$165,000 debt and no flying job. Advice?

[grant.lebronte]

I'm a little worried about my age (40s) and the accumulated debt I've racked up from flight training here in Australia. Recently, the GA Ready course has added another (almost) $5,000 to the total bill. It appears as though I'm not the only one and in Australia, we seem to be going down a similar trajectory as the United States with the student loan crisis. I've watched countless videos on YouTube and dozens of stories of students in the USA that have 10s of thousands, sometimes 100s of thousands of dollars in debt, and cannot get a "first job" in their chosen field and are working at Denny's to just pay for the interest on these loans!

As of the 1st of June, the Australian government is going to apply a 7% indexation to loans. The highest it's been in over 30 years. That means if any student pilot (or student in general) is servicing a $130,000 student loan from flight training. Their "interest" (indexation) will be just over $9,000! The total loan to pay will be closer to $140,000! That's around $760 per month just in interest. Yes I understand we have repayment thresholds but this is a silent financial killer as the indexation will keep adding up the total amount payable. It means not being able to get a house loan as a bank will factor in your student loan debt when they determine how much to loan you. I'll be honest and say that I never carefully thought this through and feel a bit of a death spiral of debt looming. I feel like I am not the only one. And worse, the lack of "first jobs" in aviation here in Australia means going back to a Call Centre job!!! There are dozens of freshly minted CPLers that I met in my voyage up North and NE and none of them can get a job except the rare one that slips through the cracks and gets checked to line on a C210 or something. I think for every 1 that gets a first GA job, there is another 10-20 that miss out. I wish this stat was passed through flying schools so everyone can make an informed decision before committing to a HUGE student debt.

This is partly a vent but also genuinely asking for ideas of how one can get a first flying job and at least get out of the Call Centre industry (for good).

G

[runway16]

The issue that GL has commented on is now becoming known to a lot of flight students who took up the so called student loan. Please note it is not a Government loan but a loan of Tax payers monies.
Flight schools are very quick to sell the loan to potential flight students with the comment 'just pay it back when you get that first job rather than wait until you reach the
magic figure that the tax man then says pay up'.
What the flight schools do not spell out out is that not every student who gets a CPL is going to snap up a flight job in the short term.
GL has told us the true picture and that is that only a small number of new CPL pilots are going to get a flying job in the short term, others may be hung out to dry for months and not get a job. In summary there are more new CPLs than there are pilots jobs waiting to be filled.
Be warned.
R

[SOPS]

Can I ask.. what is a GA ready Course ????

[SITTINGBULL]

165K?? Smells like one of those half-baked FTA integrated courses to me.

Anyway, it's too late now for you to be worrying about your debt. Take a breath of fresh air and look forward with an open mind.

Personally I did a non-integrated CPL to ensure I came out with a total time close to insurance minimums then self funded and MEA IR and about 8 hours on a 210 off the east coast. I made some good mates along the way who got a start with a couple of operators which paved the way for me to get a meet and greet. There was a bit of a gap between end of training and my first GA gig. During that 10ish months it seemed there was no end in sight but looking back it really was a very small amount of time (others waited longer). I visitied Darwin a few times, then eventually moved there to door knock and go out on the piss with the other pilots.

Take it easy and enjoy your time, keep hitting up those operators with CVs, they'll crack eventually (It also helps when a line checked driver is also nagging the CP to give you a start).

So once you do get a start (and you will) just remember that in GA you can't gain points, you can only loose them. (I.e. Don't go being a brown noser, it's poor form and disrespects the profession and not to mention your peers, and dont whinge at all becuase squeaky wheels don't get any oil in GA ...I mean that both figuratively and literally :}).

RE: Your debt; It wont be long and youll have the option to shoot off to the U.S. and earn more than enough to sort it out... but mark my words, if you stay in Australia it won't ******* happen.

[Cloudee]

Can I ask.. what is a GA ready Course ????
Something like this I guess. Probably stuff you should already have covered with a good CPL school.
https://www.flycommand.com.au/ga-ready Our Course Includes- 5hrs flight training

- 2 x 1-hour pre flight briefings

- Briefing on Cessna 200-series aircraft systems

- Letter of recommendation signed by our Chief Pilot (provided you meet the standard)

- CV/Resume character reference

Flight training includes:

​

- General handling and emergencies

- Emergency gear extension
- Circuits (normal, flapless, glide, EFATO)

- Navigation and descent planning (Class G, D, C)
- Effective approach briefs

- Engine management (particularly important in hot climates)

- Leaning (LOP/ROP operations)
- General plane/passenger and cargo loading management

We maintain strong relationships with various GA operators. We've had dozens of pilots go on to operators and successfully found work thanks to our training and recommendation. Those operators include:


- Wrightsair
- Chinta Air

- Arkaroola
- Lincoln Air Charter

[rudestuff]

If you're living in Adelaide then I'm presuming you're Australian? Why not just go to the US and get a job? There are thousands...

[SOPS]

Something like this I guess. Probably stuff you should already have covered with a good CPL school.
https://www.flycommand.com.au/ga-readyOur Course Includes- 5hrs flight training

- 2 x 1-hour pre flight briefings

- Briefing on Cessna 200-series aircraft systems

- Letter of recommendation signed by our Chief Pilot (provided you meet the standard)

- CV/Resume character reference

Flight training includes:

​

- General handling and emergencies

- Emergency gear extension
- Circuits (normal, flapless, glide, EFATO)

- Navigation and descent planning (Class G, D, C)
- Effective approach briefs

- Engine management (particularly important in hot climates)

- Leaning (LOP/ROP operations)
- General plane/passenger and cargo loading management

We maintain strong relationships with various GA operators. We've had dozens of pilots go on to operators and successfully found work thanks to our training and recommendation. Those operators include:


- Wrightsair
- Chinta Air

- Arkaroola
- Lincoln Air Charter.

Seems like a good way to remove money from people.

[Clare Prop]

Everyone is being robbed except the flying school owners. Us the taxpayers, the students that have been sold a non existant dream and chucked on the scrapheap with a huge debt before they have even begun.

It should have been scrapped when the owner of Soar went onto the rich list and then left the country, leaving a trail of destruction.

When is there going to be a royal commission into this complete rort of taxpayers money?

I'd like to know who is on this gravy train. Following the money could be very interesting.

[Clare Prop]

I believe the number of starters who actually get to finish these sorts of courses and get a job is around 5%. Also that the token starters fall off the course quite early on, make of that what you will. Recently I heard from someone who is working for a well known brand that of one cohort that recently went through, only ONE got a job with the same brand,

It should be required under consumer rights for this to be disclosed.

[Mach E Avelli]

.

Seems like a good way to remove money from people.
Discussed at length in previous threads, with the consensus being it’s a WOFTAM. Also plenty of advice about how entry level pilots improve their chances if they can offer other skills. Bus licence, good on the spanners, relevant second language, first aid ticket etc.
It’s not much help to the unfortunate OP here to know he’s been conned with rosy tales of how extra training enhances employability, but if only people did independent research before spending money on ANYTHING there would be fewer tales of woe.
My advice, for what it’s worth: At age 40 plus, with a bare CPL, your chances of an entry level flying job are not good, as you are up against 20 year olds with the same qualifications. Operators like them young and malleable.
Even if you do land a flying job, the pay will barely cover living in a remote area, much less servicing a large debt.
Investigate cadet programs, but not one where you pay! I am not even sure that such exists yet, but with the alleged pilot shortage at airline level, you never know.
Otherwise, get a heavy vehicle license, or learn to operate a combine harvester, or work as a deckhand on a trawler - in other words put aviation on the back burner for now, but pick a field associated with machinery, not the call centre…

[43Inches]

Easiest way to fix it is to make the airlines/operators foot the bill for candidates. There will be next to no waste then and they will work hard to keep their investments instead of treating them like a casual flow through workforce.

[PoppaJo]

There are dozens of freshly minted CPLers that I met in my voyage up North and NE and none of them can get a job except the rare one that slips through the cracks and gets checked to line on a C210 or something. I think for every 1 that gets a first GA job, there is another 10-20 that miss out.

The issue is, everyone from down south has much the same CVs. 150-200 hours. Diamond time is very common around the traps these days- useless to NT employers. Foxbat I think is another common type, again, not overly helpful to those up north.

What is a competitive CV? Time on 172/182/206/210. That’s the rare CV that came across my desk 25 years ago in charter. That person got the job.

[grant.lebronte]

165K?? Smells like one of those half-baked FTA integrated courses to me.

Anyway, it's too late now for you to be worrying about your debt. Take a breath of fresh air and look forward with an open mind.

Personally I did a non-integrated CPL to ensure I came out with a total time close to insurance minimums then self funded and MEA IR and about 8 hours on a 210 off the east coast. I made some good mates along the way who got a start with a couple of operators which paved the way for me to get a meet and greet. There was a bit of a gap between end of training and my first GA gig. During that 10ish months it seemed there was no end in sight but looking back it really was a very small amount of time (others waited longer). I visitied Darwin a few times, then eventually moved there to door knock and go out on the piss with the other pilots.

Take it easy and enjoy your time, keep hitting up those operators with CVs, they'll crack eventually (It also helps when a line checked driver is also nagging the CP to give you a start).

So once you do get a start (and you will) just remember that in GA you can't gain points, you can only loose them. (I.e. Don't go being a brown noser, it's poor form and disrespects the profession and not to mention your peers, and dont whinge at all becuase squeaky wheels don't get any oil in GA ...I mean that both figuratively and literally :}).

RE: Your debt; It wont be long and youll have the option to shoot off to the U.S. and earn more than enough to sort it out... but mark my words, if you stay in Australia it won't ******* happen.


Very encouraging message! I have looked at the USA but the issue it seems is getting a work permit (with low hours). I think that would come once you meet the minimum hours for an E3 visa, or similar.

[Salusa]

Susi Air

Or maybe not..

[Clare Prop]

As of the 1st of June, the Australian government is going to apply a 7% indexation to loans. The highest it's been in over 30 years. That means if any student pilot (or student in general) is servicing a $130,000 student loan from flight training. Their "interest" (indexation) will be just over $9,000! The total loan to pay will be closer to $140,000! That's around $760 per month just in interest.

G

These loans have always been indexed to inflation, I know this was fully disclosed when I applied for HECS, I hope this was fully disclosed to you?

Also that the money taken out of your pay is held on to by the tax office until the end of the tax year before being applied to your loan balance, so is not paying down the loan with each payment you have deducted? You can only pay the loan down more often than once a year with voluntary payments.

You'd be better off taking out a bank loan to pay off your HELP loan, if you can find a bank that will take the risk (unlikely as a few years back a lot of people were taking out these loans then merrily declaring themselves bankrupt). The only good news is that the debt dies with you so your estate doesn't get burdened with it...the taxpayer does.

Doesn't look so attractive now hey. Self funded is the best and cheapest way to go.

[MagnumPI]

I think you need a mentor.

There are plenty of experienced aviation professionals in Australia who have walked the well-worn path of trying to get their first job. Many of them are now employers or hiring managers. Trent Robinson in Darwin, for instance. Talks about mentoring new CPLs on his podcast Flight Training Australia.

Apart from a never give up attitude, I think you need multiple people encouraging you and barracking for your success, plus the ability to tap into their network might just get you that unadvertised opportunity, or to get your resume to the top of the pile, or even an interview with the chief pilot.

So maybe reframe your success criteria temporarily from 'get an aviation job' to 'get several quality aviation mentors to help me succeed'. Put your efforts into that, and surely the career will follow...

[RENURPP]

.

Seems like a good way to remove money from people.
exactly!!
A commercial license used to cover all those “extras”. I would personally stay clear of any school that offers those as an extra, and find one that includes it in their CPL training.

[Mach E Avelli]

I think you need a mentor.

There are plenty of experienced aviation professionals in Australia who have walked the well-worn path of trying to get their first job. Many of them are now employers or hiring managers. Trent Robinson in Darwin, for instance. Talks about mentoring new CPLs on his podcast Flight Training Australia.

Apart from a never give up attitude, I think you need multiple people encouraging you and barracking for your success, plus the ability to tap into their network might just get you that unadvertised opportunity, or to get your resume to the top of the pile, or even an interview with the chief pilot.

