Moving the black dog’s grave?

[snapper41]

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23515416.dambusters-dogs-remains-moved-raf-marham/

[ShyTorque]

When I was based at Scampton over thirty years ago the rumour was that the grave didn’t actually contain Gibson’s dog’s remains because they were under one of the buildings built sometime after the initial burial, the station gymnasium iirc.

[ahwalk01]

Why would you remove remains due to potentially housing migrants. It doesn't follow.

[Wensleydale]

When I was based at Scampton over thirty years ago the rumour was that the grave didn’t actually contain Gibson’s dog’s remains because they were under one of the buildings built sometime after the initial burial, the station gymnasium iirc.

Rumour control at Waddington (tales from old Vulcan crew): in the unpleasantness between IX at Waddington and 617 at Scampton over the possession of the Tirpitz bulkhead (who did sink it spat), a raid was sent from Waddington one night to dig up the dog and hold its remains hostage until the bulkhead was delivered back. By all accounts, the "grave" was empty. The story goes that the railings went around the grave to discourage further digging attempts.

As an aside, one would imagine the fallout at Scampton had the dog's old headstone been in place when the asylum seekers arrived.......

[meleagertoo]

Why would you remove remains due to potentially housing migrants. It doesn't follow.
I'd have thought the answer pretty obvious in this crazy day and age.
Fear of accusations of racism/religious offence to the new inmates...

[ShyTorque]

Maybe the name “Digger” is more appropriate than first thought…

[Barksdale Boy]

Each new crew on 617 had to tend the grave in front of the squadron offices (did it myself in 1978), typically for about six weeks. Every one knew, however, that he had been buried somewhere near the airmen's mess.

[Blue_Circle]

As an aside, one would imagine the fallout at Scampton had the dog's old headstone been in place when the asylum seekers arrived.......

I'd have thought the answer pretty obvious in this crazy day and age.
Fear of accusations of racism/religious offence to the new inmates...

Really? Or fear of someone closer to home being offended on their behalf?

[Davef68]

Why would you remove remains due to potentially housing migrants. It doesn't follow.
I think it's more to do with loss of control over what happens to the memorial - being on an 'open' site would leave it open to vandalism

[Herod]

I have a bit of an issue about this. It wasn't a racist remark in context, but rather the name of a much-loved dog. In this day and age, I wouldn't dream of using the word in a derogatory way, but YOU CAN'T GO CHANGING HISTORY. We now have the ridiculous situation where, in the last iteration I saw, the dog is referred to as "Trigger", but the code for the breach is, "Tigger". Offensive to the fans of Winnie the Pooh?

[stumblefingers]

Each new crew on 617 had to tend the grave in front of the squadron offices (did it myself in 1978), typically for about six weeks. Every one knew, however, that he had been buried somewhere near the airmen's mess.
On my first tour in 1969 on 617 Sqn at Scampton, the most junior officer was appointed OIC the grave, keeping it tidy until somebody more junior arrived. It was not an arduous task, and came with the bonus of a very smart tankard kept in the Officers' Mess bar, engraved with the sqn crest and the words "For the use of the most junior officer". I can confirm that the new station gymnasium was built over the site of the original grave sometime after the war.

[212man]

Really? Or fear of someone closer to home being offended on their behalf?
Another example of offense gone nuts….(don’t watch if easily offended by language!)
https://youtu.be/FHDeVmjRb0E

[NutLoose]

I heard the rumours that it was empty too, maybe a case in this instance of barking up the wrong hole. still they could always have a back up dogs remains to chuck in the hole...

[ShyTorque]

Maybe the most appropriate place for the headstone is now the RAF Museum. Obviously, with the dog's name chiselled off and replaced by a subtitle...not.

[NutLoose]

Locals are not happy.

https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2023/05/betrayal-again-outcry-at-rafs-plan-to-move-grave-of-guy-gibsons-dog/

Plans to move the grave of Wing Commander Guy Gibson’s dog from RAF Scampton to RAF Marham have been called a “kick in the teeth” for the community.

