving an hour back nearly every Saturday - that really is enough and sometimes I was so tired on the way back I was at risk of falling asleep so location is important
* = I actually learned on a H269/H300 and it was really great to learn on very docile and I would suggest probably the best to learn on but I ran into continuity issues when my original instructor couldn't continue - hence why I would suggest the R22/R44 as they are ubiquitous.

Some people have suggested choosing the helicopter based on the instructor/school -
I absolutely agree that the instructor is a massive part of the equation but chosing an obscure helicopter because of an instructor is not a school of thought I subscribe to because;

The things some people like are not always the things other people like - example one of my instructors "didnt like" flying near London because of the ATC & restrictions but flying helilanes is great (with experience)
Not everyone gets on with everyone, so some instructor that your mate reckons is the best thing since sliced bread could really annoy you - its not until you are 5-10+ hours in that you'll feel the love or not
If its a one man band instructor what happens in they go sick/awol/retires/has a family emergency
If its a company your preferred instructor could leave them or the company could go bust - it happens even with big companies
If you go with a company and they have multiple instructors you want to check you'll get continuity BUT it sometimes helps to fly occasionally with a different instructor they'll pick up on different things

And for those reasons I would NEVER pay more than 10 hours upfront even if the discount were massive - this is one thing that bit me as my one man band instructor stopped flying

I would also be quite pedantic about checking through your training record with your instructor as you learn - if you do need to change you need everything documented
Imagine the situation that you start learning on a random aircraft that you really like the instructor (say a Enstrom or a Bell47 or whatever) and after 20 hours your instructor fails their CAA medical and cant instruct, thats a sticky wicket, if you're learning with a company on an R22 they'll just roll in a different instructor and everything caries on as before! If you want to do something like this - have a back-up plan IMHO!
Now I would say there's a lot of individual instructors that are very good and you'll probably pay more with a company but I started with an individual and I ended up completing my training with a company.

I didn't see anyone talking about going to the states to learn - I don't know about the economics or logistics of that these days but you might want to into it for the weather if nothing else
I didn't see anyone talking about buying into a shared aircraft scheme - I did that and it took a lot off my overall costs - not for everyone but worth a look

Hope that helps
CC

[Robbiee]

Kids these days are always asking which helicopter they should train in. When I learned (twenty years ago) I knew absolutely nothing about helicopters and thus this question never once popped into my head.

There were two schools in my area. I went to one and got a bad vibe from the chief pilot, so I went and checked out the other one, didn't get a bad vibe, went on a demo flight, absolutely loved it, and a week later I began training.

They could have been flying the J100 Flipiddy-Flop for all I cared. :cool:

[hargreaves99]

I think the best method is having one "Regular" instructor, with the very occasional other instructor. The students I see who have multiple instructors always take longer to get their PPL, sometimes 10-20 hours more (ie it could cost you up to £8,000 more)

[meleagertoo]

Kids these days are always asking which helicopter they should train in. When I learned (twenty years ago) I knew absolutely nothing about helicopters and thus this question never once popped into my head.

An acquaintance of mine's son is doing his UK PPL(H). I was shocked - nay, horrified to learn that his motivation was so he could earn money by taking people to race-courses and 15hrs into the course had no idea whatsoever what type he was flying. In fact it seemed there were two types which were somewhat different, I suspect R22 and Colibri - but he hadn't a clue.
I can only wonder at the quality of the "school" he is learning at.

[Robbiee]

An acquaintance of mine's son is doing his UK PPL(H). I was shocked - nay, horrified to learn that his motivation was so he could earn money by taking people to race-courses and 15hrs into the course had no idea whatsoever what type he was flying. In fact it seemed there were two types which were somewhat different, I suspect R22 and Colibri - but he hadn't a clue.
I can only wonder at the quality of the "school" he is learning at.
​​​​​​

I don't think you quite understand what I was saying? I knew I was flying an R22. What I didn't know, was that there were different models out there that other schools used for training, and that "apparently" there's a rivalry between them over which is the best.

