want to clarify HOW OLD IS TO OLD

[abcde]

About yesterdays question on how old is to old. I wanted to know can a person just starting out at age 44 make a living at being
a prof pilot. @ at some point support a family. Thanks for your help.Looking for HONEST ADVISE..

[BigTimeWannabe]

There is nothing stoping you becoming a prof pilot at 44, but don't forget you have to get qualified, which take over a year. Then you have to get sufficient hours under your belt. Then you have to look for jobs and get interviewed etc. By that time how old would you be?

Say you do get a seat at a major airline. But were you aware of the fact that BA's pilot retirement age is 55! Your starting pay is no more than 2,500 pounds max! Depending on how much you earn now, you could be better off becoming a pro pilot. Don't forget training costs that you have to break-even aswell!!

BTW

[Captain Mainwaring]

Could you survive on an Instructors salary of approx £10,000 for maybe a season or two?
Landing a job straight away as an F/O, probably on turboprops, you will need great luck or the help of someone on the inside.
F/O pay averages maybe £20-25,000 - could you survive on that for possibly 2-3 years until the bond is cleared or the Jet job offer materialises?
It can be done,but you are right to consider the hard realities behind the dream.

[RVR800]

Age is a red herring - its experience that counts

The trouble is 'what' experience and catch 22
no job no experience etc..

e.g Experience of circuits in a C150 or
single crew IFR Air-taxi. A lot of the
latter will give you the edge regardless
of age.

Older people tend to be more cautious but are slower to learn - It'll be harder
for you but its not impossible

[Herod]

You're going to find it bloody hard, but I admire your guts in even thinking of trying. Good luck, hope to see you in the seat sometime.

[inverted flatspin]

Quite do able in the US lots of people flying for the regionals started in their forties some have even made it to the majors.

[JimNich]

RVR800,

your last sentence hits the nail on the head. This is very much the attitude held by the major airlines (old dog, new tricks and all that).

The point they are missing though (and I don't fully accept that older people do digest information slower anyway) is that more mature people are generally KEENER to learn. Just look at how many folks take up OU in later life.

I'm heading for forty and am working my way through my licences now and I'm sick of the (corporate) attitude that you're over the hill at 35.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard a rumour that its actually illegal in the US to be "ageist" when hiring personnel.

[DogsBolx]

I have 2000 hours inc single pilot IFR (frightened myself to death) and turbine time BUT I'm 37! This is considered to be "too long in the tooth" for many firms. Even though the market is opening up, you'll need all the luck in the world.... http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[EGKK]

Its a VERY tough environment to get into - and it will seem very unfair to you at your age if you try to apply common sense and conventional (i.e. non-airline) commercial wisdom. I endorse all the previous comments and would add the following thoughts gained through personal experience. Firstly, you need to understand that airline management will be totally blind to your life experiences and achievements, academic or otherwise. Instead, it will simply expect that pilots at age X will have achieved certain levels of flying experience at the rate of 600-700 hours per year with a clock beginning at age 25. By age 40, you should ideally have 15 times 600 = 9000 hours under your belt and so on. Anyone not on this experience "curve" will be instantly identified as "different" and the rules for becoming employed dictate that their chances will be significantly lowered. However, there are a few ways that you can improve your chances and the following are some common ways to beat the age/hours equation if you want to be employed as a jet pilot. Very important at this stage is that you must already have a frozen ATLP, or be a complete novice prepared to part with up to £50,000, or be half-way between the two. If you have neither, do not bother to read on.

a) Be ex-military: even if you were a flight engineer you will have a service record and you have already shown that you are made of the "right stuff".

b) Do a type rating and target companies operating the same type - this works if you know that you can pass the sim ride and provided that the market is desperate for pilots on type (clue: easyjet/ryanair need 100's of pilots now).

c) Network like a lunatic (one person I know was about to give up totally but managed to land a job at a low-cost airline because he was "in" with the chief pilot - it stinks I know but that's this industry for you).

d) If you can afford it, work on turbo-props delivering newspapers for three years. Alternatively, take any paying flight work, even on a Seneca.