The RAF applied to West Lindsey District Council to move the grave from the hanger to the current base for the 617 Squadron in Norfolk.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Locals are not happy.

https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2023/05/betrayal-again-outcry-at-rafs-plan-to-move-grave-of-guy-gibsons-dog/


Imagine how unhappy they'll be when they discover that there is nothing there to move.

Best place for the none-dog to go would be Woodhall Spa (Dambuster's Memorial) . Not much chance of turning that location into an Asylum Centre. Marham on the other hand will be on a Home Office list of potential sites - not near the top yet, but it'll on a list.

[rog747]

The lovely Petwood Hotel nearby also could be considered - Twas the official Squadrons Officers 'mess'' IIRC >?

[Ken Scott]

The ‘need’ to move the grave was an issue when Scampton was up for disposal in the 1990s shortly after I went through CFS there. The story I heard at the time was that the dog was pretty unpopular with the ‘erks’ as he tended to crap everywhere, when Gibson tasked one of his NCOs with burying the dog at midnight, as they were attacking the first dam, he in turn detailed a couple of airmen for the task.

They simply chucked the body over a hedge outside the camp then disturbed the earth in the flowerbed and reported ‘job done’.

So the gravesite is just symbolic. To move it though does seem unnecessary, if the migrants really took offence (should they even understand the significance) then it could serve as a first adjustment to life in a new land, one with its own history that shouldn’t be wiped away in a frenzy to accommodate people that have illegally entered the country.

[pr00ne]

Imagine how unhappy they'll be when they discover that there is nothing there to move.

Best place for the none-dog to go would be Woodhall Spa (Dambuster's Memorial) . Not much chance of turning that location into an Asylum Centre. Marham on the other hand will be on a Home Office list of potential sites - not near the top yet, but it'll on a list.

Nonsense! As the only UK F-35 base with investment just announced for the construction of infrastructure for the 3rd F-35 Lightning squadron Marham will NOT be on any such list.

[Expatrick]

So the gravesite is just symbolic. To move it though does seem unnecessary, if the migrants really took offence (should they even understand the significance) then it could serve as a first adjustment to life in a new land, one with its own history that shouldn’t be wiped away in a frenzy to accommodate people that have illegally entered the country.

Could be an opportunity to fast track the asylum process.
Single question: Are you offended by this piece of heritage?

If answer yes, an immediate free transfer to Rwanda.
If answer no, application may proceed normally.

[NutLoose]

Really Pr00ne? Most camps the RAF tended to shut often had significant amounts of dosh spent on them before they closed... Look at St Athan for one.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Nonsense! As the only UK F-35 base with investment just announced for the construction of infrastructure for the 3rd F-35 Lightning squadron Marham will NOT be on any such list.

It may seem nonsense to you pr00ne, but no one seems to know the thought processes of our "leaders" these days. Anyone at the HO who was tasked to survey potential sites will have failed in their duty if they had not considered ALL options.
ergo... Marham will be on a list. Not near the top I grant you, but it will be on it.

How many times have we seen massive investment in a base brushed aside as it gets closed for being "too expensive to maintain".

[chevvron]

Really Pr00ne? Most camps the RAF tended to shut often had significant amounts of dosh spent on them before they closed... Look at St Athan for one.
Bovingdon was another.
Mid 1968, all 4 T2 hangars were re-clad.
End of 1969 airfeld closed.

[GeeRam]

Bovingdon was another.
Mid 1968, all 4 T2 hangars were re-clad.
End of 1969 airfeld closed.

Wasn't Middleton St George another, massive upgrade including new runway for Lightning operation, only for them to depart elsewhere and the base closed down just a few years later?

[pr00ne]

It may seem nonsense to you pr00ne, but no one seems to know the thought processes of our "leaders" these days. Anyone at the HO who was tasked to survey potential sites will have failed in their duty if they had not considered ALL options.
ergo... Marham will be on a list. Not near the top I grant you, but it will be on it.

How many times have we seen massive investment in a base brushed aside as it gets closed for being "too expensive to maintain".

