Reported Pause in RAF White Recruiting To Meet Diversity Targets

[RAFEngO74to09]

"EXCLUSIVE: The RAF has effectively paused making job offers to white male recruits in favour of women & ethnic minorities to meet "impossible" diversity targets, sources claim. The head of
@RoyalAirForce (https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce) recruitment has resigned in protest, they said.

The defence sources accused @ChiefofAirStaff (https://twitter.com/ChiefofAirStaff) Sir Mike Wigston, the head of the RAF, of appearing willing to compromise UK security at a time of growing threats from Russia and China in pursuit of albeit important goals such as improving diversity and inclusion.

One of the defence sources noted how General Sir Patrick Sanders, the head of the @BritishArmy (https://twitter.com/BritishArmy) , has likened today's security challenges to those in the build-up to the Second World War, warning that the UK is facing its "1937 moment".

Then you look at the head of the RAF and he's prepared to break the operational requirement of the air force just to meet diversity [targets]," the source said. “I think he needs to be hauled up by the Ministry of Defence and told: This is the defence agenda, get on it."

An RAF spokesperson disputed the allegations. “There is no pause in @RoyalAirForce (https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce) recruitment and no new policy with regards to meeting in-year recruitment requirements," the spokesperson said.

“Royal Air Force commanders will not shy away from the challenges we face building a service that attracts and recruits talent from every part of the UK workforce,” the spokesperson said.

“As with the Royal Navy and British Army, we are doing everything we can to encourage recruiting from under-represented groups and ensure we have a diverse workforce."

“The Royal Air Force has a well-earned reputation for operational excellence that is founded on the quality of all our people. We will always seek to recruit the best talent available to us,” the spokesperson said.

But another of the defence sources insisted that there has been an "effective pause" on making an offer of employment to white male recruits.

Also responding to questions from @SkyNews (https://twitter.com/SkyNews) , a @DefenceHQ (https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ) spokesperson said: "Operational effectiveness is of paramount importance and no one is lowering the standards to join the Royal Air Force.

“The RAF recruits for many professions and, like the rest of the armed forces, is determined to be a force that reflects the society it serves to protect."

(6) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "EXCLUSIVE: The RAF has effectively paused making job offers to white male recruits in favour of women & ethnic minorities to meet "impossible" diversity targets, sources claim. The head of @RoyalAirForce recruitment has resigned in protest, they said 1/ https://t.co/JHcu7LbyUW" / Twitter

RAF 'pauses job offers for white men' to meet 'impossible' diversity targets | UK News | Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/raf-pauses-job-offers-for-white-men-to-meet-impossible-diversity-targets-12674409)

[Bob Viking]

I don’t normally comment on such things but I can’t help it on this occasion.

I have a very cunning plan for how the RAF could meet its diversity targets within 12 months. If all the white males PVR immediately the RAF will be made up purely of the desired demographics within a year. I’ve done my bit already. Only about another 20-25000 to go. Problem solved.

BV
​​​​​​​

[blimey]

All the gentlemen declaring themselves to be ladies would also crack it.

[57mm]

Do the diversity targets include LGBTQI folks?

[Avionker]

I don’t normally comment on such things but I can’t help it on this occasion.

I have a very cunning plan for how the RAF could meet its diversity targets within 12 months. If all the white males PVR immediately the RAF will be made up purely of the desired demographics within a year. I’ve done my bit already. Only about another 20-25000 to go. Problem solved.

BV


Would probably do it. I was somewhat surprised to see the RAF is a little more than half the size it was when I left in ‘99. Even then it was down by 35k bodies from when I joined in ‘84.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Looks like Air Commodore Jo Lincoln has deleted a Twitter post from a few days ago where she stated how proud she was to be working with her recruiting & community engagement team which had the usual cast of rainbow charachters in all the photos - except any white males - which attracted some pithy responses from retired officers!

[ShyTorque]

If there is truth to this rumour, maybe the RAF needs to remind itself that they should actually just recruit the best candidates for the job, irrespective of creed, colour, race, gender or anything else.

The country needs the best service people it can get and not bow down to any other agenda.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Someone has reported the non-white target for 2022 was 14% rising to 16% in 2023.

I expect the next step will be using ethnicity as a lever in determining any future mandatory redundancies - like happened with age bands by branch during the big cuts following DCS.

[Jobza Guddun]

ST,

I believe the vast majority of the serving RAF would agree with that. Unfortunately a vocal minority think otherwise.

[MPN11]

I joined in 1965 and left in 1993.
1965 -132k
1993 - 81k

2016 - 33k

Interesting FOO link >>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/628180/2017-04440.pdf

I have always subscribed to the best man/woman for the job.

[NutLoose]

Surely that opens the RAF up to being sued by applicants on the grounds of racial prejudice or discrimination, it’s a two way door.

What discrimination isDiscrimination is when someone is treated unfairly for any of these reasons:

age (https://www.acas.org.uk/acas-guide-on-age-discrimination)
disability (https://www.acas.org.uk/disability-discrimination)
gender reassignment
marriage or civil partnership
pregnancy and maternity (https://www.acas.org.uk/managing-your-employees-maternity-leave-and-pay/discrimination-because-of-pregnancy-and-maternity)
race (https://www.acas.org.uk/race-discrimination) (including colour, nationality, ethnic and national origin)
religion or belief (https://www.acas.org.uk/acas-guide-to-religion-or-belief-discrimination)
sex
sexual orientation

These are called 'protected characteristics' under the law (the Equality Act 2010). Discrimination based on any of these protected characteristics is usually against the law.


https://www.acas.org.uk/discrimination-and-the-law

[rolling20]

The Commonwealth war cemeteries of Northern Europe and beyond are filled with our glorious war dead.
The vast majority white and most definitely male.
The RAF had better explain that one to them.

[charliegolf]

We need the best 7-year holding pilots we can get, not a quota. We can't have anything but the best. Holding.

CG

[Mortmeister]

If there is truth to this rumour, maybe the RAF needs to remind itself that they should actually just recruit the best candidates for the job, irrespective of creed, colour, race, gender or anything else.

The country needs the best service people it can get and not bow down to any other agenda.

Spot on. Who or what you are or perceive to be is irrelevant once you put on the uniform. You become part of something much bigger than yourself. If people of any colour, creed, race or gender wish to join, they can as long as they are medically fit and qualified for the role they want.

The defence sources accused @ChiefofAirStaff (https://twitter.com/ChiefofAirStaff) Sir Mike Wigston, the head of the RAF, of appearing willing to compromise UK security at a time of growing threats from Russia and China in pursuit of albeit important goals such as improving diversity and inclusion.

When is he going to do the honourable thing and go? You might think he would have at least done something about pilot training, or maybe the crumbling infrastructure? Perhaps minorities don’t want to join because their prospective Mess is falling down and has no hot water?
I cannot comprehend how he got the job over the other candidate, a more accomplished leader I have yet to meet.
It is soul destroying seeing the service being slowly turned into a laughing stock.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Surely that opens the RAF up to being sued by applicants on the grounds of racial prejudice or discrimination, it’s a two way door.


Provided that the service can prove they were "positively discriminating" in order to benefit minority groups, I don't think that they can be sued.

[The Nip]

Looks like Air Commodore Jo Lincoln has deleted a Twitter post from a few days ago where she stated how proud she was to be working with her recruiting & community engagement team which had the usual cast of rainbow charachters in all the photos - except any white males - which attracted some pithy responses from retired officers!

She is the Boss of the Gp Capt who has handed in their resignation.

[minigundiplomat]

Wigston has to go before he does any more damage.

[NutLoose]

Here is a thought……

All white…..

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/senior-commanders/

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/non-executive-directors/ (https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/senior-commanders/)

I am sorry, but you need to be recruiting the best, not second rate to simply fill some woke agenda.

.

[GeeRam]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/non-executive-directors/ (https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/senior-commanders/)
.

WTF......is this all about!!

Non-executive directors of the RAF............seriously !!!!

I must have been living under too big a rock for the past several decades....I'm clearly too old for this modern world :{
Its the bloody armed services not some fluffy corporate civvy company :ugh:

[Confusious]

Surely that opens the RAF up to being sued by applicants on the grounds of racial prejudice or discrimination, it’s a two way door.



https://www.acas.org.uk/discrimination-and-the-law

Exactly my first thoughts.

Touchy subject, but this is a whole new level.

[vascodegama]

Positive discrimination is illegal so if this true the RAF is breaking the law. My police force fell foul of that a while ago when they stopped recruiting white males-guess what they ended on the wrong side of the law themselves.

[uxb99]

Call me simplistic but isn't the best way to find a good pilot bung anyone in a plane and see how good they are at flying it?

[Bill Macgillivray]

GeeRam, you and me both! Targets are something that we used to attack (with varied results!). Personnel, of whatever trade, are those best suited/qualified for the job and it does not matter what race, colour or creed they are if they meet this criterion and take the oath! One of my best mates was a Trinidadian navigator, that was in 1962, not many around then but he entered in the same way as any other aircrew officer and was brilliant in all ways! (Don't often say that about navs!!) Thre is something seriously amiss at present and I can only think it stems from the very top!!
Bill

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Positive discrimination is illegal so if this true the RAF is breaking the law. My police force fell foul of that a while ago when they stopped recruiting white males-guess what they ended on the wrong side of the law themselves.

It isn't illegal if the two applicants are equally as well suited to the role. Good luck proving that the RAF has fallen foul of the law on this.

[air pig]

Positive discrimination is illegal so if this true the RAF is breaking the law. My police force fell foul of that a while ago when they stopped recruiting white males-guess what they ended on the wrong side of the law themselves.

Was that the Cheshire police case?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Wigston has to go before he does any more damage.

There's also this: https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/chief-of-the-air-staff-appointed-patron-of-the-women-in-defence-charter/

[NutLoose]

Yes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-47335859

[air pig]

Wigston should be having hats on, no coffee or biscuits interview, with the Defence Secretary to give explanations of his racist and sexist discrimination regarding recruitment to what used to be the best air force in the world.

[cynicalint]

The Americans had a problem with 'positive discrimination". "Are you a real major or equality tick?"
EVERYONE must compete on a level platform - equal opportunity, best outcome.

[vascodegama]

Ewan, what is illegal to have a policy that , for example, stops recruitment of a particular group ( eg white males). If there is such a policy it is positive discrimination not positive action and against the law. Yes at the final stage of choosing between 2 otherwise equal candidates, one might use positive action but if you are not even looking at a certain group at the recruiting stage then you are acting illegally. Of course it would n’t be the first time the service has broken the law.

Air Pig it was Gloucestershire.

[NutLoose]

And by pausing the White recruitment they must be discriminating as they are not giving an equal opportunity by barring one applicant.

[Melchett01]

I despair. I’d love to think it was nonsense, but when you look at how PC Defence in the round and the RAF in particular has become, it’s hard not to think there’s no smoke without fire.

[Finningley Boy]

First the red Arrows scandal and now this, Wigston/Wokeston has to go. Has this chap been struck by Lightning or something?

FB

[cynicalint]

At least he will be able to say 'Happy Christmas' to CASWO in whatever manner he chooses!

[1771 DELETE]

i just hope there is not one ounce of truth in this headline. What a really sad state of affairs the RAF has become, Eternally glad to be on the outside looking in but feel for those still serving.
Senior leadership has fallen to an all time low.

[Diff Tail Shim]

I joined in 1965 and left in 1993.
1965 -132k
1993 - 81k

2016 - 33k

Interesting FOO link >>> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/628180/2017-04440.pdf

I have always subscribed to the best man/woman for the job.
You left the RAF 15 years before I did? I am 13 years out of touch now. You actually spoke to parents of kids that are in training today? I did this weekend. Her kid was loving it in training.

[WB627]

The head of RAF recruitment has resigned in protest at an "effective pause" on offering jobs to white male recruits in favour of women and ethnic minorities, defence sources have claimed.

The senior female officer apparently handed in her notice in recent days amid concerns that any such restrictions on hiring, however temporary and limited, could undermine the fighting strength of the Royal Air Force (RAF), the sources said.

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-pauses-job-offers-for-white-men-to-meet-impossible-diversity-targets-12674409

[NutLoose]

From the sky link

Hundreds of junior pilots are either waiting for slots on courses to open up or taking refresher courses even though Ben Wallace, the defence secretary, gave Air Chief Marshal Wigston the task of fixing flying training as his "only priority" more than two and a half years ago.


He needs to fall on his sword, however, he has probably had any sharpes blunted to prevent any industrial accidents.

​​​​​​…

[Diff Tail Shim]

From the sky link

Hundreds of junior pilots are either waiting for slots on courses to open up or taking refresher courses even though Ben Wallace, the defence secretary, gave Air Chief Marshal Wigston the task of fixing flying training as his "only priority" more than two and a half years ago.



He needs to fall on his sword, however, he has probably had any. sharpes blunted to prevent 8ndustrial acciden
You been on the gin?

[Timelord]

Whatever nonsense is going on in the upper echelons, my heart goes out to all ranks in the front line who are desperately trying to get the job done DESPITE their leaders. BZ to all of them.

[Fortissimo]

If there has been direction to stop selecting white males in order to reach diversity targets it is discriminatory (positive discrimination) and therefore illegal. You cannot lawfully order someone to break the law.

However, it is lawful to prefer one candidate over another on diversity grounds if they otherwise of equal merit. That is called positive action.

[air pig]

If there has been direction to stop selecting white males in order to reach diversity targets it is discriminatory (positive discrimination) and therefore illegal. You cannot lawfully order someone to break the law.

However, it is lawful to prefer one candidate over another on diversity grounds if they otherwise of equal merit. That is called positive action.