So maybe reframe your success criteria temporarily from 'get an aviation job' to 'get several quality aviation mentors to help me succeed'. Put your efforts into that, and surely the career will follow...
But only if said mentor does not charge for his/her services!
Be afraid - very afraid - of those who talk it up, get your hopes up, then charge you, or refer you to somewhere that will cost. As others here have said, a good CPL training school should have already given you all the flying skills that you need for an entry level job. However, they are not in the business of grooming students for job interviews. So, you need to consider the type of personality GA employers seek. There's plenty of good advice here on other threads about how to prepare a cv, networking while pulling beers at the local pub etc.
As for interview technique, there's also free advice on sites like 'Seek'. It's unlikely that an entry level GA outfit will subject you to psych testing. Time to bone up on that when you have enough experience to have a crack at an airline gig. OTOH, if you did find a cadet program that was not going to cost you, some research and perhaps small expenditure on passing aptitude tests would be appropriate - AFTER you have an interview date!

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Something like this I guess. Probably stuff you should already have covered with a good CPL school.
https://www.flycommand.com.au/ga-readyOur Course Includes- 5hrs flight training

- 2 x 1-hour pre flight briefings

- Briefing on Cessna 200-series aircraft systems

- Letter of recommendation signed by our Chief Pilot (provided you meet the standard)

- CV/Resume character reference

Flight training includes:

​

- General handling and emergencies

- Emergency gear extension
- Circuits (normal, flapless, glide, EFATO)

- Navigation and descent planning (Class G, D, C)
- Effective approach briefs

- Engine management (particularly important in hot climates)

- Leaning (LOP/ROP operations)
- General plane/passenger and cargo loading management

We maintain strong relationships with various GA operators. We've had dozens of pilots go on to operators and successfully found work thanks to our training and recommendation. Those operators include:


- Wrightsair
- Chinta Air

- Arkaroola
- Lincoln Air Charter

Curious that nothing says that the 5 hours flight training is actually in a C210 - but maybe I'm reading too much into this and someone could comment.

[43Inches]

Something like this I guess. Probably stuff you should already have covered with a good CPL school.

Hmm, if you can go back in time and learn at a good cpl school at least 30 years ago...

5 Hours flight time to learn how to fly a relatively small single engine aircraft... Wonder how long a Navajo endorsement is now?

They certainly should add a training component about operating in and around turbulent conditions, that might actually be useful.

[megan]

a good CPL training school should have already given you all the flying skills that you need for an entry level jobTrouble is how is a youngster able to determine what is a good CPL training school? An individual who joined a real outback operator (as in you couldn't get much more remote) rose to the level of chief pilot, left following marriage and started their own 210 introduction to outback flying course, I can only assume because of the lack of expertise evident in those coming into the outback company, which I might add was a company more than willing to give a kid with the signature still wet upon the license a go. Outstanding company, well maintained aircraft, and no I never had commercial dealings with them, going merely by what I observed.

[MagnumPI]

But only if said mentor does not charge for his/her services!

Absolutely, and I should have made this clear. A true mentor does it because they get satisfaction from giving back and seeing those that are some rungs lower on the ladder winning in life and their career.

I know there are plenty of people like this in aviation. Most won't advertise though, you'll have to ask them.

[43Inches]

A lot can be said for the old days of pilots meeting over drinks at the aeroclub, flyaway or BBQ, getting drunk and spilling stories of misadventure. The new pilot could get to know some of the older crew and get advice on many things from handling a 210 to tips on who to send the resume to avoid the queue. Sadly alcohol induced socializing is now considered a bad thing, and many old pilots need some social lubricant to get the lips moving. I won't take money for advice, but a few drams of the Scottish stuff will loosen the story bag and may even be necessary to motivate the memory cells.

That's what really needs to be pushed to CASA, regular piss-ups improve safety!

[lucille]

Are there fewer and fewer outback commercial operators of SE aircraft than say 40 years ago?

Im guessing this is the case because mining companies now insist on twin turbine ops. In the old days, we were cheerfully doing crew changes in 210, 207 and 206.

Out of curiosity, are helicopter jobs easier to get a start on?

[Mach E Avelli]

Hmm, if you can go back in time and learn at a good cpl school at least 30 years ago...

5 Hours flight time to learn how to fly a relatively small single engine aircraft... Wonder how long a Navajo endorsement is now?

They certainly should add a training component about operating in and around turbulent conditions, that might actually be useful.
Even back in the bad old days when many single engine types required a separate endorsement, I can’t remember having to do more than an hour’s dual when moving up a notch - e.g from Piper Cherokee 180 to Comanche 260, or C182 to C210. Twins took a bit longer, but I can’t recall any transition exceeding five hours, including night landings.
Five hours for a CPL to fly a 210 suggests either a woefully prepared candidate or a rip-off training organisation. Is CPL training now that inadequate?

[soseg]

Some sound advice here already posted but I'll chip in with what I've seen happen as someone who came from a sausage factory and has seen/done the instructing/charter/rpt side from over east all the way through the centre of Oz.

Times have been tougher. Right now the job market is appearing to increase (for those who have hours). That will create suction, if it hasn't already at the bottom end of GA into entry jobs.

Who you know helps. Make friends. Don't be cocky. Listen to people and quietly form your own judgements - and keep them to yourself. The industry is very small. I've seen cocky 200hour pilots ruin their reptuations that quite literally followed them around this continent.

My single biggest piece of advice is persistence. Out of all the people I've met in this industry in almost two decades that never made it to their first job, or who later gave up and didn't make it further - it was a lack of persistence. Most never left the big smoke and refused to leave the comfort of sending their CV via email. Get out there face to face. Nobody is going to hire a sub few-hundred-hour pilot based on an anonymous CV at the moment.

Unless you're the odd spud who genuinely struggled with your training (lots of repeats and your hours blew out drastically) then you will get there. I've seen pilots come and go who were quite mediocre and slow learners, but they kept at it and got there. The right attitude helps a lot. Attitude will get you further than raw skills, in GA anyway. You'll see people jump you, and you might even jump people. Deal with it. The indusry isn't fair.

I have not seen a single pilot get to where they wanted (or close to where they wanted) who never gave up. The industry will fluctuate in your favour and against. Right now, it's swinging in your favour, however first jobs have never been easy to get for 95% of people, no matter how big a "pilot shortage". As I said, the only people who I never saw get their first jobs (and there's literally dozens) never really tried. I know that sounds generic.

Try surround yourself with people who have gotten a foot into starting level jobs in GA. Distance yourself from anyone else who might be struggling to get a job especially if it is their fault - ie they're not trying hard enough and just whinging from home about how crap it is rather than giving it 110%.

Take what you read on pprune with a grain of salt. The advice in this thread so far seems genuine and legit and it wont be the cushy easy answers you want. The first P in pprune stands for pessimistic, so when you come across the really negative **** on here just ignore it. In fact, once you land that first job and kick off your career in GA I recommend you stay off this forum for a very long time. I almost quit this industry during the GFC when I was looking for my first job because I frequented this forum regularly and it was an incredible downer listening to people talk about what a **** career you're digging yourself into.

Find the right people. Don't be afraid to ask for help.

[By George]

GL I feel your pain. From my experience this is the toughest part of any flying career, that coveted first job. Most of us have been through this and only the most dedicated survive. I am at the end of my career, and it has been a fabulous ride with no regrets. How to help you along the way?

1. Regrettably a basic CPL is not enough you need either an Instructor Rating or IF/MEA.
2. You need to be known about the traps, try and get any job on an airfield to pay your way.
3. Grab a few mates for a flying trip on a cost sharing exercise. Be careful with this one and follow the legal definition of cost sharing.
4. Network socially through any flying organisation.
5. Sounds like an overkill but look neat and tidy, the industry is still very conservative at the hiring level. No '**** Happens' tee-shirts!
6. Neat logbook
7. PM me if you like, I have a few friends flying professionally based in Adelaide, one with his own light aircraft who knows the industry well.
8. Never give up. Book staples held my shoes together for four years. Makes me laugh thinking back, I walked with a clicking sound, so keep a sense of humour.
9. You will make it if you want it badly enough. Try and get some time on an aircraft the operators are using up north.
10. Finally, be safe don't take risks by flying anything anywhere. Sadly, in aviation circles your reputation is formed by accidents or incidents not achievements.

Good luck to you.

[43Inches]

Five hours for a CPL to fly a 210 suggests either a woefully prepared candidate or a rip-off training organisation. Is CPL training now that inadequate?

My first big single was the PA32R Lance. 1.2 hour of dual for the instructor to guide me through how something can glide worse than a brick, and how to get the brick into a field under you. Then a few circuits to ram home the need to keep the speed and power up on approach and not develop nasty sink rate, of which 2 circuits were with 6 on board to demonstrate it's woeful field performance at max weight. The rest was a lengthy chat over a coffee and later some beers on the finer points of weight and balance, planning and systems and stuff. The instructor never touched the controls and it was more a test drive with some objectives than a checkout. Then off I went with 5 mates and sped flat out at 500ft hugging the coast at 160 kts for a scenic/hoon flight (oops that should read the next day, not after having some beers).

I think the main thing I took from the checkride, don't get slow, especially when low. Don't try to fit it into small airfields, especially with load, allow plenty of margin and also, do everything to avoid having an engine failure, as space shuttle glide performance doesn't give you many options.

[Uplinker]

Lay out a good looking, clear CV, written on one side of A4 paper.

Include any technical qualifications and exam results, and your basic employment facts and dates. Include voluntary work and anything that shows that you go out and try to make things happen or help people rather than playing computer games in your bedroom, (not saying that you do).
Think about the person reading it and make it easy and quick for them to assimilate and put your CV on the 'Keep' pile rather than into the waste bin.
Advice varies on this, but I included a photo, (of me smiling naturally, wearing a collar and tie and looking pleasant).

Print it on nice watermarked paper.

Post it to every operator you can think of - find out the name of the person responsible for recruitment and address it to them by name. Include a covering letter.

Repeat the above every 2 months or so - the Employer's CV pile will get dumped in the bin every so often, so you need to keep your CV appearing on their desk. But not too often, and don't try to speak to the Chief Pilot in person, they don't appreciate it.

Emails are easily missed amongst an in-box full of several hundred others, but an actual paper envelope and CV on "posh" watermarked paper arriving at the Chief Pilot's desk will, at least be read.

If you hear anything about a company possibly looking for a few pilots. Print out your CV again, put it in an envelope, drive to the head office there and then, and ask reception if they would kindly pass your CV on to the Chief Pilot.

Improve your licence if possible and affordable; e.g. relevant type rating, Instrument rating etc. Back in the day, I spent my last £3,000 on a Shorts 360 type rating, which several UK operators flew at the time.

Good luck :ok: (I did all the above and was eventually successful).

[Duck Pilot]

$165k debt, can’t get a job and have to throw additional $$$$ at a bull**** GA ready course to polish up after getting the CPL is absolutely ridiculous.

It’s not surprising that there’s a chronic shortage of pilots.

I recon my CPL including multi engine, night and IFR ratings and ATPL theory costed me about $50k back in the early 90s.

I had the luxury of self sponsoring my training as I was a JAFA and done the training part time and it took about 3 years. Held a PPL for a few years before I got my CPL and had over 300 hours when I got it and had C-210, V-35 and a bit of twin time and had passed all my ATPL theory subjects when I done my CPL flight test.

Lots of old school stuff and a lot of guts, risks, financial pain, hard work and beers to get through the first 1500 hours.

[aussieflyboy]

1. Move to Kununurra.
2. Get a share house with a bunch of Pilots.
3. Get a job at the pub/airport
4. If your not a toolly spud you’ll have a job within 6 months.

While your waiting for a flying job to open up enjoy the spectacular gorges, hikes and adventures to be had.

[Duck Pilot]

1. Move to Kununurra.
2. Get a share house with a bunch of Pilots.
3. Get a job at the pub/airport
4. If your not a toolly spud you’ll have a job within 6 months.

While your waiting for a flying job to open up enjoy the spectacular gorges, hikes and adventures to be had.

Agree, I got my first job in Kununurra and also my nickname - Plugga! Thanks to GBJ👍

[grant.lebronte]

These loans have always been indexed to inflation, I know this was fully disclosed when I applied for HECS, I hope this was fully disclosed to you?

Also that the money taken out of your pay is held on to by the tax office until the end of the tax year before being applied to your loan balance, so is not paying down the loan with each payment you have deducted? You can only pay the loan down more often than once a year with voluntary payments.