It’s the only UK Lightning airfield, it’s not going to close, despite what occasionally happened over 50 years ago!

[NutLoose]

It’s the only UK Lightning airfield, it’s not going to close, despite what occasionally happened over 50 years ago!

It’s the only UK Hercules airfield, blah blah blah, adios Lynham.

Is it on the electoral patch of a leading politician, if not it's fair game

[Expatrick]

It’s the only UK Hercules airfield, blah blah blah, adios Lynham.

Is it on the electoral patch of a leading politician, if not it's fair game

Leading politician? Liz Truss!

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

You don't need to go back that far. Linton had a runway refurb and a brand new tower, it was the only BFJT training base we had but it closed and tasking moved.



Read my post again. I have not said Marham will close. I said Marham WILL be on a list of potential sites for consideration.
At the moment there are more favourable options, there are cheaper options but we only know this because someone, somewhere will be doing the sums.

If and when the cost of housing asylum seekers exceeds the cost to move the UK Lightning fleet from Marham then it will be on cards.

[downsizer]

Vastly different infra requirements for F35 that no other platforms currently have. Sadly Marhell won't close.

[Arabella]

I have no idea if Nigger is actually buried in the grave site, so many theories. I do know that the site being used now is a fake site. I worked as a civilian at RAF Scampton in the 70's and was taken to see Nigger's Grave which was right outside Gibson's window not as far away from the building now shown in photo's. It also had a small single white chain link around it, I remember it clearly. I saw the original plaque too. Then a few years ago I donated some of my Uncle's memorabilia from his time in Bomber command to RAF Scampton museum and heritage centre which has now closed down. It was at this time I saw Nigger's "new" gravesite put there for the sake of the visitors with the new plaque on. I was appalled at this plaque change and also the lie about where Nigger's grave actually is. Why do we need to do this to appeal to a minority? The majority are no longer listened to.
By the way, if anyone knows where the memorabilia from RAF Scampton's museum and heritage centre has been moved to, I would be most grateful to know. My Uncle's stuff was precious to me and I let Scampton Museum have it as I thought it would be looked after and cared for when I wasn't around. Emails and phone calls...no response.

[Asturias56]

we're way off topic I think.......

[Arabella]

Apologies if it is on the incorrect thread, I'm new here. There is mention of the dog a few messages up which gave me the impression I was on the correct site. Also the title of the postings were called, "Moving the black dogs grave" which made me think it was relevant.

[Herod]

Arabella, Thank you for using the correct name. However, I rather think your post may be removed.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Arabella, Thank you for using the correct name.
Spot on. I, like many, are fed up of history both good and bad being airbrushed.

However, I rather think your post may be removed.
Shame on anyone who does. They become another censorship lemming

[bugged on the right]

You can delete in print but the dog's name will live forever.

[Arabella]

If is is removed for stating a historical fact then that is a shame but so be it. The post was sent innocently, it was the dogs name after all. I refuse to alter history.

[Saintsman]

If is is removed for stating a historical fact then that is a shame but so be it. The post was sent innocently, it was the dogs name after all. I refuse to alter history.

It was the dog's name and you managed to get it in several times. Pushing your luck I think.

[pasta]

If is is removed for stating a historical fact then that is a shame but so be it. The post was sent innocently, it was the dogs name after all. I refuse to alter history.
Then why post under an assumed name? ;-)

[ShyTorque]

Then why post under an assumed name? ;-)

Why not? We are all posting on what was was initially conceived as an anonymous forum for all sorts of stuff, much of it being politically incorrect pilot banter, some twenty eight years ago. I was there at the time. The forum rules have changed, but none of them state that posts have to be made under one’s real name.

[Arabella]

Four times, I've just counted. If it was done in any sort of hate or derogatory way then I would understand but it wasn't. It was an innocent post giving what bit of info I know and asking for info and yes, using the the dogs correct name.. Why are we airbrushing history? I was reading this site before I posted, it is not an abusive site from what I saw, if it was, I would not have posted. History is not abuse and I refuse to change history. I apologise of you felt my use of the name was offensive or excessive but I refuse to use a made up name. The use of the name is not directed at any person, merely the name of a dog in the passage of time.

