Australian Based Pilots working at Atlas

[AerodyManic]

I was fortunate enough to attend one of the recent Atlas roadshows held this week. Just wondering if anyone is working for Atlas and commuting from Australia (particularly west coast) and how they go with flights etc.

Also any feedback regarding the job (training, rosters, fatigue, morale etc) would be greatly appreciated

[non_state_actor]

And how does tax work with the ATO and the IRS?

[Icarus2001]

https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Income-and-deductions/In-detail/Income/Foreign-income-of-Australian-residents-working-overseas/

Lots of good information on the ATO website.

[Servo]

News Article came up today that Private Equity Company, Apollo Global Management, are in talks to buy Atlas. Not sure what that would mean for Atlas and their staff............

Apollo-led investment group in talks to buy Atlas Air - sources | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/apollo-led-investment-group-talks-buy-atlas-air-sources-2022-08-01/)

[Chronic Snoozer]

Ahem. Lower salaries.

[Servo]

Ahem. Lower salaries.
In this market? They are losing too many crew now. Just what Bain did at VA though :mad:

[davidclarke]

With the prospect of Atlas taking hundreds of Aussie pilots a year, the Australian airlines will continue to to be ignorant to the terms and conditions offered here, blaming everyone else, only to go crying to the government asking for access to foreign pilots to plug the shortage.

[AerodyManic]

Thanks DC. Its for this reason that I'm looking at other avenues.
So I guess, back on topic....... keen to hear from current pilots at Atlas

[davidclarke]

Thanks DC. Its for this reason that I'm looking at other avenues.
So I guess, back on topic....... keen to hear from current pilots at Atlas

Yeah I got a bit off topic.

I’m sure you are all over it but are you on the FB page “e3 Atlas air wannabes” ? There is some good info there…..

[Brakerider]

My understanding from the roadshows, was it is very much not a commuting job - any blocks off that enable you to come home are just a bonus. I guess it depends how happy you are sitting in the back of a jet.

[AerodyManic]

The male FO on the roadshow lived in sydney and commuted. Am I wrong in thinking that your 13/14 days off are not allocated in a block?

[aseriesofleftturns]

The male FO on the roadshow lived in sydney and commuted. Am I wrong in thinking that your 13/14 days off are not allocated in a block?

Definitely possible to through bid lines once you have the seniority to do so. On average this seems to happen after around 6-12 months. With seniority, you can consistently hold 17/14 bid lines. It is a commuting contract - within continental US. Beyond that, it's up to you. Very doable from the Europe, Asia and the East Coast of Aus. Bit harder to WA, but also doable. May just cost you an extra day either way.

As mention, the FB group is a great place to start, with sample rosters, bid lines, bases and pay estimates.

airlinepilotforums (dot com) /atlas-polar/ .... is also a good source of accurate and current info.

[umop apisdn]

Commuting from anywhere is going to suck the life out of you. Commuting from WA would be pretty terrible IMO.

[LostWanderer]

I was fortunate enough to attend one of the recent Atlas roadshows held this week. Just wondering if anyone is working for Atlas and commuting from Australia (particularly west coast) and how they go with flights etc.

Also any feedback regarding the job (training, rosters, fatigue, morale etc) would be greatly appreciated

Commuting is probably doable. Should you though? Probably not if you value your health, sanity, lifestyle, relationships etc...Can't speak on the rest but there is a reason they need to hire so many Aussies to keep ops running, and it isn't because its the greatest place on earth to work.

[Australopithecus]

Take it from someone who commuted a five hour trip to work: it only works if you get a two week stretch of days off, and it really adds to your fatigue. I only changed three time zones but it got to be horrible after awhile. Finally the toll on my relationship put an end to all of that.

[AerodyManic]

Yeah thanks for all the insight.

looks like the 13/14 days off in a row only come once the seniority allows for it and even then, it’s still a bid not a guarantee.

Commute would be a ball ache too.

[Brakerider]

Yeah thanks for all the insight.

looks like the 13/14 days off in a row only come once the seniority allows for it and even then, it’s still a bid not a guarantee.

