View Full Version : Boeing Starliner
Boeing is having no luck - or yet another example of poor design and/or quality control, depending how you view it….
https://spaceflightnow.com/2021/08/05/boeings-starliner-capsule-returns-to-hanger-for-valve-troubleshooting/
Boeing’s Starliner capsule returns to hanger for valve troubleshooting
The Starliner and SLS are becoming an absolute joke. As is Boeing.
Nige321
9th Aug 2021, 17:42
Starliner update (https://starlinerupdates.com/boeing-advances-starliner-solutions-in-the-vertical-integration-facility/)
How on earth did it make it to the pad with 13 non-functioning valves...?!
This weekend, Boeing restored functionality on more of the 13 CST-100 Starliner propulsion system valves that did not open as designed during prelaunch system checks last week.
Boeing has completed physical inspections and chemical sampling on the exterior of a number of the affected valves, which indicated no signs of damage or external corrosion. Test teams are now applying mechanical, electrical and thermal techniques to prompt the valves open. Seven of the 13 valves are now operating as designed, with inspection and remediation of the remaining affected valves to be performed in the days ahead.
Boeing is working a systematic plan to open the affected valves, demonstrate repeatable system performance, and verify the root cause of the issue before returning Starliner to the launch pad for its Orbital Flight Test-2 mission.
The company is assessing multiple launch opportunities for Starliner in August and will work with NASA and United Launch Alliance to confirm those dates when the spacecraft is ready.
Boeing will continue to provide information at www.StarlinerUpdates.com (https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.starlinerupdates.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Ckyle.j.herring%40nasa.gov%7C0369c36ceb554f3be c6808d95b3b3890%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%7 C637641132184642099%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=oHzbjik%2FA0ZDXhi8bVNXAEigb1VKETXKZsYvR6C1xVE%3D&reserved=0) as it becomes available.
teams are now applying mechanical, electrical and thermal techniques to prompt the valves open
Hammer and blowtorch presumably...
Tango and Cash
9th Aug 2021, 19:16
Starliner update (https://starlinerupdates.com/boeing-advances-starliner-solutions-in-the-vertical-integration-facility/)
How on earth did it make it to the pad with 13 non-functioning valves...?!
My completely uneducated and uninformed guess is the root cause (whatever that may be) caused a whole system's worth of valves to become non-functioning.
The problem is that Boeing have no idea of th3 root cause if the failure, and therefore no way of guaranteeing it won’t reoccur during the stresses of launch or exposure to space.
Their access is limited in that the valves are all mounted internally in the vehicle. Their available external testing if the valves shows no corrosion o4 material problems, they seem fine. They have been able to “jiggle” them using heat etc to work, but can they be sure they’ll continue to work?
They could roll the dive and launch, after all it’s unmanned, but would NASA feel safe to then go straight to manned flights without being 100% certain if th3 cause?
Bottom line - NASA won’t let them fly until they can identify the roof cause and prove it has been resolved. As such I can’t see how it can fly until they’ve been removed and had detailed internal inspections - however desperately Boeing argue the case with NASA.
Tango and Cash
10th Aug 2021, 17:51
The problem is that Boeing have no idea of th3 root cause if the failure, and therefore no way of guaranteeing it won’t reoccur during the stresses of launch or exposure to space.
Their access is limited in that the valves are all mounted internally in the vehicle. Their available external testing if the valves shows no corrosion o4 material problems, they seem fine. They have been able to “jiggle” them using heat etc to work, but can they be sure they’ll continue to work?
They could roll the dive and launch, after all it’s unmanned, but would NASA feel safe to then go straight to manned flights without being 100% certain if th3 cause?
Bottom line - NASA won’t let them fly until they can identify the roof cause and prove it has been resolved. As such I can’t see how it can fly until they’ve been removed and had detailed internal inspections - however desperately Boeing argue the case with NASA.
If they roll the dice and launch:
Best case, it works, but Boeing still has to figure out the root cause and show to NASA's satisfaction it has been addressed. Cue flight test #3?