[bugged on the right]

You must be joking pasta. Have your house vandalised your neighbourhood burned and the local shops looted.

[Arabella]

Arabella is my nickname, used by family. I have no problem stating who I am.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Shy Torque, how right you are! (Even though I post as originally named!)

[pasta]

Why not? We are all posting on what was was initially conceived as an anonymous forum for all sorts of stuff, much of it being politically incorrect pilot banter, some twenty eight years ago. I was there at the time. The forum rules have changed, but none of them state that posts have to be made under one’s real name.
Sorry, not very well expressed. What I should have said was that if making an innocent post, why create a new account to do it?

Edit: And if you helped instigate this forum, thank you very much Sir! It's an odd and eccentric community, and all the better for it; I'm honoured to be a tiny part of it.

[langleybaston]

There is an under-discussed sub-text there, surely?

That is :
Is air-brushing history ever a moral or virtuous act?

If so, how do we differentiate between good airbrushing and bad airbrushing? Dog names and grave inscriptions for example.

As matters stand we have the twee phrases "n-word", "c-word", "p-word". There may eventuallly be another 23 varieties, or even N1, N2 etc. These "words" have trodden in the sanitised footsteps of bogs, Crappers and khazis through loo, lavatory, WC, toilet to the unspeakably coy "bathroom".

Surely much better to write the words, say the words and always acknowledge that then was then, now is now and we [most of us who aspire to decency] have moved on.

If not, we risk bequeathing a saccharine sweet view of the past to the future. That is not progress, but dishonesty.

[ShyTorque]

It was not done at my instigation but I am certain that I was the first helicopter pilot on the forum, in 1995. I believe my member number, which we all had, was in the low seventies. I posted under a different assumed name back then, because of my specific job role at the time.

[kghjfg]

I knew someone who flew from Scampton at the end of the war when 617 moved out.

He told me that even then the grave was not correctly marked, and if you served there, you knew where the dog was buried in reality.

I didn’t push on where, as he didn’t seem to want to say.

This was years ago, I was told, not recently.

He’s no longer with us, but the stories he could tell.. mind boggling,. and I genuinely don’t believe he was embellishing them.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Arabella

You need to try

[email protected]

Or
[email protected]

They may be able to help you get your loaned items back.

[langleybaston]

It’s a Dog. The only people that care this much about someone’s dog and are so fixated on its name and preserving it have got to be the casual racists. The name was derogatory then as it is now and it is absurd to think that the dog has any link to the success of the raids.

In fact, the linking of the two things in my opinion serves to divide and discredit the effort and sacrifice that went into the raids. Get over it. There were hundreds of dogs on airfields all over bomber command and fighter command but nobody cares where their bones are now? Or are is there actually a huge shift to find the remains of every pet across the RAF during the period? Focus on the crews and the efforts and leave the casual racism out of it.

It should be uncomfortable to know that such divisive names were used for pets when the whole commonwealth were putting their lives on the line to fight the Nazis. Unacceptable then and unacceptable now.

There, I said it.

Actually we were fighting the Germans ........
I am not at all sure that the peope who bombed me out of my home, machine-gunned me as I ran for cover in Hove, or sent doodlebugs to Sussex were Nazis. That is modern airbrushing of history.

[Gne]