In other words, it never occurred to me to choose a school based on which model of helicopter they used.

[hargreaves99]

this is the problem with instructors only earning £50 per flight hour (when the student is paying £400-£600 per hour)

the result is instructors that don't really care about delivering proper instruction or advice or guidance etc... and why should they? when the office cleaner or gardener is probably earning more.

[helichris]

this is the problem with instructors only earning £50 per flight hour (when the student is paying £400-£600 per hour)

the result is instructors that don't really care about delivering proper instruction or advice or guidance etc... and why should they? when the office cleaner or gardener is probably earning more.
Bull****.

[Hughes500]

Hargreaves that is really disrespectful to those of us who are instructors, most really care about their students

[hargreaves99]

ok, maybe I was a bit harsh, but there is an industry-wide problem of instructor recruitment, retention and commitment resulting from poor pay that has not kept pace with inflation for the last 15-20 years.

[Hughes500]

depends really i pay my instructors between £ 250 and £ 400 a day

[hargreaves99]

SE UK R22/R44 schools pay £50-£55 per hr

nobody pays day rates

depends really i pay my instructors between £ 250 and £ 400 a day

[Bell_ringer]

It is not a new idea that young pilots trying to build their hours get pulled into instruction to get there, it is a stepping stone.
In these parts they are paid peanuts and will be on their way as soon as they are able to get a better gig.
Too many ppl's will find themselves being taught by someone waiting for the next nappy change.
It isn't that they don't care, they just don't have the passion for it as it is a means to an end and the student does not get the greatest experience.
Some operators build their business on this model.
Stuff what helicopter you want to learn in, go somewhere where you will be taught by someone with actual experience and where there is consistency with whom you fly.
Nothing worse than getting a new face every time you arrive, something also very popular these days.

[chopperchappie]

Robbiee
Imagine the situation that you start learning on a random aircraft that you really like the instructor (say a Enstrom or a Bell47 or whatever)
Sorry I did forget to quote the "J100 Flipiddy-Flop"
CC

[Hughes500]

Hargreaves

I pay day rates at my school ! If you come to learn to fly you book an instructor and aircraft for half a day 08:30 to 13:00 or 13:00 to 17:30 . I have found that way the student gets an unhurried amount of lessons , it just works better all round

[hargreaves99]

That certainly sounds like a better way of doing things. down south the instructor only gets paid when the engine starts. trouble is there are plenty of 'old timers' (ie over 60) instructing for a hobby, or people with 'proper' jobs, and that keeps wages depressed for everyone else.

[Robbiee]

That certainly sounds like a better way of doing things. down south the instructor only gets paid when the engine starts. trouble is there are plenty of 'old timers' (ie over 60) instructing for a hobby, or people with 'proper' jobs, and that keeps wages depressed for everyone else.

Those old timers and proper job side gig teaching guys are the best instructors though.

[jeepys]

I disagree that the old timers or 'proper jobbers' are keeping the instructional wages low. A proper jobber is likely to be paid between £400-£700 for a day rate and irrespective of what they are flying, are less likely to work for say £50 per hour/£250 per day. They may not need to instruct between proper jobbing but if they do, they probably want to be paid according to their experience and/or worth.
If they do need to instruct between proper jobbing then it's probably not a proper job!

If the instructor wages are to increase to a good standard then the aircraft hourly rate must increase.
Well done to Hughes500 for paying a respectable instructor rate. More schools should follow.

