F-35C Accident - USS Carl Vinson

[RAFEngO74to09]

Landing mishap - pilot ejected safely - 7 sailors injured - 3 required evacuation to shore but now stable..

Pilot Ejects After F-35 Lightning II 'Landing Mishap' on USS Carl Vinson in South China Sea - USNI News (https://news.usni.org/2022/01/24/f-35-lightning-ii-has-landing-mishap-on-uss-carl-vinson-in-south-china-sea)

[SpazSinbad]

I will guess - because of the number of injured sailors on deck - sadly - that the cross deck pendant (arrestor wire caught by the F-35C) broke. IT has been said that the F-35C is a 'three wire machine' which may indicate that the number three wire took one too many arrests. The wire would then whip across the deck taking out sailors. Because aircraft not stopping without speed for a 'bolter' the pilot ejects OK and of course the aircraft will be recovered toot de sweet as we know. All above is conjecture though. ASLO: The wire used during an arrest is inspected afterwards every time - that procedure will have been followed - perhaps there was a defect in the cross deck pendant or the arresting gear engine malfunctioned OR it was not set up correctly for an F-35C? "...USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70). The arresting gear is the four cables on the ship’s deck that stop aircraft traveling 150 mph in approximately 320 feet...." https://www.navair.navy.mil/node/3571

IIRC the cross deck pendant is replaced every 100 arrests anyway or when visible damage is perceived.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1146x1103/cvn4wireconfig_fb44db04f86d4f50cad45008d16e40a3af012ab0.gif

[c53204]

The Carl Vinson is fitted with JPALS. I wonder if this was in use?

[SpazSinbad]

What role does JPALS have in F-35C carrier landing approaches today?

[ORAC]

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/us-navy-declares-joint-precision-approach-and-landing-system-operational/143883.article

[unmanned_droid]

JPALS is probably what ensures a '3 Wire'. This seems to be part of what a 'good' carrier landing looks like for grading purposes. It would seem to me, now, which wire you take is less down to skill and more to systems. Perhaps there should be a part of the JPALS code to alter parameters in order to vary which wire is taken such that one particular wire is not used more than the others. I get that there are pros and cons to that suggestion.

[SpazSinbad]

'ORAC' I'm not a FlightGlobal subscriber so I don't see anything not that I think it is relevant. 'unmanned droid' says "JPALS is probably what ensures a '3 Wire'...' No it does not. DELTA FLIGHT PATH with the pilot doing very little except ensuring a good line up is what is involved.
https://www.aerospacetestinginternational.com/features/lightning-ii-ground.html
"...Test pilots and engineers credited the F-35C’s Delta Flight Path (DFP) technology with significantly reducing pilot workload during the approach to the carrier, increasing safety margins during carrier approaches and reducing touchdown dispersion. “The engineers responsible for the aircraft’s control laws did a phenomenal job designing this aircraft from the pilot’s perspective,” Wilson explains. “The control schemes of the F-35C provide a tool for the below-average ball flyer to compete for top hook.” “My major takeaway was that the F-35C is very good at flying behind the ship,” notes Lt Cdr Ted Dyckman, a VX-23 test pilot at the ITF. “Any deviation that someone gets themselves into, they can correct fairly quickly and accurately. In fact, it’s a three-wire machine,” he added, referring to the optimal arresting wire aboard an aircraft carrier. ..."

F-35C Delta Flight Path IDLC Tailhook 2015 Clemence Brief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGVsrNW7bgU
__________________________________________

F-35 New Flight Control Software [IDLC Integrated Direct Lift Control]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlqRo3oBYZ8

[ORAC]

I think the point being made is that JPALs assists the pilot in taking the 3 wire on just about every single approach. The question being asked is that, if this is true, might the additional wear be such that the frequency of cable replacement be made.

[Bengo]

I think the point being made is that JPALs assists the pilot in taking the 3 wire on just about every single approach. The question being asked is that, if this is true, might the additional wear be such that the frequency of cable replacement be made.

I was under the impression that cables are lifed by age and number of pulls (landings into an individual pendant) and visually checked for gross damage after each use. If you are going to nearly always have 3-wire landings this would not change the pendants' life but the Head Badger might want to shuffle them around to get some wear from the others.

I wonder if this is a late life cable that has received an in limits but off-centerline pull?
N

[gums]

Salute!

I gotta go with Spaz.

Over on the F-35 forums one of the "boat" officers( think it was qual flights - Lincoln? been awhile) said that the plane was so accurate that they had to work on the spot on the deck that was repeatedly struck on touchdown.

Good to see the seat working well on that beast and the Bee.

Gums sends...

[sandiego89]

...USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70). The arresting gear is the four cables on the ship’s deck that stop aircraft traveling 150 mph in approximately 320 feet...." https://www.navair.navy.mil/node/3571



A cable break was my first thought as well. Nasty. I recall the #1 wire being removed from a few of the Nimitz Class carriers some 15 years ago, making them a 3 cable system. I believe the reasoning was the #1 wire was always below glideslope, was less than 10% of arrestments, but with all the care, crewing and maintenance still required. The Fords have only 3. With 3, do they still call the preferred 3 wire the three 3 wire, even though it it is the middle of 3 wires?

[unmanned_droid]

I'm sorry but I disagree that JPALS is not responsible for ensuring a '3-wire' every time.

We know that CVN-70 was the first to receive JPALS, so we at least know the system could have been available and in use:

https://www.navair.navy.mil/news/Navy-receives-first-production-unit-next-gen-precision-landing-system/Tue-06092020-1200

JPALS as a precision approach and landing system provides the accuracy required to touch down within 20cm:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/06/21/all-navy-carriers-amphibs-get-f-35-precision-landing-system.html

The news article above mentions the DFP feature in the F-35C, which according to this article:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/08/17/f-35s-new-landing-technology-may-simplify-carrier-operations.html

Reduces workload for the pilot. On a thread on F-16.net JPALS and MAGIC CARPET are suggested to be the same thing re-branded.

Therefore, the '3-wire every time' is a combination of Pilot training, reduced workload features (DFP/MAGIC CARPET depending on what you're flying) and the introduction of shipboard data linked precision approach and landing systems (JPALS).

I seem to remember JPALS demonstrating fully automatic landings some time ago, I guess a proportion of carrier landings and approaches to a CVN by USN aircraft are now full autoland?

Still, if the wires/pendants are lifed, then , as stated, this shouldn't be an issue.

[gums]

Salute!

thnx, Droid, and seems the JPALS might have a mini version that can be used at remote austere bases on deployments. Whether the F-35C delta mode helps, I need a briefing.

Gotta admit, but new avionics and ground support systems are real handy nowadays.

Beats hell outta non-directional beacon we used long ago. You know, ADF. Hell, imagine Spaz flying back to his Oz boat without its TACAN working!

Gums sends...

[ORAC]

Gums, from September, post #6374

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/221116-future-carrier-including-costs-319.html#post11106827

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/navy-league/2021/09/03/raytheons-precision-landing-system-could-be-coming-to-more-allied-ships-expeditionary-airfields-soon/ (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/221116-future-carrier-including-costs-319.html#post11106827)

[RAFEngO74to09]

The Navy's Seventh Fleet said in a statement the F-35C "had a landing mishap and impacted the flight deck and subsequently fell to the water during routine flight operations."

[BEagle]

Jim Lovell had this amazing story:
Uh well, I'll tell ya, I remember this one time - I'm in a Banshee at night in combat conditions, so there's no running lights on the carrier. It was the Shangri-La, and we were in the Sea of Japan and my radar had jammed, and my homing signal was gone... because somebody in Japan was actually using the same frequency. And so it was - it was leading me away from where I was supposed to be. And I'm lookin' down at a big, black ocean, so I flip on my map light, and then suddenly: zap. Everything shorts out right there in my cockpit. All my instruments are gone. My lights are gone. And I can't even tell now what my altitude is. I know I'm running out of fuel, so I'm thinking about ditching in the ocean. And I, I look down there, and then in the darkness there's this uh, there's this green trail. It's like a long carpet that's just laid out right beneath me. And it was the algae, right? It was that phosphorescent stuff that gets churned up in the wake of a big ship. And it was - it was - it was leading me home. You know? If my cockpit lights hadn't shorted out, there's no way I'd ever been able to see that. So uh, you, uh, never know... what... what events are to transpire to get you home.

Beat that!!

[Stitchbitch]

Very sad to hear of the injured deck crew, here’s to a speedy recovery for all involved.

Gums, is it tempting fate to say that the seat and PFE appear to be working as advertised?
Would be good to know if the pilot got into the raft before rescue.

[SpazSinbad]

I'm sorry but I disagree that JPALS is not responsible for ensuring a '3-wire' every time.

We know that CVN-70 was the first to receive JPALS, so we at least know the system could have been available and in use:

https://www.navair.navy.mil/news/Navy-receives-first-production-unit-next-gen-precision-landing-system/Tue-06092020-1200

JPALS as a precision approach and landing system provides the accuracy required to touch down within 20cm:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/06/21/all-navy-carriers-amphibs-get-f-35-precision-landing-system.html

The news article above mentions the DFP feature in the F-35C, which according to this article:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/08/17/f-35s-new-landing-technology-may-simplify-carrier-operations.html

Reduces workload for the pilot. On a thread on F-16.net JPALS and MAGIC CARPET are suggested to be the same thing re-branded.

Therefore, the '3-wire every time' is a combination of Pilot training, reduced workload features (DFP/MAGIC CARPET depending on what you're flying) and the introduction of shipboard data linked precision approach and landing systems (JPALS).

I seem to remember JPALS demonstrating fully automatic landings some time ago, I guess a proportion of carrier landings and approaches to a CVN by USN aircraft are now full autoland?

Still, if the wires/pendants are lifed, then , as stated, this shouldn't be an issue.
Some interesting comments about the wire which will be addressed in another post. This one selected for comment because of the numerous URLs one of which mentions JPALS & DFP but not in the same breath. "...When the Navy (https://www.military.com/navy)'s F-35C Joint Strike Fighter (http://www.military.com/equipment/f-35c-lightning-ii) embarks on its first carrier deployment (https://www.military.com/deployment) in 2021, it's expected to take with it a pinpoint-accurate landing system that purports to make the terror of night approaches and high sea-state traps all but a thing of the past...." https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/06/21/all-navy-carriers-amphibs-get-f-35-precision-landing-system.html

JPALS is used for instrument landings and FINDING the carrier from approx. 200 NM out. However - at the moment - the F-35C pilot uses DFP to fly the VISUAL APPROACH as described in the video. WHEN JPALS is finally certified for the full instrument approach to touchdown/arrest then it will do so in the conditions described OR when the pilot is fatigued during the daytime after a long mission. It is not certified for this but will be at some future time. Yes the robots do it because they are unmanned and they (in the past) used a 'special installation of JPALS'. The pilots in the squadron are not test pilots - they were not using JPALS for a day carrier approach.

[SpazSinbad]

A cable break was my first thought as well. Nasty. I recall the #1 wire being removed from a few of the Nimitz Class carriers some 15 years ago, making them a 3 cable system. I believe the reasoning was the #1 wire was always below glideslope, was less than 10% of arrestments, but with all the care, crewing and maintenance still required. The Fords have only 3. With 3, do they still call the preferred 3 wire the three 3 wire, even though it it is the middle of 3 wires?
Seems like reasonable reasoning for three wires only on two CVNS (listed at the URL). However these NIMITZ Class CVNs ALL have conventional arrestor gear modified to two differing standards (irrelevant to discussion). The FORD Class will use AAG Advanced Arrestor Gear which is technologically much different to the old gear. Long ago it was envisaged to retrofit AAG to some Nimitz carriers but then decided NO.
Advanced Arresting Gear (AAG) | NAVAIR (navy.mil) (https://www.navair.navy.mil/product/advanced-arresting-gear-aag) & Aircraft Launch and Recovery Systems | General Atomics (ga.com) (https://www.ga.com/alre)

ADDITION: I don't recall seeing any other reference online to this so-called 'hit wire'. "...The number two wire, located in the same spot as number three on other carriers, will be the "hit wire."... https://www.thefreelibrary.com/OK+two+wire!+Ronald+Reagan+(CVN+76)+ramps+up+new+technology.-a090332253

LONG AGO LSOs had a newsletter online which was very informative - then the USN / DoD became very secretive with a lot of good information removed from the internet. Some of it survives in my big PDF but sadly some info refers to the online source which is no longer available even on the WayBack Machine. I don't recall at the time the 3/4 wire diagrams were posted in the newsletter whether the question of nomenclature for a '3 wire' on a three wired only 'boat' was mentioned. However I'll post the diagram....