Worst case, it doesn't work, Boeing has yet another media black eye and still has to figure out what went wrong. I suspect there will be more than a few folks calling for cancellation of Boeing's contract.
I'm guessing there will be no dice rolling, no launch, and Starliner isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Tango and Cash
13th Aug 2021, 22:28
I was wrong, Starliner is going someplace... back to the factory for further troubleshooting
https://starlinerupdates.com/starliner-returning-to-factory-to-resolve-valve-issue/
TURIN
14th Aug 2021, 01:34
How long have they been building and function testing this heap of Garbage? Glad it's not my taxes paying for it.
cavuman1
14th Aug 2021, 23:06
Brings back painful memories of the Apollo 1 fire in 1967. That ship was an accident waiting to happen; I fear Starliner may be one as well. Time to pull the plug IMHO.
- Ed
wiggy
15th Aug 2021, 11:16
Brings back painful memories of the Apollo 1 fire in 1967. That ship was an accident waiting to happen; I fear Starliner may be one as well. Time to pull the plug IMHO.
- Ed
I must admit that thought has crossed my a few times when reading some of the previous posts…
ATSA1
16th Aug 2021, 15:06
.....Especially as Spacex have a very serviceable product, already doing the job!
The Sultan
2nd Jun 2023, 01:40
Brings back painful memories of the Apollo 1 fire in 1967. That ship was an accident waiting to happen; I fear Starliner may be one as well. Time to pull the plug IMHO.
- Ed
Mid-July launch of first crewed vehicle now delayed indefinitely for understrength parachuted risers and using a flammable tape in the cabin to wrap wire harnesses! Apollo 1 all over again! This is worse than not knowing that Florida is humid in summer, which caused their second demo flight valve problems. I don't know who is more incompetent Boeing for doing it or NASA for not finding the issues until the third flight.
Time to kick this pig to the curb and hope Sierra's space plane works.
https://arstechnica.com/space/2023/06/boeing-stands-down-from-starliner-launch-to-address-recently-found-problems/
……These new problems are likely to ratchet up concerns from outside observers about the safety culture at Boeing.
Last week (https://spacenews.com/nasa-safety-panel-skeptical-of-starliner-readiness-for-crewed-flight/), NASA's Aerospace Safety Advisory Panel urged NASA to bring in independent experts to assess the viability of Starliner.
“Given the number of remaining challenges to certification of Starliner, we strongly encourage NASA to step back and take a measured look at the remaining body of work with respect to flying CFT,” Patricia Sanders, chair of the committee, said on May 25.
She believes NASA should bring in an independent team, such as from the NASA Engineering and Safety Center, “to take a deep look at the items on the path to closure.”
That was before the most recent issues cropped up. Doubtless, safety experts will be concerned about how these issues went undiscovered by Boeing and NASA until the final weeks leading up to the flight…..
Questions have been raised about whether Boeing will remain committed to the Starliner program, which is already a money loser.
The company is contracted to fly six missions for NASA after certification of the Starliner vehicle, which will only occur after the crewed flight test. Boeing has already received much of the $4.2 billion from NASA in milestone awards, so it presumably would have to give some of that money back if it did not fly astronauts for NASA. But the cost of flying those missions may be greater than any funding Boeing would have to pay back to NASA.….
The Sultan
7th Aug 2023, 20:45
Update to the latest delay.
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/07/boeing-resets-starliners-first-crewed-spaceflight-target-for-march.html
Now the earliest for a crewed test flight is March 2024 with first operational flight sometime in 2025. This is eight years after the originally planned 2017 operational date and 6 years after the failed initial test flight.
Boing continues to excel!
First launch planned for 0234 UTC Tuesday , 2234 EDT today.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpeg21x7n7qo
https://x.com/spaceflightnow/status/1787304991696334948?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
https://x.com/boeingspace/status/1787346939589407158?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
Flight scrubbed, due a valve problem on the launch vehicle not a capsule issue, next attempt NET Friday.