Commute would be a ball ache too.


If you're looking to commute from the west coast, National Cargo might be worth a look. They are commuting E3 Australians via their hub in Dubai.

[peterpicklepeper]

And how does tax work with the ATO and the IRS?
you we’ll pay tax there and receive a credit and that credit goes towards your tax here say if you rent your house out while your gone
as I have just found out

[davidclarke]

If you're looking to commute from the west coast, National Cargo might be worth a look. They are commuting E3 Australians via their hub in Dubai.

From what I have seen with the National Airlines contract they commute you from Australia to where ever in the world they need you. All your commuting is done during their time so at the end of your tour you will get the full 13 days off at home.
I could be wrong but his is how I have had it explained to me. This might be more beneficial if commuting from Perth.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Commands will be a hell of lot quicker than anywhere else.

[Duck Pilot]

Anyone know if Atlas regularly hosts recruitment information webinars for applicants?

[Harbour Dweller]

Not sure about webinars, but they have just finished a recruitment tour down the East Coast.

https://www.eventcreate.com/e/atlasaustraliantour2022

[LTBC]

With the prospect of Atlas taking hundreds of Aussie pilots a year, the Australian airlines will continue to to be ignorant to the terms and conditions offered here, blaming everyone else, only to go crying to the government asking for access to foreign pilots to plug the shortage.

So why does Atlas need to take foreign pilots to plug the shortage if the contract is all roses?

[Lapon]

So why does Atlas need to take foreign pilots to plug the shortage if the contract is all roses?

Probably because it is all roses compared to the offerings in Australia.
Compared to the offerings for those with an unrestricted ability to live and work in the US there might be even better options.

Its all relative.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Ahem. Lower salaries.

Is that possible?????

[TSIO540]

From what I have seen with the National Airlines contract they commute you from Australia to where ever in the world they need you. All your commuting is done during their time so at the end of your tour you will get the full 13 days off at home.
I could be wrong but his is how I have had it explained to me. This might be more beneficial if commuting from Perth.

national will commute you but only after you do 160 hours per month.. not kidding and they don’t pay overtime either. From what I’ve heard they couldn’t organise a root in a brothel with a fist full of fifties and their pants around their ankles.

[Australopithecus]

You cannot fly 160 hours in FAR land. Are you talking about duty time? Or time away from base?

[airdualbleedfault]

you we’ll pay tax there and receive a credit and that credit goes towards your tax here say if you rent your house out while your gone
as I have just found out
Yes so basically kiss goodbye to one of the benefits of working in the US (lower taxes) if you plan to commute. Apparently it's a great place to live if you like guns tho :rolleyes:

[Capn Rex Havoc]

national will commute you but only after you do 160 hours per month.. not kidding and they don’t pay overtime either. From what I’ve heard they couldn’t organise a root in a brothel with a fist full of fifties and their pants around their ankles.

A lot of rubbish being said here ^^^^

National commutes you home at the end of your 18 days, irrespective of hours flown.
They don’t have overtime per se but they have a flat hourly rate - 120 bucks per hour first year Fo. If you choose to work on your GDOs they pay 200 percent. ( percentage paid for GDOs is announced each month).

Australopethicus- you can fly 160 hours per month - National is 121 supplemental. 30 hr duty days, an 350 hrs max in 3 months.

[Australopithecus]

Thanks C R H, didn’t know that.

[Rataxes]

National commutes you home at the end of your 18 days, irrespective of hours flown.
They don’t have overtime per se but they have a flat hourly rate - 120 bucks per hour first year Fo. If you choose to work on your GDOs they pay 200 percent. ( percentage paid for GDOs is announced each month).

Australopethicus- you can fly 160 hours per month - National is 121 supplemental. 30 hr duty days, an 350 hrs max in 3 months.
How refreshing to see a post containing factual, useful information.

[VR-HFX]

For a small slab of folk who are in their 50's a job with Atlas or National is perfect. Even though they may have had a command somewhere else with CX or SQ Cargo, this is a chance to get two weeks a month off at home and still get paid more than LHS in their previous job. It is also a chance to recover from the mental torture of the COVID lockdowns and torture they suffered. It is also a chance to join a band of brothers who love the B744/8. Let's face it, commercial flying without PAX is heaven.