That is correct but how that position is achieved is discriminatory therefore officers taking part are breaking QRs by undertaking an illegal order and civil law as well, as the RAF is subject to civil legislation.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Just did a bit of Googling and a previous incumbent of the Gp Capt Recruiting & Selection post who started presenting on all this BAME recruiting target stuff - with rainbow ensemble photos - went on promotion to be Head of DIO Accommodation (!) and is now MOD HQ Head of Strategic Communications with a staff having to come up with all the damage control lines on Twitter. How ironic.

Lots of responses to MOD in this thread::

Ministry of Defence Press Office on Twitter: "(1/6) Operational effectiveness is of paramount importance and no one is lowering the standards to join the Royal Air Force. The RAF recruits for many professions and like the rest of the Armed Forces is determined to be a force that reflects the society it serves to protect." / Twitter

[Low average]

Hang on, I don't want to be protected by a force that reflects society! That's irrelevant to me! I want to be protected by the best that society has to offer.

[NutLoose]

[QUOTE=NutLoose;11279717]From the sky link


You been on the gin?

actually not far short of the truth lol..


I bet both Russia and Ukraine are not being so PC at the moment..

[woptb]

The Commonwealth war cemeteries of Northern Europe and beyond are filled with our glorious war dead.
The vast majority white and most definitely male.
The RAF had better explain that one to them.

Over 100,000 black African and Indian troops died fighting in WW2.

[no_one]

All the gentlemen declaring themselves to be ladies would also crack it.

On every form that asks I tick "prefer not to say".

[Fortissimo]

Hang on, I don't want to be protected by a force that reflects society! That's irrelevant to me! I want to be protected by the best that society has to offer.

The point is that you are being protected by the best society has to offer.

If you can at the same time achieve a force mix that reflects society, is that not a good thing? All the academic evidence indicates that diversity improves team performance, so the system should be aiming to attract and select the best individual talent to make up a diverse force.

[RAFEngO74to09]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF8qtFRELX8

[Low average]

The point is that you are being protected by the best society has to offer.

If you can at the same time achieve a force mix that reflects society, is that not a good thing? All the academic evidence indicates that diversity improves team performance, so the system should be aiming to attract and select the best individual talent to make up a diverse force.
So, it sounds like you believe that our warfighter's performance could be improved by them reflecting the societal mix? Sorry, I don't buy that! If it does work out that way, then great...but the objective should be to strive for the most capable forces, with diversity being an irrelevance.

[Finningley Boy]

Over 100,000 black African and Indian troops died fighting in WW2.
For all it matters. of the number you quote, most Indian troops died fighting to defend India from a Japanese invasion in the 14th Army in Burma, they served elsewhere as well especially in the British 8th Army in the Western Desert Campaign and Italy. The total British war dead are reckoned to be, military (records are variable) 384,000 and approximately 70,000 civilians. But what is so alarming about this carry on with RAF recruitment is that ordinarily the bulk of recruitment comes from young white men, that is because the indigenous, essentially white population, make up the bulk of recruitment largely because they represent about 87% of the population, also, women for all the efforts made to encourage them to join, are much less likely to want to join up. Those of a non-indigenous background make up about 13% of the population, not 20% which I understand is the recruitment target. But which ever way you slice this up it isn't about placing round pegs in round holes, its about hammering square pegs into round holes and vice-versa, It seems that the progressives are obsessed with destroying the image and culture of HM Forces rather than making opportunities available to all, that war has been won. But the culture and image is still not what they want, indeed crave it to be. This results not from selection and privilege, which seems to be the misguided thinking and logic behind all this, but the natural result of fair recruitment and training. If I may say so.

FB

[Bob Viking]

With many of these stories that we see in the media I usually take them with a pinch of salt. I also usually give the VSOs the benefit of the doubt and accept that I do not necessarily understand the strategic levels of thinking behind such initiatives.

On this particular issue though I feel they have completely lost the plot. Just read some of the bio’s of the senior leadership team at the link above. Their D and I statements seem to be given far more thought than a grand military strategy for a major offensive. I bet the commander of British land forces for the Falklands invasion put less thought into his statement of intent than some of those VSOs have put into their statements about their views on D and I.

BV

[Ken Scott]

Looking at the lineup of the RAF’s senior commanders I note that with the exception of the two female members they are all white males. Perhaps they might like to do the decent thing and resign forthwith to make way for a more inclusive team of female & BAME officers with maybe one token white male in order to provide ‘balance’? Then they might truly reflect the intent of one of their diversity statements:

Alongside diversity sits inclusion: to be diverse we must be inclusive. Inclusive of all the things that make us diverse, inclusive of our Whole Force and inclusive when we seek and find viewpoints or behaviours we ourselves find challenging…. Join me in turning these ideas into your own personal action: ask yourself, ‘what will I do’ and embody these words.

[Youmightsaythat]

I'm so glad this is happening. I remember my Father telling me when the Luftwaffe were being chased away from bombing Plymouth he and his mates used to talk about their serious concerns that the Spitfire Squadron at the time was not ethnically diverse enough and should have been grounded while an investigation was carried out.

[biddedout]

I remember back in the 80's and 90's I had a few misogynistic and openly racist colleagues who's views and opinions strayed well beyond what would have been considered "normal" banter in that era. What worried me was that several of these people went on to become officers even though their report-writing leaders at the time would have been well aware of their attitudes. Clearly, the selection system didn't pick this up either and they would have gone on to have influence on the careers of others through the nineties and beyond. I have no idea whether the current situation is OTT but there was clearly a need for change back then.
Space shuttle commander Scott Kelly makes some interesting comments in this book about how as a former navy fighter form the all male, mainly white testosterone fuelled 80's he realised that NASA's efforts in D&I really paid off over time. You got a much better outcome in any project with a diverse team with lower testosterone levels. The "right stuff" might have worked in the early days but it would have held back progress over time.

[ACW599]

I'm so glad this is happening. I remember my Father telling me when the Luftwaffe were being chased away from bombing Plymouth he and his mates used to talk about their serious concerns that the Spitfire Squadron at the time was not ethnically diverse enough and should have been grounded while an investigation was carried out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK33sl64YNw

Armstrong & Miller appear to have been slightly clairvoyant.

[RichardJones]

Never heard so much rubbish in all my life. How the hell are we expected to win a war, if the criteria is not picking the best person for the job?! Selecting the candidates, who have not been weeded out, before the board have had a chance to asess them.
Making up quoaters to appease the PC brigade is madness. The Russia military must be weeing in their pants with amusement on receiving news of this rank stupidity.

[muppetofthenorth]

It won't be a coincidence that the formerly extremely busy pinned wannabe thread hasn't had a new post for over a year. The notion that there's no pause can't be true.

[pasta]

So, it sounds like you believe that our warfighter's performance could be improved by them reflecting the societal mix? Sorry, I don't buy that! If it does work out that way, then great...but the objective should be to strive for the most capable forces, with diversity being an irrelevance.
I'd put it the other way round. According to recent stats, 87% of the UK population are white, the remaining 13% belonging to other ethnic groups. If we assume that skin colour and ethnic heritage have no bearing on someone's ability to do the job, if you recruit the best candidates from across the population, it follows that around 13% of them will end up being non-white. So, if significantly fewer that 13% of your recruits are from those other ethnic groups, you're missing out on some great candidates and it's in your own interest to fix that.

It might be that the recruitment process favours white candidates, but hopefully that's no longer the case; however it's highly plausible that people from some backgrounds could be put off applying in the first place because they perceive that they'll be made less welcome than a white person. If you want to get the best people for the job, it's important that this doesn't happen. You mustn't bias the selection process, but I have no problem with targetted advertising and publicity, to encourage more of those 13% to apply. If cultural changes are needed to make those 13% feel as welcome as the other 87%, that should also be done; otherwise they'll leave, and you've lost some great people.

Same principle applies to LGBTQIA+ candidates, and so on. Diversity is in everyone's interest.

[Bob Viking]

You are absolutely correct. Targeted advertising and recruitment is not a bad thing. Every human from any socio-economic group of any gender/race/sexuality should understand that they are welcome to join the RAF and the wider armed forces. That is correct and fair.

Beyond that though the numbers should be irrelevant. You can’t make people join the RAF (I think the Navy used to do exactly this though as recently as 200 years ago) and you really shouldn’t turn anyone away based on any protected characteristic.

Fair treatment and equality of opportunity should be sacrosanct. For all humans who wish to join the RAF.

I’m afraid I can’t be convinced otherwise. Please notice how I have chosen my language before you try.

BV

[Wrathmonk]

<snip> You can’t make people join the RAF <snip>

BV

Reintroduce national service based on the latest annual census. That should sort out any D, E and I issues 😄

[pasta]

You are absolutely correct. Targeted advertising and recruitment is not a bad thing. Every human from any socio-economic group of any gender/race/sexuality should understand that they are welcome to join the RAF and the wider armed forces. That is correct and fair.

Beyond that though the numbers should be irrelevant. You can’t make people join the RAF (I think the Navy used to do exactly this though as recently as 200 years ago) and you really shouldn’t turn anyone away based on any protected characteristic.

Fair treatment and equality of opportunity should be sacrosanct. For all humans who wish to join the RAF.

I’m afraid I can’t be convinced otherwise. Please notice how I have chosen my language before you try.

BV
I agree totally, except that you should use the numbers as a measure of how effective your targetted recruitment/advertising is. I suppose you *might* find that a particular group is underrepresented because many of them are pacifists, in which case there's probably not much you can do, but otherwise if your cohort isn't representative of the general population it probably points to a problem somewhere; either you're missing out on applicants or people are leaving because the environment doesn't welcome them. But you fix that problem at source, not by counter-discriminating during the selection process.

[Saintsman]

If you are reflecting society, then the percentages of some groups are very small. You also have to allow for the fact that many of these small groups do not want to enlist.

Do you stop recruiting in order to fill these slots, even though they will probably never fill the slot with the desired group?

Seeking the best from whatever group they come from is surely the best policy.

[biscuit74]

ST,

I believe the vast majority of the serving RAF would agree with that. Unfortunately a vocal minority think otherwise.

I think the vast majority of the folk of this country would agree that we need the best possible people in our armed services.

[NutLoose]

With many of these stories that we see in the media I usually take them with a pinch of salt. I also usually give the VSOs the benefit of the doubt and accept that I do not necessarily understand the strategic levels of thinking behind such initiatives.

On this particular issue though I feel they have completely lost the plot. Just read some of the bio’s of the senior leadership team at the link above. Their D and I statements seem to be given far more thought than a grand military strategy for a major offensive. I bet the commander of British land forces for the Falklands invasion put less thought into his statement of intent than some of those VSOs have put into their statements about their views on D and I.

BV


Here is one I couldn't fathom Bob, What the heck has dentistry to do with the RAES or am I missing something?

Chief of Staff Personnel and Air Secretary | Royal Air Force (mod.uk) (https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/senior-commanders/chief-of-staff-personnel-and-air-secretary/)
She joined the Royal Air Force in 1991, following graduation from Kings College London with a Bachelor in Dental Surgery and for the first half of her career looked after her patients in dental centres and military hospitals across the globe. She was appointed Queen’s Honorary Dental Surgeon in December 2016.


Air Vice-Marshal Byford is the RAF’s Deputy Diversity and Inclusion Champion and is passionate about fair, transparent and inclusive treatment of the Whole Force. She is very proud to be Honorary President for Staffordshire Wing RAF Air Cadets, andAir Vice-Marshal Byford is the RAF’s Deputy Diversity and Inclusion Champion and is passionate about fair, transparent and inclusive treatment of the Whole Force. She is very proud to be Honorary President for Staffordshire Wing RAF Air Cadets, and in January 2020 she received the President’s invitation to become a Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society.

As the world’s only professional body dedicated to the aerospace community, we exist to further the advancement of aeronautical art, science and engineering around the world.
Established in 1866, the Society has been at the forefront of developments in aerospace, seeking to promote the highest professional standards and provide a central forum for sharing knowledge.
The RAeS is a licensed body of the Engineering Council.

Home - Royal Aeronautical Society (aerosociety.com) (https://www.aerosociety.com/)

[NutLoose]

If they didn't make such a big play about the percentages of ethnic minorities , women, religions etc in the Forces no one would be any the wiser and everyone would get on a lot better, instead of trying to reach the impossible and failing to even meet the required numbers..

I suppose you could apply to join as a member of the Jedi religion and as they haven't i presume got someone of the Jedi religion they would be required to look at you as a prospective applicant to satisfy their diversity requirements, no matter how little skills you had with a light sabre. ;)

[Dan Winterland]

How did it come to this? I think Putin, Xi and Kim are laughing at how successful their campaign to weaken the West has been.

[Dan Winterland]

It goes without saying that if you positively discriminate in your recruitment in favour of one group, you are negatively discriminating against another by denying them a fair opportunity. That is illegal. Selection by merit is the only legal way of recruiting.

[morton]

O/C SHQ “We have been sent a directive from on high to check that we have enough SNCO Buffoons. Do we meet the Quota?”

ADJ “We are one short but Corporal Morton meets the Qualifications. Shall we promote him?”

O/C SHQ “Yes, that’ll do it.”

ADJ “What will be the authorising reference for his promotion sir?”

O/C SHQ “Hmm, we obviously cannot use Buffoon. I think Qolqot would be a good solution.”

ADJ “Qolqot Sir?”

O/C SHQ “Yes, Qolqot. Short for Qualified or Quota. We can use it again for all the sex / age / colour / disability quotas they throw at us in the future. And nobody will have any idea what it means

ADJ “Very good, Sir.”