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/860x2000/cvn76onwards_aag3wiresed_eb0fef930233551389a4e1d7bdb4cd4ace7 f09ee.gif

[SpazSinbad]

Salute! ... Beats hell outta non-directional beacon we used long ago. You know, ADF. Hell, imagine Spaz flying back to his Oz boat without its TACAN working! Gums sends...
Poor old spaz thot TACAN (Mk.1) was magic. Aboard HMAS Melbourne It was the FIRST installation in Australia. Being earlier a Vampire/Sea Venom pilot, ADF was our only beacon ashore. "I knew where I was at all times because I knew where I WASN'T" :-) IF TACAN (also installed at NAS Nowra by the time I got there beginning of 1969) was not working onboard then the magnificent & reliable radars & directors did the trick backed up by our mental NAV one would hope. :-) Then TACAN was not that of later versions and not used for approaches. Night carrier approaches were via CCA to one NM using a SEA VENOM radar mounted up high aft onboard 'the warb/war canoe' then visual via the mirror.

[SpazSinbad]

Salute! I gotta go with Spaz. Over on the F-35 forums one of the "boat" officers( think it was qual flights - Lincoln? been awhile) said that the plane was so accurate that they had to work on the spot on the deck that was repeatedly struck on touchdown. Good to see the seat working well on that beast and the Bee. Gums sends...
Gouging the tarmac during hook tests then striking the deck at the same spot would become a 'problem' it was said using DFP because it was so accurate but IIRC I don't believe a 'fix' has been implemented. The carrier probably moves enough to vary the hook strike point enough plus any other variables doing same. JPALS will be programmable for varying the wire to be caught being especially useful during rough weather for the 'hook to ramp' clearance to be safe. LSOs can manipulate a manual mirror MOVLAS (MANUALLY OPERATED VISUAL LANDING AID SYSTEM) situated on the starboard side (called 'station 3' but it can be at stations 1&2 on the port side) to get aircraft onboard in bad weather or when regular IFLOLS at the port side station is (U/S) unserviceable.

USN 'boat officer' quote as mentioned by 'gums': '35_aoa':
“FWIW, CVN 76/77/78 3 wire boat hook to ramp clearance is (IIRC) more like 10 feet. It is different enough that our brand new CAG paddles on cruise (who were both 4 wire boat guys) spent some time learning the "new" sight picture. For a month or two, they were calling low all the way for what were on-on passes. Then the airwing paddles collectively got into the debate of whether or not an "OK 1 wire" was a thing. Technically speaking, it is, based on the reduced hook to ramp clearance, but it took several months to convince CAG paddles of this. Old habits and sight pictures die hard I suppose.” http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=52238&p=353647&hilit=hook#p353647

[SpazSinbad]

One day the 'funni' txt transcript of the F-35C test pilot may be corrected as best as possible before I burst belly laffing but no mention of JPALS.

F-35C Delta Flight Path IDLC Tailhook 2015 Clemence Brief [uboob wideo]
Sep 28, 2015 Transcript
"On the boat I DLC and dfp who's familiar with this any magic carpet lectures out there people have been to okay if I said if you called the ball and you heard 40 knots 42 not starboard would it make you nervous well this control scheme makes it easy what I dlc is is integrated direct lift control what that means is the throttle just doesn't control the engine it controls the lift on the wing so you are directly affecting almost instantaneously your glide slope with throttle control you couple that with dfp which is delta flight path delta flight path is a flight control scheme that essentially flies a very precise glide slope for you when it's engaged and that's programmable so most of time our basic angle set at three and a half degrees so we have three and a half degrees set in there if you're low in this case you're basically hands off but if you do find yourself a little let's say a ball low then you pull back on the stick until you see a center ball and then you release and the ball should stay centered it has gust redirection for the berbil that it knows the winds because it has an AI NS system and it's always calculating the winds the only thing you need to do is plug in ship speed you plug in ship speed then it can do all the math for you I mean it hasn't aged the radar for crying out loud it should be able to figure this stuff out it's just basic trigonometry and so we've instituted this flight control mechanism in the airplane and we flew it on VT 1 and I'm telling you from the pilot's perspective if you've been in the cockpit for six or eight hours and you just want to get a board at night you're going to want delta flight path because it is very little work load you essentially just engage it with a nose wheel steering button and you're on that three and a half degree glide slope and you just make small deviations as required if you're 42 not starboard you might have to make three corrections you feel the airplane working airplanes are working a lot but you're doing very little except for starting at a center ball from the LSO perspective they've said it looks a lot like a mode one approach so it's very stabilized a very low workload for the pilot the Hudson Balaji is a little different because this is more applicable basically right here you have a glide slope reference line so the big joke with the Hornet but we'll guys kind of tell us all you do is put the thing on the thing and that's it well now you just put the thing on the thing on the thing and essentially you will be flying a precise three and a half glide slope to touch down whether or not the lens is even on so we're making it we know the geometry we know the winds we know the ship's speed if you put this budge slope reference line on the lens itself and the SRV V the ship reference the velocity vector on the ship then you will land with the summer ball know there are a lot of skeptics out here but it works and it's it's really nice."

F-35C Delta Flight Path IDLC Tailhook 2015 Clemence Brief - YouTube

[SpazSinbad]

Original thread starter post has been updated with some more detail but not much.
Crashed F-35C Fell off USS Carl Vinson Flight Deck into South China Sea [as one would expect of a wire break] 25 Jan 2022 Sam LaGrone https://news.usni.org/2022/01/25/crashed-f-35c-fell-off-uss-carl-vinson-flight-deck-into-south-china-sea

"...[U.S. 7th Fleet said early Tuesday in a statement] “An F-35C Lightning II assigned to Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 2, embarked aboard USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70) had a landing mishap and impacted the flight deck and subsequently fell to the water during routine flight operations,” the statement said. “Impact to the flight deck was superficial and all equipment for flight operations is operational. Carrier Air Wing 2 and USS Carl Vinson have resumed routine flight operations in the South China Sea.”...

...The Monday crash during a landing on the carrier injured seven sailors, including the pilot who ejected from the F-35 and was recovered from the water by helicopter. “The pilot and two other sailors were [evacuated] to a medical treatment facility in Manila, Philippines, and four sailors were treated by on-board medical personnel,” reads the 7th Fleet statement. All the sailors are in stable condition.

“The U.S. Navy is making recovery operations arrangements for the F-35C aircraft involved in the mishap aboard USS Carl Vinson in the South China Sea,” U.S. 7th Fleet said in a late Tuesday statement following an earlier version of this post...."

[golder]

Salute!

I gotta go with Spaz.

Over on the F-35 forums one of the "boat" officers( think it was qual flights - Lincoln? been awhile) said that the plane was so accurate that they had to work on the spot on the deck that was repeatedly struck on touchdown.

Good to see the seat working well on that beast and the Bee.

Gums sends...
Further to that. I read that they had to introduce a random, inaccuracy range. To try and minimise spot damage.

[NutLoose]

Recovery efforts underway


https://www.reuters.com/article/southchinasea-usa-f35/u-s-navy-working-to-recover-f-35-warplane-that-fell-into-south-china-sea-idUSL1N2U52XC

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Navy said on Tuesday it was making arrangements to recover an F-35C warplane that fell into the South China Sea after a landing mishap this week.

Seven U.S. military personnel were hurt in Monday’s accident on the deck of the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson and the pilot ejected, the Navy said.

“I can confirm the aircraft impacted the flight deck during landing and subsequently fell to the water,” said Lieutenant Nicholas Lingo, spokesperson for the U.S. 7th Fleet.

“The U.S. Navy is making recovery operations arrangements for the F-35C aircraft.”

Asked about an unsourced media report suggesting there were fears that the aircraft could fall into the hands of China, which claims most of the South China Sea, Lingo replied, referring to the People’s Republic of China: “We cannot speculate on what the PRC’s intentions are on this matter.”

It was the second crash involving an F-35, which is made by Lockheed Martin, and a carrier in just over two months.

An F-35 from Britain’s HMS Queen Elizabeth crashed into the Mediterranean Sea in November, though the pilot ejected and was safely returned to the ship. Britain’s Ministry of Defence said that aircraft was subsequently recovered.

Earlier this month, a South Korean F-35A fighter made an emergency landing during training.

In April 2019, a Japanese F-35 stealth fighter crashed in the Pacific Ocean close to northern Japan, killing the pilot.

The U.S. Navy said the pilot ejected safely in Monday’s incident, but was among the personnel hurt.

The Pentagon says two Carrier Strike Groups, ledby the Carl Vinson and USS Abraham Lincoln, began operations inthe South China Sea on Sunday. They entered the disputed sea for training as Taiwan reported a new Chinese air force incursion at the top of the waterway.

Lockheed Martin, which makes F-35 jets, reported better-than-expected quarterly profit on Tuesday.

[SpazSinbad]

Some slides from NAVAIR via SLDinfo about 'Magic Carpet' (now PLM Precision Landing Mode) and DFP for the F-35C with a graphic from it showing touchdown dispersion during testing onboard CVNs. A few pages were deleted (graphics) to get under the PDF file size limit here.
The Magic Carpet System - Enhanced Capabilities for the F-18 Carrier Force - includes Delta Flight Path DFP for F-35C
"...No connection to the ship/datalink..." https://www.slideshare.net/robbinlaird/magic-carpet-landing-system-for-f18s
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1390x995/f_35c_fa_18e_f_touchdowndispersion_dfp_a8d3021501e99c95f8cd0 cffad040ce9adac1bbe.gif

[Obba]

Spaz, great post and info. Have downloaded the pdf.
In my lack of knowledge, do the green dots mean Delta/Path's are good?

It just looks like to me that the F18's have more Greens in the optimal landing area. I understand they are different ships.

[SpazSinbad]

Spaz, great post and info. Have downloaded the pdf. In my lack of knowledge, do the green dots mean Delta/Path's are good? It just looks like to me that the F18's have more Greens in the optimal landing area. I understand they are different ships.
Personally I'm not concerned about the green dots or whatever just that there is dispersion with DFP in both aircraft. DFP was in use with the F-35C that crashed (we don't know how yet) aboard VINSON. Some people want to insist that JPALS was in use. YES it may have been to get back to the carrier and into the marshal but it was not used for the carrier approach part. DFP was in use as has been described. One day when all is hunkydory with JPALS - certified for auto landings to touchdown - it will be used by both Super Hornet & Lightnings in night, rough weather and fatigued pilot deck landings. I have read in the old LSO newsletters that probably future pilots will 'hands off auto land' as a matter of course; while a 'hands on DFP landing' for example will become an 'emergency'. Navy Pilots today resist auto landings but they are meant to be practiced once in a while. Apparently they are very uncomfortable to experience, whilst it is hoped the JPALS auto land to touchdown/arrest will be more comfortable. Yes dispersion in the case of JPALS may be an issue but apparently overcome by slightly varying the programmed touch down point on deck. LSOs are said to be able to program the target wire as mentioned earlier.

[SpazSinbad]

An Example of No.1 arrestor wire NOT set aboard USS Carl Vinson with an F-35C (double nuts 400 of VFA-147 "Argonauts") arresting on the target wire. SMOKIN'. 210128-N-SS900-1459.JPG (4310×3069) (defense.gov) (https://media.defense.gov/2021/Feb/23/2002587314/-1/-1/0/210128-N-SS900-1459.JPG)
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1650x1022/f_35carrestsvinsontyresmokeonewirenotset_5d84037d3d44a6958b9 25463758be35e7896a04c.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

CARRIER CABLE BREAK,S AFTER LANDING F18 HORNET !! [low quality video but informative]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRKN8DCYyrE
_______________________________________

One for the heck of it - pilot not at fault - arrestor wire improperly installed below deck.