You'd be better off taking out a bank loan to pay off your HELP loan, if you can find a bank that will take the risk (unlikely as a few years back a lot of people were taking out these loans then merrily declaring themselves bankrupt). The only good news is that the debt dies with you so your estate doesn't get burdened with it...the taxpayer does.

Doesn't look so attractive now hey. Self funded is the best and cheapest way to go.


Yeah. In hindsight it would have been best to probably take the bank loan and/or work a job and save to self fund. This is a horrific position to be in.
Yes, I was aware that indexation has always applied to student loans but the dilemma is indexation for 2023 is forecast to be 7.1% - a 30+ year high from previous years. It's all over the media and how this indexation rate is going to hurt a lot of students, especially those with big loans like myself. A $100k loan just cost $107k in a blink. In year 2, the loan balance becomes $115k (assuming the same 7.1% or so indexation for 2024).

[Clare Prop]

I understand, I have a HECS debt myself. I'm making extra voluntary payments to try and stop it growing too much. The rate has been low for a long time but inflation has always been a risk factor for these loans.
Self funding is always the best way to go.
I get resumes from people in your exact situation all the time. It makes me so angry how people are being lured onto these courses with nonsense about pilot shortages, there is no shortage of pilots at entry level and never has been, even before the HELP loans flooded the market even more.
I feel very strongly that this should be stopped so that there aren't so many people in your horrific situation. Unfortunately there are too many people on this gravy train and it will keep on happening, unless you and your cohort talk to your MPs and tell them what you have been through.

I wish you all the best of luck.

[Uplinker]

1. never put a photo of yourself on a cv. 2. why would you not want to speak to the chief pilot? Must be done very differently over in the UK


2. Yes you want to, but do Chief Pilots really welcome lots of wannabes with minimal experience they don't know phoning them up all day and trying to sell themselves and pitch for a job? I tried it just the once and the guy was most unpleasant about it. So I went elswhere.

[Clare Prop]

2. Yes you want to, but do Chief Pilots really welcome lots of wannabes with minimal experience they don't know phoning them up all day and trying to sell themselves and pitch for a job? I tried it just the once and the guy was most unpleasant about it. So I went elswhere.

No, we don't.
I think the people that give this advice are actually trying to get rid of the competition by ensuring that the other person will get a reputation as a pest.
I don't appreciate being interrupted in meetings or briefings by someone who didn't have the basic manners to make an appointment.
In 30 years I have never employed anyone off a resume. However there have been rare times when I have had someone polite enough to make an appointment and who has impressed me enough that I recommend them to another employer, and that is how some of my staff have come to me, y word of mouth.
Networking without being a pest is something they should teach at flying school as part of the CPL course.

[Mach E Avelli]

No, we don't.
I think the people that give this advice are actually trying to get rid of the competition by ensuring that the other person will get a reputation as a pest.
I don't appreciate being interrupted in meetings or briefings by someone who didn't have the basic manners to make an appointment.
In 30 years I have never employed anyone off a resume. However there have been rare times when I have had someone polite enough to make an appointment and who has impressed me enough that I recommend them to another employer, and that is how some of my staff have come to me, y word of mouth.
Networking without being a pest is something they should teach at flying school as part of the CPL course.
There were two ways I recruited pilots.
One was by advertising when we needed them. Those who correctly and succinctly addressed the selection criteria got an interview, and from there some went on to a more technical evaluation such as a simulator check.
The other was by observing how individuals conducted themselves around the airport - were they good with customers, cheerful with staff, diligent about their own aircraft cleanliness, neatly dressed but not posing?
I had a " black list" for serial pests who phoned more than once, or submitted endless resumes that failed to meet basic advertised requirements, or which displayed poor grammar. I did make allowances for grammar if it was obvious that the applicant was not a native English speaker, but took the hardline that anyone who didn't spell check and edit an application would probably be a bit slack in other areas.

Harsh, but about 95% successful.

[The Love Doctor]

The 2 steps to getting the elusive first flying job :

1 Networking and persistence is everything
2 See step 1

Good luck!

[grant.lebronte]

I understand, I have a HECS debt myself. I'm making extra voluntary payments to try and stop it growing too much. The rate has been low for a long time but inflation has always been a risk factor for these loans.
Self funding is always the best way to go.
I get resumes from people in your exact situation all the time. It makes me so angry how people are being lured onto these courses with nonsense about pilot shortages, there is no shortage of pilots at entry level and never has been, even before the HELP loans flooded the market even more.
I feel very strongly that this should be stopped so that there aren't so many people in your horrific situation. Unfortunately there are too many people on this gravy train and it will keep on happening, unless you and your cohort talk to your MPs and tell them what you have been through.

I wish you all the best of luck.

I appreciate your response! There's been a few trials in the USA where students have sued the prospective schools for allegedly falsifying marketing statistics to lure them in and leave them with huge student loan debts (and no jobs in the field they studied for). One case, a law student with $170,000 of debt was suing the law school (I believe she lost the case). Another 9 or so graduates were suing a New York university for something similar.

A class action lawsuit or Royal Commission, or something similar, needs to look at the aviation sector in Australia - specifically the way student loans are handed out willy-nilly with a very low probably of gaining employment in the field at the end (10% or less).

[grant.lebronte]

No, we don't.
I think the people that give this advice are actually trying to get rid of the competition by ensuring that the other person will get a reputation as a pest.
I don't appreciate being interrupted in meetings or briefings by someone who didn't have the basic manners to make an appointment.
In 30 years I have never employed anyone off a resume. However there have been rare times when I have had someone polite enough to make an appointment and who has impressed me enough that I recommend them to another employer, and that is how some of my staff have come to me, y word of mouth.
Networking without being a pest is something they should teach at flying school as part of the CPL course.

Great inside information! I appreciate that...

[Clare Prop]

This makes interesting reading. Box Hill Institute Student Pilot Class Action (bhiclassaction.com.au) (https://www.bhiclassaction.com.au/)

[Mach E Avelli]

I appreciate your response! There's been a few trials in the USA where students have sued the prospective schools for allegedly falsifying marketing statistics to lure them in and leave them with huge student loan debts (and no jobs in the field they studied for). One case, a law student with $170,000 of debt was suing the law school (I believe she lost the case). Another 9 or so graduates were suing a New York university for something similar.

A class action lawsuit or Royal Commission, or something similar, needs to look at the aviation sector in Australia - specifically the way student loans are handed out willy-nilly with a very low probably of gaining employment in the field at the end (10% or less).
A law student suing a law school in the USA was bound to end badly for the plaintiff.
As for government profligacy with taxpayer money, an analysis of time it takes for students in certain fields to start repaying their HECS should indicate which studies should not be funded in the future.
If the figure is only 1 in 10, or even 1 in 3 pilots making it to gainful employment in aviation, then flying lessons should not be on the approved list. There are more deserving fields such as medicine where the money would be better spent.
Some flight training institutions have had their snouts in the trough long enough.

​​​​

[Squawk7700]

The issue is, what is “gainful employment.”

There are many other HECS funded courses that often don’t lead anywhere too. Eyes wide open when heading down any university / or expensive course pathway. There are zero guarantees with any of these courses or degrees.

[Mach E Avelli]

I suppose 'gainful employment' is where money earned equals or exceeds money spent.
For entry level pilots that probably means eating beans, living in a tent, riding a bike and only drinking at happy hour.

[Clare Prop]

The issue is, what is “gainful employment.”

There are many other HECS funded courses that often don’t lead anywhere too. Eyes wide open when heading down any university / or expensive course pathway. There are zero guarantees with any of these courses or degrees.


First, most degrees have an entry requirement of a certain ATAR. VET loans only require a pulse.
Second, the only HECS courses where you can borrow that much are medicine, dentistry and veterinary science, Very difficult to get into and good chance of gainful employment afterwards.
Thirdly, these loans aren't actually HECS they are VET supposed to specifically address industry needs.

This is where you need to find out who is driving the gravy train because there are some people getting very very rich (remember Neel and his $67 million on the rich list?).at the expense of people like the OP .

Mach, very true, not just the ones in the trough now, think of how many of those snouts just took the money and disappeared, leaving a trail of unfinished students, unpaid debts and unpaid instructors, leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab as creditors tried to cover their losses. There are some safeguards in place now, but the outcomes for people like the OP are the same, although he was lucky enough to actually finish his course; many never did and still had the debts.

[Squawk7700]

This is not a new thing. Plenty of people are out there with huge debts for courses that were never completed.

There are plenty of jobs, who do you think flies all the GA aircraft and airliners out there?

There will always be people that don’t ever make it, it’s how life works unfortunately.

The ATAR does not determine how street-smart you are, that’s a common misconception.

If you decide to become a career pilot at age 40, you need to do your research on job availability and career prospects as changing ANY career at that age is usually an unwise move. Add a partner and kids into the equation and you’re asking for trouble.

Short of a government employee interviewing everyone before they hand out the money, how are you going to stop it?

[tossbag]

Buyer beware, if you are too dim to do the research on job prospects prior to spending 160k on a student loan, that's on you. Basic research will give you the award rates for either an instructor or a GA pilot. And those business owners whinging about snouts in the trough and unethical fee-help loans are usually those that can't get fee-help for their own business. Would they dip their snouts, you bet they would if they could. Oh sorry, they're ethical and would refuse fee-help in their business.

Newsflash, there is a pilot shortage, it's reflected in the unprecedented hiring at the moment. Don't have enough hours to apply, go out and get them. That's what all my mates did and a fair whack of them have fee-help loans. And if Clare thinks you're rude for not making an appointment, when everyone else has told you to drop off a res in person because your emails will be ignored, don't worry about her and drop your res off at the next joint. One thing I can guarantee you, no one that is responsible for hiring will make appointments to see randoms when they're not hiring, they're too busy.

Pilots have always been known as whingers, when you find one that's not, you hire them.

[Squawk7700]

Spot on tossbag!

If I can also add, perhaps when you drop into the potential employer, you might have better luck on a foul weather day.

[Clare Prop]

Not everyone wants to be involved in it, lots of paperwork and having to deal with CASA and another theory provider then wait long times for invoices to be paid, no thanks.
Not all of us are motivated solely by money.

[PoppaJo]

Can you move to Darwin? Is that an option? I mean, working in some other job locally and over time checking in with local flying operators. When I worked in charter recruitment many moons ago, we sorted resumes firstly for those who lived locally, and those who didn’t. We interviewed the locals first, then went to the interstate recruits to finish off any shortfalls.

Some key points for those we considered back in the day was obviously living local, attitude, potential nuisances, retractable endorsement, the three machines we valued time on was 182/206/210, we had one bloke who did his entire hour building on those three types, he was employed soon after. Twin ratings, IFR stuff, not important. I don’t know why so many fresh minted CPLs do all that stuff before they even get a job, do it after your first season.

Many of these course also offer time in aircraft that are fairly useless and disadvantages you against getting a job. Diamond, Bristell, Foxbat, Sling are all commonly used. You go for a job with that on your CV, then you have another person going for the same job with 50-100 hours in a 200 series, I’m putting your CV in the bin. That’s just how it works.

Are you early or late 40s?

[bloodandiron]

Fact is there are hundreds of dudes handing in a resume to Darwin / Kunnurra / Broome, even making the 100km trek off the main road out to Will Creek, each year. Every dude who was successful and found work will tell you to "keep persistent", almost with the idea in their head that it is impossible to not find a job, and that there is actually a match between people moving up north and people getting hired. There is no match. There are plenty that move up, hang round, or do a big drive, and do not find work. If you handed in a resume and got a job a month later you have no idea how hard it can be to find a job. If you headed down the pub and got lucky talking to some pilots, you have no idea how hard it can be to find work.

Some dudes are just in the right place at the right time. Like one I talked to who started their 6 month stint on the ground by asking if some dude outside the office was the chief pilot... he was... and he had two pilots leave the week before.

It was said to me once that a person I knew didn't get a look in with an operator "because he had kids, on the east coast". What?? Doesn't that indicate he likely would be a good candidate, because he is sacrificing quite a bit to try and get a job? Doesn't that speak to his "attitude"?? Hiring is unfair.

20- year old chief pilots want to hire dudes they can be friends with, being able to do the job is not enough.

Want to find a job as a pilot up north? Go to the pub. Go to Monsoons. Chief pilots are 20- year old kids who love to drink and party. Top tip: the way to get a job up north is to make friends with the 20 year old pilots and chief pilots. Every other bit of advice is BS.