[Easy Street]

One factor which I know has been raised as an issue internally, and which has been resolutely ignored, is that members of some ethnic groups are much less likely than others to volunteer for military service. Not because the services are unwelcoming or discriminatory, but because of cultural preferences or entrenched political views. Examples would be the British Indian and Chinese communities, in which educational attainment levels are far higher than the national average and in which military service is viewed as a low status career, and the British Muslim community, which understandably sees campaigns of the past 20 years in a slightly different light to others.

These are generalisations, to be sure, but then it is a generalisation to read across the proportions of ethnic groups from the wider population and set them as recruitment targets without any kind of deeper analysis.

Moreover, there is precisely nothing that the forces can or should do to address these matters. It is not the forces' job to shape the political and cultural views of UK citizens. Any more than, say, it would be the job of the Israeli armed forces to persuade orthodox Jews to serve (which they famously don't, despite their electoral clout driving much of Israeli government policy). Any such initiative should be for elected politicians to lead as part of wider societal reform, encompassing policies across a range of government departments. It should certainly not be driven by a small band of military officers and civil servants, cheered on by interested NGOs and Twitter followers.

Using the military to shape the views and preferences of domestic society is something rightly associated with fascism and dictatorship. Not for me, thank you.

[Fortissimo]

People will always argue against change - some of us are old enough to remember when women were first allowed to become pilots in the RAF and the complete misogynistic hoop that was spouted in response. None of the early candidates, and none of the many since, were treated differently from their male counterparts when it came to aptitude, medical standards and OQ assessments. The same standards applied to all, regardless of their biology. I don't believe anyone is advocating or accepting a reduction in standards just to meet diversity goals.

There is plenty of evidence for diverse teams performing to a higher standard than homogenous ones. At the individual level, talents do not recognise ethnic or biological boundaries so by putting artificial restrictions in means you limit your pool of talent. Recruiting and selection starts with attraction - ie you have to want to join the organisation or do the job in the first place. If the organisation does not give some nod towards reflecting society, someone looking at becoming a member of it may well think twice or not even bother to apply.

For some groups, as Easy Street points out, the family 'gatekeepers' also have a role to play. I have a friend from UAS days who had secured a slot as a pilot. He was of Indian heritage and, whilst his mother was comfortable with the idea of him joining the RAF, his father was not - he did not see it as a proper career for his son, saying that there weren't 'people like him' in the Service. My friend eventually decided to honour his father's wishes, went off to become a chemist instead, and has regretted it every day since.

It is true that 86% of the UK population is white (2011 census), though it may have come down a point or two since then. Of that 86%, half are female. If your initial expressions of interest from potential recruits do not comprise 43% white females, then there is a question to be asked about public perceptions of the Service (which is why you see 'rainbow' photographs). If you are from a so-called under-represented group, there needs to be some confidence that you will not be discriminated against, or you are likely to look elsewhere.

And to repeat, discriminating against someone on grounds of ethnic origin, sex or other protected characteristics as part of your recruitment process is illegal. Preferring to select someone on those grounds to improve diversity is legal only if the candidates are equal in all other respects.

Moreover, there is precisely nothing that the forces can or should do to address these matters. It is not the forces' job to shape the political and cultural views of UK citizens. I agree with the second part of this statement but not the first. There are things that can and should be done, but that needs to be limited to demonstrating that military careers are worthwhile and that the organisational culture is inclusive.

[Baldeep Inminj]

If they didn't make such a big play about the percentages of ethnic minorities , women, religions etc in the Forces no one would be any the wiser and everyone would get on a lot better, instead of trying to reach the impossible and failing to even meet the required numbers..

I suppose you could apply to join as a member of the Jedi religion and as they haven't i presume got someone of the Jedi religion they would be required to look at you as a prospective applicant to satisfy their diversity requirements, no matter how little skills you had with a light sabre. ;)

In 2010 I informed the RAF that I was converting to Jedi’ism (really) and applied for new dog tags with ‘Jedi’ on then. I was refused by HQ personnel on the basis that ‘Jedi’ism is a belief system and not a religion’. I fail to see the difference myself.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Calm down all. Apparently this all perfectly legal, this is not positive discrimination, this is positive action (or at least that’s what a Gp Capt briefed us about 15 months ago). The first is illegal, the second is legal. It’s how the RAF met it’s diversity recruiting targets within the first few months of last year’s recruiting year.

[t7a]

What on earth has happened to the Service that I was so proud to be a member of for 30 years?

[SASless]

From the News it sounds like the RAF Head of Recruiting (if I understood that correctly) has protested am alleged RAF policy of stopping the recruitment of White Males in an effort to boost Minority recruitment......did I get that right?

If that is correct....I understand why that individual might have some legitimate concerns about the new policy directive.

If the RAF is having an overall shortfall of recruits....and is failing to meet dictated quotas of minorities....exactly how does stopping the recruitment of White Males help the situation beyond boosting the percentage of Minorities over Non-Minorities (White Males)?

The RAF remains understaffed but the Minorities percentages look better while the White Male Category remains static.

Am I in the Twilight Zone or just not understanding what I have read?

Surely I have misread something as no one could be in charge of a military service and come up with such a scheme as that.

If this was the US Army we were talking about....I could believe it but the RAF?

[BEagle]

During my time as a UAS instructor, one of my secondary duties was to arrange attendance at Freshers' Fairs to recruit new members. This went quite well when existing students volunteered to help out, as potential recruits were more likely to chat with them than with 'RAF suits'.

When the pile of application forms came back for initial sifting, I found that a number of applications from people-formerly-known-as-females had been put aside by the Adjutant. "Why is this?", I asked him. "We've got our 10% quota", he replied. I told him that there was no such thing as everyone was equally entitled to be reviewed. At least 2 of those who'd been put aside were ultimately successful - and a third would have been except that, try as we might, we couldn't locate her. We later received rather an aggrieved letter from her parents, to which I apologised and said that we'd be very happy to see her for the next year's intake. She duly turned up, did very well at interview but unfortunately failed medical assessment.

Quotas are an abomination!

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/raf_luton/status/1559897208853594112?s=21&t=uDMTNYyStTsf9Am1__e5NA


yes, it’s a satire site…

[dctyke]

We could open a recruiting office on Dover beach. Lots of fit non-white young men.

[RichardJones]

We could open a recruiting office on Dover beach. Lots of fit non-white young men.

Oh you mean cannon fodder.

[NutLoose]

SASLess

The RAF remains understaffed but the Minorities percentages look better while the White Male Category remains static.

Actually no, the "White Male Category" will decline due to natural wastage, retirements, etc..

[DirtyProp]

. I suppose you *might* find that a particular group is underrepresented because many of them are pacifists, in which case there's probably not much you can do, but otherwise if your cohort isn't representative of the general population it probably points to a problem somewhere; either you're missing out on applicants or people are leaving because the environment doesn't welcome them. But you fix that problem at source, not by counter-discriminating during the selection process.

Introducing ethnicity/skin color/etc as a factor during selection is indeed discriminating.
The selection process should be on merit alone, everything else is irrelevant.

[pilotmike]

Here is one I couldn't fathom Bob, What the heck has dentistry to do with the RAES or am I missing something?
Cosmetic whitening?

[CAEBr]

Originally Posted by NutLoose
Here is one I couldn't fathom Bob, What the heck has dentistry to do with the RAES or am I missing something?

The RAeS is indeed licensed through the Engineering Council to award CEng status to suitably qualified Engineers. However, as the society is open for membership to anyone in any branch of the Aerospace industry, then a senior officer in the RAF is quite able to join at an appropriate grade, such as MRAeS, and use those letters. He or she however would not, without Engineering qualifications, be able to apply for CEng accreditation. Dentist, Blanket Stacker, Doctor can all be a non Engineering member.

[langleybaston]

I read all the above with dismay. The leadership of the RAF has made yet another clumsy, maladroit policy decision leading to bad publicity at a time when the aviators [did I get that right?] are doing a superb job with crap resources in very uncertain times.

Just what was not needed. Bums in the back garden, Broken Arrows, a history of lies about accident culpabilities, and now this.

I only served as a civvy add-on, but I did so as one who loved the RAF, its ethos and efficiency, its humour and its comradeship.

For God's sake get a grip.

[Airbanda]

is there any independent evidence for the 'events' reported in media and repeated as gospel in the OP?

[OR72a]

I spent 36 years in the RAF and I don’t recall ever being given the option to resign over a contentious decision or a toxic culture. Am I missing something. And please don’t get me started on non executive directors. What is going on?

[Mortmeister]

What on earth has happened to the Service that I was so proud to be a member of for 30 years?

Simple really. Someone appointed a goon to run it!

[Fortissimo]

There is a difference between being expected to comply with a contentious decision and being expected to follow an order that you know is unlawful. Officers have always been permitted to resign their commission provided there is no required return of service, it's just the timescale that varies. If the Service wants shot of you in days, PVR or otherwise, it can do it.

"What is going on?" can probably be laid at the door of people behaving as they think their seniors are expecting them to behave, which is where culture comes into play for better or for worse.

[tonker]

Just like the police, these mainly university educated, predominantly female managers are given jobs and responsibilities way above their capabilities.

[alfred_the_great]

Just like the police, these mainly university educated, predominantly female managers are given jobs and responsibilities way above their capabilities.

good thing CAS is a bloke then.

[BEagle]

From the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62582156
RAF diversity: Senior female recruitment officer resigns over targets

[Top West 50]

What a lamentable shambles. Surely Sir Wokeston should consider his position?

[adminblunty]

I haven't been on here in ages, but having left the RAF after 22 years in 2008 and carved a successful career in HR at senior level I couldn't resist. IF this is true

"EXCLUSIVE: The RAF has effectively paused making job offers to white male recruits in favour of women & ethnic minorities to meet "impossible" diversity targets, sources claim. The head of
@RoyalAirForce (https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce) recruitment has resigned in protest, they said."

Then potentially the RAF has fallen foul of equality legislation, lots of detail on that here https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/85046/positive-action-recruitment.pdf but the pithy page 5 covers what the RAF can and can't do.

Professionally, I'd argue employers are struggling to recruit across multiple sectors at the moment and thus you have to take the best person for the job or carry the vacancy and try to recruit again, but selecting someone based on quota or target and nothing else is plainly wrong and illegal. if there is nothing between 2 applicants for one job I always take the one who brings something else. If the RAF has picked applicants solely because of their ethnicity, gender etc then it's a very costly mistake and I imagine a lot of lawyers will be richer soon.

Re the earlier non-executive director point, I think it's a good idea, the RAF needs them to address too many traditions and old fashioned thinking. I say that as someone who saw women in the RAF paid less than men, people good at their job interrogated by military policy for being gay/lesbian and then discharged, women not being able to fly, women forcibly discharged when they fell pregnant and I heard far too much racist and sexist crap in 22 yrs, if NEDS challenge that sort of BS, then it's money well spent. Recruit and promote on merit and if you've one job or promotion to give and you can't pick between the people, pick the person who challenges convention and will make the RAF a better and more effective place.

Adminblunty

[Lima Juliet]

In a statement, the RAF insisted recruitment had not been paused, but it said it was doing everything it could to increase recruitment of under-represented groups.

This is a blatant lie. There is no recruitment for Pilots, WSOs nor WSOps right now. Is this like Comical Ali and his “there are no tanks in Baghdad” moment? :ugh:

Here is a screen shot from the RAF Recruiting Website right this very moment…

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/a125f8c2_ba2d_44fc_aab9_2d4df4efc58d_2f637db95e3c03f5635a3ae 63944d2885d34c150.jpeg

[Richard W]

We could open a recruiting office on Dover beach. Lots of fit non-white young men.
Go for those guilty of steering their dinghies.

[Doobry Firkin]

Isn't Pilot closed for recruitment because we've got a load of them all holding waiting on a training slot opening up with rumours of some of them possibly asked to leave to ease the burden.

No point in more recruiting when we can't train those already in the system.

And there's a slight difference in not recruiting for certain roles (as the system can't cope with what we already have) and not recruiting a certain demographic of the population (the majority).

I also haven't seen anything anywhere to explain why they want to recruit 20% from minorities when they make up 13% of the population, apart from put some numbers on posters to look good.
If you want to join and meet the standards it shouldn't matter what your background is.....

[OR72a]

Has she resigned from her current job or resigned her commission? It is not clear.

[Roland Pulfrew]

What a lamentable shambles. Surely Sir Wokeston should consider his position?

He should, but he won’t. This IS HIS agenda.

[biddedout]

[QUOTE=adminblunty;11280275]I haven't been on here in ages, but having left the RAF after 22 years in 2008

You should post more often Adminblunty. A very sensible thoughtful comment and a pleasant change from all the angry DM style woke obsessed rants.

[blimey]

Recruit and promote on merit and if you've one job or promotion to give and you can't pick between the people, pick the person who challenges convention and will make the RAF a better and more effective place.
There's more to fulfilling a role in the armed forces than being a bit left field.

[ICM]

BBC2 Newsnight has just run an item on this. I doubt I heard anything said that hasn't already been said here.

[iRaven]

Just watched BBC Newsnight talking about this and their RAF veteran “expert” was none other than Sophy Gardner (now with a different name of Anthrobus) who got a political flaming back in 2015 on this very forum: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/551757-ex-gr-nav-wg-cdr-retd-paul-smyth-run-parliament.html

The BBC had a picture of a F15 for their main backdrop, too. Showing the usual (poor) quality of their research. They had Sophy making out she was Aircrew having ‘been chopped and become an Air Ops Officer (Flight Ops in her day). She also really had very little of value to add and it was clear she knew nothing about the current furore!