A4G Skyhawk 888 Wire Break HMAS Melbourne Pilot Eject OK Finan USN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mGrfKkwPWY

[Davef68]

Alleged photo post-ditching

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/678x381/f_35c_floating_top_6392ea91027c5f42c94c03941e24826a476c2742. jpg

[SpazSinbad]

Looks real enough? OedoSoldier on Twitter: "https://t.co/JvQZErAAK0" / Twitter

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/706x449/f_35cfallindawata_2906c8787f569a11f5ce61f6e1272ed3b5c1d5f5.j pg

[megan]

Seems to float, now if they had a hook on the top they could have craned it aboard. :suspect:

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Seems to float, now if they had a hook on the top they could have craned it aboard. :suspect:
Maybe if the hook and stuff underneath had worked as planned it would not need to be craned out ;-)

It does look pretty buoyant there. I do wonder if they managed to get any lines on it.

SpazSinbad Thanks for all the fantastic info and links. Awesome stuff.

[SpazSinbad]

Race is on to reach sunken US jet... before China 27 Jan 2022 BBC News
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/race-is-on-to-reach-sunken-us-jet-before-china/ar-AATcSjj
"...National security experts say Chinese military would be "very keen" to get to the jet but a US salvage vessel looks to be at least 10 days away from the crash site. That's too late, says defence consultant Abi Austen, because the black box battery will die before then, making it harder to locate the aircraft...."

[sycamore]

Should have had the rescue divers attach a `boooouy` on a loooong piece of string before it went under..

[SpazSinbad]

Once again this is conjecture and I'm not sure the video is even taken onboard VINSON however the power (perhaps to burner because I hear a HOWL at last second) comes on 'at the ramp' but all my conjecture could mean a fairly ordinary F-35C carrier approach. LSOs by the many monitor these approaches so any pilot not responding to their calls will be in big trouble. Anyhooo....

F-35C VFA-147 USS Carl Vinson Approach Full Power BUMP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcAQFS5fAos

[SpazSinbad]

Missed the end frames showing not only smoke but debris. That cannot be good. Smoke from ejection? Not enough known at this stage.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/536x569/f_35csmokerampperhapsvidstill_f526725b945ecb99bce41a04c34ff7 e093cd672d.png

[Easy Street]

Missed the end frames showing not only smoke but debris. That cannot be good. Smoke from ejection? Not enough known at this stage.


That smoke and debris appears much too early (and at the wrong end of the boat) to be associated with a wire break and flop over the side. Assuming that is a video of the approach in question, which seems very likely on first inspection, an altogether much uglier landing accident (such as a ramp strike) has to be considered more likely.

[SpazSinbad]

That smoke and debris appears much too early (and at the wrong end of the boat) to be associated with a wire break and flop over the side. Assuming that is a video of the approach in question, which seems very likely on first inspection, an altogether much uglier landing accident (such as a ramp strike) has to be considered more likely.
Fair enough. From another discussion on another forum that 'ramp strike' would seem to be IT. I have experience in an A4G in a NIGHT RAMP STRIKE during my second NOT night deck landing - high all the way <sigh> Story told somewhere here I imagine, also story in PDF form.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1630x1050/a4g_night_ramp_strike_round_down_melbourne_44df5650d2fdc000f adfc46cd3bf9943306ee7b2.jpg

[sandiego89]

Fair enough. From another discussion on another forum that 'ramp strike' would seem to be IT. I have experience in an A4G in a NIGHT RAMP STRIKE during my second NOT night deck landing - high all the way <sigh> Story told somewhere here I imagine, also story in PDF form.


At least your centerline line up looked pretty good!
Yikes!

[SpazSinbad]

USN confirms authenticity of photo & video shown in this prune thread:
Navy confirms photo and video of F-35 crash on USS Carl Vinson are real (taskandpurpose.com) (https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-confirms-video-photo-f35-crash-uss-carl-vinson-south-china-sea/)

F-35C GRR ARGH RAMP STRIKE USS Carl Vinson VFA-147 'Argonauts' 24 Jan 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=604Bt_BHT8U

[peterperfect]

UKs Daily Mail Online smashing the graphic accuracy again ....

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1302x1002/daily_mail_b0c40f252c01bd76b8ceb68d8ba0be5556a849d6.jpg

[212man]

USN confirms authenticity of photo & video shown in this prune thread:
Navy confirms photo and video of F-35 crash on USS Carl Vinson are real (taskandpurpose.com) (https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-confirms-video-photo-f35-crash-uss-carl-vinson-south-china-sea/)

F-35C GRR ARGH RAMP STRIKE USS Carl Vinson VFA-147 'Argonauts' 24 Jan 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=604Bt_BHT8U

is that tight a base turn normal, or normal for F35? I assume so but seems a much shorter final than earlier types.

[Dan Gerous]

No wonder it crashed if that graphic is correct. Everything is the wrong way round.:eek:

[SpazSinbad]

is that tight a base turn normal, or normal for F35? I assume so but seems a much shorter final than earlier types.
Perhaps the final straightaway is minimal. Hornets/Shornets have an interval no longer than 12-15 seconds to ensure they are NOT long in groove thus mucking up the next aircraft about to turn base from an overhead formation arrival. I have to guess because as you realise at my age I'm not flying an F-35C. A SHOThit (geddit?) USN pilot may try to blast into the break and more or less turn base once downwind to have a shorter groove so as to impress all & sundry (peanut gallery goofers). However said HitSHOT pilot must also impress the covey of LSOs monitoring the approach. So to actually be impressive SIR ShotHIT must get a 'greenie' and OK pass at least with an OK being very impressive indeed (a perfect approach target wire caught with no comments whatsoever) a rare accolade. We don't know if there was an emergency or equipment failure to complicate the ramp strike approach. My impression (from said gallery) is that too much power is taken off at wings level and nothing added until too late. BUT I was not there - I do not have the view nor radio comms of the LSOs - so bear with me. :}
:D POWER POWER POWER - DON'T CLIMB! :eek:

[SpazSinbad]

F/A-18E Super Hornet Landing on the Boat "650 mph approach to carrier break and landing in a F/A-18E Super Hornet. Maneuver referred to by pilots as the "$hit Hot Break"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGkl_voDH7A

[SpazSinbad]

One of many possibilities according to this HIlarious WebSite: The US F-35C fell into the sea due to strong electromagnetic interference?Russian expert: J-16D has this ability, the People's Liberation Army can do it - iNEWS (inf.news) (https://inf.news/en/military/8a803cb2624530c0ade6fc28824bcdde.html)
"...However, a third possibility that caused the F-35C fighter to crash soon appeared. This view is that the electronic fighters of the Chinese Air Force use strong electromagnetic interference. The F-35C lost control and crashed while landing....

...The automatic system for F-35C landing is a magic carpet system specially developed by the U.S. Navy in 2015. After an upgrade in 2017, it is said that even if the fighter plane fails, the magic carpet system can also control the F-35C fighter to automatically land on the on the aircraft carrier. Therefore, Russian experts believe that the electronic jamming pod of the J-16D may have attacked the magic carpet system. After the magic carpet system was interfered, it gave wrong flight data. The F-35C flew according to the wrong flight data and hit the aircraft carrier...."

[rattman]

One of many possibilities according to this HIlarious WebSite: The US F-35C fell into the sea due to strong electromagnetic interference?Russian expert: J-16D has this ability, the People's Liberation Army can do it - iNEWS (inf.news) (https://inf.news/en/military/8a803cb2624530c0ade6fc28824bcdde.html)
"...However, a third possibility that caused the F-35C fighter to crash soon appeared. This view is that the electronic fighters of the Chinese Air Force use strong electromagnetic interference. The F-35C lost control and crashed while landing....



More believable than the anti vaxxers claiming the pilot had a mycarditus while land due to his vacination

[SpazSinbad]

A RUMOUR! going around is that the F-35C pilot had a medical issue then - attempting to get back quickly - had the ramp strike. MEANWHILE:

The REAL Truth About LSOs ['greenie boards' and grades and DL techniques revealed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjL4muLPHRI
_______________________________________

Who are Those Guys? Navy F/A-18 Pilots Explain Landing Signal Officers
​​​​​​​
Who are Those Guys? Navy F/A-18 Pilots Explain Landing Signal Officers - YouTube

[SpazSinbad]

Japan Coast Guard Issues Salvage Warning in South China Sea as Navy Prepares F-35C Recovery Operations 31 Jan 2022 https://news.usni.org/2022/01/31/japan-coast-guard-issues-salvage-warning-in-south-china-sea-as-navy-prepares-f-35c-recovery-operations
"...It’s unclear what units the Navy will employ to recover the fighter, which could be in waters up to 30,000 feet deep depending on the exact location of where the fighter settled. he Navy has one salvage ship, USNS Salvor (ARS-52), in U.S. 7th Fleet but the Navy has other salvage and recovery systems that could be installed on commercial salvage ships or offshore support vessels."
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1650x1026/f_35ccrashloc_01af0dacfe453d53d0c3a8d48effb8beffd6d5e0.gif
https://news.usni.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Screen-Shot-2022-01-31-at-5.23.36-PM.png

[megan]

going around is that the F-35C pilot had a medical issue then - attempting to get back quicklyOf course we await the report, but one does wonder.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/08/02/house-panel-demands-another-investigation-into-f-35-pilot-breathing-system-problems/

[SpazSinbad]

Most viewers - unless they are really interested in NavAv and can stomach the endless talk of the host MOOCH (rather than allowing his guests to speak) then don't bother with this video. Some interesting tidbits. The 'controlling LSO' was injured during the ramp strike (probably by bits of the breaking undercarriage but just my guess remember). This is a long video so bring a packed lunch and a wee bottle. :}

Was it the Pilot or the Airplane? Veteran Naval Aviators Analyze the Latest F-35 Crash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx0SSS5YUso

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Was it the Pilot or the Airplane? Veteran Naval Aviators Analyze the Latest F-35 Crash[/b]



Three old dudes who appear to know almost nothing about the F-35, and who appear to have done no research on the subject (apparently didn't even check out PPRuNe!), quarterback F-35 mishap. They really should be embarrassed.

[Lonewolf_50]

Pith is a virtue is some cases, and I'm with Ewan insofar as I looked at "this is an hour of what?" so I could not take more than a few minutes before I realized that I will never get that time back.

[stilton]

F/A-18E Super Hornet Landing on the Boat "650 mph approach to carrier break and landing in a F/A-18E Super Hornet. Maneuver referred to by pilots as the "$hit Hot Break"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGkl_voDH7A


Great stuff


Incomprehensible anyone would add such an obnoxious sound track

[SpazSinbad]

Sounds like a generic uboob music soundtrack. Before YouBend was taken over by gargle one could - with flare - add music to otherwise boring videos of yore. So this is my - but I like it - ob nauseous - video with soundtrack. For some reason I cannot fathom gargle cut the last bit of da tool musick (diff trak from same al bum). :}

At 5min 10sec the A4G has a TAXI ONE WIRE which is still kinda scary. Early I think the one that rolls on port drop tank during arrest was put upright to taxi out of the landing area with only minor damage to the tank and the wingtip (got buffed out by the BUFFER). At the start the A4G pilot closing the canopy is the one going into the oggin from a bad catshot. Barry Evans was lucky to NOT have been able to eject as it was calculated he would not have survived but youse see him RESCUED by the HELO to stand upright taking off his flight gear.

RANFAA A4G Skyhawk HMAS Melbourne Early 1970s :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ola6f7jSE

[SpazSinbad]

ex-A4G Side Number 871 (second hand A-4F USN) fifty years ago does the OOPsie in viddy and still flying today with DRAKEN USA.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1522x1050/871oops_957f77787cda0d4fffa3cc0457db54cba3331b0e.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1081/871_draken_img_6302_e01720083234b2eb5d8dd9f66a509597bf106014 .jpg

[sandiego89]

Sounds like a generic uboob music soundtrack. Before YouBend was taken over by gargle one could - with flare - add music to otherwise boring videos of yore. So this is my - but I like it - ob nauseous - video with soundtrack. For some reason I cannot fathom gargle cut the last bit of da tool musick (diff trak from same al bum). :}

At 5min 10sec the A4G has a TAXI ONE WIRE which is still kinda scary. Early I think the one that rolls on port drop tank during arrest was put upright to taxi out of the landing area with only minor damage to the tank and the wingtip (got buffed out by the BUFFER). At the start the A4G pilot closing the canopy is the one going into the oggin from a bad catshot. Barry Evans was lucky to NOT have been able to eject as it was calculated he would not have survived but youse see him RESCUED by the HELO to stand upright taking off his flight gear.