The old fellas on here who have endless amounts of advice to give regarding resumes etc seem to have no experience of what it's like post VSL and now HELP. The job market is absolutely saturated and as others have stated, the big dogs running flights schools are the winners. They do not care about training standards. They don't have any f*cking idea of what flying in the top end is like. Instructors do all their training from 0 to FIR at one school, then start instructing at the same school. There are no strong beliefs in these organisations. No strong convictions. When something is taught, no one has any real idea or appreciation for why it is taught like that. Tisdall, Tim from the Sunny Coast, the SFC mob, Airwork, just a few that come to mind that, post-COVID, have expanded like a CB in the build up, with fancy new buildings and huge fleets. I now sympathise with people who live near Archerfield, Bankstown etc and complain about planes doing circuits all day. WTF are you training for? Why are you pushing through 12 dudes every month on a new intake??? Entry level GA does not need that many people.

I have flown during the build up and the very start of the wet season in the top end. Despite how ever much you want to parrot PPPPPP, it will not stop a 20- year old from not prior planning... having my IR (with a current IPC) and a machine that was IFR capable gave me a lot more options and confidence. Never did go IFR but was more willing to send it because I had flown in proper IMC a lot during my IR training. My IPC has expired now but I can start up my home sim and fly an approach pretty well and there's an IFR cheat sheet hanging around to refresh on al the regs. Going up with a bare CPL is a sound decision but I don't get what's wrong with going up with your MEA IR as well. If you drink with the right pilots you could even be on a twin straight away. Bonus points if you're drinking with blokes on the east coast. Big brained dudes don't even need to go up north to get a job.

[43Inches]

"Right place, right time"

Can be luck, or you can create your own luck by hanging around the right places regularly. That't what savvy salesmen will do, and after all you are selling yourself as employable. The trick is to be in the right place when the time comes. Networking and some basic research will tell you when that is. You don't see an add for a good product just once, you see it regularly and usually timed to be when you might be thinking of that need or want, so its foremost in your thoughts when its time to buy. So you need to know what your prospective employer needs and when and make it apparent you fit the bill.

[grant.lebronte]

Buyer beware, if you are too dim to do the research on job prospects prior to spending 160k on a student loan, that's on you. Basic research will give you the award rates for either an instructor or a GA pilot. And those business owners whinging about snouts in the trough and unethical fee-help loans are usually those that can't get fee-help for their own business. Would they dip their snouts, you bet they would if they could. Oh sorry, they're ethical and would refuse fee-help in their business.

Newsflash, there is a pilot shortage, it's reflected in the unprecedented hiring at the moment. Don't have enough hours to apply, go out and get them. That's what all my mates did and a fair whack of them have fee-help loans. And if Clare thinks you're rude for not making an appointment, when everyone else has told you to drop off a res in person because your emails will be ignored, don't worry about her and drop your res off at the next joint. One thing I can guarantee you, no one that is responsible for hiring will make appointments to see randoms when they're not hiring, they're too busy.

Pilots have always been known as whingers, when you find one that's not, you hire them.

There's some valuable points in this post. Thanks for sharing! I disagree about failing to do research prior to landing myself in a lot of debt. I did research award wages but there is no research on the supply/demand curves of fresh CPL graduates vs available entry-level GA jobs. This is where it gets vague and it's only once your "on the street" door knocking and meeting people, while looking at the other 15 of your class mates (that also cannot find a job), that you realise something is seriously wrong with the system. I bought into a school that sold the "take your career to the skies" dream. I understand, it's a business and they'll do and say anything to sign you up to a FIR course, etc. But this is unethical business practices and many schools are doing this.

As for the pilot shortage, does this not depend on the specific market? From my understanding (& research), the shortages are higher up in the "food chain" as opposed to down low at my level (entry level GA).

Thanks again!

[grant.lebronte]

This makes interesting reading. Box Hill Institute Student Pilot Class Action (bhiclassaction.com.au) (https://www.bhiclassaction.com.au/)

I read that after you shared, appreciate that.

[jonkster]

A problem I see with people doing the FEE help courses is they may be quite unsuited to becoming a pilot.

This is not applicable to all people going this path but what I have seen first hand is applicable to a number of such students and contrasts with students who pay as you go. There is some generalisation in my comments below but is drawn from personal conatct with student's going both routes.

FEE help students may apply to such courses because being an airline pilot (that is all they know about) seems a cool job, well paid and all they have to do is enrol and turn up (like school) and they will become an airline pilot, at no cost (well yeah they can pay that back a bit at a time a few years later as a deduction out of their airline pilot's salary). Like I said - this is not *all* of them but is drawn for my experience of a number I have seen.

By the time they realise it is not as they thought, that there is no promise of an airline job (or any job), that there is great competition for jobs and that it is hard work and requires commitment and aptitude (and some amount of passion), not just attendance, they already have a big debt. Higher than the cost they would have paid if they went pay as you go.

I have come across people doing this path who regularly turn up late for lessons, do the bare minimum preparation before flights who do the bare minimum to pass exams, who aren't curious about "the why of things aviation" and who see training as a chore to endure rather than to eagerly look forward to.

That is not necessarily their fault - we have a system that encourages people irrespective of aptitude to train in an industry that they may have no aptitude for, knowledge about or passion for. And we saddle them with a large debt they will have to pay back over years. And we do this for an industry where there is often a lack of jobs. As taxpayers - why do we do this?

A consequence of this is we have sausage factory businesses who see the FEE help as a their business model, who are motivated only by recurring income rather than any passion or commitment to the aviation industry, their students or the product they turn out, who do the minimal training, rather than schools (yes they do exist) who have a drive to train people well and who have a passion and commitment to aviation, not just income.

Contrast the FEE help model with those students who have a passion for flying, who work at other jobs simply to feed their training costs as they go, who turn up early for lessons, who prepare for flights and are trying to wring the most learning they can out of each one because they have to hand over their money each time they fly and want maximum value.

These students will also sometimes be unsuited to the industry and lack the aptitude but as they are paying up front, they will have a stronger motivation to bite the bullet early of their own choice rather than persevere into a mountain of future debt.

Irrespective of if students go the FEE help or pay as you go route, unfortunately aviation is an industry that usually involves struggle to gain a foothold, that does not offer the glamour or financial rewards (at least for most) and is not suited to everybody. You don't want to get into it for the money. You get into it because you want it. You need to have drive and passion and sadly even that will not guarantee you a career.

[Impress to inflate]

Get a Job in Human Remains or S&Q, you'll soon earn the $165K

[43Inches]

Oh no, don't do HR in aviation. All you will do is investigate inane 'he said, she said' arguments between crew that dated and then broke up, track down social media offenders who have offended the CEO, then get buried in forests worth of Workcover claims and then finally follow up on the boards hate list to see who on it has accrued enough points to be fired.

[freshy1234]

1. Move to Kununurra.
2. Get a share house with a bunch of Pilots.
3. Get a job at the pub/airport
4. If your not a toolly spud you’ll have a job within 6 months.

While your waiting for a flying job to open up enjoy the spectacular gorges, hikes and adventures to be had.

This is the way. Sell ya stuff, pack up ya car and drive to Broome/Kununurra/Darwin. It's the way I did it in the early 2010's and it's the way it's been done for decades.
Move into a sharehouse, work in the pub, get to know the pilots. Get to know the right people and you'll have a job. Be ready to move wherever they send you.

Tried and true.

[Mach E Avelli]

This is the way. Sell ya stuff, pack up ya car and drive to Broome/Kununurra/Darwin. It's the way I did it in the early 2010's and it's the way it's been done for decades.
Move into a sharehouse, work in the pub, get to know the pilots. Get to know the right people and you'll have a job. Be ready to move wherever they send you.

Tried and true.
However, as the OP is in his 40’s he may not be an easy fit in a share house full of 20 year old party animals.
On the plus side, an owner-operator just might be comfortable with a mature addition to the ranks of said party animals. I take it that young pilots do still party these days…?

[prickly]

If I was in the position of hiring a newbie pilot it certainly wouldn't be one irresponsible enough to run up a $165,000 debt with no or little chance of repaying it in the remainder of their working lives. Talk of legal action on the basis of being deliberately misinformed only confirms that decision

[redsnail]

I feel for the OP as he's tried to do some diligence but got caught by the perception versus reality. The old CAA aka Department used to send out a warning with their VFG etc that there are far more pilots than jobs. I thought was rather honest of them.

[SOPS]

I feel for the OP as he's tried to do some diligence but got caught by the perception versus reality. The old CAA aka Department used to send out a warning with their VFG etc that there are far more pilots than jobs. I thought was rather honest of them.


Very correct Red. However that was in the old days when the CAA or the Department worked with the industry, not actively against it at every turn.

[engine out]

Although I feel for the OP and the others who have been sucked in by schools selling the dream. However schools have always been selling the dream, only most people paid up front yet many invested this money and never ended up with a job. The real problem though is that previously there were less mass schools so the trickle of new CPLs made their way around the country to hunt that elusive job, now it’s a torrent. This coincides with there being less jobs as technology removes the need for some traditional piloting pathways. I started my journey in the mid 90s and thy were talking pilot shortage then, thirty years later it has not really materialised.

[Ollie Onion]

How can you possibly run up a bill of $165k just to end up with a CPL? Genuine question.

[aussieflyboy]

If I was in the position of hiring a newbie pilot it certainly wouldn't be one irresponsible enough to run up a $165,000 debt with no or little chance of repaying it in the remainder of their working lives. Talk of legal action on the basis of being deliberately misinformed only confirms that decision

Plenty of Pilot jobs around at the moment.

Year 1 SE Piston: $50K income - $500 repaid
Year 2 SE Turbine: $60K income - $1,500 repaid
Year 3 ME Piston: $70K income - $2,800 repaid
Year 4 ME Turbine: $85K income - $4,650 repaid
Years 5 - 7 Jet FO: $130,000 income - $35,100 repaid
Years 7 - 13 Jet CMD: $210,000 income - $126,000 repaid

13 years to pay off $165,000 HECS debt. So an 18 year old finishing the uni course at 21 could be on $200+K a year as a 35 year old and HECS debt free.

[Squawk7700]

The bank of Mum and Dad pay for a lot of these young airline pilots to get where they are.

If not directly, usually with free rent and some help along the way.

It’s hard for those who hooked up and got married early.

[grant.lebronte]

How can you possibly run up a bill of $165k just to end up with a CPL? Genuine question.

I did explain this. It was a RPL/CPL/ME IR/G3 FIR package, along with a GA ready course + MCC.

So no, it's not $165,000 for just a CPL.

Grant.

[VerandaBoots]

Plenty of Pilot jobs around at the moment.

Year 1 SE Piston: $50K income - $500 repaid
Year 2 SE Turbine: $60K income - $1,500 repaid
Year 3 ME Piston: $70K income - $2,800 repaid
Year 4 ME Turbine: $85K income - $4,650 repaid
Years 5 - 7 Jet FO: $130,000 income - $35,100 repaid
Years 7 - 13 Jet CMD: $210,000 income - $126,000 repaid

13 years to pay off $165,000 HECS debt. So an 18 year old finishing the uni course at 21 could be on $200+K a year as a 35 year old and HECS debt free.

dream run!

[Clare Prop]

You only needed a PPL and CPL.
Out of interest how much was it to get to CPL?

[prickly]

Plenty of Pilot jobs around at the moment.

Year 1 SE Piston: $50K income - $500 repaid
Year 2 SE Turbine: $60K income - $1,500 repaid
Year 3 ME Piston: $70K income - $2,800 repaid
Year 4 ME Turbine: $85K income - $4,650 repaid
Years 5 - 7 Jet FO: $130,000 income - $35,100 repaid
Years 7 - 13 Jet CMD: $210,000 income - $126,000 repaid

13 years to pay off $165,000 HECS debt. So an 18 year old finishing the uni course at 21 could be on $200+K a year as a 35 year old and HECS debt free.

The gap between reality and fantasy is wider than I thought, and it's everywhere. Not to mention the debt will be $265,000 after 13 years

[Squawk7700]

The gap between reality and fantasy is wider than I thought, and it's everywhere. Not to mention the debt will be $265,000 after 13 years

​​​​ Using the Vet Student Loan (VSL) system, you're automatically charged a 20% loan fee. $10,000 becomes $12,000. VSL is interest-free. However, the repayment calculations are attached it to the currency index, so in reality, what you pay back can vary. ​​​
………..

[Bosi72]

I did explain this. It was a RPL/CPL/ME IR/G3 FIR package, along with a GA ready course + MCC.

