Schaffner Lightning incident in news

[Finningley Boy]

Did ALIENS abduct a US pilot over the North Sea who took off from an RAF base in 1970? | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12082829/Did-ALIENS-abduct-pilot-North-Sea-took-RAF-base-1970.html)

Anyone familiar with the disappearance of USAF Captain Bill Schaffner 8 September 1970? Back in the news today.

FB

[ORAC]

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/211415-foxtrot-94-a.html#post2393731

[John Rogers]

John Nichol's latest book 'EJECT, EJECT' tells the story nicely so I won't repeat it here except that the UFO story is just that - a story. It's a moving part oif the Book which is replete with moving stories. I read John's book over this last weekend and it's excellent and 'NO' I'm not on commission, or a relative! I was lucky to get an advanced copy as it isn't available till 25 May (£20, by Simon & Schuster). It will be available everywhere, inc independent bookshops (which may have signed copies) &https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eject-John-Nichol/dp/139850940X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1682580927&sr=8-1

If you thought the Ejection Seat was a British invention of the post-war period then the book will correct that misconception. Moreover, John doesn't dwell at all on his own story but tells the story of the development of the 'bang seat' through tales of ejectees over the decades. And he doesn't just tell the stories of how they came to need to eject - or be ejected - as he deals with the aftermath of the events, the life changing or life-affirming nature of the events on the ejectees and their families.
As some of the publicity blurb says John Nichol 'tells the incredible story of the ejection seat through the dramatic and moving stories of those who used it, Because pulling the yellow-and-black ejection handle is just the start of the story', and I couldn''t agree more.

[chopper2004]

John Nichol's latest book 'EJECT, EJECT' tells the story nicely so I won't repeat it here except that the UFO story is just that - a story. It's a moving part oif the Book which is replete with moving stories. I read John's book over this last weekend and it's excellent and 'NO' I'm not on commission, or a relative! I was lucky to get an advanced copy as it isn't available till 25 May (£20, by Simon & Schuster). It will be available everywhere, inc independent bookshops (which may have signed copies) &https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eject-John-Nichol/dp/139850940X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1682580927&sr=8-1

If you thought the Ejection Seat was a British invention of the post-war period then the book will correct that misconception. Moreover, John doesn't dwell at all on his own story but tells the story of the development of the 'bang seat' through tales of ejectees over the decades. And he doesn't just tell the stories of how they came to need to eject - or be ejected - as he deals with the aftermath of the events, the life changing or life-affirming nature of the events on the ejectees and their families.
As some of the publicity blurb says John Nichol 'tells the incredible story of the ejection seat through the dramatic and moving stories of those who used it, Because pulling the yellow-and-black ejection handle is just the start of the story', and I couldn''t agree more.

Thought I recognised the article author ...(got two of his first signed books 'Point of Impact' and 'Vanishing Point' also met him at RAF Mildenhall AIR Fete 2000 while he was promoting his then latest thriller in the hangar.

Anyhow explanations for the closed cockpit would be appreciated, considering if he ejected, it should not be there, not like its one of the US QF- UAVs lol

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/05/14/20/70977919-12082829-image-a-1_1684090978437.jpg

cheers

[OvertHawk]

If you read the article it gives a full explanation of the closed canopy.

[John Rogers]

He didn't eject - seat failed due to engineering malfunction. Photo clearly shows top handle, etc. He unstrapped and 'climbed' out but didn't take PSP (dinghy, etc). Sea pressure closed canopy over time. Even in Summer you wouldn't last long in N Sea without decent protective kit, and it's not that unusual for bodies never to be recovered.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/203x153/f6_212690dc5bfeb064badbbbd8322c2863d6d97521.jpg

[John Nichol]

John Nichol's latest book 'EJECT, EJECT' tells the story nicely so I won't repeat it here except that the UFO story is just that - a story. It's a moving part oif the Book which is replete with moving stories. I read John's book over this last weekend and it's excellent and 'NO' I'm not on commission, or a relative! I was lucky to get an advanced copy as it isn't available till 25 May (£20, by Simon & Schuster). It will be available everywhere, inc independent bookshops (which may have signed copies) &https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eject-John-Nichol/dp/139850940X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1682580927&sr=8-1

If you thought the Ejection Seat was a British invention of the post-war period then the book will correct that misconception. Moreover, John doesn't dwell at all on his own story but tells the story of the development of the 'bang seat' through tales of ejectees over the decades. And he doesn't just tell the stories of how they came to need to eject - or be ejected - as he deals with the aftermath of the events, the life changing or life-affirming nature of the events on the ejectees and their families.
As some of the publicity blurb says John Nichol 'tells the incredible story of the ejection seat through the dramatic and moving stories of those who used it, Because pulling the yellow-and-black ejection handle is just the start of the story', and I couldn''t agree more.