[hargreaves99]

Well, all I know is all the SE UK schools pay around £50 per flight hour and there are a lot of instructors who do it as a "hobby job". either they have other "non-flying" jobs (IT/property etc) or they work offshore in flying/airline jobs etc

While instructors are happy with £50 per hour, schools have no incentive to pay more

There is nowhere that will pay £400-£700 per day for an R22 FI

[hargreaves99]

in 2007 an R22 FI got £45 per hour - about 18% of the cost of an hour in an R22 (£250)

in 2023 an R22 FI gets £50 per hour - about 12% of the cost of an hour in an R22 (£400)

ie the cost of the aircraft has increased, yet the FI pay has reduced, not only in absolute terms, but even more in real terms too (ie accounting for inflation)






I disagree that the old timers or 'proper jobbers' are keeping the instructional wages low. A proper jobber is likely to be paid between £400-£700 for a day rate and irrespective of what they are flying, are less likely to work for say £50 per hour/£250 per day. They may not need to instruct between proper jobbing but if they do, they probably want to be paid according to their experience and/or worth.
If they do need to instruct between proper jobbing then it's probably not a proper job!

If the instructor wages are to increase to a good standard then the aircraft hourly rate must increase.
Well done to Hughes500 for paying a respectable instructor rate. More schools should follow.

[helichris]

in 2007 an R22 FI got £45 per hour - about 18% of the cost of an hour in an R22 (£250)

in 2023 an R22 FI gets £50 per hour - about 12% of the cost of an hour in an R22 (£400)

ie the cost of the aircraft has increased, yet the FI pay has reduced, not only in absolute terms, but even more in real terms too (ie accounting for inflation)
More bull****.

[hargreaves99]

Not BS, Go ask the schools in the SE UK what they pay R22 FIs and then come back here.

[Torquetalk]

50 quid is 5 pounds more than 45 Hargreaves. So your decrease in absolute terms point is hard to follow.

Also if Hughes 500 tells his pay rates, it would be respectful to assume that he is lying…

FIs are like any other job: Some are a bit duff, others very professional, irrespective of remuneration. The problem for new students is that they can’t tell the difference because the FI can do lots of things the student cant and BS is initially odorless.

[hargreaves99]

yes, you are correct, it's not a decrease in absolute terms, but given schools pay pretty much the same as 16 years ago.... with inflation over 16 years...now FIs should be getting about £75 per hour, not about £50

this is one of the many reasons why there are fewer and fewer people doing the FI(H) course

[Torquetalk]

I don’t think many would disagree that the general Ts & Cs in civilian flight instruction leave a lot to be desired. But it is also clear that few organisations or flight instructors have the leverage to do much about it.

[hargreaves99]

I agree. If offshore paid crap, nobody would do it.

And if flight instruction paid £80,000 a year, loads of people would be going into it.

Like most things in life, it all comes down to money.

As I said the trouble with flight instruction there is always an "old timer" or a "part-timer" who doesn't need the money and just wants a hobby, or a young chap desperate for hours, and this depresses wages.

[Hughes500]

50 quid is 5 pounds more than 45 Hargreaves. So your decrease in absolute terms point is hard to follow.

Also if Hughes 500 tells his pay rates, it would be respectful to assume that he is lying…

FIs are like any other job: Some are a bit duff, others very professional, irrespective of remuneration. The problem for new students is that they can’t tell the difference because the FI can do lots of things the student cant and BS is initially odorless.


Why would I lie ???? I have just taken on a new FI, his pay rate is £ 150 for half a day full day is £ 250 to go to £ 250 and £ 400 a day when not restricted . If you dont believe me I will PM you his personal phone number. Currently I have lots of work

[Hughes500]

As a side note it really gets my goat that instructors aren't paid more, after all what industry other than ours has the new guys teaching the newest. That in my humble opinion is why we see such a degradation in training standards. Example for you did an assessment ( I am an examiner )on some guys wanting a PPLH skills test.. They had never done EOL's to the ground in fact hadnt even done an auto with the engine set at idle ( instructor didnt think it was a good idea ) hadnt done stuck pedal landings, never turned the aircraft to look behind before transitioning away. Didnt know what a power check was before doing a recce of a confined area. I could go on

[hargreaves99]

Maybe it's different at your school, or different "up north", but in 20 years in this industry I have never ever heard any school pay a day rate for R22/R44 instructors. A salary...maybe (around £30,000 these days), or a monthly "retainer" and an hourly rate on top, but this is for permanent full-time FIs.