The saddest thing is that motor-mouth Tim Davies of Fast Jet Performance was originally asked and then blanked by the woke BBC, who instead took Ms Gardner instead. The irony was not lost in the following exchange on Facebook from Tim:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1116x1334/047da191_9cf4_4ca0_bc6b_c41cbef5c814_c7511e49814382322264813 d7a1f9c92eb1893aa.jpeg

Pretty much demonstrating why someone more sharp witted and also better equipped to challenge the MOD and the BBC at their own game was needed, rather than the demonstrably lacklustre guest that they actually used. :ugh:

Classic irony, Tim :ok:

[Baldeep Inminj]

Knew Sophy back in the day. Lovely person, nice lady and just a wonderful individual.

However, she never unfortunately never made aircrew and therefore has no experienced opinion about the current situation.

She may believe she knows what is happening, but she does not.

[NutLoose]

https://www.wombat-womenincombat.com/blog/2018/7/3/former-wing-commander-sophy-gardner

She'd joined the RAF with the firm intention of becoming a pilot. After completing her officer's training course at RAF Cramwell, she moved on to learning basic combat and manoeuvre flying, selected for the fast jet training on a Hawk. “Unfortunately I failed the very last hurdle: the tactical weapon phase.” Although she could have converted to another aircraft, a personal tragedy decided otherwise and she stopped piloting. “You know, once you've flown a Hawk at 500mph, flying a civilian aircraft at 100mph is not very exciting,” she tells me during our Skype exchange. Because she had plenty of time on her hands whilst awaiting other training courses, she returned to Cambridge to do a MPhil in European Studies where she investigated how air power is used in peace-keeping operations.

if she found flying a civi aircraft afterwards not very exciting, her desk must have been something else.

[BEagle]

In her 20 years in the RAF Sophy became the first woman to hold every job she had, from running flight operations on an aircraft carrier, to head of the RAF's transport and refuelling operations squadron, to her final job as head of the operations wing at RAF Valley on the island of Anglesey in Wales.

Really? I wish the lady well, but perhaps the meeja has over-egged her career history?

[AAGpilot]

Wow. If you’re a white male, why would you even want to serve in the RAF after such a blatant insult?

[Bob Viking]

The answer to your question is that those white males still need to pay the bills. For many/most people now it is just a job. Not a way of life. Resigning on principle is all very well if you have somewhere else to go and another way to pay the bills. Once those white males find a better offer though, the RAF is in trouble.

I cannot think of a clearer way to indicate how extreme this can end up than to use a similar example from some of my new colleagues from the South African Air Force. Just ask yourself why so many of the white South African QFIs end up working in the Middle East. The truth lies within.

BV

[thegirlformazzy]

In 2010 I informed the RAF that I was converting to Jedi’ism (really) and applied for new dog tags with ‘Jedi’ on then. I was refused by HQ personnel on the basis that ‘Jedi’ism is a belief system and not a religion’. I fail to see the difference myself.
I have Jedi on my dog tags, they did not even question the request. The padre even included Jedi in her serviced oveeseas for me.

[Wensleydale]

Things have certainly changed a bit over the years........

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/601x800/poster_2804718ca1f43ba616729ee65be772df232a8df2.jpg

[Toadstool]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/raf-diversity-targets-recruiting-chief-tkjsfcch6

The Chief Of Staff Personnel and Air Secretary AVM Byford said she is “unashamed” of a policy that could mean women and ethnic minorities in effect being prioritised for roles over white men.

Air Vice-Marshal Maria Byford, one of the most senior ranking women in the military, said she had “slowed” down the recruitment process for all candidates after figures showed the air force was not hitting diversity targets.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

I have Jedi on my dog tags, they did not even question the request. The padre even included Jedi in her serviced oveeseas for me.

I’m afraid the term ‘JEDI’ is now lost to us as well. The ‘J’ apparently stands for ‘justice’, and you won’t have any trouble guessing what E, D, and I stand for.

[teeteringhead]

Hang on, I don't want to be protected by a force that reflects society! That's irrelevant to me! I want to be protected by the best that society has to offer. Reminds me of a conversation I had with my USAF opposite number some years ago in the Gulf (or SWA as he insisted on calling it).

He was then proudly stating that the USAF's aim then (2002) was for a "force that reflected their society"

Teeters: Then why doesn't that apply to your Olympic track and field team?

USAF chap: Well, that's different, we've got to have the best........

Teeters: ????????

Examples would be the British Indian and Chinese communities, in which educational attainment levels are far higher than the national average and in which military service is viewed as a low status career, and that reminded me of a conversation I had some years ago with a young, very bright female Air Cadet of Indian heritage.

YVBFAC: I really wanted to join the RAF to fly, but the family told me (sic) that I was going to be a doctor.

Moi: And?

YVBFAC: (With cheeky grin) I persuaded them that once I'd qualified (as a doctor) I could become a RAF Medical Officer - and maybe then still fly!!

I hope she succeeded.

[Bob Viking]

On so many levels, what astoundingly horrific leadership. She will probably alienate and aggravate multiple generations of current and future personnel, of all genders and ethnicities, with that statement.

Thank God she’s on our side (sarcasm).

BV

[Just This Once...]

On so many levels, what astoundingly horrific leadership. She will probably alienate and aggravate multiple generations of current and future personnel, of all genders and ethnicities, with that statement.


The best way to appreciate air power, war fighting, guile and leadership is by sitting someone down, who is a practitioner in these skills, in a big chair before prodding their gums and announcing a hygiene score. Only a true dentist has the knowledge gained in this way to actively reshape the recruitment and retention of our current and future aviators & warfare specialists, no matter the concerns of the ladies and gentlemen who serve beneath her.

Occlusal and incisal are the new teeth of the RAF. Bicuspids welcome.


🦷

[AAGpilot]

The answer to your question is that those white males still need to pay the bills. For many/most people now it is just a job. Not a way of life. Resigning on principle is all very well if you have somewhere else to go and another way to pay the bills. Once those white males find a better offer though, the RAF is in trouble.

I cannot think of a clearer way to indicate how extreme this can end up than to use a similar example from some of my new colleagues from the South African Air Force. Just ask yourself why so many of the white South African QFIs end up working in the Middle East. The truth lies within.

BV

I definitely understand that people have bills to pay. I was more so referring to future recruits.

[Baldeep Inminj]

I suspect this post may be slightly controversial, but here goes :ok:

IMHO there are certain roles in the RAF that actually matter, and others that matter far 'less'. Aircrew matter. Air Trafficer's matter...amongst others of course. Get your job wrong and there are immediate and possibly fatal consequences.

Admin staff? Stackers?...In my experience they were usually obstructive and incompetent anyway so who really cares if we are not picking people for such roles based on ability?

If the RAF simply must increase diversity, then I still don't see that it needs to be across the board - as in 'every single trade'. Why not continue to select the most talented, even if they are white males, for the jobs that really matter, and then meet the ridiculous diversity targets by recruiting the 'targeted groups' into areas where they can do little damage if they are not up to the job? I mean, lets face it, when I went to stores to get something I needed, I fully expected to be told that they either didn't have it, didn't have my size, or did not accept that I needed it. When I asked PSF to do something, I fully expected it to be late (if done at all) and incorrect. I survived! Why not recruit to meet diversity targets into areas such as these (and I am NOT suggesting that 'diverse' people are less competent, just that if diversity is to become the main recruitment criteria, then it follows that ability may drop).

This way, the war fighters stay competent and able to survive the ultimate Darwinian environment that is combat, and the people from whom I never expected or received much in the way of service anyway can help the RAF stay WOKE, Rainbow coloured and all nice and fluffy.

Just my thoughts...

[SimonPaddo]

I suspect this post may be slightly controversial, but here goes :ok:

IMHO there are certain roles in the RAF that actually matter, and others that matter far 'less'. Aircrew matter. Air Trafficer's matter...amongst others of course. Get your job wrong and there are immediate and possibly fatal consequences.

Admin staff? Stackers?...In my experience they were usually obstructive and incompetent anyway so who really cares if we are not picking people for such roles based on ability?

If the RAF simply must increase diversity, then I still don't see that it needs to be across the board - as in 'every single trade'. Why not continue to select the most talented, even if they are white males, for the jobs that really matter, and then meet the ridiculous diversity targets by recruiting the 'targeted groups' into areas where they can do little damage if they are not up to the job? I mean, lets face it, when I went to stores to get something I needed, I fully expected to be told that they either didn't have it, didn't have my size, or did not accept that I needed it. When I asked PSF to do something, I fully expected it to be late (if done at all) and incorrect. I survived! Why not recruit to meet diversity targets into areas such as these (and I am NOT suggesting that 'diverse' people are less competent, just that if diversity is to become the main recruitment criteria, then it follows that ability may drop).

This way, the war fighters stay competent and able to survive the ultimate Darwinian environment that is combat, and the people from whom I never expected or received much in the way of service anyway can help the RAF stay WOKE, Rainbow coloured and all nice and fluffy.

Just my thoughts...

Is it just me? How do you keep that username?

[Bob Viking]

Sometimes the uncomfortable things need to be said! However, that is why we are in this mess and discussing this topic in the first place. Because nobody is willing to say what needs to be said.

Dare I say it, but promoting a dentist to the upper echelons of our service may, in retrospect, prove to be an error!

BV

[NutLoose]

I suspect this post may be slightly controversial, but here goes :ok:

IMHO there are certain roles in the RAF that actually matter, and others that matter far 'less'. Aircrew matter. Air Trafficer's matter...amongst others of course. Get your job wrong and there are immediate and possibly fatal consequences.

Just my thoughts...

Actually the first on your list should have been Engineers, because without them your pilot is a pedestrian in naff sunglasses and your ATC will be growing tomato's in their greenhouse.

Just saying.....

[RAFEngO74to09]

(4) David Turner QC on Twitter: "@gregbagwell @timdavies_uk @pinstripedline The scope for positive action in recruitment is very tightly controlled, as this guidance 👇 from @EHRC makes clear. NB, @RoyalAirForce could not invoke "positive action" so as effectively to create a policy to prefer female or ethnic minority applicants 1/ https://t.co/NLGt3cmDHD" / Twitter

(4) David Turner QC on Twitter: "@gregbagwell @timdavies_uk @pinstripedline @EHRC @RoyalAirForce Because positive action could only be invoked on a case by case basis, it is difficult to see how it could be a panacea for any failure to meet diversity recruitment targets: if it was so used then clearly there would be a(n impermissible) policy 2/ https://t.co/g2nqrTysVV" / Twitter

(4) David Turner QC on Twitter: "@gregbagwell @timdavies_uk @pinstripedline @EHRC @RoyalAirForce @haynesdeborah Of course, all of this assumes that @RoyalAirForce is hitting its recruitment targets. If it is not, there would be no scope at all for positive action with respect to recruitment even if it is not meeting its diversity targets. 3/3" / Twitter

[minigundiplomat]

Actually the first on your list should have been Engineers, because without them your pilot is a pedestrian in naff sunglasses and your ATC will be growing tomato's in their greenhouse.

Just saying.....

Sometimes those come to pass because of the Engineers...........

[RAFEngO74to09]

Not a meme - an actual commendation!

(4) Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "Head of @RoyalAirForce recruitment resigns over “effective pause” on hiring white men RAF says there’s no pause Now a top officer confirms she did ask recruitment team to pause filling training courses after data showed RAF are missing diversity targets https://t.co/zcZiDK3c3R" / Twitter

[Baldeep Inminj]

Actually the first on your list should have been Engineers, because without them your pilot is a pedestrian in naff sunglasses and your ATC will be growing tomato's in their greenhouse.

Just saying.....

Yep, correct and agree 100%. I meant no disrespect to the sooties, riggers, fairys, heavies etc. They gave me serviceable aircraft for 27 years, and kept great humour as I spent much of that time trying to break them :rolleyes:. That said, on the last 4 squadrons on which I served, all of the engineers were civilian contractors. There was an OCEng on the station, but he had no real involvement in the engineering of our aircraft - he was more of a contract manager.

[Timelord]

I rather think the onset of this problem was the policy of “open” promotion to the higher ranks for all branches. That’s how you end up with a dentist deciding recruitment policy. I am afraid that it is only the aircrew who have experienced the delivery of air power that understand all the factors and people that contribute. Sir Mike said at the time that it wasn’t right that he should be Chief based on aptitude tests taken 30 years previously. No sir, you are Chief because you have 30 years experience of delivering air power at all levels. When did the flying branch loose the confidence to say “ Sorry, but we understand it all better than you”.

[olster]

Baldeep you do have a spectacularly and hilarious user name as has been mentioned also a nice list of 1970s soubriquets for various job titles. Quite obviously I think you should now be re-enlisted into the RAF and redefine the recruitment policy. This should include aptitude for flying, which I thought was the primary task of the Air Force and similarly aptitude for the various other supportive roles within the force. Ability to fit in the role is primary and non negotiable, Diversity targets are beyond bonkers and plays into adversaries (eg Putin) and their possibly understandable view of the West, particularly the U.K. and USA as on a one way trip to a decadent hell in a handcart. Keep up the political incorrectness, very amusing.

[Hueymeister]

She should absolutely be ashamed of herself. Her views are discriminatory. Byford, get back to dentistry..personnel mgt seems not to be your strong suit..

[olster]

Slightly off on a tangent but resonating with the woke agenda that is indicative of the craziness that is affecting us all. Scotland, that cooler (meteorologically speaking) version of North Korea has just appointed in Dundee a I kid you not, male Period Dignity Officer. On 35k / year courtesy of our long suffering tax payers, the appointee will harangue the populace on dealing with menstruation and associated issues. Not just women of course but men as well. Is there some kind of race on to create the most bizarre, nonsensical and utterly stupid beyond belief woke inspired Alice in Wonderland society or in my old fogeyism am I missing something? Ok tangential to the thread but coming from the same strata of stupidity as diversity targets.