This list is not exhaustive - however, the bottom line is that if you are "older than normal", then its going to be tough - though not necessarily impossible. Having achieved the near-impossible myself and landed a jet job aged 39 years, I'm now beginning to realise that the ageism will continue to be there throughout my remaining (potentially 22 year) career as I fight for consideration, initially for command, then for training positions (etc, etc) against younger candidates. This fact should be considered seriously by anyone with a successful management career in another industry because the frustration, whilst it might not be a problem during the "honeymoon" period of transition to the role of professional pilot, could grind you down in the end. This applies especially you have worked as a manager in fast-paced industries such as finance or technology as, inevitably, you will also begin to question the quality of airline management in general. A final thought for serious older wannabees is that, whilst this job is generally good (even great sometimes) it's not worth making a major financial sacrifice for in the long-run. There are many easier and cheaper ways to experience what its like to fly a jet beginning with £69.99 for "FS2000" and $29.99 for "767 Pilot In Command".

[aztruck]

EGKK, what a huge amount of sense you talk. Excellent post. Its pretty much what I had imagined but its nice to have confirmation.

[Flaps r fun]

I am 40 and have held a frozen ATPL/IR for just over seven years. I have now stopped writing and applying for work. In all the years of trying I never even came close to getting hired. I am not talking jets, I tried every piston operator I could find, including aErial photography, (that is photographs from the air, not pictures of aerials) air taxi, flying eye etc. I know of one pilot who now works as an instructor at a major flying college in the south of England, he has over 2000hrs including 500 multi. He has never even been called for an interview, he is about 45.
Unless you know someone who will give you a job, my advice would be to save your money and just enjoy flying as a PPL.

[This message has been edited by Flaps r fun (edited 16 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Flaps r fun (edited 16 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Flaps r fun (edited 17 March 2001).]

[aztec25]

No-oe would doubt you need luck in this game. There have been posts over recent months which have referred to over 40s with low hours getting jobs! You often have to make your own luck in life!
aztec

[Flaps r fun]

Aztec
Yes there are posts re: older pilots getting jobs with low hours. How many of them had friends or relations in the right place?
Lots of people win the lottery every week, but what are your chances of winning?
The fact remains that it is very difficult to get a job if you are older.

[backdraftuk]

I think this is one of the most sensible threads that I have read here for a good while. I too am the wrong side of 40 and must have got one of the last BCPLs issued (sorry must remember to call it a frozen ATPL then I can delude myself it is something more than basic). I think us old farts must be realistic, viz:

All the money we spent on flying is a gamble and the odds are not to good, so only bet what you can afford to lose.

As EGKK stated if you fall outside the normal age/experience curve you will need something else on your C.V. to save it from immediate dispatch to the big recycling bin on the floor.

And most importantly to second EGKK’s “Network, network, network” add another network. If you are applying cold for a job there is the “Human Resources” hurdle and if that happens to be in the hands of a HR professional you will fall, since you,
 Will not fit with the age/experience model.
 Will be seen as to set in your ways to fit in with the company culture.
 Will “Obviously struggle” working with younger people with seniority over you.


If however you are “know” it becomes a case of,
 Can they do the job?
 Do I want to work with them?
 Will they let me down?
 How do I get them past HR?

Am I about to give up the hunt? No as several times in my working life I have been told I do not meet the criteria for a job as I was to old/young or over qualified/lacked qualifications. However since they knew me and I was available, “I could do the job until the post was filled by a permanent employee”. Net result, I became that employee. Where there is a job there is hope.

And finally..

Job specifications are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

[muppet]

You must be positive.
If it is of any use I just got a job; age 40.

:) :) :) :)

[rock_the_tower]

I am 36 and I recently got hired by Crossair. Have only 230 hrs including 50 hrs multi on a Seneca. I didn't know anybody who could play the vitamine B game for me.
If you REALLY want to fly, you'll find a job sooner or later. May be not the 200'000 US$ job with just 50 block hours a month on a 747-400, but you finally get paid by what you love....and that's flying folks !

Good luck to all my "old" fellas !

rtt

[HomerSimpson]

I dont think it matters very much really what age you are. It all depends on the job you're applying for. If you start your CPL/IR course at 50 years old (which I know someone who did) your might only get looked at by AOC companies and maybe a regional operator. When it comes to training people, airlines want to see a good return on the money they invest in us. The longer they keep hold of 'us' the better. However, if I was 50 and never had the chance to fly commercially and wanted to change careers I would be the first in the queue for the AOC and regional operators!
You can achieve anything if you put your mind to it. How many of us were told at school, you'll never be a pilot? Or theres no way you'll get a job with the airlines? How many of you reading this post regardless of age, are sitting in the left or right hand seat of a shiny jet of turbo prop? It all bears down to what you want, if its the love of flying, well your're in the right place whatever age you are.
Good luck to all,
Regards,
Homer ;)

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