Thank you for the kind words. Needless to say I don't write the Mail headline.... But the full story is indeed told in EJECT! EJECT! - I interviewed Michael Schaffner's 2 sons about their experiences, AM Sir Chris Coville who was launched to investigate and his wife who went to the Schaffner house. I used correspondence from the Shackleton pilot & the Squadron Commander. More importantly, I interviewed his widow about that terrible day, and the following weeks and months. This tragedy shaped the experiences of the family for 30+ years.
Because as I say in the book - ejecting is just the start of a journey.

[Fitter2]

Re the closed canopy - when working in a Lightning cockpit one had to use the manual pump to be able to operate the opening hydraulic jack, and then fit the canopy open lock. the canopy would slowly close on its own otherwise, leaving ones 'friends' outside gesturing 'can we do anything to help you', or go off for a coffee break. Having opened the canopy using the residual pressure in the system, it wouldn't have stayed open for log if the fuselage was upright.

[langleybaston]

He didn't eject - seat failed due to engineering malfunction. Photo clearly shows top handle, etc. He unstrapped and 'climbed' out but didn't take PSP (dinghy, etc). Sea pressure closed canopy over time. Even in Summer you wouldn't last long in N Sea without decent protective kit, and it's not that unusual for bodies never to be recovered.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/203x153/f6_212690dc5bfeb064badbbbd8322c2863d6d97521.jpg

If this is a reference to sea temp. as opposed to air temp., it is a little misleading. There is a huge lag in sea warming and winter cooling. Depending partly on river discharge into near shore waters, and latitude, the N Sea max is around early October, and the min around April.
Just as inland night min is around dawn and max around 1500 under clear skies.
Apologies if I am teaching egg-sucking of course.

[RichardJones]

What I don't understand, is the relatively little damage, to a high performance A/C having such high wing loading (16 ton brick) when hitting the water. At speed water is similiar to concrete, to displace.
Looking at the photos, that was possibly a "survivalable" touch down in view of the so little damage incurred.
Not normal, hence ejection seats of course.
There was no transmission from that aircraft indicating some problem. Not even "Ejecting..........." Nothing.
For the UFO sceptics, prove it was not, some sort of "intervention".
Why was the pilot not found? Considering there would have been flotation devices, light, radio etc., attached to him. No trace whatsoever.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Ordered your book John.
I ejected from a JP IN 1963, ( Dual, my QFI ordered me to eject, I did not hesitate ! ) things didnt go exactly to plan but I survived, just !
60 years ago on April 18 the, JP4 XP 635,
Terribly sad situation.I was flying the Canberra from BK on the day of the accident, exercise Black Eagle,IIR correctly, dont know if he was wearing an immersion suit, but without it, and no dinghy, little chance of survival.

[Tarnished]

Richard, you need to read (buy) the book. It tells all. The pilot was new to the Lightning force but an experienced fighter pilot. He was launched on a dark a dismal night on a TACEVAL exercise to intercept a slow moving Shackleton. He got into a bit of bother and tried to eject, but due to an engineering issue the seat failed to go. He then impacted with the surface of the North Sea at about 180 kts. Punishing but IMO survivable. He unstrapped, opened the canopy and climbed out leaving his life raft in the aircraft. True he should have had life jacket, personal locator beacon and some other survival aids. Who knows what it any injuries he had but I can personally testify that the North Sea at 13 deg C brings on hypothermia within the hour if you are not in a dinghy. Try running a 13 deg C bath and sitting in it without any injuries. There you go, no need to buy the book for that chapter but trust me there are plenty of other chapters that will catch you attention.

[Video Mixdown]

For the UFO sceptics, prove it was not, some sort of "intervention".
So in the face of the entirely rational explanations above you still prefer the little green men?

[RichardJones]

I don't recall saying I believe in "little green men". So that is a distortion.
if you have witnessed what I have witnessed, you wouldn't be so hasty to ridicule. That is for sure.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I don't recall saying I believe in "little green men". So that is a distortion.
if you have witnessed what I have witnessed, you wouldn't be so hasty to ridicule. That is for sure.

Please keep allusions to being probed by beings from Uranus to Jet Blast.

[SWBKCB]

I don't recall saying I believe in "little green men". So that is a distortion.


For the UFO sceptics, prove it was not, some sort of "intervention".

So what sort of interpretation are we meant to make of this comment? What sort of "intervention" are you referring to?

[Finningley Boy]

Ordered your book John.
I ejected from a JP IN 1963, ( Dual, my QFI ordered me to eject, I did not hesitate ! ) things didnt go exactly to plan but I survived, just !
60 years ago on April 18 the, JP4 XP 635,
Terribly sad situation.I was flying the Canberra from BK on the day of the accident, exercise Black Eagle,IIR correctly, dont know if he was wearing an immersion suit, but without it, and no dinghy, little chance of survival.
I haven't read John's book yet, but was wondering if the story of Flt Lt Tony Doige was in it. Same year I believe, earlier, in a Lightning of 11 Sqn, operating from Leuchars during a night exercise. Flt Lt Doige had altered hi immersion suit at the cuffs. It was no longer a good enough seal. After ejecting, and only about five miles off the coast and having activated his SARBE (if I recall) he was dead by the time the promptly scrambled SAR Whirlwind (also from Leuchars) got to him.