Space.com:
”It will take a few days to work through the valve issue that scrubbed the first astronaut mission of Boeing's Starliner (https://www.space.com/19367-boeing-cst-100.html) capsule.
A test mission to the International Space Station called Crew Flight Test (CFT).CFT was supposed to launch on Monday night (May 6).
That attempt was called off (https://www.space.com/boeing-starliner-1st-launch-attempt-scrub) about two hours before the planned liftoff, however, due to an issue with a pressure regulation valve on the liquid oxygen tank in the upper stage of Starliner's rocket ride, a United Launch Alliance (ULA) Atlas V.
Early on Tuesday morning (May 7), NASA announced that launch teams need more time to troubleshoot the issue. The earliest that CFT could launch is now Friday night (May 10), at 9 p.m. EDT (0100 GMT on May 11).”
They really are having some bad luck with this. The Atlas is one of the most reliable rockets avaliable. Ho hum.
True generically but this is an Atlas V..big changes over previous iterations including Russian engines, and FWIW last night’s (now believed to be minor) problem was in the Centaur upper stage.
ULA will roll the Atlas V rocket back to its hangar to replace a faulty valve in its upper stage. Next launch attempt is 10 days from today.
https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/
Won't be fun for the crew to be in quarantine for 10 days
MechEngr
8th May 2024, 09:28
Quarantine is when they may have a disease you don't want to catch.
Isolation is when you may have a disease they don't want to catch.
https://x.com/spaceflightnow/status/1792964760708981124?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
The Crew Flight Test of Boeing's Starliner spacecraft is no longer targeting Saturday, May 25.
We're awaiting official word from NASA and Boeing on the next possible launch date and for more information regarding the path forward on the helium leak.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1159x698/image_d6ffe9e94ce63deef5b80094c7ae5826905645a4.png
https://x.com/spaceflightnow/status/1794020630066577816?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
Starting now, NASA, Boeing and ULA will provide an update on the Starliner Crew Flight Test, which is currently set for no earlier than June 1.
Follow this thread for written updates.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1794020630066577816.html
Starliner spacecraft was rolled out to pad 41 yesterday with launch targeted for 1225PM EDT Sat, Jun 1st.
mikeygd
1st Jun 2024, 16:30
Saturday launch scrubbed for "Technical reasons". Hopefully another attempt tomorrow.
Hold at 4 mins, then scrubbed again.
Not sure why.
Will this thing ever fly?
Supposed to be another window in 24 hours - once they work out why the computer aborted the countdown…
dixi188
1st Jun 2024, 17:03
How did NASA ever get to the Moon 55 years ago?????
DuncanDoenitz
1st Jun 2024, 17:09
How did NASA ever get to the Moon 55 years ago?????
Fewer computers.
Next launch attempt now planned for Wednesday.
Starship IFT-4 is planned for Thursday. Reportedly the FAA will not allow both on the same day so, if Starliner delays again, Starship gets priority for Thursday.
Fewer computers.
Actually they had lots more computers... Of the human variety.
hobbit1983
2nd Jun 2024, 13:10
Next launch attempt now planned for Wednesday.
Starship IFT-4 is planned for Thursday. Reportedly the FAA will not allow both on the same day so, if Starliner delays again, Starship gets priority for Thursday.
How come, do you know?
One rumoured reason, would you believe, is PR. NASA wants the press to be able to cover both…..
Id imagine other shared assets such as the RB-57 and telescope and satellites etc might be a concern.
https://x.com/cosmic_penguin/status/1796953068493484520?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
That's 14:29 UTC for June 6th, right at the end of Starship's window. Even Starliner launching a day earlier will mean lots of spaceflight reporters/photographers missing one or the other.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1284x722/image_7d386c71cb55a683c2794182129f1b6c60f8a545.png
Finally, Starliner gets to orbit.