[Baldeep Inminj]

https://i.redd.it/nqgqxtvkw1y61.jpg

[Wyntor]

I do wonder who is advising these VSOs on public communications. While it is slightly hilarious watching Baggers dancing on the head of a pin trying to defend this hogwash, the fact that it is going on via twitter is just bonkers and making all concerned look ridiculous. I lose track of who is big mates with whom from way back, but this circling of the wagons around an absurd position is not putting any of them in a good light. After all the denials and spin from the PR types, one can only assume that AVM Byford has had to make her statement today because there is some document, or email, that would have eventually come to light and painted a different picture from the spin.

[Baldeep Inminj]

The practice of using 'unqualified' people to fill roles is one of the cornerstones of RAF structure - really.. How many contracts have been complete disasters because a 'really good pilot who needs broadening' found themselves involved in contract writing? I know so many pilots who were promoted into staff tours that they themselves admitted they were not remotely qualified to carry out successfully...that has always been the RAF way. Promotion has always been more important than competence at your job, hence the fact that the chiselers who get on the staff courses and use clever words have always been promoted above those who were just bloody good at their jobs.

I get that it looks ridiculous for a dentist to be running recruiting, but is it any more so than a pilot running the RAF...National Express is not run by a bus driver. The cause of this intense incompetence is the mistaken belief that anyone can do anything well. Not so. The RAF should silo the branches so people can rise as high as they can but always within their area of expertise, be it 'aircrew', 'medical', engineering' etc. There should be no postings of people outside of their group. Want to run recruitment but you are a dentist? Tough - you are not qualified. Want to run engineering and you are a pilot?...see you later. This will mean fewer Senior Officers of course, so all that wasted money can be spend on kinetic delivery rather that frenetic frivolity.

The RAF Current Inventory shows 479 aircraft as of today. The RAF has 105 Air Commodores in active service as of today (NOT including those in acting rank). That is 1 Air Commodore for every 4.56 aircraft. What a complete and utter joke the RAF has become - it is now a self-serving group of people, sucking up public funds to fuel it's own self-absorbed desire for more promotion and self-congratulation. I could not find the -number of active Group Captains but I am willing to bet there are probably 1 for every 2 aircraft - perhaps even 1 for 1. How the fc*k was that allowed to happen???

Who then leads the RAF if branches are silo'd into their own specialities? Simple - no one person. The heads of each silo form a team and they lead as a collective, with decisions being made together, but 'owned' by the person with the speciality in that particular area.

I work for a world leading Aerospace company and this is how we operate, and it works brilliantly.

[NutLoose]

Slightly off on a tangent but resonating with the woke agenda that is indicative of the craziness that is affecting us all. Scotland, that cooler (meteorologically speaking) version of North Korea has just appointed in Dundee a I kid you not, male Period Dignity Officer. On 35k / year courtesy of our long suffering tax payers, the appointee will harangue the populace on dealing with menstruation and associated issues. Not just women of course but men as well. Is there some kind of race on to create the most bizarre, nonsensical and utterly stupid beyond belief woke inspired Alice in Wonderland society or in my old fogeyism am I missing something? Ok tangential to the thread but coming from the same strata of stupidity as diversity targets.

i bet he’ll feel a right C**t telling people his job title, let’s hope he doesn’t make a bloody mess of it.

[Baldeep Inminj]

i bet he’ll feel a right C**t telling people his job title, let’s hope he doesn’t make a bloody mess of it.

Talk about a job with strings attached.

That said, is it actually a worse title than being the PEdO?

[RAFEngO74to09]

Former Tornado Flight Commander and Valley QFI Tim Davies was invited to appear on BBC tonight but then cancelled when they found a woman instead!

See 9:15 for leaked e-mail from Gp Capt Recruiting & Selection dated 11 Jul 22.

See also edict at 13:32 from way back in 2020: AFCOs are to remove booked Pilot, RPAS, WSO and Int candidates from CBAT (aptitude suite) events within the above dates, unless BAME and Female.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgrcAB7ma-s

[albatross]

Sad to say but in a lot of countries many folks today look at the military as just another “Civil Service” career road to a pension.

“What: Go to War?!, Risk my Life?! That wasn’t in the brochure!”

[Low average]

Wow, if that email from 13:32 is legit, how many potential recruits had their dreams destroyed by Racial/Sexual discrimination!

[RAFEngO74to09]

Wow, if that email from 13:32 is legit, how many potential recruits had their dreams destroyed by Racial/Sexual discrimination!
Exactly. I suspect it was supposed to say "BAME or Female" not "BAME and Female" - but nevertheless, if there were limited slots available in any of those branches, the guys who had their booked aptitude testing slots cancelled could have ended up losing out because the BAMEs / females were already given them - regardless whether the white males would have been better on aptitude testing / merit (for instance they may even have already got a PPL at their own expense).

[RAFEngO74to09]

Comdey videos have started

RAF not hiring white men. - YouTube

[judge11]

'hence the fact that the chiselers who get on the staff courses and use clever words have always been promoted above those who were just bloody good at their jobs'

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

The omission is that most of those who were 'just bloody good at their jobs' decided to get out leaving the over-promoted to create the utter shambles that is today's Royal Air Force and Royal Navy. I have hope and faith that the British Army will hold fast against the institutional marxism that now infests every corner of the nation.

[Hueymeister]

Comdey videos have started

RAF not hiring white men. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM5sOYH5ZLY&t=1s)

That is simply hilarious. Wiggy, do the decent thing and throw yourself under the woke bus.

[FantomZorbin]

I've been told that a review of recruitment is being led by a civil contractor that can't grasp the fact that the armed services are different to the commercial world.
I believe that this doesn't sit too comfortably across all the services.

[DaveJ75]

Absolute madness. It's bad enough out here in civvy street seeing accountants screw up operational decisions but this...

While there may journalistic tweaks in the Times article, AVM Byford seems unaware of the irony: she is “unashamed” of a policy that could mean women and ethnic minorities in effect being prioritised for roles over white men while a few lines down... So I need the best people to join...

Talk about putting the moron into oxymoron - you recruit the best from the widest applicant pool or you prioritise minorities...

Interestingly these people never seem to consider how people might feel about being selected for a role based on their 'minority' status rather than their knowledge, skills and attitude...

[MMHendrie1]

"The role of the Royal Air Force is to fly and to fight, the role of those who don't is to support those who do."

[beardy]

Perhaps the RAF could ask for advice from Ukraine on who to recruit and train, they seem to have a handle on the 'inclusivity.'

[Toadstool]

Interestingly these people never seem to consider how people might feel about being selected for a role based on their 'minority' status rather than their knowledge, skills and attitude...

Good point. We were discussing this in the crew room the other day. How would those who benefitted from positive action feel knowing that they were chosen to increase diversity rather than being chosen based on merit and performance?

Quite ironic that those who preach the most about inclusivity and diversity are the least diverse group in the RAF.

[Dan Gerous]

Sad to say but in a lot of countries many folks today look at the military as just another “Civil Service” career road to a pension.

“What: Go to War?!, Risk my Life?! That wasn’t in the brochure!”

Sad to say Albatross, but that comment was doing the rounds in 1982 when the Falklands kicked off.

[ancientaviator62]

Shortly before I retired we had an 'ethnic' survey sent round. One of the gentleman 'of colour' refused to fill it in saying it was racist. He could see where it would lead (and has done so).
His take was that he was there on merit and everyone knew that. If you bring in quotas of whatever derivation people will assume they are only there as 'quota fillers'.

[Tinman74]

Former Tornado Flight Commander and Valley QFI Tim Davies was invited to appear on BBC tonight but then cancelled when they found a woman instead!

See 9:15 for leaked e-mail from Gp Capt Recruiting & Selection dated 11 Jul 22.

See also edict at 13:32 from way back in 2020: AFCOs are to remove booked Pilot, RPAS, WSO and Int candidates from CBAT (aptitude suite) events within the above dates, unless BAME and Female.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgrcAB7ma-s

They probably googled him, saw some of his ranting YouTube videos and thought nah, give him a miss.

[Trumpet trousers]

Perhaps this woman would be better suited to leaving and joining the NHS, seeing as there is a chronic shortage of NHS Dentists? I guess teeth whitening won't be in her portfolio though..

[PeterX60]

62 years ago I was attested at RAF Cardington, next day to RAF Bridgenorth for 10 weeks basic training. One of the 24 beds in the squad hut was occupied by a member of the 'ethnic minorities' (Afro Caribbean in current ethnospeak) so around 4% of the entry - not very different from the general population. Competition to join up was significant, so I can only assume he (WRAFs were separate of course) jumped through the same hoops as the rest of us. He was treated as just another of the blokes. Over the next 9 years any casual racisim was directed at the locals where we were serving, and locally employed staff were again accepted as the same as ones in UK would have been.

Casual homophobia in conversation/'humour' yes, but when two of the pilots on the station were court martialled and dismissed for being gay, there was more sympathy with their situation then anything else.

Was I exceptionally fortunate in my trade/squadron/stations?

If the situation now requires the actions described it is IMHO a massive failure of leadership, starting at the top.

[NutLoose]

Perhaps this woman would be better suited to leaving and joining the NHS, seeing as there is a chronic shortage of NHS Dentists? I guess teeth whitening won't be in her portfolio though..

As long as they do not put her in charge of a sperm donor bank.

[NutLoose]

62 years ago I was attested at RAF Cardington, next day to RAF Bridgenorth for 10 weeks basic training. One of the 24 beds in the squad hut was occupied by a member of the 'ethnic minorities' (Afro Caribbean in current ethnospeak) so around 4% of the entry - not very different from the general population. Competition to join up was significant, so I can only assume he (WRAFs were separate of course) jumped through the same hoops as the rest of us. He was treated as just another of the blokes. Over the next 9 years any casual racisim was directed at the locals where we were serving, and locally employed staff were again accepted as the same as ones in UK would have been.

Casual homophobia in conversation/'humour' yes, but when two of the pilots on the station were court martialled and dismissed for being gay, there was more sympathy with their situation then anything else.

Was I exceptionally fortunate in my trade/squadron/stations?

If the situation now requires the actions described it is IMHO a massive failure of leadership, starting at the top.

When I joined I couldn't tell you how many "none whites" were on my courses, simply because it never came up / was an issue and we all treated each other just as the guy in the next bedspace.. There was a Portuguese / Brazillian on my trade course, but I remember him because he sadly got the chop nearly at the end of the course, he was a great bloke and we all rallied round and were really sad to see him go, plus he had an awesome sounding name that just rolled off the tongue, Zino Gonzales, I do sometimes wonder what happened to him.

[Avtur]

Dear ACM Wiggy,

I am writing to complain that the position of Chief of the Air Staff’s Warrant Officer (CASWO), now Warrant Officer of the RAF (WORAF), has only been held by a white male since its inception in 1996. This was presumably because someone believed that these people were best candidates for the job. Not only is this concept silly, but the fact that the person must be a Warrant Officer is blatantly discriminatory and exclusive.

I therefore propose that you immediately remove WO Alpert, and replace him with a non-gender specific person of dark complexion, of any rank.

Yours Sincerely,

W. Oak BDS.
AVM (Ret’d)

[Baldeep Inminj]

Dear ACM Wiggy,

I am writing to complain that the position of Chief of the Air Staff’s Warrant Officer (CASWO), now Warrant Officer of the RAF (WORAF), has only been held by a white male since its inception in 1996. This was presumably because someone believed that these people were best candidates for the job. Not only is this concept silly, but the fact that the person must be a Warrant Officer is blatantly discriminatory and exclusive.

I therefore propose that you immediately remove WO Alpert, and replace him with a non-gender specific person of dark complexion, of any rank.

Yours Sincerely,

W. Oak BDS.
AVM (Ret’d)


This is great.

I remember reading, in the early 90's, about a teenager in the USA (where else:rolleyes:) who was trying to sue her parents for having her. Her parents were less than aesthetically pleasing to behold and this young lady did unfortunately look like she had crawled out of the gene pool whilst the lifeguard wasn't looking - it was difficult to believe that out of 10 million sperm, she was the fastest. In any event, she said her life was a misery due to her looks, weight etc and that her parents should have known that any offspring they had would be less than pretty and would have an unhappy life. It made the papers partly because it was ridiculous, but also because of the dilemma it posed. Namely, if it went to court and she 'won' then the outcome she had desired would be that she would not have existed, and therefore could be alive to sue her parents in the the first place. I honestly cannot remember what happened.

I see a parallel with the misguided individual that is CAS. If he succeeds in halting recruitment of white men, and if he wants to drive up the diversity percentage, then he himself should leave as this would achieve both aims. However, if he leaves, then there will be nobody to drive the policy that made him leave...so he should not leave..

My brain hurts and wine would help....but it's early morning here in- North 'Murica, so a coffee will have to do for now.

I loved my time in the RAF, 27 years and 7200hrs of just great flying, awesome stories and lifelong friends. However, I could not in good conscience recommend the RAF of today to anyone as a career that will provide any sense of worth or pride. To those that are still in and looking over the fence, I can assure you that the grass is much greener if you are capable and skilled operator - don't believe RAF people who tell you different to try to retain you. When I left the RAF as a PA Flt Lt my take-home pay after tax was around 4400. 4 years after leaving my take-home after tax is around 4000.