FB

[LateArmLive]

I don't recall saying I believe in "little green men". So that is a distortion.
if you have witnessed what I have witnessed, you wouldn't be so hasty to ridicule. That is for sure.

This could be fun....please elaborate!

[megan]

Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/652740-schaffner-lightning-incident-news.html#post11435277)
I don't recall saying I believe in "little green men". So that is a distortion.English comprehension was part of our school education, so please elaborate what your following statement was meant to convey.For the UFO sceptics, prove it was not, some sort of "intervention"Seems to me you believe in aliens having a hand, I'm a UFO sceptic and you're asking me to prove they didn't have a hand in the accident..

[ehwatezedoing]

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/211415-foxtrot-94-a.html#post2393731

Alternatively RichardJones if you had click on the link above provided by ORAC from an old topic on the exact same subject. And taken the time to read it from start to finish (A lot is explained) This thread would not have turned into a hamster wheel's one.

There is no Unicorn Flying Object/Intervension involved.

Zero, none, nada.

[John Nichol]

I haven't read John's book yet, but was wondering if the story of Flt Lt Tony Doige was in it. Same year I believe, earlier, in a Lightning of 11 Sqn, operating from Leuchars during a night exercise. Flt Lt Doige had altered hi immersion suit at the cuffs. It was no longer a good enough seal. After ejecting, and only about five miles off the coast and having activated his SARBE (if I recall) he was dead by the time the promptly scrambled SAR Whirlwind (also from Leuchars) got to him.

FB
That story isn't in the book FB - though I remember very well reading the Accident Summary (& possibly Air Clues?). Very sad case.
Needless to say, it was possible to cover only a fraction of the 10s (possibly 100s?) of thousands of worldwide ejections. The ones I chose tend to illustrate my concept of a 'journey' - or which illustrate how the systems developed.

There is one about 'adapted' flying kit featuring Charlie Neel - the USAAF exchange officer who preceded William Schaffner - a sortie which also involved Sir Chris Coville who then also features in the Schaffner story. Charlie is a wonderful fella who had been shot down in Vietnam a few months earlier, ejected and been rescued amidst an astonishing combat recovery effort.

His co-pilot that day - Guy Gruters - is a major character in the book when he is shot down for a 2nd time a few weeks later......

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x853/misty_over_dong_hoi_nvn_site_of_first_shootdown_eb755fc743e9 e6a6e8e7e6bef55b26849aca190d.jpg

[Fonsini]

Ordered your book John.
I ejected from a JP IN 1963, ( Dual, my QFI ordered me to eject, I did not hesitate ! ) things didnt go exactly to plan but I survived, just !
60 years ago on April 18 the, JP4 XP 635.

Do you mind if I ask what your ejection injuries were ? There is often mention of “minor injuries” following an ejection and I have always wondered if there is any consistency to them (back pain, facial injuries etc) and just how minor “minor” actually is. Apologies if I should take this to PM. Happy you made it out.

[John Nichol]

Do you mind if I ask what your ejection injuries were ? There is often mention of “minor injuries” following an ejection and I have always wondered if there is any consistency to them (back pain, facial injuries etc) and just how minor “minor” actually is. Apologies if I should take this to PM. Happy you made it out.

In some of the incidents I cover in the book, injuries range from nothing - people who gather up their parachutes and head to the bar. Through minor cuts and bruises. Into 'minor' fractures. Then catastrophic life-changing injuries like a 'neck snapped as though by a professional hangman'.

This is a pic from the book of Neil J who snapped both his legs after a mid-air. Jolly painful........

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/689x1166/neil_jn_after_the_crash_crop_c63364d334f48d31861406ac1771312 85b886438.jpg

[charliegolf]

Do you mind if I ask what your ejection injuries were ? There is often mention of “minor injuries” following an ejection and I have always wondered if there is any consistency to them (back pain, facial injuries etc) and just how minor “minor” actually is. Apologies if I should take this to PM. Happy you made it out.

I seem to recall (dimly) that a major injury was deemed one that caused the individual to be unfit to serve in role for more than 21 days. Help me out someone...

CG

[RetiredBA/BY]

Do you mind if I ask what your ejection injuries were ? There is often mention of “minor injuries” following an ejection and I have always wondered if there is any consistency to them (back pain, facial injuries etc) and just how minor “minor” actually is. Apologies if I should take this to PM. Happy you made it out.
Injuries were very minor, swollen goolies, that said, I still fathered two gorgeous daughters !
After this I was VERY careful how I routed my negative G strap !
Suffered intermittent back pain ever since, but Boeing seats were much more comfortable !
80 FPS guns were very harsh on the spine, but they were life savers .