I would've expected that mob who advertise the "GA ready course" would be able to get you at least some sort of casual gig to recuperate the costs and give you the taste of the industry.

[Clare Prop]

https://www.ato.gov.au/Rates/Study-and-training-loan-indexation-rates/

It is interest free but is indexed according to CPI, currently 7.1% and all the payments taken out of wages are only taken off the loan by the ATO once a year. It can grow rapidly and far more expensive than paying up front or using equity in your house.
The repayments will vary with your income and be adjusted at the end of the financial year then and only then are a years worth of repayments put towards paying off the loan, so it has been growing at 7.1% for a whole year. If you look at the link above you will see how it was a good deal until 2022 when it jumped from 0.6% to 3.9%, then jumped to 7.1% for 2023. Who knows what is in store in 2024, but I can't see it going back down to 2021 levels for some time, if ever.
This is all disclosed when you apply for any kind of HELP loan, but the idea of "free flying" is very appealing if that is what people want to sell or believe.
The only way to pay down the loan more quickly is with direct, voluntary payments.

[outnabout]

Machiavelli:

in short, yes, CPL training is inadequate.

No (or little) Cessna time - the most commonly used aircraft in GA.
nav exercises over the same routes, one of which is the CPL test.
no dirt strips.
no drum refuelling.
no MTOW flights.
no flights on less than full fuel, so no fuel calcs in flight.
no maintenance training.
Limited landings in crosswinds.
no flights in 8k viz, much less special VFR.

living at home for longer also means a freshly minted CPL May have limited life skills - worst one that I know of wanted more uniforms because he didn’t know how to use a washing machine. His housemates (remote base) had to teach him how to wash his clothes, and how to cook something other than toast / cuppa.

At the same time, insurance and CaSA (and common sense) require that a pilot be able to demonstrate that they can do a manouvre consistently….flapless, short field, steep turns, stalls, EFATO, emergency procedures, use of checklists. That is a lot to accomplish in one hour..

I would estimate that the average cost of getting a freshly minted CPL checked to line to fly a scenic in a Cessna 100 series would be in the vicinity of $10k.

WARNING - THREAD DRIFT

There is a lot of slinging off at pilots who “follow the magenta line” but let’s have a look at what’s happening in flight.

Prior to flight, Pilots were always required to access weather (now provided in the ever so user friendly GAF and Grid Point winds), NoTAMS, fuel calcs, and W&B.

Part 119 (from memory) introduced in December 2021, requires pilots to save this information, and a flight log showing FOB and actual time vs ETA - three months after the flight. If the W&B is not produced on a method which is an integral part of the aircraft, then the W&B must be stored for six months after the flight.

tell me - what is the possible safety benefit gained by saving this information.for 3-6 months after a flight? What is the purpose, other than to provide the prosecutor with all the information he / she needs in the event of accident or incident?

So have a look now at what is happening in a single engine, single pilot scenic flight…..a low hour pilot in an ageing 206 or 210 over Jim Jim Falls or Wilpena Pound or the Horizontal Falls does not have his / her eyes out of the cockpit, looking for the 4-6 other aircraft who are also in the vicinity….No Instead, they will have their head down, looking at their EFB, making sure that they have recorded the Actual Time and estimated FOB on a flight log which - after the safe conclusion of the flight - has no proven safety benefit.

Add in tighter operating margins which means that a day flightseeing trip or a charter MUST be done in X.Y hours, or risk running at a loss…so yes, the newly minted CPL will be glued to the (boss approved) magenta line.

What does the future hold?
the forced introduction of a safety management system - which comes with the cheery advice that a small GA organisation should be recording 50-100 safety occurrences per year. If not, they may be investigated for “not having a culture where staff promote safety”.
Imagine what damage to a business that an entitled CPL who fails to progress on the fleet can do in that environment…..

What many in GA is also waiting for is the announcement of maintenance, and whether there will be any maintenance approved for a pilot to complete.
if the predicted move to “manufacturers only maintenance” occurs, then this will mean that ALL maintenance must be performed by a LAME…
get a flat tyre on a remote strip? Fly in a LAME…
Doing a freight run that might get back after dark but got a blown light? Get the LAME to change the bulb.
now, LAMEs are many things, but one thing they are not is cheap.
Just have a think about the damage to the businesses bottom line will be if only a LAME can do these things…that sound you hear will be the hangar doors sliding closed on any remote operator who does not have a LAME on the airfield.

To course correct back to track (thread)…fewer operators means fewer jobs. However, fewer jobs will not mean less training. Taxpayer supported training will continue to be a valid business model.

Edited to add: I don’t know of too many 20 year old Chief Pilots. Senior Base Pilot, maybe, but not Chief.

[grant.lebronte]

You only needed a PPL and CPL.
Out of interest how much was it to get to CPL?

Around $82,000 not including the loan fee of 20%.

Yes, I understand that only a CPL is required but I decided to do the G3 FIR when my first visit to the Top End was not fruitful. My secondary struggle has been to try and land a G3 position but the CPs I've spoken to about flight instructor positions (that have been advertised), are not interested in taking on Grade 3s (a conversation for another day). Nonetheless, the flight training was a lot of fun but it is just one long string of disappointments. Side note: How is one to become a Grade 2/1 (which is what the advertised flight instructor positions ask for) when one cannot get a Grade 3 position to earn the stripes for such advertised positions. Catch 22.

Appreciate your input.

[grant.lebronte]

I would've expected that mob who advertise the "GA ready course" would be able to get you at least some sort of casual gig to recuperate the costs and give you the taste of the industry.

To be fair, I did receive a little over 5 hours for the GA ready course. Yes, it cost a fortune (I had to take a personal loan). Unfortunately, there is a class FULL of the GA ready students and from what I'm told, all of these GA ready courses are completely full (mine certainly was and, I had to go on a waitlist to do my GA course). So another problem is a new flood of GA ready course graduates in the market, all of which are $5,000 or so out of pocket. I never heard of the GA ready course until I was based in the Top End and met some younger pilots that said it was the "bare minimum" to get a job.

I read in an unrelated thread where someone joked about not having "moon landings" in their logbook to score a job. I feel the sentiment of that poster's sarcasm. I honestly feel like I need a spaceship endorsement with 2 moon landings to even have a shot. Unfortunately, there are hundreds, if not thousands, in my exact position.

[Kundry]

Unfortunately, there is a class FULL of the GA ready students and from what I'm told, all of these GA ready courses are completely full (mine certainly was and, I had to go on a waitlist to do my GA course).


there you have it. there are tons of fresh CPLs who graduate from east coast and DO pack up the car and head up north, hand in a couple of resumes, wait a month in a share house pulling beers at the beachfront, cave in and do the GA ready course (even though they don't really believe in it and have maybe even heard of the owner possibly being a nutcase). After spending many months in Darwin myself I even ended up asking said owner for a job instructing on my G3 ticket. left completely shaken up as the "chat about my skills and attitudes" felt more like a chance for him to re use interrogation tactics he learnt on a course once during his stint as a GSO.

yet people still want to repeat that "there are jobs up north and with the right attitude and if you stick around long you will get them". yes, that is what someone who has had a clear or good run through the industry will say. one who moved up as a fresh 20 year old and got posted out remote after a month of waiting, and had the time of their life on Groote/Elcho etc. but there's a bunch others that just leave the territory/WA demoralised, dejected, depressed etc. then you get boomers on this forum saying "if you did your CPL and other tickets on a VET loan you deserve not to have a job" and some even make a grand statement about your character "do you even care about flying? did you sign up to your $100k course just to dress up in epaulettes? I bet you steer like sh*t and fly like a spud". super toxic and I bet this type of judgement comes from characters who have spent their whole life in aviation. never done a day labouring or in a sh*tty customer service job. have no idea how easy their past 30 years in aviation has been. gets smoke blown up their a** every day by sh*tting on every possible thing they can, like other flight schools and operators and how people fly their planes and operate their engines.

some characters in the industry are pathetic which has resorted to me withdrawing from a lot of discussion in aviation. too many people who don't know what they're talking about proudly making big statements. too many people pushing others down rather than pushing them up. not to mention literally every operator up north shafts there employees in one way or another. they get to do that because there are hundreds of girls and guys go up each year believing that all it takes is the drive up to find a job, when in fact it takes a lot of networking and knowing the right people, or the sheer luck of turning up on the doorstep of the operator when all the planets have aligned, they are there, there are in a good mood and no one else has seen them before you with a better resume.

[KRviator]

Plenty of Pilot jobs around at the moment.

Year 1 SE Piston: $50K income - $500 repaid
Year 2 SE Turbine: $60K income - $1,500 repaid
Year 3 ME Piston: $70K income - $2,800 repaid
Year 4 ME Turbine: $85K income - $4,650 repaid
Years 5 - 7 Jet FO: $130,000 income - $35,100 repaid
Years 7 - 13 Jet CMD: $210,000 income - $126,000 repaid

13 years to pay off $165,000 HECS debt. So an 18 year old finishing the uni course at 21 could be on $200+K a year as a 35 year old and HECS debt free.Meanwhile, on the railways:
Year 0-0.5 Trainee Coey $75-90K depending on operator
Year 0.5-2 Coey / Driver-in-training - $90-120K
Year 2-3 Qualified Driver $120-200K+ depending on operator.

Upfront costs? Zip. Maybe $4K if you want to do a safeworking course and a Cat 1 medical to show a potential employer you're fair dinkum.

When I'm earning as much or more than the tech crew flying me to work - without a degree and a hundred-thousand-dollar "investment" in training either - there's something seriously wrong. But flying schools have always pushed the 'shiny-jet-syndrome' and 'pilot shortage' mantras to the detriment of their students. I get that they're fundamentally running a business and a fool and his money are soon parted but at what point does someone hold a hand up and say, "Hang on a minute, is this really the most prudent course of action?", either financially, emotionally or career-wise?

Does anyone know if AOPA or similar have done any number-crunching on how many CPL's qualify each year vs how many are actually employed as a pilot within 12 months of their flight test?

[Clare Prop]

Yes there should be some kind of statistics going back to the department that is splashing all this taxpayers money around.
VET is supposed to fulfil an industry need. Therefore any money being made available for pilot training should be where the real demand is, ie people with a proven track record in the industry needing to get some ratings to improve their prospects and fill the gaps much further up the ladder, including at the senior instructor level; not pushing more and more fish into the stagnant pond at the bottom of the ladder.

I believe this was the original intent of it.

[Checkboard]

Side note: How is one to become a Grade 2/1 (which is what the advertised flight instructor positions ask for) when one cannot get a Grade 3 position to earn the stripes for such advertised positions.
Well, in my day (1988), you didn't do a G3 course unless you had a job offer at the end of it - even a job offer as a casual who had to sign up their own students.

[grant.lebronte]

As mentioned in a previous thread, I've racked up A LOT of debt via VET fee help ($165,000 of debt actually) which includes a Grade 3 FIR. I've shared my dismay of not being able to get an entry level GA job in the Top End (yes, I've spent time up there, and Kun, and Katherine!). I eventually achieved my G3 Instructor Rating back down south after having no luck up north. But the school I did my instructor rating with did not offer myself nor anyone else in my class any G3 position. There have been several instructor jobs come up on a Facebook "job search" page but they only want Grade 2 and above.

What does one do in this situation where I have a Grade 3 but every flying school wants a Grade 2 and above!? This seems like a bit of a Catch 22 situation. I took the advice to get a G3 instructor rating from a Chief Pilot up north that wanted to help me out by saying something like "try the instructor route"...

Thoughts would be appreciated.

Grant

[Bosi72]

Maybe start thinking about running your own business?
There must be at least one of your non-pilot friends who wants to learn to fly.

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-03/guide-single-instructor-part-141-fto-sample-operations-manual.pdf

[Mach E Avelli]

Maybe start thinking about running your own business?
There must be at least one of your non-pilot friends who wants to learn to fly.

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-03/guide-single-instructor-part-141-fto-sample-operations-manual.pdf
There has been some dubious advice here, but that is crazy. CASA would choke on a proposal for a Grade 3 to run a one-person Part 141 organisation.
Who would supervise the Grade 3? It can't be done remotely.
Who would send this 'non pilot friend' solo? Not a Grade 3.
What would the salary or fees be for an instructor with the necessary privileges?
Where would you find that person, when established schools are advertising continuously for G 2 & G 1 instructors?
Liability insurance? The list goes on....
.