But here, we are paid weekly...:cool:

[Avtur]

I loved my time in the RAF, 27 years and 7200hrs of just great flying, awesome stories and lifelong friends. However, I could not in good conscience recommend the RAF of today to anyone as a career that will provide any sense of worth or pride.

I did 27 years, flew 7,350 hrs, and totally agree with you.

[oldmansquipper]

Todays Fake News?. You may think so, I couldn’t possibly comment!

“The RAFs recruitment policy comes to the aid of the governments immigration conundrum - or is it, erm, actually vice versa?

I understand the woyal Air Farce is offering the immigrants landing at Dover jobs with the ‘rainbow arrows’ or as fast jet aviators …..as they get out of their rubber boats.

The incontrovertible logic is that while they may not have the skills, nor the aptitude, they will be able to tick some of the ethnicity boxes to comply with wokey wokestones latest RAF recruitment policy.

Plus they will already have done the requisite dinghy drills...

Head of RAF recruitment…. Air ‘Vice’ (ooh err missus!)Marshal Gladys Purchase-Nissan Has said She/he/non specific, is ‘UNASHAMED’ of the new policy as it is clearly a win win situation…..and her gender specific damehood is thus assured. “

Attached is a graph showing the numbers of ‘people’ crossing the channel in small boats recently. Note: It’s source is the totally unbiased, balanced and diverse Beeb..so it must be true!

IGMC.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1227/a9618c79_bcb8_4142_a4b0_06a0b393dd5a_7bbcd4ccc15bea0f4383532 8aaac5e0e2703ec99.jpeg

[Timelord]

"The role of the Royal Air Force is to fly and to fight, the role of those who don't is to support those who do."

Careful- You do know that a front line JO pilot was recently disciplined for stating that. A junior member of the service who did not fly and fight was offended

[Timelord]

One of the saddest aspects of this whole unfortunate saga is that the RAF can no longer claim to be a true meritocracy which was once a proud boast, along with having the world’s best training system.

[MPN11]

Careful- You do know that a front line JO pilot was recently disciplined for stating that. A junior member of the service who did not fly and fight was offended
Disciplined?? I encountered that phrase a couple of times. A simple “F off Biggles” seemed to suffice..

[Timelord]

Ah, happy days when that sort of exchange sufficed.

[ORAC]

Sir Humphrey:

https://bit.ly/3whoHxN

Duelling with Diversity - the RAF and Recruitment

[The B Word]

Where did it go wrong? :ugh:

Now I’m well past a quarter-century in the Services so I can honestly say I have seen discrimination during all of my time. Back in flying training I can remember seeing females getting literally 10, 20 and nearly 100 more hours ‘flex’ training sorties compared to their male peers to get them graduated (the males were simply chopped, like a male calf in a dairy herd). I can remember a female aircrew mate explaining that she was afraid of the dark and the instructors going into a huddle to try and work out how she could get a front line job that she could do that didn’t involve night flying (I jest, not!). Seeing many female aircrew pushed forward for ‘good deals’, or over-promoted because of their appearance, whilst their male peers were overlooked. However, that was set against a disgraceful environment where women had only just been paid the same as the men (only a couple of years earlier), that the women were instantly dismissed if they fell pregnant and that they were still expected to behave differently to their male counterparts. For the LGBTQ+ community, they had to live a secret life or face instant dismissal or even prosecution. The ethnic minorities suffered from the institutional racism of programmes like Alf Garnett and Rising Damp still resonating in the ‘80s and ‘90s. So all in all, everyone suffered a bit of discomfort and discrimination - so there was some equality! :eek:

By the turn of the Millenium, all those except white males (and sometimes especially those of an older persuasion) were subject to, quite rightly, a clamp down on the discrimination shown against them - but we forgot to ensure that the white male was also in a good place (we assumed, but never checked). So the females started to shed the last of the very poor treatment, like gaining maternity leave, and we saw the final injustice levelled when they were allowed to join the RAF Regt. For the LGTBTQ+ they were now protected by law and their chosen private lives were rightly becoming normalised and accepted, even though quite a small community in the main. Finally, the ethnic minorities were similarly normalised, racial prejudices were rightly called out and they were accepted for who they are rather than a facsimile of what their white European counterparts thought they should be. But the white, possibly middle-aged, man got no quarter and even went on to be further pilloried for being so-called “privileged” by social justice warriors (and those that backed up their chosen leaders stating such stuff) and it was almost as if they were made to suffer for the behaviours of their predecessors even if their opinions and prejudices bore little resemblance to those that went before them. In today’s language we failed to ‘create a safe space’ for the white male, making them feel less worthy than their peers with different appearances and sexual preferences.

The situation for the white, and sometimes middle-aged, man continued to worsen and we saw the final recent perversion and heinous discrimination that we appear to be witnessing right now. Where some folks in very senior positions in leadership think it’s OK to cease all applications for aptitude based roles by white males but continue to allow female and ethnic minority applications to continue (as shown in the video clip above - there is no denying that this illegal activity was enacted). That is discrimination, I’m afraid, plain and simple.

What to do, to put it right? Stop trying to compartmentalise people into groups. Treat everyone as a person and individual, without significant favour. Ensure that we are the meritocracy, regardless of appearance, that we have prided ourselves previously in being. Be sympathetic to their protected characteristics, and most of all outlaw in all working practices any notion of quotas, or ‘discrimination to try and stop discrimination’ - meritocracy matters, and with that you will naturally get the diversity that you seek (the most valuable being diversity of thought). It really is that simple. But the really hard bit now is to restore the trust that the current very senior leaders have lost with the past, current and future generation of the Service over the past few years - that will probably require those recent culprits, who embraced and directed such heinous activities as seen recently in the various videos and leaks, to fall on their swords and leave without a fuss. Like the final scene in Where Eagles Dare :E. That might give everyone left a common purpose to pull together and reconstruct the culture that appears to have been so badly damaged in the past 2-3 years.

[oldmansquipper]

Sir Humphrey:

https://bit.ly/3whoHxN

Duelling with Diversity - the RAF and Recruitment

Thank you Sir Humphrey.

To sum up, then?

Old and/or Middle aged WASPS and their opinions don’t actually matter any more.

….but then we sort of knew that, anyway.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Sir Humphrey:

https://bit.ly/3whoHxN

Duelling with Diversity - the RAF and Recruitment

I always wince when a writer uses their opening gambit to tackle the player instead of the ball: to paraphrase: 'people who object to diversity initiatives do so instinctively'. Oh, well they must all be bigots, then.

... and I stop reading when it becomes clear that known facts are being discounted and obfuscation is being used to dismiss legitimate concerns: "that they were admitted not because of their talent, but because they were female or from a minority. Such a view is nonsense – the recruitment process has not changed its standards or lowered the pass rate for people from some backgrounds – anyone applying to join will still need to meet the same absolute standard as before". Well, no one is talking about "the standards" you clot, and leaked emails show that selection based on biological sex and ethnicity is exactly what has happened. It is indubitably not "nonsense".

[olster]

B word, some interesting observations and predominantly difficult to disagree in general as you say it from your perspective. The only
point that I would make and I believe that it is important that it is made is that Alf Garnett and Rising Damp were TV comedies that were essentially made as satires to highlight the utter stupidity of racism as prevalent in the 60/70:era. They were absolutely not written / performed in any other manner than to highlight the worse aspects of U.K. society in that time now obviously very different. Indeed Johnny Speight who wrote the Alf Garrett series was a writer very much of the Left as were the cast including Warren Mitchell as the infamous Alf and Tony Booth who played the son in law, himself the father in the real world of Cherie Booth, wife of the then future PM as Peter Hitchens would say, the Blair creature. I think it is important to make the point on this, Cheers.

[Baldeep Inminj]

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-took-steps-to-artificially-inflate-diversity-numbers-to-hit-target-defence-sources-suggest-12676867RAF took steps to 'artificially inflate' diversity numbers to hit target, defence sources suggestblob:https://www.pprune.org/8e885f0b-6c50-497a-8e4b-8fb032feed2e

[NutLoose]

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-took-steps-to-artificially-inflate-diversity-numbers-to-hit-target-defence-sources-suggest-12676867RAF took steps to 'artificially inflate' diversity numbers to hit target, defence sources suggestblob:https://www.pprune.org/8e885f0b-6c50-497a-8e4b-8fb032feed2e


This might sound stupid, but is the infrastructure in place to absorb the increase of females into the Airforce? Most stations used to have a couple of female accommodation blocks, or has that been ramped up significantly to compensate for the growing percentage of women?

[Barksdale Boy]

The language used by various RAF spokespersons to explain what has been going on seems, to me at least, to be tortured in the extreme - usually a sign that the thought processes involved are also tortured. There used to be a feature in a service publication entitled "Cratese of the week/month". The pieces to which I refer would win every time.

In addition, the Union Jack on the aircraft that appears in the clip used by SkyNews in recent days to introduce the topic is upside down.

[vascodegama]

NL-I am pretty sure the modern accommodation is unisex, happy to be corrected.

B word-some interesting points made, I certainly heard of a male pilot being reinstated when he pointed out that a female at the same base had had many more hours and still handed passed the check he had just failed.

Also don't forget women had a right to leave on marriage- another discrimination against men which was stopped when a male officer asked to do the same!

[The B Word]

olster A very fair point. I suppose the issue with comedies about racist behaviours can also encourage it as people think it’s funny but they really mean it! By the way, I’m also not advocating today’s comedy position either - one where it appears you can’t say anything as it may offend someone! I’m amazed that Dad’s Army is still on telly as it could be seen to ridicule the old!!!

vascodegama Yes, I recall similar. Also, agreed some accommodation is unisex but some is still segregated as the ablutions are unfit as they were designed and built in the 1930s or so with all-male workforce in mind. Although, that said, some would prefer to have working showers full-stop rather than what they currently endure! Also, where female toilets have been introduced then often the singular disabled toilet is allocated to females too..So if you go to 40% female workforce there are going to be queues in some buildings (one of which I can think of was built about 15 years ago and has office accommodation for around 800 staff!).

[Corporal Clott]

I see the RAF use ‘spokesperson’ - has anyone pointed out they can’t use that either as it has the word ‘son’ in it? :p

[treadigraph]

Spokesbody?

[NutLoose]

Wokespoker?

[sharpend]

I served for 39 years. I never saw any racial discrimination in all that time. It also appears that gay people kept their habits hidden, so I never saw any of discrimination on that subject; the fact that homosexuality was forbidden meant I never saw it. But I do agreed that the Service's attitude towards females was mixed; they were sometimes given preferential treatment and often used their sexuality to further their careers. Of course, that did not apply for all women. However, I never observed any significant discrimination of any kind and am positive that racial discrimination did not exist. Just my viewpoint of a period 1964 - 2003.

[higthepig]

Just imagine, 10 years time (MFTS might have worked) and a large proportion of my squadron are either on maternity leave or observing Ramadan and are unfit to work, can we ask for a pause from any adversary or crisis event? Just asking for a friend

[NutLoose]

You could always bring back the WRAF, that way you would have an “airforce” exclusive for women and one for men,(MRAF?) thus at a stroke you have got rid of the requirements to meet diversity quotas and “each” airforce would recruit individually through the same infrastructure meaning their numbers could vary individually dependent on their recruitment successes to find a balanced RAF force as a total..

job done

[ancientaviator62]

I do wonder if the lady in question is being groomed for the the job. It would be the ultimate in PC and virtue signalling.

[superplum]

You could always bring back the WRAF, that way you would have an “airforce” exclusive for women and one for men,(MRAF?) thus at a stroke you have got rid of the requirements to meet diversity quotas and “each” airforce would recruit individually through the same infrastructure meaning their numbers could vary individually dependent on their recruitment successes to find a balanced RAF force as a total..

job done

WOT! No "inbetweeners"?

How double-dare you!

[TowerDog]

I remember reading, in the early 90's, about a teenager in the USA (where elseimages/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif) who was trying to sue her parents for having her. Her parents were less than aesthetically pleasing to behold and this young lady did unfortunately look like she had crawled out of the gene pool whilst the lifeguard wasn't looking -

Maybe this is the one?

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1680x1436/d99041ec_4e99_4fff_a038_ec762f8877e7_8140990c0cfa48d0b8b457d a5a99387eef823f7f.jpeg

[cliver029]

Does anyone else get the irony in the confusion coming out of airship towers around the current shambles

I have three sets of grandchildren growing up.

The eldest at university studying engineering was planning to apply to the RAF on graduating now instead he is going for an internship at one of those companies that are based around Silverstone so disgusted he is with the publicity surrounding this issue, shame really as he would have been the forth generation of the family to serve his country!

the next down is just about to take A* levels and has threatened to cut me off at the knees if I even act like an unreconstructed 78 year old, she has multiple bame friends and is committed to racial equality but even she considers A.V.M woke does not understand the thought processes the emerging generations have to racial equality.

The third set just entering their teens have lived all their life in the UAE,speak Arabic have friends all over the world, but when they came home recently I asked who they were they said British.

So in summary an older white female AVM is imposing her ideals on the generations that are coming through when and I say again the people they are targeting don't see diversity they just see human beings.

She should do the honourable thing and resign, but no just like instances as per David Hills books the airships will form a circle and protect her, where oh where is Ben Wallace when he is needed

[Jobza Guddun]

But it isn't just her though, is it? All of the top end must have discussed this and as there haven't been any sackings (I presume GM has moved on schedule or was it unexpected?) there must have been agreement. Ergo they're all culpable for this (and for all the other damage that's been done!), and very much appear to be just a series of "managers" with big and clever ideas while missing the basics of what it takes to be military. So even if people go, who the hell comes next?