[puff]

Alliance or any other Australian airline wants to bring in overseas pilots - Aussie pilots are up in arms - pay us more there is no pilot shortage - just pilots not willing to fly for your crap conditions.....meanwhile in the USA Atlas struggles to fill seats because US pilots don't want to fly there because of the pay and conditions on offer - here the Aussies come !

Oh but the conditions are good compared to Australia - the fact that Aussie conditions are good for South Africans or pilots from other countries is beside the point of the argument it seems.

[Gnadenburg]

More than happy for our US friends, nuclear allies and E3 signatories to fly in Australia. Many of my Captains at Ansett were Americans given full citizenship by Bob Hawke. The more Americans in Australia the better!

Incidentally, I know more Aussies who have left Atlas lately than are joining!

Alliance has every right to advertise in the USA for pilots! For the laugh I’d be happy to start a Go Fund me petition to pay for the advertisement.

[krismiler]

Pay rates at US legacy airlines have bumped up quite a bit and these would obviously be the first choice for someone with a US passport. American Captains are leaving airlines in the Middle East to go home to the RHS now that the pay gap is small enough to make living at home worthwhile.

For an older pilot with Boeing wide body time who was laid off from a legacy airline during COVID and needs to fly for a few more years it might be a good deal. However it would be a hell of a commute and you’d be a zombie for all but a few days each month with the Australia to US time zone difference on top of the circadian disruption of long haul flying.

It might be an opportunity for a young bloke wanting to emigrate and get his foot in the door. Do a few years and try to change to a more permanent status while looking for something better.

[DropYourSocks]

It might be an opportunity for a young bloke wanting to emigrate and get his foot in the door. Do a few years and try to change to a more permanent status while looking for something better.

This is one of the big advantages to the likes of Atlas. You have an adventure, do some cool flying in cool machines and make some decent money. Who knows what other opportunities will come up? Maybe you go home to the career you want, or the American dream reels you in.

There have been rumblings of a certain legacy that may be entertaining the idea of E3s. If that rumor turns out to be true, it will be these widebody E3s front and center of that recruitment line. (Not my rumor btw, so don't shoot the messenger).

Point is, you've got to be in it to win it. The Atlas crew are definitely giving themselves maximum chance at winning.

[KAPAC]

The world belongs to the brave ! ( and those who have a supportive partner )

[Gnadenburg]

I’m pleased this thread moved on from a few days ago, where the Oztronaut mentality was happy to kick an own goal with supply and demand of pilots in this country.

I have to ask but WTF would you commute to Australia once you make the big bucks Stateside? Not only will it kill you if poorly done, in my calculations you may be paying up to $8000AUD + per month to the ATO in additional taxation based on a Captain’s wage. If Australia isn’t a boring country generally in your personal view, it is indisputably aviation wise. It’s quite amazing what US pilots do leisure wise in aviation and that money could buy additional aviation adventures - versus paying Aussies to sit under a tree and not work. 😊

[umop apisdn]

I’m pleased this thread moved on from a few days ago, where the Oztronaut mentality was happy to kick an own goal with supply and demand of pilots in this country.

I have to ask but WTF would you commute to Australia once you make the big bucks Stateside? Not only will it kill you if poorly done, in my calculations you may be paying up to $8000AUD + per month to the ATO in additional taxation based on a Captain’s wage. If Australia isn’t a boring country generally in your personal view, it is indisputably aviation wise. It’s quite amazing what US pilots do leisure wise in aviation and that money could buy additional aviation adventures - versus paying Aussies to sit under a tree and not work. 😊

I really have no idea about Australian taxes anymore but it would be interesting to see a proper comparison.

Medical insurance here is essentially a tax, so I'd lump that in. Property taxes vs rates, car insurance costs, utilities.

There is also a big difference tax wise between living in California and Florida or Nevada.

Most Atlas pilots I've asked think they don't need to pay in Australia or have some kind of cognitive gymnastics going on that allows them to justify ignoring it.