RANFAA A4G Skyhawk HMAS Melbourne Early 1970s :rolleyes:


Cracking video spaz. That catapult track, especially the waist cat, looks very short. What did the stroke feel like? I had heard the short hydraulic cats on the early Essex class were especially brutal. Thanks, Dave

[SpazSinbad]

Waist Cat? There was only one steam catapult aboard HMAS Melbourne. During the early A4G era it was upgraded with some bits from scrapped BONAVENTURE to have a cat stroke of 100 feet with a strop catcher so we see the cat crew running up to the catcher for strop retrieval. I'll post a SLOMO video. Generally the lateral G was 6, sometimes a bit more at more than usual heavier weights etc. The WAR SHOT at 9G (A-4 stressed to this level) was never experienced by a HUman AFAIK but the lead sled CHLOE would have been tested alongside wharf in Sydney Harbour.

A4G Skyhawk & S2E Tracker Slow Motion Deck Ops Tests aboard HMAS Melbourne in Early 1970s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvj4z1pbWSI
_______________________________________

SLOW MOTION Catapults A4Gs 886 & 889

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2UbG7aWrHc
______________________________________

A4G Arrest HMAS Melbourne & Hook Runner Slow Motion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL5eMoBCniY
_____________________________________

NAVY CATAPULT TEST - HMAS MELBOURNE - SOUND [lead sled CHLOE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3ync0LulDY

[SpazSinbad]

Never Fear The Marines Are Here (could not get the 'school' perhaps a typo/misunderstanding by author?)
WHEN KNIGHTS WERE BOLD James Deboer Combat Aircraft Journal March 2022 Volume 22 No 03

The USMC’s ‘Black Knights’ [VMFA-314] have made history by being the first USMC unit to deploy with the F-35C aboard an aircraft carrier. James Deboer reports on their work-up to this great milestone....

“...Landing challenges
The squadron was in the top three for landing grades during its time out at the carrier in July, which is great considering only about a third of the pilots had prior carrier experience.

The Black Knights are happy to be on the ship with some of the newest technology including systems that make it much easier to land on it. Major Ahern told CAJ [Combat Aircraft Journal]: “The ship is obviously challenging flying, but this aircraft is very stable and it’s not a stressful jet to land on the boat, whereas the FA-18C could be.

”We have Delta flight path and that basically couples the flight controls and the motor to the same control logic where you get instantaneous, glideslope response. Even if the jet motor has to school[?], it’s very, very stable. And when you land at the ship, the rate of descent is based on a glide slope of three and a half degrees. So just a little bit steeper than like your normal airliner that’s going to land at an international airport. So that’s how the glide slope is set up. So it’s just way lower stress and honestly a lot safer. The boarding rates have been really high. It’s very rare that someone doesn’t catch a wire, and the drama has kind of gone, which is nice”....”

[SpazSinbad]

'sandiego89' commented: "...That catapult track, especially the waist cat, looks very short. What did the stroke feel like? I had heard the short hydraulic cats on the early Essex class were especially brutal. Thanks, Dave"

Dave, the first cat shot was a shock - like having someone punch your chest will all their strength - took the wind out of my sails that's for sure. Next time I was better prepared but still got the PUNCH at around 6G. I'm told the first cat shots for a nugget/newbie/sprog are extra ooomphy to ensure they have plenty of endspeed (also they are at a light weight for carquals). Plenty of hairy stories about A4G catshots, including the first for the A4G (years earlier a USN A-4B had demonstrated an arrest & catapult off Manila I believe. The USN pilot reaction to the catshot (with extra GO I guess) on radio cannot be repeated here). :}

HMAS Melbourne Aircraft Carrier A4G Skyhawk Era 1967-1984

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8tiU_mZHRk
________________________________________

LCDR Charles W. D. Ward, Jr. First USN A4B landing on HMAS Melbourne - 20 May 1965 (HD)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuU6dP_Irh0

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1675x1076/melbournelexingtoncvndeckcomparoed_31c2e3b4b1227dd8448894a4c ac7c4f3715284a8.gif

[kimono1950]

Looks like the Mel catapult is shorter than the one on the ARA 25 de Mayo.

[SpazSinbad]

Looks like the Mel catapult is shorter than the one on the ARA 25 de Mayo.
True however MELBOURNE had the punch to get the A4G airborne in nil wind tropical temperatures at maximum launch weight with lateral 9G - the 'warshot' - however I think I have mentioned AFAIK no human has experienced that ONLY CHLOE most likely as seen in earlier video.

[Tengah Type]

SpazSinbad # 61

I suggest "School" is actually "Spool" - as in "Spool Up" or increase RPM in a Jet Engine.

[sandiego89]

'sandiego89' commented: "...That catapult track, especially the waist cat, looks very short. What did the stroke feel like? I had heard the short hydraulic cats on the early Essex class were especially brutal. Thanks, Dave"

Dave, the first cat shot was a shock - like having someone punch your chest will all their strength - took the wind out of my sails that's for sure. Next time I was better prepared but still got the PUNCH at around 6G. I'm told the first cat shots for a nugget/newbie/sprog are extra ooomphy to ensure they have plenty of endspeed (also they are at a light weight for carquals). Plenty of hairy stories about A4G catshots, including the first for the A4G (years earlier a USN A-4B had demonstrated an arrest & catapult off Manila I believe. The USN pilot reaction to the catshot (with extra GO I guess) on radio cannot be repeated here). :}



Thanks so much for the replay and schematics. I have always been fascinated about jets operating from the smallish Colossus/Majestic classes. While there were numerous variables, including cat length and performance (some cats received modification, some were more tired than others) , ship speed (and reliability and power by some of the ships), take off, stall and landing speed, launch weight, etc, what do you think was the dodgiest regular jet use aboard these ships? Some candidates, and others?:

A-4 on the Melbourne- short cat. Shortest cat?
A-4 on the 25 De Mayo- longer cat, but perhaps not as well maintained/performing cat, ship speed/boilers tired. Lack of ship speed/wind cited during the Falklands.
Super Entendard on the 25 Mayo, post Falklands the SuE conducted occasional operations. Cat was overhauled, but ship/boilers were still tired. SuE usually heavier than the A-4?
Banshee on the Bonaventure. Believe the Bonaventure had upgrades for larger/heavier aircraft, but the Banshee was heavy and underpowered.
A-4 on Menas Gerias. Ship got a pretty massive upgrade in the 60's, but not sure it was equivalent to the Majestics?

Sea Hawk and Sea Venom likely more straightforward?

[SpazSinbad]

SpazSinbad # 61

I suggest "School" is actually "Spool" - as in "Spool Up" or increase RPM in a Jet Engine.
Yes thought of that but without the UP 'spool' is not so good - one can spool down. Anyway by all reports the F135 does POWER UP/SPOOL UP fast with good acceleration which is most important for carrier landings/WAVE OFFs.

[SpazSinbad]

Thanks so much for the replay and schematics. I have always been fascinated about jets operating from the smallish Colossus/Majestic classes. While there were numerous variables, including cat length and performance (some cats received modification, some were more tired than others) , ship speed (and reliability and power by some of the ships), take off, stall and landing speed, launch weight, etc, what do you think was the dodgiest regular jet use aboard these ships? Some candidates, and others?:

A-4 on the Melbourne- short cat. Shortest cat?
A-4 on the 25 De Mayo- longer cat, but perhaps not as well maintained/performing cat, ship speed/boilers tired. Lack of ship speed/wind cited during the Falklands.
Super Entendard on the 25 Mayo, post Falklands the SuE conducted occasional operations. Cat was overhauled, but ship/boilers were still tired. SuE usually heavier than the A-4?
Banshee on the Bonaventure. Believe the Bonaventure had upgrades for larger/heavier aircraft, but the Banshee was heavy and underpowered.
A-4 on Menas Gerias. Ship got a pretty massive upgrade in the 60's, but not sure it was equivalent to the Majestics?

Sea Hawk and Sea Venom likely more straightforward?
I'm mightily pissed when a long reply seemed to LOCK UP this computer completely before 'submit reply'. Meanwhile this is the VF-805 LSO gouge on the back of his LSO logbook.

I'll attempt to recreate earlier lost reply. The answers to some of the questions may be vaguely answered in the 4.4Gb MEGA PDF here: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/our-history/spazsinbad-a4g/ Please follow download/view directions on that page. My only experience flying the Sea Venom was ashore without an Observer in the right hand seat calling the airspeed in one knot increments during the approach. Visibility over the bulbous nose was atrocious, meaning tight circuits. At the carrier their circuit height was 400 feet with I guess a short straightaway and without an LSO it was ??? Initially in the A4G we followed same height with a level base turn picking up the ball in the mirror about half way around base turn. However our USN trained LSOs managed to convince the greybeards to use NATOPS height of 600 feet, about half way in the first part of our cruise late 1971. It was difficult for me as a newbie to adjust to a descending base turn during the cruise. Hook to ramp clearance in NATOPS minimum is 6.5 feet whereas aboard MELBOURNE it was 6 feet. Generally there were no problems operating at sea with carrier movement except the carrier could wallow a bit. The earlier video shows effect of big swell high wind inside Jervis Bay (near NAS Nowra). The effect at sea outside the bay was worse. My first and only view of a Sea Venom carrier landing from goofers/vultures row was inside JB in similar weather back in mid 1966. The Venom arrested with flight ops called off thereafter. AFAIK the Super Etendard was only TESTED to be found unsuitable.

Forgot some of the many questions... The catapult when working handled the load for sure, however two A4Gs were lost to bad catshots. Cause unknown for the first one with the pilot going into the sea etc. The second & VERY LAST A4G catshot (pilot ejected OK) was caused by cat crew not doing all required checks properly in their haste. One A4G lost to wire break (bad juju under deck) with pilot ejecting OK. There were a few close calls on arrest (details in the MEGA PDF). My only experience is MELBOURNE with my first roller/touch and go deck landings aboard HMS Eagle visiting our east coast Aug 1971. As a sprog/newbie/nugget I had no other DL experience then to allow me to arrest/catapult from EAGLE, unlike other VF-805ers. I recall the deck felt EXTREMELY bumpy (not just arrestor gear) and that carrier looked small (the first time I had seen one from the air) then I got to MELBOURNE. :}

MELBOURNE could trundle to 20 knots but the shipboard experience was something to behold - she rarely needed to go that fast thank goodness. As you can see from the LSO gouge there are limits to WOD for weight however I never experienced any issues at max carrier landing weight of 14.5K lbs.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1680x1050/lsologbookgougevf_805_2d443fd3fcac101830ffddcd4f788b8b2e76c8 c8.gif
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1415x1079/805linebookvenom1stdlcartoon_d7512fc8e13d65936b3cf8aba9af47e fc59a8dc2.gif

[Tengah Type]

Sandiego89

To insert my twopenneth at your query about dodgiest carrier jet I have always admired the Douglas A3 Skywarrier guys/gals.
An enormous aircraft with teenie-weenie engines of 1950s vintage still operating at Gulf War 1 in 1991.
I stress I am not of a Naval Aviator hertitage but have done AAR with them, and thought you have got to have big b***s
to operate that off a teenie weeie boat. (Is it still the heaviest aircraft to be catapulted from a boat?)

[etudiant]

Sandiego89

To insert my twopenneth at your query about dodgiest carrier jet I have always admired the Douglas A3 Skywarrier guys/gals.
An enormous aircraft with teenie-weenie engines of 1950s vintage still operating at Gulf War 1 in 1991.
I stress I am not of a Naval Aviator hertitage but have done AAR with them, and thought you have got to have big b***s
to operate that off a teenie weeie boat. (Is it still the heaviest aircraft to be catapulted from a boat?)

Believe you are quite right, MGTOW 82,000 lbs according to Wikipedia, about a third more than the A5J Vigilante, which I'd have thought would be the runner up.