As someone closer to the coal face rather than the ivory tower, I haven't seen such disconnect between top and bottom since the days of the Mull Chinook inquiry. Nor is it obvious who is going to turn it around. In football terms, we've gone all Manchester United.

Target the advertising by all means, but I want the best we can get working with and for me - not someone who is a bloody statistic first and foremost!! Let's face it; the next conflict for us is in clear sight so we need to get this right. As the whole of the public sector seems to have gone ED&I-mad, is this why everything seems to be a shambles?

B Word, another spot on post.

[Tigger_Too]

This article by Andrew Neil is well worth a read

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11128725/From-RAF-elite-universities-Britain-prizes-diversity-talent-says-ANDREW-NEIL.html

[Wetstart Dryrun]

GSOH essential

[NutLoose]

WOT! No "inbetweeners"?

How double-dare you!

No we would direct them over to the Navy desk. ;)

[fokker1000]

Which sources claim? That is to poster 1

[Chewing the crud]

Does anybody know if any of the senior personnel mentioned have been involved in the 'leadership programme' run by the not for profit organization Common Purpose?
This organization had some unwelcome publicity a while back during the Leveson Phone hacking enquiry and has flown under the radar since then.

[Haraka]

I find this all a bit disheartening as an implied reflection on some of the superb RAF Women Officers I have worked with and for.

[Fitter2]

I find this all a bit disheartening as an implied reflection on some of the superb RAF Women Officers I have worked with and for.

Unfortunately, the ones that deserve their ranks and roles will be lumped together with the ones assumed (rightly in some cases) to be there only because of their gender/ethnicity/sexual preference, and also suffer from this idiocy.

By all means target recruitment advertising to attract applicants from all parts of society. Then select and promote on merit only.

[Fortissimo]

Which sources claim? That is to poster 1

It is coded language that means they have unofficial information (ie leaked) from someone within the organisation who they have agreed not to name. It is sometimes used when they have an off the record briefing, when they will say ‘a senior official said’. That’s all.

[higthepig]

Haraka ,lI find this all a bit disheartening as an implied reflection on some of the superb RAF Women Officers I have worked with and for.

I do not disagree with you at all, my best boss by far was a woman (hope she doesn't read this as she'll gloat for ages!). What I would like to see is the best person for the job, not someone fulfilling a quota. Could we not be sex, creed, religion, sexual orientation, like/dislike of Star Wars (or other fantasy guff) agnostic?

[biddedout]

I remember being confused by the signage on the toilets doors in the simulator building at the RAF's top secret maritime base. Male, Female and Officers. Is the RAF still having to pander to the sensitivities of this minority third sex?

[Longtimer]

Maybe this is the one?

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1680x1436/d99041ec_4e99_4fff_a038_ec762f8877e7_8140990c0cfa48d0b8b457d a5a99387eef823f7f.jpeg
No, A Woman in California is Not Suing Her Parents Due to ‘Ugly Genes’ – HOAX DETECTION AND ANALYZER (syyhoaxanalyzer.com) (https://www.syyhoaxanalyzer.com/?p=2436)

[TowerDog]

No, A Woman in California is Not Suing Her Parents Due to ‘Ugly Genes’ – HOAX DETECTION AND ANALYZER (syyhoaxanalyzer.com) (https://www.syyhoaxanalyzer.com/?p=2436)

Oh, well it was a good story, almost as unbelievable as a rumor that the good old RAF will be recruiting aircrew based on what they have in their pants, (or not) or based on the shades of the tan of their skin, or confusion about their sexual orientation. (I am not making this up, honestly) :sad:
R.I.P. Good old RAF, the inmates are surely ruling the asylum.

[Baldeep Inminj]

The lies from MOD continue to pile up. There WAS a pause and there WAS illegal discrimination. However, AVM Byford is a woman and will therefore get away with breaking the law…the RAF will see to that. Wiggy will protect the law breakers as long as they are BAME or female.

I must note this. I was an instructor/standards/CFS dude for 17 years. I taught many female students and every single one was driven and motivated and above all, talented - without exception. I am pretty confident to say that they all finished in the top half of their courses and certainly at least one came top.

In my many years I also had 2 female Sqn bosses and both were man hating bullies who led by ridicule and threats. I personally documented their many exploits of bullying and provided them to respective Station Commanders. I know the first one left after not getting staff college (having an affair with a married Nav on our Sqn didn’t help), and the 2nd is still in - I fear for anyone under her command as she really does hate men and has put posts on social media to that effect.
How did 2 people with such hateful attitudes get promoted? The first (20 years ago) I can guess and it was what many will be thinking. The second was a below average pilot and well known as such, and had a real attitude problem and a quick temper, but still got a Sqn (as a Sqn Ldr). On the unit she commanded she was an utter joke and I just ignored everything she said. She most certainly was not promoted on ability.

https://news.sky.com/story/raf-recruitment-chief-refused-unlawful-order-to-prioritise-women-and-ethnic-minorities-over-white-men-leaked-email-reveals-12678612 (https://news.sky.com/story/raf-recruitment-chief-refused-unlawful-order-to-prioritise-women-and-ethnic-minorities-over-white-men-leaked-email-reveals-12678612)RAF recruitment chief refused 'unlawful' order to 'prioritise women and ethnic minorities over white men', leaked email reveals

[Riskman]

Are you a real Major or an equality tick?
That would very quickly have become a dig among my lineys if a female or ethnic minority member of the team wasn't performing well. This policy is creating division because the perception will permeate through the rank and career structure; she got her fitters course because she's a woman, he got his tapes before me because he's an ethnic.
This issue concerns me not just because it's my Service (retired, but still) open to ridicule but also because I am an instructor with the Air Cadets in a predominantly white area and most of the 14/15 year olds still see the RAF as a possible career path. I would hate to see their dreams turn to dust through the inept mismanagement of recruitment.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

if there is nothing between 2 applicants for one job I always take the one who brings something else
In that case there was never nothing between them. If there's literally nothing between them in regard to the job, then pick a name out of a hat. Picking on anything else is just reflecting your bias.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

For a while now we’ve been hearing, ad infinitum, “Diversity is our greatest strength!”, a statement offered with no supporting evidence and to be accepted without question. For most of us it’s just another slightly fatuous mantra, to be tolerated while we go about our business as normal. Unfortunately some VSOs act as if they genuinely believe it. We can only hope that our enemies don’t prioritise more traditional greatest strengths, like uncompromising selection and training, superior equipment, and overwhelming firepower. Things that have previously proven quite handy when it comes to winning wars.

[snapper41]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1386x1442/a42f4c70_5f15_4f5b_8d79_ea410d8994e5_15a9a3c17f76d3d9fe66e97 5759914d9cc9d0146.jpeg

Rod Liddle; nail, head. Sunday Times 21 August

[Roland Pulfrew]

For a while now we’ve been hearing, ad infinitum, “Diversity is our greatest strength!”, a statement offered with no supporting evidence and to be accepted without question. For most of us it’s just another slightly fatuous mantra, to be tolerated while we go about our business as normal. Unfortunately some VSOs act as if they genuinely believe it. We can only hope that our enemies don’t prioritise more traditional greatest strengths, like uncompromising selection and training, superior equipment, and overwhelming firepower. Things that have previously proven quite handy when it comes to winning wars.

👏👏👏

[Bob Viking]

As much as I fear this current furore will change nothing, I am actually very glad it has happened. For quite a while now we (all of us, not just the white men) have had to endure the D&I or E&D lectures. We have had to sit quietly and be told how we should behave. If we dared to question it we would be immediately shot down and called nasty names. You could probably look back through this forum and find numerous examples of well-meaning progressives telling everyone else how it is for ‘the greater good’.

The funny thing is that the vast majority of us (there are still outliers who do need to be told how to behave but their numbers are very limited and they usually make themselves quite obvious) already knew how to behave. We understood the reasons why the lectures existed (and wholeheartedly supported the motives) but secretly seethed at the fact our intelligence was being constantly insulted and our characters impugned. Additionally, if I were from a minority race or female I suspect I would be absolutely livid that there were people who looked at me like I was only there to satisfy a quota. But I would probably be even more livid at the people who milk it for all they’re worth. A great example of that came from my time in Canada. One female fighter pilot was all over the media and attended every corporate event going to celebrate ‘girl power’. Another female fighter pilot quietly, and very effectively, got on with her job. Guess which one was the better operator?

Well maybe now someone might sit up and take notice. The well-meaning crusade has, as predicted by the vast majority of personnel, spectacularly backfired. And now everyone is pissed off. Not just the white guys.

Maybe if or when I look to rejoin in a few years I may be welcomed back. Even if only to satisfy a new quota. That of the under-represented middle aged white male.

BV

[2Planks]

BV

I agree, but I do wonder how much is due to the tyranny that HR has become in industry, it used to be a function, now it has grown many heads and is seen as the be all and end all of a company.

To underline your point about most of us knowing and doing the right thing - Somehow I missed EandD training for years, multiple dets and moves etc. I was sat at my desk in MOD and received a call from a Flt Sgt at Uxbridge. He said, Sir, you don't appear to have done any E and D training, he paused, so I said fair cop Flt Sgt, where do I go. It was a CBT package, but you did one test first and then another after 3 hours frantic mouse clicking. Test one 94%, test 2 88%!

[NutLoose]

In that case there was never nothing between them. If there's literally nothing between them in regard to the job, then pick a name out of a hat. Picking on anything else is just reflecting your bias.
Or take both.

[Roland Pulfrew]

This was the letter in the Telegraph on Saturday:

RAF recruitmentSIR – The Chief of the Air Staff seems determined to expose the RAF to criticism and ridicule.

He is planning to ditch the mandatory fitness test for “digital specialists” who do not have frontline combat roles (in which case, they should be civilians); the Red Arrows are two aircraft down due to a pilot being sacked and another resigning; the pilot- training pipeline is in crisis; and one of the top priorities of the RAF is to achieve its diversity targets (report, August 17 (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/16/raf-recruitment-chief-quits-amid-row-pause-hiring-white-men/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr)).

All of this suggests that the RAF is not getting the military-style leadership it needs to focus on its ability to fight and win – which is what the public expect and pay for.

Rear Admiral Philip Mathias (retd)
Southsea, Hampshire


Seems a pretty fair summary to me. Sadly, I think Bill Wratten’s response a day or two later, completely missed the point.

[Trumpet trousers]

now it has grown many heads and is seen as the be all and end all of a company.

Fixed that for ya

[dctyke]

Meanwhile, jobs (sort of) for the boys and (possibly) girls. How did we ever get by without them.


Air Commodore S A Harper OBE to be Regional Air Officer Southeast with effect from 20 September 2022. This is a new post.

Air Commodore S N Perkins CBE to be Regional Air Officer Southwest with effect from 15 July 2022. This is a new post.

Air Commodore A M Sansom to be Regional Air Officer North England with effect from 16 September 2022. This is a new post.

[Baldeep Inminj]

Meanwhile, jobs (sort of) for the boys and (possibly) girls. How did we ever get by without them.


Air Commodore S A Harper OBE to be Regional Air Officer Southeast with effect from 20 September 2022. This is a new post.

Air Commodore S N Perkins CBE to be Regional Air Officer Southwest with effect from 15 July 2022. This is a new post.

Air Commodore A M Sansom to be Regional Air Officer North England with effect from 16 September 2022. This is a new post.

Now be fair. With 1 Air Commodore for every 4 1/2 aircraft, they cannot all have proper jobs. They will be Wiggies disciples and they must therefore be given made up jobs at public expense…that is now the corporate soul of the RAF.

Honestly…you really ought to think these things through.

[NutLoose]

Note it says North England as opposed to Southwest etc, is that to show Scotland is not included?

Do you think he has found this stuffed down the back of a drawer? Map of UK showing WWII air defence sectors and airfields

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1300x1066/image_0f21307a7a05442892b312493b2069b6ca4669e5.png

[oldmansquipper]

Has anyone else noticed that the only senior officer with the balls to stand up against the recruitment clusterfcuk …is, wait for it…(‘gender specific wording’ warning here) ……...a WOMAN!

Ironic or what?

[langleybaston]

Not at all surprising.
If I had to name the ten finest colleagues/ bosses who I worked with/ for during my time in Met., women would fill 4 or 5 places, and this in an era when women were much in a minority at the sharper ends where I grew seaweed and studied my crystal balls.

[dctyke]

Now be fair. With 1 Air Commodore for every 4 1/2 aircraft, they cannot all have proper jobs. They will be Wiggies disciples and they must therefore be given made up jobs at public expense…that is now the corporate soul of the RAF.

Honestly…you really ought to think these things through.

I don’t think Air Commodore Perkins gets 4 1/2 aircraft, in fact I’m struggling to find what he/she gets at all? Maybe St Mawgen or Chivenor will have to reopen to justify the job unless brize sneaks in!

[Surplus]

The Russia military must be weeing in their pants with amusement on receiving news of this rank stupidity.

I think they might be too concerned by them getting their arses handed to them by Ukraine to worry about our Wokeness.

[hoodie]

The Chinese, however...

[Red Line Entry]

Note it says North England as opposed to Southwest etc, is that to show Scotland is not included?

Nutty, correct, because there already exists an Air Officer Scotland (as well as an Air Officer Northern Ireland and an Air Officer Wales) and has done for about 6 years. These posts are all part-time reservists and the point of them is to engage with the local community to both relieve the burden on over-stretched stn cdrs and also to cover those areas of the country where there is no longer an RAF presence.

[langleybaston]

to cover those areas of the country where there is no longer an RAF presence.

So we need more such posts, not fewer, judging by the way matters are running.