I'd be super interested to hear from anyone who does it properly and has done a comprehensive comparison against living in and paying taxes in the US instead.

​​​​​​

[Verbal Kint]

I’m pleased this thread moved on from a few days ago, where the Oztronaut mentality was happy to kick an own goal with supply and demand of pilots in this country.

I have to ask but WTF would you commute to Australia once you make the big bucks Stateside? Not only will it kill you if poorly done, in my calculations you may be paying up to $8000AUD + per month to the ATO in additional taxation based on a Captain’s wage. If Australia isn’t a boring country generally in your personal view, it is indisputably aviation wise. It’s quite amazing what US pilots do leisure wise in aviation and that money could buy additional aviation adventures - versus paying Aussies to sit under a tree and not work. 😊

But how would their tax position be any different to those CX/KA folks who commuted home to Oz for years?

[Gnadenburg]

Your tax position can be comfortably different to the next bloke doing the same job abroad. Residency is elaborate and couch surfing stateside may be high risk if commuting. A number of Hong Kong pilots were prosecuted. A number probably not caught. Most followed the tax rules as best they could. Our tax system is a self-declaration don’t forget.

Confident and cocky now, one thing is certain, a number of Australian pilots will eventually be heavily fined for not declaring foreign sourced income as Stateside pilots. Don’t get your tax advice from H&R Block and the Flight Deck!

[No Idea Either]

IMHO

If you are still a resident in Oz for taxation purposes, that is, you have investment properties, shares, renting your house whilst you’re gone, etc, and you have to submit a tax return because of that income coming in then you have to answer the question on your return about “have you earned income from any other sources……..”. If you answer yes to that question then you have to declare the income (from Atlas say) along with taxes already paid and the Oz guvmint will work out how much extra you need to pay them to make up the difference to the Oz rates of tax. Could land you with a hefty second tax bill. Of course as mentioned, it’s a self declaration system and most group certificates/income reports from large companies are sent electronically to the ATO now days. If you’re outside that system, which most share trading platforms and banks are not, then yes you could dodge it……maybe. Remember that if you’re sprung 10 years later they will ask for the money, plus interest of around 25%pa (compounding) and penalties if they think you were dodging, which you were, so a few hundred thou dodged could double or triple and become a million dollar tax bill (even more depending). So the answer is to cut ALL financial ties to Oz if you go to avoid all this. Easy done if you’re young, not so easy if you’re a bit older. Of course everyone is different so if your gonna go overseas then you need to speak to a financial advisor who is experienced in these matters, not your dodgy chain store mobs as previously mentioned.

I say again, get financial advice from a reputable, experienced and licenced financial advisor.

[airdualbleedfault]

Gnads is correct, you might get away with it you might not. If the ATO are feeling generous you'll get a circa 100% fine on top of having to pay back the tax. The only fail safe way to go about this is to get a ruling from the ATO, that or move your family out of Oz and don't come back too often

[krismiler]

CX pilots we’re getting away with claiming HK residency while living in Australia up the 1990s. Join CX, do a few years overseas and eventually obtain an Australian base. Quietly shift back and think being out of the country for more than six months of the year kept you out of the ATOs clutches.

This doesn’t work anymore with computer matching in Canberra. If you have a “significant presence” in Australia then you will be hit up for income tax. Basically if you maintain a home and have immediate family living in it, you are up for tax on worldwide income.

If you want to escape the net then have no property available for your sole occupation, take your family with you and carefully count the number of days you spend down under.

Most importantly have a good accountant give your arrangements the once over to avoid and mistakes.

[Verbal Kint]

A handfull of CX pilots claimed section 23AG (?) exemption and got sprung. The practice was not widespread, and most CX/KA Oz commuters did so for years - even decades - whilst remaining in the ATO’s good books.

My point, though, is that commuting from the US ought to be no different from a tax perspective, with the added benefit of the DTA between the US & Oz, unlike HK. Obviously everyone’s situation is different / get your own tax advice etc.