[SpazSinbad]

NATOPS for RA-3B Skywarrior: https://www.docdroid.net/SqVt2i0/douglas-ra-3b-skywarrior-flight-manual-pdf (103Mb PDF)

https://www.historynet.com/air-force-pilot-flies-navy.htm [scary story indeedy]

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/12/28/this-is-what-happened-when-an-air-force-pilot-got-assigned-to-a-navy-carrier/ [substitute ORANGE for RED in this story]

Bit of a delay whilst uploading some NATOPS 'landing' PDF pages but I don't know what the file size limit is so it is suck it & see.... Now in two parts-1st part FIELD Landing procedures-2nd part CARRIER OPS

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/803x1050/carrier_circuit_douglas_ra_3b_skywarrior_5f8de54fa2f938e84ec cb582e8520e07a0126925.gif

[SpazSinbad]

A-3 HISTORY: https://www.a3skywarrior.com/ready-room/a-3-squadron-history.html

Skywarrior RA-3B NATOPS
WEIGHT LIMITATIONS
The maximum recommended gross weights
are as follows:
a. Field takeoff . . . . . . . 78,000 pounds
b. Field landing . . . . . . . 56, 000 pounds
c. Catapulting . . . . . . . . 73,000 pounds
d. Shipboard and shore-based arrested landings;
touch and go; FCLP . . . . 50,000 pounds

[Minnie Burner]

The French carriers have a triangle at the end of the angled deck. Why, please?

[SpazSinbad]

The French carriers have a triangle at the end of the angled deck. Why, please?
I'd have to fib IF I said anything butt here is a 1Mb JPG of the French Deck with a cropped image of it below: :}
https://external-preview.redd.it/7D4qhpLqpwoP_nQLFK6ohfmpTbFusnAWSeCYbA6KWAg.jpg?auto=webp&aceda16b NOW TINY URL: https://tinyurl.com/bdf6v2v2

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1652x1022/frenchaircraftcarrierwhitedecktrianglezoom_1bc80fe449e0a388e 21aa4f87f47643729b17040.jpg

RAFALE M HUD VIEW Carrier Approach Arrest Charles de Gaulle [white line/TRIANGLE fever?]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZhxLv0PsaI
______________________________________

Carrier Charles de Gaulle, SUPER Etendard Approach From 'the Start' and Trap 'Arrest' WHITE TRIANGLE [short]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fTw-MV4FS8
________________________________

Carrier Charles de Gaulle, Etendard trap [long]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmBmulcUZj0
________________________________

Super Etendard Modernise SEM Carrier Approach Pilot Actions [musick]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Po0-AFXOLg
________________________________

C-2A Greyhound COD Trap FS Charles de Gaulle Mar 2014 [mehican rad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNSROA80UiI

[LateArmLive]

A second video of the crash is now doing the rounds. I won't link it myself because I despise those who leak what should be kept internal, but it certainly shows it in grim detail and puts paid to certain rumours of the cause.

[rattman]

Its up on redit so no point trying to keep it quiet

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/slqklp/leaked_video_not_mine_of_the_f35_crash_on_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

[Herod]

Those fire crews were on the ball, dousing the deck.

[Mogwi]

Ouch! Glad everyone survived that. Such things have ever been a hazard with arrested landings.

Mogwi Snr "arrives" after a ramp-strike caused by engine failure on finals (due to Japanese bullet!) January 6th 1945.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/crash2_6f670ffaf3bef1acdf690cb679a52f590584506a.jpg

The dent was still there when Indefatigable was scrapped 11 years later.

[unmanned_droid]

Its up on redit so no point trying to keep it quiet

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/slqklp/leaked_video_not_mine_of_the_f35_crash_on_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Yes, the cable is off the hook for this one...

[SpazSinbad]

Fairly accurate description of the PLAT (probably called something else these days) video: https://theaviationist.com/2022/02/06/f-35c-ramp-strike-video-leaked-online/

VIDEO about ILARTS no longer available but may be somewhere else?
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu822BsBi-I [without the HAITCH 'cause it ain't there] :}

PLAT [pilot landing assistance television] tape - now ILARTS [Integrated Launch and Recovery Television Surveillance]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1680x1050/ilartsindications_2a51b149200a026cf93a0c6aaf7d8cff2b75024a.g if

[SpazSinbad]

EXTERMINATE EXTERMINATE EXTERMINATE USN Blackshoe equivalent to WAVE OFF WAVE OFF WAVE OFF!
Navy Investigating Leaked Footage of F-35C Lightning II Ramp Strike 07 Feb 2022
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/07/navy-investigating-leaked-footage-of-f-35c-lightning-ii-ramp-strike
"...While the Navy has released few official details about the ramp strike, the service did not order advisories or warnings to the fleet on technical aspects of the F-35 and its landing system nor did it call for a safety stand down like the service has done following other aviation accidents...."

[RAFEngO74to09]

Analysis from former USN aviators here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma_nEqBdLSA

[tartare]

So... at the risk of incurring the wrath of the `wait for the investigation' crowd - what does the hive mind think may have happened here?
Could this have been an incorrectly flown approach?
That would seem hard to believe given how capable anyone flying a $100m jet should be...
Or some sort of power degradation, or weird microburst thing off the back of the deck at the last second?
Just curious...

[RAFEngO74to09]

So... at the risk of incurring the wrath of the `wait for the investigation' crowd - what does the hive mind think may have happened here?
Could this have been an incorrectly flown approach?
That would seem hard to believe given how capable anyone flying a $100m jet should be...
Or some sort of power degradation, or weird microburst thing off the back of the deck at the last second?
Just curious...
There is a lot in their earlier video on the same channel regarding how carrier landing training & qualification has been dumbed down following huge incremental improvements in the degree of automation of the carrier landing procedure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx0SSS5YUso

With the F-4 and F-14, it was pretty much all pilot skill with constant control adjustments - from the F/A-18 onwards, the degree of automation has been vastly increased leading to a completely different prioritisation of the information the pilot is scanning.
They all agree there is something badly wrong with the approach - which could have been caused by any of / a combination of the following:
- Out of parameters by so great a margin that automatic systems did not take over correctly.
- Failure of the automatic systems and the pilot failing to notice and react in time or noticing and having insufficient time to react.
- Spool up time on the engine when Mil Power applied.
- Helmet information problem.
Note in the PLAT video how the Wave Off signal "W" has been activated before the LSO can even finish shouting Power for the first time as it is going badly wrong so quickly.

[tartare]

Wow.
So the children of the magenta line are now slamming jets onto decks as well.
Crikey...

[SpazSinbad]

A lot to ponder. Firstly the video from HOOK 2014 demonstrates 'how quickly things can go pear-shaped' when the auto throttle is mistakenly 'clicked out' [deactivated] whilst this senior pilot (but NOT very current in the F-18E at night) has to eject because the aircraft becomes so UNDER powered in the groove. Note how the LSO goes from Power to WAVE OFF. Pilot rescued by helo OK.

Hook 2014 PLAT/ILARTS Night Eject F-18E Super Hornet Approach USS CARL VINSON Pilot Rescued OK HELO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbdTeVaVHR0

[SpazSinbad]

As noted in the WARD CARROLL video above there was no grounding of F-35Cs so it is likely a 'pilot problem' not a 'system' problem. The F135 spools up fine but when actuated too late from a very low RPM it may take longer than usual. The Pilot may have been slow to react to the LSO calls also. The LSO may have been slow (recall the video LSO 'HOZER' says often the 'controlling LSO' is under training). The supervisor LSO may have actuated WAVE OFF lights as the control LSO gets to verbalise it. Because it is a shorter than usual straight away (Groove) perhaps the pilot missed setting up PLM Precision Landing Mode properly or opted to just use AUTO throttles (which he did not actuate?) thus ending up, once he lined up, perhaps a little high but going down with lower than usual RPM which he thought would be picked up by auto throttle when nose raised. Thus he was in the spud locker with LOW RPM - LOW in close - being lowered more perhaps by the burble - not reacting quick enough to the situation including LSO calls - to wind up in a RAMPstrike (which may have been a very hard landing before reaching the wires (when an arrest made whilst landing before No.1 wire this is called a TAXI ONE) - I find it difficult to say one way or tuther). Recall these are just my guesses from very limited information about the accident. I'll guess once investigations complete that the USN will be more forthcoming than usual about this F-35C loss due to the amount of material about it already online. Enquiring minds want to KNOW.

[golder]

I'm wondering if it was a practice, manual landing. It would also explain why the system didn't land it.

[tartare]

Poor gal or guy.
Can't even imagine the `oh Jesus, fvck!' feeling as the throttle was firewalled to mil power.
And the shock while swinging under the chute.

[SpazSinbad]

I'm wondering if it was a practice, manual landing. It would also explain why the system didn't land it.
What is a 'practice, manual landing'?

[SpazSinbad]

Thankfully this detailed (but old) article is still online. Must admit to not remembering a lot of it (why? because I ain't gonna be flyin' the C anytime soon). So there is a button on the stick which may have been inadvertantly deselected but as usual I can only GUESS.

Tailored to Trap 01 Dec 2012 Frank Colucci http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/military/Tailored-to-Trap_77964.html
"“F-35C control laws give Navy pilots Integrated Direct Lift Control for easier carrier landings, and they open the door for future landing aids.

Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) test pilots in July [2012] began using an Integrated Direct Lift Control (IDLC) scheme meant to improve approach performance and reduce pilot workload in carrier landings. Tailored control responses in part differentiate the carrier-based F-35C from its runway [F-35A] and small-deck [F-35B] siblings. Lockheed Martin test pilot Dan Canin at Patuxent River Naval Air Test Center, Maryland, explained, “What IDLC does is improve the flight path response of the airplane, allowing the pilot to make almost instantaneous corrections to glideslope while maintaining a constant angle of attack.” “The landing approach in the F-35C is flown with the stick only,” noted Canin. “The throttle is automatic.”... [Don't know if it is possible to 'manually control the 'thrust request']

...…“With IDLC, we change the symmetric deflection of the flaps and the ailerons in response to pitch and throttle commands by the pilot. The glideslope response is immediate, and doesn’t require a speed or alpha change. This is a tremendous advantage over a stiff-wing airplane.”….

…“It’s an integral part of the flight control system and responds to the pilot’s normal stick and throttle movements, without requiring a separate control.” The flight control system also compensates for the pitching moments induced by the lifting surface deflections — F-35C ailerons pitch the airplane on approach almost as much as the big horizontal stabilizers — to maintain the proper angle of attack.

IDLC is commanded by an Approach Mode Control button on the F-35 active inceptor stick. “You really could have done this with any other airplane,” acknowledged Canin, “but the implementation would have been more complicated.” He added, “It’s easier and cleaner to do this with a flight control system that’s naturally a pitch-rate-command system.

...All three variants of the F-35 provide some measure of IDLC. “Glideslope is always important,” observed Canin. “Anything you can do to improve flight path control on approach is a good thing. Waveoff performance is also improved with IDLC, since it can stop or reduce your rate of descent while you’re waiting for the engine to spool up.”

The IDLC function is not identical in all the three F-35 variants, however. “The IDLC gain is much higher in the C-model than the other two,” said Canin. “We only have one release of software for the three variants. It configures itself when it wakes up and discovers which type of F-35 it’s in.” The F-35B does not use IDLC at all in jetborne (vertical landing) mode, when aerodynamic control surfaces are fixed.

Even with its innovative flight controls, the F-35C, from the pilot’s perspective, is relatively conventional coming aboard the carrier. “Determining where you are with respect to lineup and glideslope is all visual,” acknowledged Canin. “For lineup, you look at the ship and line up on centerline … easy enough if the ship’s heading is steady, but tricky if the ship is wallowing,” noted Canin. “As for glideslope, you have to watch the meatball and see small deviations. Then you have to put the ball back in the middle, with the right rate of descent so it stays there. None of that’s changed with this airplane, but what we’re giving the pilot is more responsiveness and bandwidth to do that.”..."
_____________________________

DFP quotes from DOT&E report 2016: http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/ FY2016/pdf/dod/2016f35jsf.pdf
"...The VFA-101 pilots reported that the Delta Flight Path mode of operation made carrier approaches easier on pilot workload and touchdown points more consistent. During the qualifications, pilots made 154 approaches and landings with 100 percent boarding rate and no bolters…."
______________________________

"...The JSF, in a low speed approach to a carrier landing, will descend at about 11 fps [seen on the ILARTS screen low right corner], and will withstand sink rates up to almost 18 fps. By comparison, the typical sink rate for an Air Force JSF will be about two ft/sec.... The Navy JSF currently flies landing approaches at about 130 to 135 knots, about 25 knots slower than the Air Force version....”
http://machinedesign.com/article/the-joint-strike-fighter-a-plane-for-all-reasons-0307 [2002]

[golder]

What is a 'practice, manual landing'?
I would say a practicing a manual landing is. So as if the auto system goes down, the jet can be landed. I'll assume they could need to stay carrier qualified in that.