[Torquetalk]

Why would I lie ???? I have just taken on a new FI, his pay rate is £ 150 for half a day full day is £ 250 to go to £ 250 and £ 400 a day when not restricted . If you dont believe me I will PM you his personal phone number. Currently I have lots of work

My apologies, that is the 2nd daft typo I had overlooked. It should have read disrespectful. I completely accept that what you posted was true. Why wouldn’t it be?

As to your experience of students never having done certain exercises, I had the bizarre experience of doing type renewal requirement training with an FI who was not allowed to do autos or any other “emergencies”. In fact, type renewal training with less experienced FIs has left me goggle-eyed more than once.

[Bell_ringer]

£250 a day, presumably a working day is 8 hours, so £31.25 an hour.
Not exactly get rich and famous money in modern, inflationary terms.
And is that guaranteed or must the instructor suck it up when/if there is no flying to be had?

[Hughes500]

Bell Ringer
Instructors are self employed, if there is no flying then yes no pay but normally they are then on ground school with the students and on the same rate of pay.

[Bell_ringer]

In these parts they are, generally, salaried, so while paid peanuts, at least they have rights, benefits and some stability.

[[email protected]]

I expect there are plenty of ex-mil instructors like me with many thousands of hours instructional time who could pass on our experience but would have to go through a full FI (H) course to do so despite having held CFS qualifications for many years.

So you still have young and inexperienced instructors teaching newbie pilots - seems bonkers.

[hargreaves99]

Hourly paid is the model for all UK "down south" schools.

ie.

crap weather, can't fly = no pay
student turns up late, no time to fly/do ground = no pay
trial lesson doesn't turn up = no pay
aircraft goes tech = no pay

[admikar]

£250 a day, presumably a working day is 8 hours, so £31.25 an hour.
And self-employed, so any benefits and health insurance coming out of that?

[hargreaves99]

Some schools in the SE UK also will not pay for any type rating renewals for their freelance FIs, or even offer them "at cost".

[FLY 7]

As a ‘’Trainer’, surely it’s the Hughes/Schweizer 269/300 (preferably the ‘C’).

It’s the only one that was specifically designed and developed as a ‘trainer’ - most notably for the US Army as the Hughes TH-55

Seen it quoted that 30,000 US Army pilots trained on it, flying more than 3 Million hrs over three decades.

Dependable rotorhead and tail rotor, forgiving handling, robust undercarriage……..perfect prelude if progressing to the MD500 or EN480B.

Biggest issue likely to be the limited no of flying schools operating them.

[Reely340]

Learn in the R22. It's the hardest to fly and the cheapest to rent. Everything else will be easier to fly.
I like that! The S300C ist super easy to fly, still got my 120kg + the 100kg FI into the air at 28°C@1000', and after that enlongated winter pause some of my landings yesterday have me suspect that ground resonance in fact does not exist at all.
I keep memorizing to fly till all four corners have landed and still dump the collective too eary. I don't know how to get the S-300C to ground resonance, I'vee seen videos alright, but I can't imagine what I'd have to do get that going if it can take my ignorant eary collective dumps w/o any complaints. Maybe my habit of "****, again too hard to early i can do that better" and repeating the very landing right away may have masked any GR I would have expreienced, but when I train in the heli square I'm not passing time but want to get it right, hence I repeat until satisfied.
Keeping the ground resonance danger in mind has me continue to cling on to pitch and cyclic way past "landing", just in case it might start to wobble/rock, and has me on alert when spooling down RRPM, but I never even got close to any hint of GR.