[tossbag]

The independent instructor is not for a 142 certificate, but even so the 'independent instructor' doesn't look like an independent instructor to me, it looks like a Part 141 school without a few bells and whistles, more CASA horse****.

[Mach E Avelli]

The independent instructor is not for a 142 certificate, but even so the 'independent instructor' doesn't look like an independent instructor to me, it looks like a Part 141 school without a few bells and whistles, more CASA horse****.
Thanks for the correction. Fixed it now.
The OP wasted money on a Grade 3 with no job attached. Others thinking of this path need to consider very carefully:
*Is there a guaranteed instructing job at the end of it?
*Are they sufficiently motivated towards instructing to keep at it and give their best for at least a couple of years, or are they going to sit over in the right hand seat yawning away and contributing nothing to their students' progress?
If the latter, please don't - the industry neither wants nor needs you.

[Clare Prop]

It's like the chicken and the egg. You can't employ a Grade 3 without having Grade 1 available to supervise them.
The smaller places that used to take grade 3s and mentor them in the early stages when they are a liability and need a lot of supervision and time invested in them (because the instructor courses don't teach them how to do the job, just how to pass the test, so they need a LOT of mentoring) got sick of doing all that just so they could be poached by the sausage factories as soon as they got Grade 2. Another consequence of the "free VET money" being thrown around.

All of this was forseeable, if only the government had consulted with industry instead of only listening to the "Neels" who stood to make an absolute fortune out of it, and who don't need to be accountable and prove that they are actually providing an industry with the workforce it really needs, but keep on churning out people like the OP, deep in debt and with very limited, if any, job prospects.

There should be some kind of KPI where they have to get at least say 75% of starters on the course employed within 3 months of finishing it, or cut off the manna from heaven and let the forces of supply and demand take care of it.

[43Inches]

Funny back when I instructed the smaller places used these low experienced guys as free labor for various duties and the worse ones were even quite open that they didn't want anyone to hang around as they got lazy and wanted more money. Now they struggle for staff, I wonder why...

Lost all the guys that attract and hold onto students when they got better offers, I wonder why...

The new guys are barely trained and break your airplanes, because that's the skill of all that's left, I wonder why...

The GA of old sowed the seeds of being a flow through pilot market, treat em mean, keep em keen and get some more when they move on. Shake the tree and all that, I wonder what went wrong....

Now the governments mistake, thinking that being an RTO, college or university was some sort of honest, respectable business. If they wanted to generate more pilots, make flying cheaper would be easier, subsidies on new trainers, facilities and equipment, remove fuel excise on AVGAS for training operations, eliminate en-route and landing charges for training aircraft. All this makes tiny amounts for the greater tax pie, but adds 25%+ onto the hire rates. There was never any need for TAFE or university courses in aviation, as much as there is need for them in truck driving or trains etc... A big chunk of money given to the institutional RTOs was lost in administration, not even related to flying. And yes even apply this to private pilot courses, because that pilot might choose to become a commercial pilot later.

[tossbag]

There should be some kind of KPI where they have to get at least say 75% of starters on the course employed within 3 months of finishing it

​​​​​​​Like you do?

[Clare Prop]

Like you do?
I'm not taking taxpayers money, nor am I doing integrated courses or diplomas, so it's not a comparison.

But if you must know 100% of my CPLs in the last ten years have had a job lined up for them before they did the test, because they did the networking on the hour building phase. The last one to do a test had the employer waiting in reception to organise the check to line before they even had a chance to get some lunch.

CPL preparation (not training, as the units of competency are the same as PPL) isn't my core business and they have to convince me they will be capable of getting a CPL, being an asset to an employer and upholding my reputation before I will take them on for CPL preparation. They also have to have all exams passed and a minimum of 175 hours total and 100 in command.

I'm preparing people for the GA market, not the airlines.

​​​​​​​So, no comparison to the integrated courses, and about half the cost.

[Mach E Avelli]

That takes me back to when I did my CPL.
Bob Oliver, who owned Murchison Air Charter, was waiting on the fence as I taxied in from the flight test with DCA’s Ron East. Bob asked Ron if I had passed even before I had been debriefed, and offered me a job on the spot. The date was 14 January 1966 . One week later I was on the payroll and checked out.
I believe nearly all those who trained with the same school (Civil Flying Services) obtained employment within weeks of qualifying.
Having started with only a bare CPL, after a couple of years in GA, usually working up to twins or gaining some instructor experience, many went on to airlines. Some made a reasonable career in GA, flying survey work, RFDS, corporate or whatever.
Other than when I went to Blighty and needed a Pommy ATPL to get a job, after that basic CPL, I never paid one cent for any further training or ratings. Employers sometimes required bonds, but generally provided pilots with whatever was needed for their business. The few that didn’t suffered turnover as pilots moved to more enlightened companies.
A case of supply and demand being in equilibrium.

[grant.lebronte]

Thanks for the correction. Fixed it now.
The OP wasted money on a Grade 3 with no job attached. Others thinking of this path need to consider very carefully:
*Is there a guaranteed instructing job at the end of it?
*Are they sufficiently motivated towards instructing to keep at it and give their best for at least a couple of years, or are they going to sit over in the right hand seat yawning away and contributing nothing to their students' progress?
If the latter, please don't - the industry neither wants nor needs you.

There were exactly 10 in our FIR class (1 dropped out), so 9 "graduated" as Grade 3s and none of us landed a job. The class before us had 12 instructor students and only 1 landed a job so far. So across 2 groups, around 20 Grade 3s with no jobs (so far). I could only imagine what the true statistic is when extrapolated across every flying school running a VET fee help instructor program.

I do have a genuine desire to teach (something). In my early 20s, I was going to study to become a primary school teacher. Obviously, I was pursuing a professional flying career as of late and it wasn't until the Chief Pilot up north suggested the instructing pathway, that I decided to entertain the idea - and then follow through with that idea - only to land myself in further debt (and no job!)

Thanks for your response.

G

[43Inches]

10 on a FIR class? That's very excessive, back when I did it over 20 years ago it was not a regular thing and you waited for another student to pair with to keep the cost down on mutual work. Everyone that did a FIR got a job within 3-6 months, although you were casual and had to find your own students. There was some that did not employ you for at least 3 months so as not to be liable for training costs.

[Clare Prop]

There were exactly 10 in our FIR class (1 dropped out), so 9 "graduated" as Grade 3s and none of us landed a job. The class before us had 12 instructor students and only 1 landed a job so far. So across 2 groups, around 20 Grade 3s with no jobs (so far). I could only imagine what the true statistic is when extrapolated across every flying school running a VET fee help instructor program.

I do have a genuine desire to teach (something). In my early 20s, I was going to study to become a primary school teacher. Obviously, I was pursuing a professional flying career as of late and it wasn't until the Chief Pilot up north suggested the instructing pathway, that I decided to entertain the idea - and then follow through with that idea - only to land myself in further debt (and no job!)

Thanks for your response.

G
There are great opportunities for people who want to make instructing a career. It is not, as some like to sneer, just a crap job for people who couldn't get an airline job.
There really is a shortage of G1s and 2s, of people that CASA will approve as Heads of Operations down the track.

If you have thought about teaching before and are the kind of person who can get satisfaction from seeing your students progress then what you have to do now is find a school where you will be valued, that can offer a career path (not empty promises, you've had enough of them already) and convince them that you are worth them investing their time in mentoring you, that you won't bugger off as soon as you get your G2. Gain respect by never, ever agreeing to do odd jobs or admin for nothing or sham contracting. Learn about the things they don't teach you in instructor school, your legal and moral responsibilities and ethics. If you want to be a respected member of the instructing community remember that poaching work from others will get you blacklisted in a small industry with long memories.

An instructing career will take a while to establish, but would be far more compatible with your family life and good health, plus your maturity would be a positive advantage.

Everything happens for a reason!

[Squawk7700]

I’ve known CPL’s that have joined the raaf under 30 if that’s an option for you.

[Cedrik]

Are there any Family businesses left? Before the decline of GA every town had a family business that did training and an odd charter and trained the bulk of pilots with the big schools like Cessnock being the exception.

[grant.lebronte]

There are great opportunities for people who want to make instructing a career. It is not, as some like to sneer, just a crap job for people who couldn't get an airline job.
There really is a shortage of G1s and 2s, of people that CASA will approve as Heads of Operations down the track.

If you have thought about teaching before and are the kind of person who can get satisfaction from seeing your students progress then what you have to do now is find a school where you will be valued, that can offer a career path (not empty promises, you've had enough of them already) and convince them that you are worth them investing their time in mentoring you, that you won't bugger off as soon as you get your G2. Gain respect by never, ever agreeing to do odd jobs or admin for nothing or sham contracting. Learn about the things they don't teach you in instructor school, your legal and moral responsibilities and ethics. If you want to be a respected member of the instructing community remember that poaching work from others will get you blacklisted in a small industry with long memories.

An instructing career will take a while to establish, but would be far more compatible with your family life and good health, plus your maturity would be a positive advantage.

Everything happens for a reason!

That is a really good piece of advice. I am going to try that! I'll carefully approach flying schools with the things you've mentioned and see how I go.

Cheers! G

[tossbag]

I'm not taking taxpayers money, nor am I doing integrated courses or diplomas, so it's not a comparison.

uhm, you're taking money, so I think you should be issuing the same guarantee.

​​​​​​​But if you must know 100% of my CPLs in the last ten years have had a job lined up for them before they did the test, because they did the networking on the hour building phase. The last one to do a test had the employer waiting in reception to organise the check to line before they even had a chance to get some lunch.

100%...........100% Well, that is remarkable and outstanding. In 35 years of aviation I have never seen anything like this :D

​​​​​​​CPL preparation (not training, as the units of competency are the same as PPL) isn't my core business and they have to convince me they will be capable of getting a CPL, being an asset to an employer and upholding my reputation before I will take them on for CPL preparation. They also have to have all exams passed and a minimum of 175 hours total and 100 in command.

How does one convince you of this? I'm genuinely interested, and intrigued.

[Clare Prop]

It's pretty straightforward. Would I want to employ them myself, yes or no.

[tossbag]

Would I want to employ them myself, yes or no.

I've made that mistake, and employed, and got burnt. I'm no where near 100%

[Clare Prop]

I've made that mistake, and employed, and got burnt. I'm no where near 100%
Well, I learned the hard way for sure.

[Clare Prop]

Plenty of Pilot jobs around at the moment.

Year 1 SE Piston: $50K income - $500 repaid
Year 2 SE Turbine: $60K income - $1,500 repaid
Year 3 ME Piston: $70K income - $2,800 repaid
Year 4 ME Turbine: $85K income - $4,650 repaid
Years 5 - 7 Jet FO: $130,000 income - $35,100 repaid
Years 7 - 13 Jet CMD: $210,000 income - $126,000 repaid

13 years to pay off $165,000 HECS debt. So an 18 year old finishing the uni course at 21 could be on $200+K a year as a 35 year old and HECS debt free.

I've done a rough calculation using the repayments you have said, which which are all thousands of dollars less than the indexation for that year..

By my reckoning by the time you take the 7% indexation rate and compounding into account, you won't be debt free after 13 years. The debt will have ballooned to $233000. about 41% more than the original balance and you would have been charges around $187000 in indexation to go backwards.

Still think it's a good deal?

Imagine if you had invested that instead...you can bet someone else has got very rich and they aren't working as a pilot. Check the cars in the flying school car park.
Who remembers NK and his smug mug on the rich list having fleeced the system of $66 million via these loans?

[43Inches]

I've done a rough calculation using the repayments you have said.

By my reckoning by the time you take the 7% indexation rate and compounding into account, you won't be debt free after 13 years. The debt will have ballooned to $233000. about 41% more than the original balance and you would paid around $187000 in indexation to go backwards.

Still think it's a good deal?
Imagine if you had invested that instead...you can bet someone else has.

Don't forget that the debt will seriously affect your ability to get loans for anything else. So you might be education debt free by 35 but you have prolonged your entry into the housing market etc by a long time. There's no such thing as easy/free money thats loaned, debt is debt.

[deja vu]

I don't understand. Spend $165,000 that you don't have and then look for advice after.

[Clare Prop]

Better still, get some qualifications, get a trade or profession, work, buy a house, then if you don't have the cash use the equity in that house to pay for your flying as you go..