[dead_pan]

Watching the leaked footage of the crash it was miraculous the F35 went straight down the flight deck and didn't veer after that mega bounce. Could have been sooo much worse, given how crowded the deck was at the time.

[BEagle]

Personally it looked to me like a sudden and total loss of thrust......

[Easy Street]

Personally it looked to me like a sudden and total loss of thrust......

The sound from the first leaked video (taken with a smartphone from the fantail) disproves that idea. Engine noise normal throughout and clearly spooling up during the final couple of seconds.

[SpazSinbad]

Personally it looked to me like a sudden and total loss of thrust......
When? The F135 engine was 'spooling up'. I thought I heard the 'HOWL' as it goes into burner just before the smoke in the first video from the fantail view. Yes it is puzzling I think because we do not have details of the accident. One day we may see a report. [OK now I see the other reply to 'beagle' as I replied here]

Just to add: after lining up I think I see the smoke from the engine disappear and the smoke does not appear again until we hear the engine revving up as noted by 'easy street'.

[42go]

Beagle - I would recommend "Personally it looked to me like" insufficient thrust?

[RatherBeFlying]

The sink rate once lined up is severe; so, how did it develop and what was the pilot doing about it once perceived (timely or delayed)? How was the airframe and engine responding to the pilot inputs?

So if the approach suddenly deteriorates past recoverable, would it help to bank away to miss the carrier and crew before ejecting? Perhaps recovery would have been possible before hitting the water, but with that sink rate it didn't look likely.

[typerated]

Hard to judge without seeing a normal approach.
But it does seem slow - is it effectively stalling on? - power just to late to save?

One interesting thing I saw was watching a violent movement of the stabilator just before touch down - and it was a pitch forward - why?

[RAFEngO74to09]

Normal landing of an F-35C

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STVAM85y3i0

[SpazSinbad]

Yes the digital fly by wire flight controls with DFP work their magic overtime sometimes. One may consider large movements as the aircraft powers through the burble (turbulence mostly created by the island but also the deck) behind the carrier. Some of the many videos available below.

F-35C Aileron Flaperon IDLC FCLP Demo [very good flaperoonie action]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZu-sqEo5hE
________________________________________

F-35C Carrier Landing Arrest USS Nimitz Nov 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxQIaCv9o1U
________________________________________

F-35C DT II First Arrests 02 Oct '15 IKE SLOWMO HALF AGAIN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_csu9Z8LfeU
________________________________________

X-35C & F-35C FCLP & Arrests NIMITZ Nov 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsHcFQTzwQg

[tartare]

Peripheral but related question - and I realise outcomes can vary according to circumstances.
I'm prompted to ask by the references to `career-ending'.
If one crashes a jet, but doesn't kill anyone else and is ruled by a board of inquiry to be responsible through negligence - broadly what happens?
Does a court martial follow - and then a discharge from the respective service?
If that happens - is it dishonorable?
Or do you remain simply get transferred to some lowly, obscure non-flying role?
Do you lose rank?
The black mark would hang over you.
I'm thinking of that pilot... there are a lot of rumours circulating that it was one of the young women inducted to fly the F-35.
If so, I can only imagine the scorn circulating in some parts of the Navy.
Even if it was a pilot cockup - I hope these days there'd be a degree of support while the process was unfolding - as a proud professional military aviator regardless of gender- you'd feel absolutely devastated.

[etudiant]

Peripheral but related question - and I realise outcomes can vary according to circumstances.
I'm prompted to ask by the references to `career-ending'.
If one crashes a jet, but doesn't kill anyone else and is ruled by a board of inquiry to be responsible through negligence - broadly what happens?
Does a court martial follow - and then a discharge from the respective service?
If that happens - is it dishonorable?
Or do you remain simply get transferred to some lowly, obscure non-flying role?
Do you lose rank?
The black mark would hang over you.
I'm thinking of that pilot... there are a lot of rumours circulating that it was one of the young women inducted to fly the F-35.
If so, I can only imagine the scorn circulating in some parts of the Navy.
Even if it was a pilot cockup - I hope these days there'd be a degree of support while the process was unfolding - as a proud professional military aviator regardless of gender- you'd feel absolutely devastated.

Not a carrier pilot, but would think that you're doomed to a career on shore after such an event.
The aircraft cost some $100MM, more than 10x what the pilot makes in his/her lifetime and there are hordes of eager replacements.
In war time, when there is a shortage of pilots, it might be different, but now it is just a belated wash out.

[mangere1957]

I was under the impression that cables are lifed by age and number of pulls (landings into an individual pendant) and visually checked for gross damage after each use. If you are going to nearly always have 3-wire landings this would not change the pendants' life but the Head Badger might want to shuffle them around to get some wear from the others.

I wonder if this is a late life cable that has received an in limits but off-centerline pull?
N
Bengo the cables don't matter much when you've hit the rounddown and wiped off the LG

[SpazSinbad]

Navy’s MAGIC CARPET Simplifies Carrier Landings; Interim Fielding This Fall [Jun 2016]
https://news.usni.org/2016/06/30/navys-magic-carpet-simplifies-carrier-landings-interim-fielding-fall
"...Kindley said the average pilot makes 200 to 300 corrections in the final 18 seconds before landing. With MAGIC CARPET, test data showed the first-timers making about 20 corrections while flying on the ball, with that figure dropping below 10 once the pilots got used to the system...."

The Burble Effect: Superstructure and Flight Deck Effects on Carrier Air Wake [2010]
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA527798.pdf (0.5Mb)

"The purpose of the present work was to qualitatively and quantitatively model the air wake created by an aircraft carrier flight deck and superstructure in order to understand how it affects aircraft on approach and landing. The “burble effect” is the name given by navy pilots to the velocity deficit and downwash field immediately aft of an aircraft carrier. This turbulent region of air has adverse effects on landing aircraft and can cause pilots to bolter, missing the arresting wires and requiring another landing attempt...."

...D. Discussion/Conclusion
It is important to note that the study conducted on the effect of the fillets on the deck/hull vortex was conducted at a length of two feet behind the carrier. As previously stated, this length corresponds to distance of 380 feet aft of a real, full-scale carrier. Even at this distance, the vortex and burble appeared relatively intact. Due to equipment and wind tunnel mounting restraints, it was not possible to analyze the deck/hull vortex and burble effect immediately over and aft of the flight deck. The deck/hull vortex appears to be “sucked” upwards through the “notch” in the back of the carrier flight deck and subsequently rolls downstream behind the carrier. The addition of the large fillet drastically appears to reduce the intensity of the deck/hull vortex, even at a full-scale distance of 380 feet. Therefore, it would appear to be beneficial to fill in the “notch” in the back, port corner of the flight deck on aircraft carriers. Not only would this fillet reduce the deck/hull vortex and prevent it from rushing up and over the landing/approach area, but it would also provide room for aircraft and/or equipment storage. The burble effect is caused by multiple factors such as free stream velocity deficits, upwash and downwash, and vortices that are generated from the superstructure and the deck/hull. All of these various aspects of the burble combine to produce the increased sink rate on approach that has been described by many carrier pilots. Additionally, an aircraft carrier’s superstructure and flight deck geometry both contribute to the burble effect. Since Nimitz class carrier construction has ended and Ford class carrier construction has just begun, the potential exists for future carriers to be designed such that the burble effect becomes reduced."

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1630x1050/burblemodelcvn_7ce4e9655884ad2dc21e5bc9b1912004469b3198.jpg

FILLET to reduce THE BURBLE? - Shifley Lecture USS Ford Class

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcYvy2h8Lhc

[SpazSinbad]

USS Carl Vinson Recovered Quickly After F-35C Ramp Strike, Say Officials 15 Feb 2022
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/15/uss-carl-vinson-recovered-quickly-after-f-35c-ramp-strike-say-officials
"...After replacing the four arresting wires 30 to 45 minutes following the crash, the carrier was quickly ready to recover aircraft again, according to a defense official. “When the mishap happened, we had additional aircraft airborne that needed to land. So the training kicked in immediately. And I was in awe watching … everybody on the flight deck – including the air wing personnel – respond to that emergency because we had to replace all four wires. We had to pick up things off the flight deck so that we could clear the [landing area] to clear all the [foreign object debris],” the official said. With USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72) operating near Vinson, the aircraft waiting to land aboard Vinson landed and refueled on Lincoln while the crew cleared Vinson’s flight deck after the crash...."

[CAEBr]

The account initially says that there were aircraft waiting to land at the time of the incident, but later notes they all landed on Lincoln and refuelled. That must have been a fairly early call as the Vinson's crew would be aware of the sort of time needed to change all the cables and clean up. That being the case, would it not have been better to take a bit longer to do the job and all the checks rather than an F1 pitstop type approach. Also what about using some time to debrief the DLO and his colleagues to take any learning from the incident - eg early wave off of similar approach before it all goes bad ?

[Two's in]

Not a carrier pilot, but would think that you're doomed to a career on shore after such an event.
The aircraft cost some $100MM, more than 10x what the pilot makes in his/her lifetime and there are hordes of eager replacements.
In war time, when there is a shortage of pilots, it might be different, but now it is just a belated wash out.

That's why the outcome of the investigation is crucial, but it's hard to see a scenario where 'negligence' is a factor. You might have Human Factors in play that used to be tarred with the "Pilot Error" brush - e.g Training - Recency, etc. but as with any aircraft landing, nobody is more incentivized to get it right than the person on the controls. The only difference with a carrier landing is all other options to getting it 100% right have been removed. The cost of the accident/damage is only ever a factor if somebody has royally screwed up, as in actual negligence or culpable behavior. The military has plenty of successful careers littered with very expensive mistakes and mishaps, but no-one is getting billed for a $100M jet, whatever the reason it went in. As for the pilot, it's always cheaper to refresh and retrain than replace, depending of course on what happened on the day.

[sycamore]

SPAZ,looking at the videos,especally the `fantail`,from lineup,in the groove,(or ditch),wings-level ,at approx 350 ft(guess) ,to passing overhead,it is about 10-11 seconds.The centreline camera only shows approx 5-6 seconds before the crash.To
me it appears that is a very short turn/lineup/too tight( at a nominal GRD/Spd of 130KTS,about 1/3 of a mile.Other aircraft (F18) appear to have a final in the `groove ` of about 18-20 seconds/3/4 nm...
There is in one of those u-tube videos a video of an Etendard pilot,working his nuts off coming aboard the CdG .. !!...
And ,yes,I have deck-landed many times.....but only after a short hover... usually..

[SpazSinbad]

Thanks 'sycamore' it is difficult to judge times from videos when one does not know supporting details. USN LSOs usually have stated in the past that a carrier approach starts 'when it starts' not just when aircraft is at 'call the ball' which may occur before wings level and aircraft lined up IF on a short straightaway. Many variables are at play. Things will be clear when we have voice comms between pilot & LSO and more video footage. The approach generally is graded BEFORE 'call the ball' whilst 'a good start' is essential they say and to me it seems from LIMITED EVIDENCE my guess is the ramp chap DID NOT HAVE A GOOD START but what do I know. Yeah right. Meanwhile here is another view of the aftermath: Carrier Carl Vinson was back in fighting condition within 45 minutes of F-35C crash, leaders say (defensenews.com) (https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2022/02/16/carrier-carl-vinson-was-back-in-fighting-condition-within-45-minutes-of-f-35c-crash-leaders-say/)

[SpazSinbad]

The account initially says that there were aircraft waiting to land at the time of the incident, but later notes they all landed on Lincoln and refuelled. That must have been a fairly early call as the Vinson's crew would be aware of the sort of time needed to change all the cables and clean up. That being the case, would it not have been better to take a bit longer to do the job and all the checks rather than an F1 pitstop type approach. Also what about using some time to debrief the DLO and his colleagues to take any learning from the incident - eg early wave off of similar approach before it all goes bad ?
I don't believe there is enough public information to know why events after happened as described. I would like to know what is: "...an F1 pitstop type approach..." and where it was? I'll assume DLO means 'Deck Landing Officer' which you really mean to be LSO Landing Signals Officer. Earlier it was explained that the 'controlling LSO' may have been under training with his/her experienced LSO monitoring with access to devices to also monitor the approach. IF one thinks the W flashing on the ILARTS video happens BEFORE the WAVE OFF radio call by the controlling LSO then IF THAT is the case it is likely the supervisor LSO hit the WAVE OFF button to cause RED LIGHTS to flash on the IFLOLS Improved Fresnel Lens Optical Landing System (it is not really Fresnel Lens now but that is how it is named from previous original FLOLS). There are advisory and mandatory LSO calls to the approaching pilot. WAVE OFF is MANDATORY and must be obeyed instantly. Not having been a burner pilot I did not catch the BURNER BURNER call by the LSO after the WAVE OFF so I'll guess this is also mandatory. Yes the LSO crowd are a critical bunch not only of pilots but themselves so they will have watched the videos and debriefed to the nth degree. They will want to hear the pilot side of the story also. LSOs are easy to make fun of however they have saved many a pilot/aircraft in dire situations by having the experience and pilot trust to obey their calls or advice. In days of yore the RN LSOs used the term 'on the roger' to indicate during the approach sometimes and during pilot debriefs that the aircraft is on glideslope on speed & lined up correctly. LSO Debrief HMS Eagle 'On The Roger' 1968

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P9trtMnq0E
_______________________________________

And to think early jets Deck Landed on Axial Deck Carriers under control of the LSO armed with PADDLES.