That said I'd put in my vote for a rather mid-priced school, one that actually cares for security. My school recently got itself another S-300C from England. Inspection of the local maintanance pro showed quite a lot of faked "AD compliance claims" in the logs.
The schools boss fired up some UK lawyer and sued the hell out of the seller while having the mechanic "redo" all the missing AD and service works before letting us hire-by-to-hour clients even sit in it.
When I complan about a badly calibrated throttle correlator I can be sure it'll be fixed at the next 100h inspection, they really listen to my rants and act accordingly!
No idea how you would recognize that culture of a training school from the outside, though.
Maybe it helps that the school is "renting" its fleet "by the hour" from the actual AC owner.
Schools which actually own their machines might be inclined a little more to squeeze out more flying hours ?

As you might have guessed I truly recommend S-300C, especially for learning as they are great two seaters (forget the "middle seat" it does not exist) with an extremely forgiving design, furthermore a non-teeterring head means no mastbumping, fuel injection means no "cabri float bowl incidents" and of course no carburetor icing issues. For me the safest design flying today.

[Hughes500]

The most common way of getting ground resonance is to bang the aircraft down on its rear dampers first, even then normally caused by dampers being wrongly gassed ie over or under pressure

[Gustosomerset]

As a ‘’Trainer’, surely it’s the Hughes/Schweizer 269/300 (preferably the ‘C’).

It’s the only one that was specifically designed and developed as a ‘trainer’ - most notably for the US Army as the Hughes TH-55

Seen it quoted that 30,000 US Army pilots trained on it, flying more than 3 Million hrs over three decades.

Dependable rotorhead and tail rotor, forgiving handling, robust undercarriage……..perfect prelude if progressing to the MD500 or EN480B.

Biggest issue likely to be the limited no of flying schools operating them.

Completely agree. I learnt on a Hughes/Schweizer 269/300 and then graduated to MD500 rating. I guess one issue is that there are now, sadly, so few 269/300s around, as you say...

[airbus.skydriver]

As a side note it really gets my goat that instructors aren't paid more, after all what industry other than ours has the new guys teaching the newest. That in my humble opinion is why we see such a degradation in training standards. Example for you did an assessment ( I am an examiner )on some guys wanting a PPLH skills test.. They had never done EOL's to the ground in fact hadnt even done an auto with the engine set at idle ( instructor didnt think it was a good idea ) hadnt done stuck pedal landings, never turned the aircraft to look behind before transitioning away. Didnt know what a power check was before doing a recce of a confined area. I could go on

" I think that I'm one of those he's talking about.
I feel that I should give some perspective to what 'Hughes500' has said here.
Fact, I have 32 hrs rotary flying. My fixed wing hours are irrelevant.
I've flown 2hrs in a helicopter in the last 9 months. I presented myself to Hughes500 at a rotors running helicopter at an unfamiliar airfield. I strapped-in and he said "takeoff, go over there!". No checklist or time to settle-in so to speak
There was no exercise plan or pre flight brief given by Hughes500, I spent most of the 40 mins wondering who had control, and there was no debrief performed.
So before he shouts on about how crap I was, he should take a very long look in the mirror; I guarantee that he won't see a professional pilot looking back at himself!....So Hughes500, how about you set an appropriate standard and example before you belittle others from your mighty pedestal.
You are able, in your social/professional standing to be a role model; your actions speak louder than words. So give the bull**** a rest and practise what you preach! Act like a professional."

[500e]

Strange post
I was taught by H500 & dont recognize the person, I was told what we were going to do we went and did it then we talked about it.
I feel that you have taken a general grump personally, it is not the person I flew with.
I understand that a lot of FI dont do autos to the ground, (we always did at idle), we did stuck pedals always rotated to check we were not being snuck up on by some one/thing.
We did at least one of these exercises at least once a lesson.