The other problem with ballooning HELP debt is that when you realise that your rather expensive Diploma/Bachelors in Aviation is as much use in the industry as a chocolate teapot, you are maxed out and can't use the HELP what it was intended for, ie to help people fund training as a investment in their (and the taxpayers, because it is our money) future and to fill industry needs...instead of seeing graphs like this, which BTW is 2020 when the indexation was 1.8%. It is now 7.1%.



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/643x466/hecs_graph_667b7065e9f71c7f27b9544c072432d45933d374.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/339x35/hecs_2_73dd4653f5bfe85dff0f4f54dd0ffeead62da691.jpg




Source: Australian Taxation Office

[aussieflyboy]

7.1% is an outlier of an indexation rate. It’s generally not that high and is a direct result of the affects of Covid. Remember in 2021 it was 0.6%.

The ten year average is 2.5%.

$165,000 is a ridiculous amount for a CPL. You should have shopped around.

Remember not everyone has a rich mummy and daddy. The HECS HELP loan program has helped many good pilots become pilots many years earlier had they worked and payed upfront.

[Runaway Gun]

Just how do you know even who to ask before you get into the industry?

Glossy magazine articles promoting becoming an airline pilot, due to the upcoming shortage, are surrounded by advertisements. Go to any school and they’ll tell you of the impending boom. Talk to an airline pilot and there’s a fair chance you found a good one who worked hard and also may have gotten lucky and rode the gravy train to a successful jet career.
Or maybe read the Airline CEO’s press release about giving back to aviation, whereby they open a major airline training school. In small writing there is something about debt, and the possibility of maybe interviewing for the airline upon completion of training.

I suspect a high proportion of those that borrow for their CPL have simply fallen for the hype.

[Squawk7700]

7.1% is an outlier of an indexation rate. It’s generally not that high and is a direct result of the affects of Covid. Remember in 2021 it was 0.6%.

The ten year average is 2.5%.

$165,000 is a ridiculous amount for a CPL. You should have shopped around.

Remember not everyone has a rich mummy and daddy. The HECS HELP loan program has helped many good pilots become pilots many years earlier had they worked and payed upfront.

Spot on.

You’re paying it down too, it doesn’t just keep indexing on the rolling base.

[Clare Prop]

I've included it being paid down.

Indexation is applied on the balance on 1 June each year. Then the tax return is done and it's determined if you have had not enough or.too much deducted from your pay, in which case you either have to stump up more or get a refund just like any tax bill. Then the required amount is taken off the loan balance. That money being deducted from wages is going somewhere else until the tax office transfer it across to the debt once a year. It's not paying down the loan throughout the year.

So the only way to get it down quicker is to make a voluntary payment before 1 June.

Study and training loan indexation rates | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au) (https://www.ato.gov.au/Rates/Study-and-training-loan-indexation-rates/)

I made a stuff up on my formula in the spreadsheet and the balance, based on 7% indexation and the repayment schedule, is $193622 with $17816 in indexation costs at the end of year 13.
At 2.5% the balance after 13 years is $93219 and the indexation costs $48369. That's still a long way off being debt free. So with the indexation being what it is, you would be better off refinancing your student debt with a bank loan and paying off a big chunk in the next week.
The good news is that when you die it gets wiped and your deceased estate doesn't have to pay it back. The taxpayers have to see it getting written off.

I'm presuming you spoke to a qualified financial advisor (not a flying school salesman) when you agreed to this massive financial commitment? They have to abide by some very strict codes of ethics so you may have some recourse there. If you just bought the package from a glossy brochure then it is a case of caveat emptor.

[43Inches]

Based on some rough estimates a 200 hour CPL licence will set you back about $70,000 for aircraft hire and another $10,000 for theory and stuff. Obviously a good student/instructor combo on an integrated 150 hour course could save significantly more probably dropping that down to the $50,000 to $60,000 mark. Add $20,000 for an FIR you should not be cracking $100k. Again, the HELP whatever government courses run through universities and TAFEs is a rip off scam, for both the tax payer and the student. It may have helped the odd pilot gain employment, but also debted them up to the eyeballs, but far more has been wasted on those that haven't gone anywhere near a commercial operation. As I said earlier the better system that would have maximum benefit for the Aviation sector would have been subsidies to the actual aviation operators, not fattening the pockets of the education sector, who already make billions from keeping individuals in eternal education.

The good news is that when you die it gets wiped and your deceased estate doesn't have to pay it back. The taxpayers have to see it getting written off.

Yet, while the education debts continues to spiral out of control, and so much wealth remains in inheritance its only a matter of time before we get inheritance tax and those items come out of your estate before they are passed on.

It is quite easy to understand why the government prefers HELP/HEX/VET whatever to subsiding. The student debt method means that in theory the money comes back in and is not spent, even though the truth is far from that, and subsidies are lost revenue that is spent and is not returned.

[Clare Prop]

Yes $80grand is about right for a non integrated 200 hour CPL from go to woah.
Often that includes about double the command time of the integrated students as well, much more valuable in finding that first job than loading up with ratings.

There has been talk of changes to the debts so that they are included in a deceased estate, as they should be like any other debt to the ATO. I think that talk will get louder now that the gap between debts and repayments on the graph above is about to get a whole lot wider.

[deja vu]

7.1% is an outlier of an indexation rate. It’s generally not that high and is a direct result of the affects of Covid. Remember in 2021 it was 0.6%.

The ten year average is 2.5%.

$165,000 is a ridiculous amount for a CPL. You should have shopped around.

Remember not everyone has a rich mummy and daddy. The HECS HELP loan program has helped many good pilots become pilots many years earlier had they worked and payed upfront.

The indexation rate average over the last 10 years may have been 2.5%, but look at who was in government over most of those 10 years.

Looking at the polls today I'd say 7% will be the norm for some time to come.

[tossbag]

Just how do you know even who to ask before you get into the industry?

Glossy magazine articles promoting becoming an airline pilot, due to the upcoming shortage, are surrounded by advertisements. Go to any school and they’ll tell you of the impending boom. Talk to an airline pilot and there’s a fair chance you found a good one who worked hard and also may have gotten lucky and rode the gravy train to a successful jet career.
Or maybe read the Airline CEO’s press release about giving back to aviation, whereby they open a major airline training school. In small writing there is something about debt, and the possibility of maybe interviewing for the airline upon completion of training.

I suspect a high proportion of those that borrow for their CPL have simply fallen for the hype.

- You google the pilots award, you'll find the extremely poor wages paid to a flight instructor and ga pilot.

- You look at those glossy flyers, it will say how many hours are included in the package, you then google flight training schools, look at the hourly rates then do some calculations.

- If you can't think to yourself '****, that's a lot of money, it wouldn't cost that to become a doctor, maybe I should have a think about this' mmm, then maybe you shouldn't be a pilot.

Are just some of the ways.

If you can't do basic maths, or you did vege maths at school, you have no place becoming a pilot, as some of these people have shown. If you never thought of becoming a pilot before stumbling upon a career day or it just popped into your head one day, you should not be a pilot. The career comes with some huge challenges no matter how intelligent, how talented or how much of a natural you are and requires resilience and a good liver until you realise that that's not how to deal with things. Resilience, which none of these people have shown and is no longer taught by a school system, parents or mates. If you are lucky enough to develop it outside those places where you don't get taught, maybe you're a chance.

[Horatio Leafblower]

You have come this far chasing the dream. Your options are:
1/. Ditch it and find a job/career that will pay off the debt; or
2/. Send it, dive in, find that job. Do whatever it takes.

In the 1990s pilots would move to Darwin or Kunnunurra or Derby or Broome and get a job pulling beers, and wait. Just doing a trip up north handing out resumes will not land you a job - your prospective new employer is entrusting you with more than just an aeroplane and they want a sense of who you actually are. Very occasionally an applicant stands out as a "hire now". Most of us don't.

You only live once.
Everything in life needs to be a "**** Yeah!" otherwise it's a no.

[Ollie Onion]

These Flight Schools are taking the piss, I mean a ‘GA Ready Course!’ Give me a break. Something like a GA ready course or Flight Instructor rating should really come with a job offer to be worth anything.

[Clare Prop]

The integrated course with a whole lot of ratings doesn't prepare people for GA. They dress the students up in a pilot costume, get them to do a one size fits all follow the bouncing ball course which is never done in the minimum hours they quoted, and make them think that they are going to get the big prize of an airline job and earn megabucks on graduation. Well, we all know how that turns out for the majority of them.

I actually thought that GA ready courses were an april fools joke but having met some of the graduates of some integrated courses they really would need to do a lot more if they have to "lower themselves" to doing a job where that snowy white shirt might get a bit of red dirt or oil on it and god forbid they may need to refuel their own aeroplane and even look out of the window instead of following a magenta line.

If people want to work in GA and the many careers in that field they should do non-integrated, where you will be job ready when you qualify, ie have command time on relevant airframes and have gone out and done your hour building using your own initiative to gain valuable experience flying Day VFR.

[43Inches]

The integrated course with a whole lot of ratings doesn't prepare people for GA. They dress the students up in a pilot costume, get them to do a one size fits all follow the bouncing ball course which is never done in the minimum hours they quoted, and make them think that they are going to get the big prize of an airline job and earn megabucks on graduation. Well, we all know how that turns out for the majority of them.

I actually thought that GA ready courses were an april fools joke but having met some of the graduates of some integrated courses they really would need to do a lot more if they have to "lower themselves" to doing a job where that snowy white shirt might get a bit of red dirt or oil on it and god forbid they may need to refuel their own aeroplane and even look out of the window instead of following a magenta line.

If people want to work in GA and the many careers in that field they should do non-integrated, where you will be job ready when you qualify, ie have command time on relevant airframes and have gone out and done your hour building using your own initiative to gain valuable experience flying Day VFR.

Its the same in all industries at the moment. In the old days you had industry placement and apprenticeships. Now a lot of uni courses skip placements so that the first time an engineer sees a real work environment is day one of employment and so on.

The CPL course like a drivers licence and heavy vehicle license is about providing the candidate with the minimum required skills to be able to start off at a base line. It was always accepted that experience added on top of that made the pilot, otherwise even CASA would not have minimum hours for various positions and further qualifications.

If I wanted a new mechanic for my BMW repair shop and there was no experience help available I would not expect a freshly minted TAFE trainee to know the ins and outs of BMWs. Instead I'd take them on as an apprentice and show them how it's done, then pay them well to keep them once they do it to a high standard.

[Mach E Avelli]

The integrated course with a whole lot of ratings doesn't prepare people for GA. They dress the students up in a pilot costume, get them to do a one size fits all follow the bouncing ball course which is never done in the minimum hours they quoted, and make them think that they are going to get the big prize of an airline job and earn megabucks on graduation. Well, we all know how that turns out for the majority of them.

I actually thought that GA ready courses were an april fools joke but having met some of the graduates of some integrated courses they really would need to do a lot more if they have to "lower themselves" to doing a job where that snowy white shirt might get a bit of red dirt or oil on it and god forbid they may need to refuel their own aeroplane and even look out of the window instead of following a magenta line.

If people want to work in GA and the many careers in that field they should do non-integrated, where you will be job ready when you qualify, ie have command time on relevant airframes and have gone out and done your hour building using your own initiative to gain valuable experience flying Day VFR.
Exactly.

If the OP wants to salvage his dire situation, and if he has any money left at all, he should round up a few mates, hire a C206, throw beer, fishing gear, a tent and swags in the boot and head off on some cost-sharing trips around the bush. If he could find another pilot needing PIC, they could do a combined 50 hours. Each could only log 25 hours as PIC - and none as 'co-pilot' (don't even think about doing that) - but could log the other 25 as observer or supernumerary, not counting it towards total flying hours of course.
Take advantage of the trip to throw a few resume's around during refuel stops. Approaching the chief pilot from airside could be advantageous.
It's only exposure to the real world of GA that's going to help him now.

[Clare Prop]

Yep, all that pushing the boundaries of the comfort zone, networking and having a great time should be done before CPL ideally.
I've had CPs call me and say "Has X that was up here hour building a few weeks ago got their CPL yet because I need a pilot that's got experience in remote areas"

[ravan]

Exactly what Clare Prop said at Post #117! I'm glad I'm retired from the flying school scene. I recall having a few 'robust' discussions with a marketing manager who was exuberantly 'selling the dream" and suggesting that he might like to temper it with a touch of reality.
By the time the academics from CASA had finished with the syllabus and all the boxes were ticked during training, there was precious little time or money left to properly equip a student for the commercial world.