[Gnadenburg]

IMHO

If you are still a resident in Oz for taxation purposes, that is, you have investment properties, shares, renting your house whilst you’re gone, etc, and you have to submit a tax return because of that income coming in then you have to answer the question on your return about “have you earned income from any other sources……..”. If you answer yes to that question then you have to declare the income (from Atlas say) along with taxes already paid and the Oz guvmint will work out how much extra you need to pay them to make up the difference to the Oz rates of tax.


You can still own assets in Australia and be a non-resident for tax. Hundreds of thousands of people do.

The system was actually a gift if worked with legally but many pilot couldn’t get past their aversion for tax and missed investment opportunities. Some of those opportunities have been changed such as CGT breaks for expats.

I had residential and commercial property. I also made maximum concessionary and non-concessionary super contributions until maxed out which displayed an intent to return. Yet for 20 years I was legally a non-resident for taxation.

I think people are getting mixed up with proposed and stalled legislation which dramatically changes many peoples’ residency for taxation.

[Gnadenburg]

My point, though, is that commuting from the US ought to be no different from a tax perspective, with the added benefit of the DTA between the US & Oz, unlike HK. Obviously everyone’s situation is different / get your own tax advice etc.

If you don’t have a life outside of Australia they’ll nab you on residency. And more so than HK where you were paid housing allowances, the scenario is FIFO-like. This is an immediate failure in establishing non-residency status.

Do you have a mortgage or rental lease outside of Australia? A car? Other evidence of a life abroad. If you are couch surfing or spending a few nights in a hotel at your own cost every month, wife and kids back in Australia, you are a resident and the ATO could well be getting much better at discovering this. The scenario for single guys no different but may not be as visible.

I predict you’ll all eventually know a busted pilot commuter within 5 years. The blissful ignorance of taxation requirements is widespread.

The ATO claims it has advanced financial matching techniques with super computers. The evidence they do and it’s working, are reports this area is being expanded as it’s proving so lucrative, in recovering tax owed by Australians self-declaring otherwise.

[43Inches]

The Australian tax system is basically an honesty box patrolled by Auditors. Unless you have a good Accountant that knows the system back to front you won't know what's legal until an auditor runs through your books. With modern banking, everything is linked and they have pretty much all your income/expenditure at their fingertips, what they will want in addition is your excuses for claiming, and or not paying tax, and then come back to you on whether it's right/wrong and how much you owe. If you are earning decent coin overseas it would be best to get proper advice from an accountant with experience in the area, as they say, negligence is not a defense, and depending on how much you owe and the auditor on the day you could be fined as well as owing tax. On the commuting aspect, is commuting paid for by the operator considered a fringe benefit and taxable? Repositioning for duty is definitely not, but commuting is a different concept in the tax world.

[krismiler]

Under recent changes you need to be able to show a foreign tax residency as well if you want out of the ATOs clutches. Being a digital nomad used to be acceptable but now if you work from a laptop in multiple countries using tourist visas and have an Australian passport you are still considered liable even if you’re abroad for more than six months.

Basically you need to show you have established a formal residence abroad with an employment visa, business visa, residence permit etc.

IMO This is a step towards the US system where you are liable for income tax even if you live permanently outside the country and never visit, based on citizenship. It probably won’t happen in the next 5 years but in the next 20 I wouldn’t be so sure.

[43Inches]

Pretty much the same way we will get inheritance tax sooner or later, due to all the property tied up in private hands.

[KAPAC]

Organisations like tax departments must be licking their lips over AI .

[Gnadenburg]

Basically you need to show you have established a formal residence abroad with an employment visa, business visa, residence permit.

This the critical point I’ve tried to make over a number of threads that many seem to be ignorant of. Residency requires significant evidence of a life someplace else.

Commuting back to Australia whilst claiming non-residency for taxation, with no fixed abode abroad and lifestyle to go with it, will see a number of pilot scalps taken by the ATO.

[mates rates]

Always fill in an Australian tax return if you intend returning.For the years I was overseas my accountant did a tax return when I earned income here.In the years I earned no income here my accountant filled out a zero income tax return.Then when I returned I slipped straight back into the system without query.So my advise is stay in the system.