Poor dears Fancy attending a tutorial about a particular word and having the tutor actually use the word.
Tutor’s use of N-word was ‘academic freedom’
Nicole Precel
A Monash University teaching associate who was suspended after using the ‘N-word’ in class returned to tutorials on Thursday night, after an investigation found he used the racial slur under ‘academic freedom’.
Gary Lacey, who has worked at the university for 23 years, was reported for using the word in a class ‘From Freud to Friends: Ethnic Identity in Popular Culture’ in late February.
At the time, students were offended and complained.
In an email to students, course coordinator Associate Professor David Slucki said the university had ‘‘fully investigated the matter’’ and found that Lacey did not engage in misconduct and ‘‘has not breached university policy around behaviours in the workplace and integrity and respect’’.
‘‘As such, Dr Lacey has been reinstated to his role, effective immediately,’’ Slucki wrote.
Lacey told The Age at the time of the suspension that he apologised to his students when he realised they were upset and said he didn’t mean to offend them.
He said he was ‘‘intimately involved’’ with Black African culture and that his wife was Kenyan.
‘‘I have apologised profusely. I’m genuinely deeply sorry I’ve offended people,’’ Lacey said.
‘‘This was an academic discussion – it’s not the case of a racist running around using racist language. I did make a commitment TO change that behaviour.’’
Lacey said the incident happened in a class where they were discussing the use and history of the word, and had given context.
One student, who asked not to be identified, and is in the course but wasn’t in Lacey’s class during the incident, said she was disappointed by the decision.
‘‘I think it’s a big disruption to the class for the last two weeks of semester to change tutors again. And the whole process with the investigation took around 10 weeks, which I think is pretty poor.’’
On social media, some students have been threatening to boycott Lacey’s classes.
Monash Student Association president Sebastian Schultz said students were concerned about Lacey being reinstated, and still angry about the original incident but he said some were also understanding when it came to the university’s decision.
‘‘There are a few people who are really concerned about the lack of transparency and that’s really what we are concerned about more than anything else,’’ he said.
In a statement, the MSA said it had reached out to the university to find out how this was determined AND what evidence was presented.
‘‘Students deserve to understand the consequences that were imposed, and how the university is working to ensure such offensive behaviour is not exhibited by staff again,’’ he said.
‘‘While the MSA acknowledges the importance of academic freedom, Monash must guarantee its students a learning environment free from prejudice, with transparent consequences for anyone who uses discriminatory language or behaviour.’’
A Monash University spokesperson said a tutor had returned to work after an investigation into students complaints about his conduct in February this year.
‘‘The investigation found the employee exercised academic freedom within the meaning of clause10.2 of the Agreement and the corresponding Freedom of Speech and Academic Freedom Policy, anddid not engage in any misconduct,’’ she said.
‘‘The employee fully cooperated with the investigation, has offered apologies to the students and has agreed to modify language.’’

[SASless]

In fact, the linking of the two things in my opinion serves to divide and discredit the effort and sacrifice that went into the raids. Get over it. There were hundreds of dogs on airfields all over bomber command and fighter command but nobody cares where their bones are now? Or are is there actually a huge shift to find the remains of every pet across the RAF during the period? Focus on the crews and the efforts and leave the casual racism out of it.

History is what it was and what it is.....sometimes not liked for any number of reasons some of which are quite unfathomable.

The use of a Dog's Name today seems to get some folks knickers in a wad....no matter the context of the use of a six letter word....one that was used as a Military Code Word announcing the success of a very costly but important bombing raid of WWII.

That it was the name of the Commanding Officer's Black Lab Dog, an Aviator that made a tremendous contribution to the victory of that War cannot be ignored or displaced or altered. He named his dog what. he did and that is historical fact as was the use of the dog's name following the raid.

That name was used to identify the dog...only the dog and was not used in any way to suggest any kind of racial slur towards anyone here or any ethnic group in the post some are taking issue with.

I would suggest some of you need to wind your necks in and get over whatever super sensitivities you have about it.

When that form of address is used in reference to any person or ethnic group at these forums I am quite sure a large hammer shall fall on the individual that does so.

What other terms/words/phrases would you sensitive types like to see stricken from the English language and what justification would you offer for that.....the fact that you just don't like it is not going to cut it?

[Asturias56]

from the heat generated on here you'd think the dog flew the mission and maybe was awarded a VC

It's a dead dog in every sense of the word

[Senior Pilot]

from the heat generated on here you'd think the dog flew the mission and maybe was awarded a VC

It's a dead dog in every sense of the word

As is this thread, with interpretations of word usage from 80 years ago being somewhat distorted by the mores of the 2020's over which there will never be agreement.

Thread closed for disappointing thread drift.