[43Inches]

Exactly what Clare Prop said at Post #117! I'm glad I'm retired from the flying school scene. I recall having a few 'robust' discussions with a marketing manager who was exuberantly 'selling the dream" and suggesting that he might like to temper it with a touch of reality.
By the time the academics from CASA had finished with the syllabus and all the boxes were ticked during training, there was precious little time or money left to properly equip a student for the commercial world.

The problem you have is that you are selling something that the customer is already dreaming about. If you give them a dreary picture of that dream they will just go to the next place that sells the picture of the dream they envisage. As said before the best way to really sell a commercial ready course is to have a job lined up at the end of it. It might not be permanent full time work, but something that gets the hours ticking over for a start.

Marketing/advertising will never reflect reality, otherwise why pay for marketing, it sells what could be under the perfect conditions. The key is not to promise anything you could be sued for later, hence all the little * and fine print even on TV ads.

GA has generally suffered from terrible marketing, with excuses I've heard range from expense, to 'if I advertise, everyone gets more students not just us'.

If I remember correctly a particular flying school used to have the slogan "First in flight training" because they were located on First street Moorabbin.

[zegnaangelo]

a few comments. i think HECs (do they still call it that?) / VET is a double edged sword. however i thought that it was a great way to get people who could not afford it to get a CPL. 20 years ago when I looked, there was no such thing and i wondered how on earth people could afford a CPL which was quoted at c.50k-75k at that time. Having VET, one has more options, and the potential for an airline career is more attainable.

Also, VET/HEC (do they still call it that?) indexation is a fair thing - better than forcing a student to take out a student loan. For a long time this indexation was running at 2-3%, and one could get out ahead by simply investing the excess money in the stock market. However the 15% discount was a great incentive to pay it off quickly....

[grant.lebronte]

Exactly.

If the OP wants to salvage his dire situation, and if he has any money left at all, he should round up a few mates, hire a C206, throw beer, fishing gear, a tent and swags in the boot and head off on some cost-sharing trips around the bush. If he could find another pilot needing PIC, they could do a combined 50 hours. Each could only log 25 hours as PIC - and none as 'co-pilot' (don't even think about doing that) - but could log the other 25 as observer or supernumerary, not counting it towards total flying hours of course.
Take advantage of the trip to throw a few resume's around during refuel stops. Approaching the chief pilot from airside could be advantageous.
It's only exposure to the real world of GA that's going to help him now.

Appreciate that. I am planning to make a final trip to Darwin, Katherine, Alice and Broome (and maybe a few others). I'll probably base myself in Katherine for longer but was very worried about the crime levels there last time. I spent some time in Katherine and met the Kath Av operator there and in the 2 weeks I was there, the shop windows at the service station were smashed in by Aboriginals and the next door neighbour at the place I stayed was broken into. So it's all good and well for people here to say "base yourself in Alice" or somewhere else but then there's the insane crime levels at some of these places which I've seen first hand. You cannot walk down the main street of Katherine without feeling like you are going to get robbed! Almost all of the shop windows are boarded up in Katherine. It's a dangerous place. When I spent time in Alice Springs, I saw the level of street crime I've never seen before. I had previously been to Alice in 2014. I also spent time in Alice looking for a flying job very recently and you cannot go outside at night. It's too dangerous now! Much of this youth violence is moving north through Katherine and up into Darwin.

In a final note, I rented a car in Darwin to drive out to Jabiru and meet and greet the pilots there and the lady I spoke to who has lived in Darwin all of her life said the crime in Darwin is the worst it has ever been. According to her, this "crime wave" has moved from Alice Springs and the surrounding "communities". So this is an element to the pilot job hunt that nobody has really talked about. I have felt more save walking through the slums in Brazil (2013- years ago!) then hanging around Katherine and Alice.

G

[grant.lebronte]

Just a thought - what about Namibia or Botswana? I haven't searched the forum yet but anyone reading this thread have any experience in breaking that market?

[CDRW]

I don't understand. Spend $165,000 that you don't have and then look for advice after.
Well deja vu old chap - if only it was as simplistic and easy as making an asinine comment such as that that.

Grant certainly look into going out to Southern Africa - that has been many the stomping ground - particularly for European wanna be pilots. You can get a years' worth of VFR flying - snow free!

[Mach E Avelli]

Just a thought - what about Namibia or Botswana? I haven't searched the forum yet but anyone reading this thread have any experience in breaking that market?
I don't know much about flying in Africa, only having been briefly in and out a few times. But from what I saw in Sierra Leone and Nigeria, the crime rate was pretty bad, and whites were seen as targets. It seems we now have a few towns in Australia descended to similar levels.
On the other hand, I had a positive experience in Rwanda, but at the time the place was buzzing with U.N. peace keeping forces. Apparently it's not so safe now.
However, I have met a few pilots who really enjoyed their time in G.A. in Africa, so it can't all be bad. Being such a vast continent with so many different governments and cultures, there must be a few good places.
Research first, not just on these forums, but through various government travel advisories.

[Clare Prop]

Re the crime rates, one of our aircraft used to do a fair bit of remote flying but now it’s complicated by the way there are lot of places where you can’t leave the aircraft overnight as it will be vandalised, and there is no safe accomodation for the pilots either. Society has completely broken down in some places now.

[43Inches]

I'm not sure comparing Sierra Leone problems with Australia will get you much draw. Having your wallet or car stolen is a far way from being murdered with a machete for going down the wrong road. Or being shot and your car stolen just for stopping at an intersection at a red light.

In any case I know quite a few that have lived in Africa and survived, some pilots in central to southern Africa had some fun, but witnessed a lot of eye openers. And its not all Antonovs and ageing 60s equipment, some GA over there actually have modern, even new, equipment.

[megan]

one of our aircraft used to do a fair bit of remote flying but now it’s complicated by the way there are lot of places where you can’t leave the aircraft overnight as it will be vandalised, and there is no safe accomodation for the pilots either. Society has completely broken down in some places nowAll fixed when we get the "Voice".

[Clare Prop]

I don’t think anything is going to fix it :(

[CDRW]

That is why I quite specific to mention Southern Africa - Not central or West Africa (Kenya would be the exception here), not North Africa.
Botswana, Zambia, Zimbabwe and South Africa would be good stomping grounds to get some good GA experience.

[Mach E Avelli]

Re the crime rates, one of our aircraft used to do a fair bit of remote flying but now it’s complicated by the way there are lot of places where you can’t leave the aircraft overnight as it will be vandalised, and there is no safe accomodation for the pilots either. Society has completely broken down in some places now.
A bit off-thread now, but one of the reasons I sold my delightful little Sonex was because I was worried about where I could safely park it while away. Even leaving it overnight at Rottnest would have worried me. There be Bogans at Rotto
I get it that poor people would steal stuff that they could sell. But selling aircraft gear is not so easy, and simply vandalising property for ****s and giggles... a good kicking is what 'the voice' needs to prescribe for this. I'm not holding my breath.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Best keep away from that subject on this thread, keep on topic!

[smiling monkey]

The first job is always the hardest to get. We’ve all been 200 hour CPLs before so I know what you’re going through.

This looks like a good opportunity for you.

https://www.afap.org.au/pilot-jobs/pilot-job/3804/FLIGHTINSTRUCTORS%E2%80%93GRADE1,2AND3?

Give it your best shot and good luck.

[grant.lebronte]

The first job is always the hardest to get. We’ve all been 200 hour CPLs before so I know what you’re going through.

This looks like a good opportunity for you.

https://www.afap.org.au/pilot-jobs/pilot-job/3804/FLIGHTINSTRUCTORS%E2%80%93GRADE1,2AND3?

Give it your best shot and good luck.

I really appreciate it! I saw this ad only 2 or so days ago! I applied last night. I've come to learn the job market in Australia is really bad (for entry level GA flying jobs). I will head up to the Top End one more time for a few months and study a trade or something on the side. If I have no luck by the end of 2023, I'm going to shoot off to Africa and play the waiting game over there. Maybe Namibia for 3 months on a tourist visa. It appears as though Botswana has a 500 hour TT minima for work permits nowadays. From what I've read, the crime is a lot less in Windhoek (Namibia) than in Alice Springs or Katherine. As mentioned, I played the waiting game in Alice and Katherine and could not leave my hostel at night (too dangerous according to the locals).

Appreciate everyone's input and help. I'll hit the ground running and check-in again in 6 months or so. All the best to everyone!

Grant

[43Inches]

Have you applied to all the larger flying schools? Even ones like the Rex school in Wagga and other country based colleges. I'm pretty sure all the large schools are struggling for any instructional staff and they generally have the experienced staff to monitor you while a junior instructor.

As for the dangers in central Australia, please try to be sensible. Your biggest fear in Alice is being in a punch up with some drunks who might roll you for your shoes with at most a knife, yes you might be broken into in certain areas and your wallet stolen. Generally while the locals might stare at you and make you feel 'uneasy' your life is not really threatened as of yet. Namibia while relatively safe for an African country most crime is armed holdups with guns as the weapons, and also kidnapping of tourists for hostage demands. Carjackings are still a threat and the police are corrupt and often in on the crime. In most of these countries the people will be friendly and welcoming until they are not, which is usually when you have gone somewhere you should not and then you are already beyond the point of no return, good luck. So until the locals of Australia start carrying around AKs, murdering tourists and killing you for your car at an intersection they will never be anywhere near as dangerous as parts of Africa can be.

Ie going out at night and having rocks thrown at you by some drunk kids does not equal being robbed at gun point or taken hostage.

Go take a holiday in the highlands of PNG, when a bunch of Rascols come out of the bush with Machetes and AKs you will know the difference between dangerous and not, and will need a new set of undies and therapy for the next few years.

[runway16]

I see a future entry job problem rising with the Government now saying they are going to open the door to bulk Kiwis. Love those Kiwis as I do I see a situation where bulk new NZ CPLs are going to migrate to the land of milk and honey (Australia) as they see it with the view that they all pick up that first job here. It appears that Kiwi land has the same problem as Australia in that too many flight schools are training more CPLs than the system has jobs for.
'Get your CPL and then go across to Australia to pick up that first job and experience' is what they appear to be told.
R

[43Inches]

I've worked with a lot of Kiwis that have come to Australia for flying work, pretty sure it's been an open door for a long time, nothing new. A lot went back to work in Kiwi land as soon as they got some experience up and are flying there now.

[Squawk7700]

Yep, the Kiwis have been stealing our low end pilot jobs for a solid while now.

[Lead Balloon]

Yep. TTMRA.

[Checkboard]

a situation where bulk new NZ CPLs are going to migrate to the land of milk and honey (Australia) as they see it with the view that they all pick up that first job here.
The entire country of New Zealand has about the same population as Melbourne alone, so I can't see this a a massive wave.

[Sihawk]

Perfect idea. I'd be in that!

[WannaBeBiggles]

Some great information in this thread, but I'll add a little.

Getting your first job is much like getting your next job, and the ones after until you retire. It's all about attitude.

If you go in with a short term mentality and an attitude that you will only try for a short time, or that life in certain areas is just too tough, then this will quickly become evident to potential employers because they know you won't be around for long. Like it or not, training people costs time and money, so most employers try to hedge their bets and invest that time in someone who has at least sold themselves as someone who is committed and not easily deterred.
Another thing that will kill someones chances is if the employer feels that the person comes across with an attitude that the world owes them something, or that the false hope a city flying school sold them is owed to them, regardless of what the true reality presented to them might indicate. Not saying this is you of course, but just a note.

Flying out remote is tough, but rewarding. But if Katherine and Darwin are a bit too rough for you, then being based out in a remote community is unfortunately not for you. Stay a couple of nights in Elliot or Angurugu and your perspectives on how "bad" Darwin is will change quite quickly.

Some people do have a golden run in this industry, I had a mate I trained with that got a job a week after their CPL and was in a jet 12 months after that. In the meantime it took me 3 years to clock 500TT after landing my first job. I drove buses and boats and did other jobs to keep myself going. What I can tell you for an absolute fact is that no two people I have spoken to has had the same run. I always felt like I was at the back end of the drag curve during my career, with bad timing when l started just after the industry turned from boom to bust and companies going belly up, but I persevered and now I'm sitting in the window seat of a widebody.

I'm by no means trying to trash you or your decisions, we've all made decisions that in retrospect weren't ideal, but no matter the mistakes or setbacks it's what you do afterwards that will define you.