[Melchett01]

Nutty, correct, because there already exists an Air Officer Scotland (as well as an Air Officer Northern Ireland and an Air Officer Wales) and has done for about 6 years. These posts are all part-time reservists and the point of them is to engage with the local community to both relieve the burden on over-stretched stn cdrs and also to cover those areas of the country where there is no longer an RAF presence.

What exactly will they do? And to what extent? One middle aged part time Air rank cutting around a big chunk of the country opening fetes and glad handing local councillors and businesses.

Call me a bluff old traditionalist, I’d rather have a few more Stations and Sqns than a part time Air Rank reminding people of when we had an Air Force. I don’t think we’d struggle to employ said Stations and Sqns in the current circumstances.

But frankly it’s about what I’ve come to expect from the current crop. It’s very tempting, in my grandfather’s terminology, to refuse to soldier.

[BEagle]

Sadly, I think Bill Wratten’s response a day or two later, completely missed the point.

Do tell, Roly old bean!

[TowerDog]

Everything is ok now: We got a black female Barbie doll in a wheel chair:
Nobody left out, all good.:sad:


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/f5ada773_d0eb_4cfd_9cea_163678630814_4ad836f81f87f04deab0b22 aaad913611a4aff91.jpeg

[BBadanov]

Everything is ok now: We got a black female Barbie doll in a wheel chair:
Nobody left out, all good.:sad:


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/f5ada773_d0eb_4cfd_9cea_163678630814_4ad836f81f87f04deab0b22 aaad913611a4aff91.jpeg
But is Ken gay?

[MPN11]

But is Ken gay?
Mandatory, I would suggest.

[NutLoose]

No, he is transitioning.. I didn't know they did false legs in purple.. I wonder what a child of 5 thinks getting a doll with a false leg at Christmas. Surely toys are there to inspire children through play, unless that child is disabled, it seems a strange one to market, mind you we did have one legged pirate,s mee hearty's.

[Trumpet trousers]

But is Ken gay?

He's got knock knees too, so might struggle with the AFT, unless he's a computer geek and gets a bye

[Wyntor]

This is getting beyond funny now. The whole Baggers and Biffo twitter show makes them both look ridiculous. How anyone can think that a public spat with the mainstream media on twitter is going to have any positive outcome is beyond me.

[VintageEngineer]

In all the media coverage and various forums, including here, I’ve seen little or nothing on one important aspect: a large proportion of ethnic minorities have a cultural aversion to joining the military and police, seeing them either as low status or part of a repressive government apparatus, and many women see the military as unsuitable for women. The current situation can be seen as a desperate measure to cover the failure of the military to sell themselves to these groups and overcome cultural prejudices, something they dare not discuss in public for fear of being labelled ‘racist’.

As an aside, I’m a member of a car club where the new chairman is likely to be a serving RAF officer, the only other candidate having been bullied into stepping down. Whilst the club is overwhelmingly white men, we do have a number of active women, ethnic minority, LGBTQ and transgender members. In over 10 years I’ve neither seen nor heard of anything negative towards them. However, after a stupid spat when an older member unwisely used a term no longer acceptable in polite company (think Robertsons jam) to describe a well-known mixed-race F1 driver, our chairman-to-be has pledged to rid the club of dinosaurs (which I presume I am) and make the club more ‘inclusive’. I look forward to seeing if his recruitment methods will be any more successful than the RAF’s.

[Roland Pulfrew]

This is getting beyond funny now. The whole Baggers and Biffo twitter show makes them both look ridiculous. How anyone can think that a public spat with the mainstream media on twitter is going to have any positive outcome is beyond me.

For those of us who do not play in the Tw@ttersphere, what’s happening?

[t7a]

Actually, all this and the illegal immigration problem could be solved in an instance. Issue 1250s to all those coming ashore at Dover.

[albatross]

A funny but nasty comment from a friend who read this thread:

”Nothing to worry about, the RAF hasn’t been able to hit a target for years!”

Of course he thinks the RAF and RCAF have been on a slippery downhill slide since late 1945.

[Biggus]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in any of the previous 225 posts, however...

A total of 13% of the UK population is made up of ethnic minorities. The RAF, under Wigston, has a recruitment target of 20% ethnic minorities. First of all this is apparently a more ambitious target than that of either the Army or RN. So presumably this isn't a tri-service policy, having come down from CDS or the politicians, but an RAF (under Wigston) self generated figure. Secondly, a target of 20% vs 13% of the population indicates a policy of deliberate over representation, by around 50%, dare one say a policy of "positive discrimination"?

[Wycombe]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in any of the previous 225 posts, however...

A total of 13% of the UK population is made up of ethnic minorities. The RAF, under Wigston, has a recruitment target of 20% ethnic minorities. First of all this is apparently a more ambitious target than that of either the Army or RN. So presumably this isn't a tri-service policy, having come down from CDS or the politicians, but an RAF (under Wigston) self generated figure. Secondly, a target of 20% vs 13% of the population indicates a policy of deliberate over representation, by around 50%, dare one say a policy of "positive discrimination"?

"Positive discrimination is recruiting or promoting a person solely because they have a relevant protected characteristic. Setting quotas to recruit or promote a particular number or proportion of people with protected characteristics is also positive discrimination. Positive discrimination is unlawful in Great Britain"

So there you have it.

[oldmansquipper]

I don't know if this has been mentioned in any of the previous 225 posts, however...

A total of 13% of the UK population is made up of ethnic minorities. The RAF, under Wigston, has a recruitment target of 20% ethnic minorities. First of all this is apparently a more ambitious target than that of either the Army or RN. So presumably this isn't a tri-service policy, having come down from CDS or the politicians, but an RAF (under Wigston) self generated figure. Secondly, a target of 20% vs 13% of the population indicates a policy of deliberate over representation, by around 50%, dare one say a policy of "positive discrimination"?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x995/f4807e96_eaa8_4791_a5d4_d012e7a438bb_f39b43738d7569317c8cacd 84ec56b5c38cb587f.jpeg

[muppetofthenorth]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x995/f4807e96_eaa8_4791_a5d4_d012e7a438bb_f39b43738d7569317c8cacd 84ec56b5c38cb587f.jpeg
This ignores the age of the demographic in question.

Nobody in recruiting cares about the sizable population of crusty, straight white people who are 50+. They care about the <30s, who have a higher percentage in all those categories - and by a substantial margin.

[langleybaston]

This ignores the age of the demographic in question.

Nobody in recruiting cares about the sizable population of crusty, straight white people who are 50+. They care about the <30s, who have a higher percentage in all those categories - and by a substantial margin.

Please may we have percentages for under 30s? Facts not arm-waving.

Is "under 30" a useful demographic? How
many are recruited over age 25 years I wonder?

[popeye107]

This is getting beyond funny now. The whole Baggers and Biffo twitter show makes them both look ridiculous. How anyone can think that a public spat with the mainstream media on twitter is going to have any positive outcome is beyond me.
shut up, muppet.

[langleybaston]

shut up, muppet.

At last! The cultured and reasoned contribution that has been long awaited.

[oldmansquipper]

This ignores the age of the demographic in question.

Nobody in recruiting cares about the sizable population of crusty, straight white people who are 50+. They care about the <30s, who have a higher percentage in all those categories - and by a substantial margin.

I wonder what the age demographic of the woke lobby is?

As for the meejah agenda bending? As ‘someone’ who knew a bit about the power of media once said….“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
As an aged WASP oxygen thief, I’m not there yet.

[RAFEngO74to09]

NEW: The head of the RAF - @ChiefofAirStaff (https://twitter.com/ChiefofAirStaff) - says he will address “as a priority” a series of “legitimate questions” raised in the media over diversity targets in the @RoyalAirForce (https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce) , allegations of sexual harassment & bullying in the @rafredarrows (https://twitter.com/rafredarrows) & concerns about flying training

Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "NEW: The head of the RAF -@ChiefofAirStaff - says he will address “as a priority” a series of “legitimate questions” raised in the media over diversity targets in the @RoyalAirForce, allegations of sexual harassment &amp; bullying in the @rafredarrows &amp; concerns about flying training https://t.co/8kIjPFUdQe" / Twitter

[alfred_the_great]

Please may we have percentages for under 30s? Facts not arm-waving.

Is "under 30" a useful demographic? How
many are recruited over age 25 years I wonder?

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/demographics/age-groups/latest

gov figures from 2018. BAME age profile skews young.

lots recruited over 25, both Officer and OR.

[FantomZorbin]

LB
Brilliant! :D

[Low average]

Looking at CAS's latest message, I think it means....

There might be a problem...but probably not.
Keep all the nasty stuff behind closed doors and please stop leaking.
Everybody else is wrong on this...I'm pressing ahead regardless.

[vascodegama]

I thought that the idea behind all this recruitment targets was that the armed forces reflect society as a whole not a certain age group. It should be that percentage that is aimed for regardless of the age group that actually serves. FWIW I think the idea is bollox.

[oldmansquipper]

NEW: The head of the RAF - @ChiefofAirStaff (https://twitter.com/ChiefofAirStaff) - says he will address “as a priority” a series of “legitimate questions” raised in the media over diversity targets in the @RoyalAirForce (https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce) , allegations of sexual harassment & bullying in the @rafredarrows (https://twitter.com/rafredarrows) & concerns about flying training

Deborah Haynes on Twitter: "NEW: The head of the RAF -@ChiefofAirStaff - says he will address “as a priority” a series of “legitimate questions” raised in the media over diversity targets in the @RoyalAirForce, allegations of sexual harassment &amp; bullying in the @rafredarrows &amp; concerns about flying training https://t.co/8kIjPFUdQe" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1562888326989824000)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/raf-commander-is-blasted-by-officers-who-said-he-had-no-clue/ar-AAO6QWx


I do hope ‘T’Board’ also consider the implications of this ‘vote of confidence’ from his troops which quietly disappeared from the public eye….


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9958461/Top-RAF-commander-blasted-63-officers-telling-no-clue-use-regiment.html

OMS (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9958461/Top-RAF-commander-blasted-63-officers-telling-no-clue-use-regiment.html)

[Low average]

Very disconcerting that, with war in Europe and the UK being put repeatedly under Nuclear threat, the precious time and energy of our military leaders is spent on these issues. No wonder the troops and the public are concerned.

Agility is the ability to swifty recognise and act when the situation has changed. The age of lazy leadership - focussing on unimportant issues - must end.

[downsizer]

Is "under 30" a useful demographic? How
many are recruited over age 25 years I wonder?

Lots. I know this because I have been a recruiter.

[muppetofthenorth]

Please may we have percentages for under 30s? Facts not arm-waving.

Is "under 30" a useful demographic? How
many are recruited over age 25 years I wonder?
Damn sight more useful than looking at the national population in one go... How many 80 year olds do you think we're recruiting?

[beardy]

I thought that the idea behind all this recruitment targets was that the armed forces reflect society as a whole not a certain age group. It should be that percentage that is aimed for regardless of the age group that actually serves. FWIW I think the idea is bollox.
Pretty soon that younger age group will be representative of society as a whole. That is before you and I shuffle off this mortal coil. Ignoring this working age group is only kicking the can down the road.

[oldmansquipper]

For sure. Beardy, It will soon be all their problem after all.

Time is short, and it should be sorted sooner rather than later…only about 10 days for the VVSOs to get their ducks in a row.

Looking forward, however

If a defence secretary (and the meejah) can hound a VSO out of post for buying too many curtains, and a bunch of liars sorry politicos (and the meejah) can hound out a fellow VSP out of his post for having his cake and eating it at a party, why can’t the current DS (and the meejah) hound out someone who is clearly incompetent?

or am I being too simplistic here?

🤔

[Less Hair]

"It will just take a little snip young man and off you go to flight school.":E

[langleybaston]

Damn sight more useful than looking at the national population in one go... How many 80 year olds do you think we're recruiting?

Muppet you miss my point: I apologise for lack of clarity.
I was attempting to suggest that most recruiting is of under 25s [and I accept that almost all is of under 30s].

My assumption is just an assumption, and I am in no position to justify it, or show it to be incorrect.

Are you?

[RAFEngO74to09]

(3) Ministry of Defence Press Office on Twitter: "(1/3) The Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) has invited Defence ministers to the next scheduled Air Force Board meeting to discuss personnel policy. Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston will use the planned meeting on 7th September to discuss the RAF’s approach." / Twitter

(3) Tobias Ellwood MP on Twitter: "RAF BOARD MEETING 7th Sept I encourage the Defence Secretary to update the House of Commons, in person, after this meeting." / Twitter

[RAFEngO74to09]

Recruiting Films 1970s: Phantoms roaring off, Jaguars struggling to get airborne, fire trucks, police dogs, ATC, proper meals in messes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE8d9l4JyJI

Recruiting Video 2019: all D&I and of limited appeal with almost no front-line element

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X98EyRzQak8

[langleybaston]

That reminds me!

We see virtually no TV except sport, and that only when we visit family. We completely broke the TV habit early in Covid: too depressing.

Recently we have seen a lot of cricket, and have been amazed by the advertisements. Leaving aside that we don't understand half of them, we are struck by the large proportion of BAME actors, far far more than the percentages quoted upstream. I had not focussed on this piece of trivia until SWMBO shouted "an all-white cast!" last night.

It is probably politically incorrect to draw attention to the observation, but, if our armed forces are trying to be representative, why not the meejah?

Have a look and see for yourselves.

[ShyTorque]

I have to agree. Few adverts show the traditional values that our society is based on.
It's the new PC agenda. If you even notice it you are racist/sexist/homophobic and so on.

And there are so many adverts on TV that I now often forget which programme I was actually watching.