LSO Paddles Banshee FCLP 1948

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBB-92PoS8s
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1632x1050/bansheeflatapproachoriskany_6074a88b80281c0d5bd793edc9864397 50800765.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

My short excerpt from this longer clip has been removed from Uboob for UNK reasons known only to fwits there. Meanwhile LSO fun:

[LSOs Doan Impres Me Much Satire Song FULL VIDEO] Women of USS RONALD REAGAN (CVN 76)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsnlO-hpc_8

[visibility3miles]

Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?”

Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…

Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky. Then again, that adds an additional problem if the retractable windshield fails to retract.

Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.

[SpazSinbad]

Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?” Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist… Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.
This post above points to how work goes into this problem for the FORD class:
https://www.pprune.org/11182311-post105.html
Otherwise online there will be plenty of PDFs about this problem of the burble and what to do about it in the past - present info difficult to find. When JPALS becomes fully operational for the F-35C to carry out auto deck landings with extreme precision then as mentioned it may become the way to recover the and subsequent aircraft. However at moment as mentioned earlier JPALS is intended for night, rough weather (which often occurs at night with low cloud/poor visibiility) and so on. Reducing carrier landing accidents has been a feature of the gradual and safer development of such things over the last century in the USN (and other navies by the by). The introduction of the mirror, angled decks devised by the RN made an incredible difference to landings until the present. People have complained about the USN slow changes to Aviation ops - but IS IT SAFE!?

IS IT SAFE IS IT SAFE IS IT SAFE Marathon Man Horror Question

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr2CjFwNRPo

[Bengo]

Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?”

Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…

Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky. Then again, that adds an additional problem if the retractable windshield fails to retract.

Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.

The capability of computational fluid dynamics to handle these things is increasing steadily, as computer power grows. Nonetheless it involves trying to solve the Navier Stokes equations- 3 interrelated partial differential equations- over a significant period of time and a substantial space. That is serious number-crunching- as hard as designing modern VSTOL aircraft. Like a lot of engineering, the answer you get also depends on the assumptions at the input. As a result the 'answer' to modelling whether it is CFD for shipbuilders, CFD for weather men or CFD for architects and builders is a range of outcomes of varying probability. The model with 100% probability does not exist.

After that you finalise by including all the other constraints and 'wants', expecting to get something that will not be perfect, but that should be acceptable to a minimum standard pilot on the approach.

Then you can build and try a wind tunnel model to see what that tells you. Often it tells you nowt, for good engineering and physics reasons.

Then you build a war canoe, and do what Spaz has pointed to, to see what you got. Finally you put a calibrated test pilot into an aircraft and get him/her to go look at it for real.

Magic Carpet, and follow on systems are an attempt to tackle the problem from the other end. Build something that can cope with the conditions behind your carrier, whatever they are likely to be.
As a side benefit you get a bigger potential pool of carrier pilots, because they don't have to be able to fly the meatball in any conditions.
N

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?”

Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…

Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky.

Or, they could just land from the other end?

[SpazSinbad]

Or, they could just land from the other end?
The Doors - The End - THIS IS THE END


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Agb47sO1QE
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x760/this_is_the_end_title_48a851017d983e83dc39c520a8669e0857ea32 21.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1615x1050/if_you_can_read_this_add_power_1f56ce776272acc94542c1cd6d2ba cd1c9b5f639.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

UPDATED: 4 Chiefs, Ensign Facing Charges Over Release of USS Carl Vinson F-35C Crash Video
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/17/four-chiefs-facing-charges-over-release-video-of-f-35c-crash-on-uss-carl-vinson

[Two's in]

UPDATED: 4 Chiefs, Ensign Facing Charges Over Release of USS Carl Vinson F-35C Crash Video
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/17/four-chiefs-facing-charges-over-release-video-of-f-35c-crash-on-uss-carl-vinson

Well, you didn't need a mind-reading stage act to see this coming. Not quite sure how you get to E7/E8 and not understand consequences like this.

[SLXOwft]

As usual only the benefits of smartphones and similar devices seem to have been taken into account, e.g. they can be used to navigate around the ship and locate other personnel, and they are essential for recruitment and retention - the current generation won't serve with out constant connectivity with their loved ones.

Is that thing on your wrist service issue?
No, sir.
Remove it, if I see it again when you are on watch:) it'll get a float test.

Personally, I think today's generation is just like mine in wanting to push the boundaries, however given a good rationale they will obey the rules.

[John Eacott]

Or, they could just land from the other end?

Easy-peasy....

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1791x1208/eagle_from_aft_facing_landing_140_3_spot_4db78ab88eac447984e 1d501a7a4c4a200ae185d.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

:8 FIFY (Fixed It For You) /eagle_from_Daft_facing_landing_140_3_spot_4.jpg :}

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1627x1050/eaglelookingdaft_edc0eef6525b2a1a8ac5a0ea687bd152b56c96cb.jp g

[SpazSinbad]

F-35C DT-I USS NIMITZ 2014 DFP Delta Flight Path Tests [who knows what happened for ramp strike?]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_VjIvqUwMQ

[megan]

Originally Posted by tartare View Post (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/644821-f-35c-accident-uss-carl-vinson-6.html#post11182257)
Peripheral but related question - and I realise outcomes can vary according to circumstances.
I'm prompted to ask by the references to `career-ending'.
If one crashes a jet, but doesn't kill anyone else and is ruled by a board of inquiry to be responsible through negligence - broadly what happens?
Does a court martial follow - and then a discharge from the respective service?
If that happens - is it dishonorable?
Or do you remain simply get transferred to some lowly, obscure non-flying role?
Do you lose rank?
The black mark would hang over you.
I'm thinking of that pilot... there are a lot of rumours circulating that it was one of the young women inducted to fly the F-35.
If so, I can only imagine the scorn circulating in some parts of the Navy.
Even if it was a pilot cockup - I hope these days there'd be a degree of support while the process was unfolding - as a proud professional military aviator regardless of gender- you'd feel absolutely devastated.Could depend, Ernie Christensen flew the F-4 in the #4 position for the Blue Angels, made an unintentional gear up landing (ie forgot the wheels) and ejected at an air show, so the crowd got their monies worth. he went on to be Commanding Office for TOPGUN, the USS Kansas City, and the USS Ranger amongst others and retired in 1997. Today, Christensen is open to sharing his experience, as he wants it to be used as a learning for future aviators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os6p3qgT-68

[tartare]

That is quite a story.
I'd just assumed that if you pranged a jet due to demonstrable pilot error - you were toast.

[megan]

Some take the view that when you've just spent all that money on an individuals education why get rid of him/her.

[Ascend Charlie]

Plenty of people have done wheels-ups and stayed in the service. One of the more famous was a Mirage at Melbourne, luckily skooching along on big jug fuel tanks. Perhaps it helped that Daddy was an Air Commodore, though...

[SpazSinbad]

EMPTY DROPS are better'n NO drops that's for sure MIRACLE STORY 1974 : QAM - The Last Landing of Mirage A3-16 (http://www.qam.com.au/qam-content/aircraft/mirage/wheels-up.htm)
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x369/miraclewheels_upemptydropstullamarine1974_74ef18cb02d729d074 ab7b6e6244b63ee620b920.jpg

Then due to port wheel loss touch and going aboard MELBOURNE 887 empty drop tank skidded AMBERLEY 1978 - pilot Barry Evans rec'd an Air Force Cross for his stirling efforts that day.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1617x1050/887a4g150galemptydroptankbadwheelslandingamberley1978_ecaaa3 6a1e5efe7d0a93d2f272bb3993884ac879.jpg

Then yours TRULLy managed 300 gal short field at night arrest drop tank landing NAS Nowra after rampstrike late 1971.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1623x1050/885a4gaftermathrampstrikenightbrokenwheels1971_2aba5136909aa 9c765bcd29a8b338631adca7b67.jpg

A few months later at NAS Barbers Point, Hawaii 887 on a foamed runway short field arrested on 300 gal empty tanks after wheels broke (long story). Sadly only a VF-805 Line Book page survives made by 'miscreant' who went on to be the LAST A4G CO (VC-724) with yours truLLY btm left of da page. :}

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1350x1050/887a4gbarberspoint1971emptydroparrestbrokenwheels_8c1caacbc0 6db99dfa15a41697a4642e6573031b.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

The 'LAST A4G CO' John Hamilton also received an Air Force Cross for other exploits - meanwhile BAZZA explains:

MELBOURNE A4G 887 Loses Port Wheel Leut Evans 22 May 1978

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6OP8L_M9ug

[tartare]

Interesting stories Spaz and others.
Had always thought that without exceptions the military would deal with you swiftly and ruthlessly if you bent a jet - clearly wrong.

[SpazSinbad]

Consequences for this 'senior USAF F-35A pilot' - ejecting after a bad landing at night at EGLIN AFB a few years ago - are unknown however I was surprised that the USAF accident report noted (amongst many other reasons why the pilot/aircraft crashed) the pilot did not look at the airspeed once [however he usually used an alternate method but was distracted by 'other factors'] during the approach (he left the 'airspeed hold' at about 200 KIAS when the landing airspeed is about 150 KIAS) thus landing too fast with many other bad effects from such a high airspeed. I'll guess he is still in the USAF. Read all about it here: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/09/14/what-does-air-force-do-trashed-f-35-turn-it-training-tool.html [aircraft was actually broken up to be used as training aids once bits made safe]

F-35A - 58TH FIGHTER SQUADRON - 33RD FIGHTER WING - EGLIN AFB, FLORIDA 19 May 2020

https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads/2020/10/Eglin-AFB-F35A-AIB-Report_Signed.pdf (0.9Mb)

[T28B]

A word of a caution to those still serving: be careful of what you post on social media.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/02/18/five-sailors-charged-f35c-crash-video-leak.html?ESRC=navy-a_220223.nl
It appears that five members of the USS Carl Vinson's crew are facing charges.

[abdunbar]

That's why the outcome of the investigation is crucial, but it's hard to see a scenario where 'negligence' is a factor.

Oh, I could see several. Still not enough info to say. How fast was the aircraft in the break? Did the ship call the break? If there are aircraft in the pattern and/or the deck is foul, it is not unusual for the ship to call your break. But if left to your own "judgement" The **** hot break is to break at the fantail, at high speed. This gives you, depending on the G's and speed a possibly wider and faster abeam, You are supposed to be "on speed" when downwind and abeam the stern. If you are not , and are still decelerating in the turn from abeam, you are outside of normal procedure and in the "**** hot" zone. Depending on your CO, you are a hero if it works, goat if it doesn't. The concept of stabilized approach was preached in the Navy before the airlines joined that bandwagon. An LSO can (in the daytime) easily tell if you are on speed at the ball call, on final, without reference to any electronics. Every airplane has unique references, for example the amount of space visible between the trailing edge of the wing and the stab. This reference is a method of seeing angle of attack from the deck. If an LSO allows a pilot to continue towards the ship when grossly un-stabilized then he would share in responsibility.