[Hughes500]

Airbus

Tell me more of what I am supposed to have done or not, I have no idea who you are, when this happened or the circumstances so i can defend myself or apologise

[Hughes500]

Airbus know who you are now, so I dont need to apologise

[rodrod]

Hi,

I was offered instruction in either a R22 or R44, the former being more expensive, of course.
What are (if any) advantages of having flight instruction on each model?

Thank you

[Robbiee]

They both get you the same license, so unless you weigh more than 240 lbs, why pay more for it? I'd pick the 22.

[twinstar_ca]

why is the 22 more $$ than the 44

[212man]

why is the 22 more $$ than the 44
I assume he meant ‘latter’ or typed the numbers the wrong way around.

[malabo]

Like Robbiee says, it depends if you are paying out of your own pocket. The license on the R22 will cost less. I trained on the 22 for that reason.

[212man]

Like Robbiee says, it depends if you are paying out of your own pocket. The license on the R22 will cost less. I trained on the 22 for that reason.
But the poster says the 22 costs more - that’s the question

[ST&E]

I expect there are plenty of ex-mil instructors like me with many thousands of hours instructional time who could pass on our experience but would have to go through a full FI (H) course to do so despite having held CFS qualifications for many years.

So you still have young and inexperienced instructors teaching newbie pilots - seems bonkers.

​​​​​​​
Who taught you?

For context; I was taught by an inexperienced pilot - made it & grateful. Gainfully employed since 1996.
As an inexperienced instructor i taught some of the highest time S92 pilots in the world currently.

[Ovc000]

do it in the R22, cheapest and you get the same licence and there are more of them around so more choice in training places but also most likely more R22 at the place you go to, so you won't have to wait ages for a booking during training and later for self fly hire.

Doing it in the R22 will result spending less money compared doing it in a R44 or G2 so you have money left to do an extra typerating.
Also doing it in a R22 or G2 will result in appreciating max power limits, if you train in the R44 you'll never hit the limit which could suprise you on your first flight out with your mates (of course a good school will train for this).
The transition from a R22 to a R44 is very easy.

[Torquetalk]

if you train in the R44 you'll never hit the limit which could suprise you on your first flight out with your mates (of course a good school will train for this).

That’s an understated way of saying you might run out of power and have an acccident.

How many R44 pilots do performance planning when taking that extra weight? Or do any, ever?

A former instructor colleague didn’t even understand how to read the max MAP table, always setting the field elevation on the altimeter. So who taught him? And how many other people had he failed to teach performance planning in light pistons properly? :rolleyes:

[Luther Sebastian]

Really impressed you’ve met every R44 pilot and found them wanting at W&B, though strangely I can’t remember meeting you, or you might have realised there was at least one exception. Other exceptions might also be available.

[Torquetalk]

Really impressed you’ve met every R44 pilot and found them wanting at W&B, though strangely I can’t remember meeting you, or you might have realised there was at least one exception. Other exceptions might also be available.

Luther,

the “do any“ referred to the planning, not R44 pilots. And I was addressing the importance of performance planning in the R44, not weight and balance. Doing that bit won‘t tell you anything about whether the aircraft is within its performance envelope for the intended conditions.

A lot of R44 accidents are the result of running out of power having run out of airmanship. But this fairly common accident cause is not part of the SFARs applying to Robbies, nor was it part of my UK type rating/s. Sure you should have learnt this knowledge skill as part of a PPL(H), but it strikes me as a Cinderella subject that gets lip service as best. Ovc000’s point about training in the R44 with plenty of power in hand, then filling the seats and getting a “surprise“ is important.

[Luther Sebastian]

Now all of THAT, I can agree with. In fact I most frequently fly two up with passenger weight no more than 400lb, and even with full fuel, neither W&B nor power is going to be a problem over the East Anglian prairies that form the large part of my home turf. But I will be trying mountain flying next year and all those graphs are going to be pored over in extremely close detail.

[Hughes500]

Luther, I think you will find it is possible to run out of power on your own in an R 44, just takes bad flying .