OCCAMS RAZOR says, perfectly good airplane trashed. If the pilot was known to be in some way compromised, he would have been straight in and the LSO platform would not have been so crowded. If the aircraft systems were malfunctioning the pilot would sense it, unless todays pilots have lost that ability due to automation. But I do not think that anyone could be that casual about coming aboard. Even with automation engaged, the person riding the jet would be hyper aware deviations from normal. I think that the pilot would still sense and be uncomfortable with an un-stabilized aircraft on final. Yes power setting varies with configuration, gross weight and wind over the deck but it is not that wide of a range This seems like for some reason people were pushing the envelope. There could be many who share responsibility. Ship and squadron failing to promote responsible behavior. LSO's and pilots in the **** hot mode.

Interestingly, the Navy has been allowed to bury their accident reports. They are available to people within the Navy and I am sure to government administrators and elected officials who have a need to know but the reports are not available to the public. The Air Force makes all of their accident reports available to the public.

[SpazSinbad]

'abdunbar' said: "...Interestingly, the Navy has been allowed to bury their accident reports. They are available to people within the Navy and I am sure to government administrators and elected officials who have a need to know but the reports are not available to the public. The Air Force makes all of their accident reports available to the public."
It seems the USN [have published ship collision reports] especially Naval Aviation Safety Culture has changed somewhat - being less public with any information - the old days of APPROACH (USN NavAv Safety) magazine confessions seem to be LONG GONE. <sigh>

Editorial: Truth and Consequences 17 Feb 2022 Tobias Naegele
https://www.airforcemag.com/article/editorial-truth-and-consequences/
"Any good information operator knows that truth wins over lies. But even truth can lose its power in the face of overwhelming doubt. Under Vladimir Putin, doubt may be Russia’s most valuable export. Russia’s recipe for misinformation stirs together one part truth, three parts whopper, then puts it all on a low simmer, fan on, until the stench permeates the internet. It works.

Consider this recent incident. When a U.S. Navy F-35C crashed in the South China Sea, someone on board leaked video and images of the jet’s ill-fated wobbly approach, its fiery collision with the deck of the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, and its crash into the sea. As is normal, [SADLY] the Navy said little about the crash, leaving an opportunity for mischief. Fake news purveyors quickly produced a backstory in which the pilot allegedly complained of chest pains and cursed his COVID-19 vaccination just before punching out. Amplified by a few social media posts, the story spread. Within 24 hours, well-meaning, retired general officers were wondering if it might actually be true.

The false story was built on a foundation of disconnected truths. The plane really did crash; evidence really was leaked from aboard the Vinson; the military really does require COVID-19 vaccines; myocarditis is a real, if rare, adverse effect of mRNA vaccines....

...Be a good intelligence officer. Weigh the value of each source. Decide what to discount. Like a passenger in a canoe, leaning too far right or left leaves you wet all over. A lone source will almost inevitably lead to an unbalanced story...."

[SpazSinbad]

Naval Aviation Safety not mentioned in this PR text I guess with lots of boiler plate feel good platitudes but it is a start I suppose....
Navy Formally Stands Up Naval Safety Command 04 Feb 2022 Heather Mongilio
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/04/navy-formally-stands-up-naval-safety-command
"The Navy has a new command after the Naval Safety Center was formally converted into the Naval Safety Command on Friday morning. The Naval Safety Command is a two-star command, which will focus on ensuring the service’s health and well-being. The command has historically been responsible for collecting data on Navy and Marine Corps mishaps.

The Naval Safety Command will be led by Rear Adm. Fredrick “Lucky” Luchtman, who oversaw it as the Naval Safety Center...."

[SLXOwft]

As I mentioned here https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/633983-fire-uss-bonhomme-richard-lhd-6-12-jul-20-a-13.html#post11182175 I think the upgrade to NAVSAFECOM is a big step in the right direction, their website doesn't ignore aviation safety. It all depends, of course, on how successful the CNO is on implementing the cultural change he says he wants. Freedom to make mistakes but learn from them, honesty in assessing unit performance, pass barriers to improvement up the chain of command without undue delay. I agree publication of accident reports, obviously without OPSEC sensitive content, would be a sign this is happening. Let's see if organizational failings get the blame for this one and not just the pilot.

[SpazSinbad]

Thanks. Found APPROACH again which earlier seemed to wander everywhere. Meanwhile SALVAGE begins perhaps:
US Navy: Team Sent to Recover Downed F-35 Fighter-Jet 24 Feb 2022
https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/philippine/us-navy-says-team-sent-to-recover-downed-f-35-fighter-jet-02242022093753.html
&
PICASSO diving support construction vessel Picasso DSV (http://www.ultradeepsolutions.com/picasso-dsv.html)

[RAFEngO74to09]

UPDATED: Navy Recovers Crashed F-35C From Depths of South China Sea - USNI News (https://news.usni.org/2022/03/03/navy-recovers-crashed-f-35c-from-depths-of-south-china-sea)

[SpazSinbad]

“A Navy F-35C on the deck of DSCV Picasso following a March 2, 2022 recovery from 12,400 feet under the South China Sea. US Navy Photo” https://news.usni.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/220302-N-N0824-0001.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1648x1022/f_35cdeckdscv_picasso02mar2022_6681a4dc8229ce3f8101564d7a4e9 a2949abbf81.jpg

[layman]

It might be just me, but I think that:
1) retrieving the ‘whole’ aircraft is impressive
2) doing it from 12,400 feet is impressive
3) completing the task so quickly is impressive

Then again, my total experience in the field of underwater salvage relates to retrieving golf balls ...

[Mogwi]

Is it just me, or does it look at bit - well - flat?

Mog

[Tango and Cash]

Is it just me, or does it look at bit - well - flat?

Mog

I thought the same thing, hard to tell the way it's wrapped. Perhaps it's the lack of the cockpit canopy which makes the forward fuselage look less 'portly' than usual.

[NutLoose]

You sure it’s not inverted as the wing appears to have a bit of anhedral, as per the UK’s, though the gear is oddly stowed, but it appears to also have the engine bulge in the aft fuselage.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x864/image_56ecb87b43edf16f19eaf77359bcbeb6aa30aa3a.jpeg

[Jobza Guddun]

I think the gear was well and truly Donald Ducked Nutty!

[SpazSinbad]

F-35 JPO Evaluating Spare Parts Following Vinson, Queen Elizabeth Deployments 09 Mar 2022
https://news.usni.org/2022/03/09/f-35-jpo-evaluating-spare-parts-following-vinson-queen-elizabeth-deployments
...Asked about the January F-35C ramp strike aboard Vinson, Fick said he’s not aware of any fleetwide notifications needed as a result of that mishap nor the F-35B one aboard Queen Elizabeth in November. “No one has brought to me anything requiring a fleetwide notification associated with either the F-35C nor the B mishap that you’re all probably tracking from the Queen Elizabeth as well,” Fick said. “Nothing that I have seen thus far. We continue to support the investigations in those cases and if anything comes of it that requires that fleet notification, I will absolutely do that.”

[SpazSinbad]

09 Mar 2022 PICASSO F-35C VFA-147 Relay Point on Twitter: https://t.co/WcX8CzFdfT

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/fnamtxnakaixoci_32a95f26a51e17036a6e9f8715a2cac0353a3a5e.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

As one does scrolling through the mountains of info available in the BIG PDF I came across this perhaps overlooked item.
Semper Lightning: F-35 Flight Control System Part 1 09 Dec 2015 Dan “Dog” Canin
Source: Semper Lightning: F-35 Flight Control System | Code One Magazine (http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=187)
“...the CV airplane has three different approach modes, easily selected using buttons on the stick and throttle. Two of these modes – APC and DFP – are auto-throttle modes, indicated by a three-letter label on the left side of the HUD. The third mode – manual throttle – is indicated by the absence of a label… arguably not the most compelling indication that you’re responsible for the throttle. This interface will probably evolve; in the meantime, we need to be disciplined and to make doubly sure we’ve got APC engaged be-fore we turn throttle control over to George....

...APC is “approach power compensation” mode, in which the throttle is automatically control-led to maintain the desired AOA during approach. In the C-model, engagement of APC also increases the gain on IDLC (integrated direct lift control), which schedules the flaps in response to stick movements to give very high-gain glideslope response. Another approach mode, DFP (delta flight path), currently in the C-model only, changes the pitch axis CLAW from a pitch-rate system to a glideslope-command system. DFP improves glideslope tracking performance & significantly reduces workload during carrier approaches....”

[SpazSinbad]

Poor old spaz thot TACAN (Mk.1) was magic. Aboard HMAS Melbourne It was the FIRST installation in Australia. Being earlier a Vampire/Sea Venom pilot, ADF was our only beacon ashore. "I knew where I was at all times because I knew where I WASN'T" :-) IF TACAN (also installed at NAS Nowra by the time I got there beginning of 1969) was not working onboard then the magnificent & reliable radars & directors did the trick backed up by our mental NAV one would hope. :-) Then TACAN was not that of later versions and not used for approaches. Night carrier approaches were via CCA to one NM using a SEA VENOM [NOPE - old Brit Carrier first CCAs used 'em] radar mounted up high aft onboard 'the warb/war canoe' then visual via the mirror.
Ground Controlled Approach (GCA) the forerunner to a Pilot Precision Approach - SQNLDR Jim Males AM RAAF (Rtd) 2022
https://issuu.com/slipstream2/docs/slipstream_mar_2022
"...HMAS Melbourne had a ship-based version, SPN-35, [installed during the refit to enable A4Gs & S2s ops c.1967] and many old RAN controllers will fondly remember conducting a 'carrier-controlled approach' (CCA in lieu of GCA). The SPN-35 was similar to the FPN-36 but had a gyro stabilised antenna group because of ship motion. Talk down commenced as the ship was turning into wind, the final heading for aircraft recovery. It was not uncommon for naval aviators to be given large heading corrections with the ship turning up to 90 degrees to port or starboard; "commence descent and turn left 40 deg” etc. The philosophy was that we were training for war and aircraft were more expendable than the carrier so the ship spent minimal time vulnerable while tracking into wind...."
___________________

“...Upon her return to Sydney [22 Nov 1967], Melbourne commenced preparations for a major refit and modernisation, conducted at Garden Island Dockyard, to enable her to operate her new aircraft. She remained alongside in Sydney until February 1969. The refit included a communications upgrade and a new radar suite, consisting of both Dutch and American radars. The British Type 293 surface search set was retained and an LW-02 air-surveillance radar was installed over the bridge. Abaft the funnel, an SPN-35 carrier-controlled approach radar was mounted within a dome, and on the lattice mast a new tactical air navigation (TACAN) aerial and electronic countermeasures (ECM) pods were mounted....” https://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-melbourne-ii

[SpazSinbad]

As the world turns so does stuff turn up: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/mystery-photo-no-47-answer/ "...The device circled in yellow is a Sea Venom nose (complete with radar) on the rear of the island just below the big radar aerial. It was there to perform as an SCA (Ship Controlled Approach) radar for the returning Venoms and Gannets.... On board ship, the lock-on and the general search modes were not stabilised, so the pitch and roll of the ship made the adoption of a glide slope very difficult. The device only appears in photographs between 1959 and 1963 or thereabouts, and may therefore have been installed during Melbourne’s August 1959 refit at Garden Island.... MAX SPEEDY" - PDF attached says more about RN initial invention c.1957

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1680x1050/ccaradarvenommelbourne1959_c4cafc617b16aef48724e7ef11eb1af4a a3b5076.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1154x870/ccaradarvenommelbourne1959zoomforum_18ef351d280da1ca203b1bd1 8fee662aaa3fa1aa.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

F-35C GRR ARGH RAMP STRIKE VINSON VFA-147 'Argonauts' 24 Jan 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw1zb0U1vlU

[SpazSinbad]

The Carl Vinson is fitted with JPALS. I wonder if this was in use?
Not sure if this tidbit posted already, I've sure hinted at it "JPALS not for day DLs in good weather".
"A Message from Lorraine Martin 20 Aug 2015 Lorraine Martin LM P R “...Back in the states, CF-3 at Pax River completed the first Joint Precision Approach and Landing System (JPALS) approaches with an F-35. This mission is an important part of the shore-based workups the Pax ITF team is required to accomplish in preparation for the upcoming F-35C ship trials this fall. JPALS will primarily be used by pilots during night time and poor weather ship board landing operations....” https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/documents/16121/f-35_weekly_update_8-20-15.pdf