No video till they reach the ISS - because Starliner doesn’t have cameras or video downlinks onboard…
https://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/live-blog/live-updates-boeing-starliner-launch-nasa-astronauts-space-rcna155185
Live updates: Boeing Starliner flies NASA astronauts into space for first time
They are so far behind SpaceX on the PR stuff.
No video till they reach the ISS - because Starliner doesn’t have cameras or video downlinks onboard…
I watched the NASA TV launch replay. There was an external camera and live downlink which showed the
solid rocket boosters separating and quite a lot of vision after that
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Looks like they didn’t solve the problem…..https://x.com/spaceflightnow/status/1798505819446620398?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
Flight controllers in Houston are troubleshooting a helium leak in the propulsion system on Boeing's Starliner.
According to a mission commentator the crew has closed all helium manifold valves in an effort to isolate the leak.
Helium provides pressure to the propulsion system, which is used for manuevering and the braking burn needed to return the astronauts to Earth.
A helium leak detected prior to launch delayed the mission by several weeks but was deemed safe to fly with.
https://x.com/spaceflightnow/status/1798521618664194077?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
Adding some additional context on the helium leaks onboard Starliner: teams are monitoring two new leaks beyond the original leak detected prior to liftoff. One is in the port 2 manifold, one in the port 1 manifold and the other in the top manifold.
The port 2 manifold leak, connected to one of the Reaction Control System (RCS) thrusters, is the one engineers were tracking pre-launch.
The spacecraft is in a stable configuration and teams are pressing forward with the plan to rendezvous and dock with the ISS on June 6 at about 12:15 pm EDT (1615 UTC).
Boeing engineer Brandon Burroughs explains more about the solution in work overnight and what comes next.
Jhieminga
6th Jun 2024, 09:32
It's a shame that the project continues to be plagued with technical issues and delays. Then again, they are a big step closer to having the system operational.
I'm sorry, but this is a major red flag! Critical control systems should not be leaking. Ever! Crazy that they've put people on this with such faults.
Boeing have really lost the plot.
Finally docked at the ISS at the second attempt after more problems. Big pucker factor coming home if anything similar happens during re-entry.
The first docking approach was aborted when they were ordered to retreat to a holding pattern 200m away known as the “keep out sphere” after five of the manoeuvring thrusters failed to fire.
https://www.space.com/boeing-starliner-misses-first-iss-docking-attempt
…..”Starliner missed its first docking chance, at 12:15 p.m. EDT (1615 GMT), after five of its 28 reaction-control thrusters malfunctioned. But the mission team got four of those impacted thrusters back online, and Starliner was cleared to approach the ISS in the next window.”….
Move along there folks! Nothing to see here….
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/06/after-a-drama-filled-day-boeings-starliner-finally-finds-its-way/
….However, the Boeing official speaking to reporters on Thursday, Nappi, sought to downplay the severity of the issues confronted by Starliner and its flight controllers. There are two primary problems, he said, the helium leak and the intermittent thruster problems.
"Those are pretty small, really, issues to deal with," he said. "We’ll figure them out for the next mission. I don’t see these as significant at all."
https://spacenews.com/fifth-helium-leak-detected-on-starliner/
Fifth helium leak detected on Starliner
WASHINGTON — NASA confirmed that Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner spacecraft has suffered a fifth, although minor, helium leak in its propulsion system as engineers work to prepare the vehicle for its return to Earth next week.
In a June 10 statement (https://blogs.nasa.gov/boeing-crew-flight-test/2024/06/10/nasa-boeing-progress-on-testing-starliner-with-crew-at-space-station/), NASA mentioned that spacecraft teams were examining “what impacts, if any, five small leaks in the service module helium manifolds would have on the remainder of the mission.”
That was the first reference to there being five leaks in the spacecraft; NASA had mentioned there were four in a briefing hours after the spacecraft’s June 6 docking with the International Space Station (https://spacenews.com/starliner-docks-with-international-space-station-on-crewed-test-flight/).
In a June 11 statement to SpaceNews, NASA spokesperson Josh Finch said the fifth leak was detected around the time of that post-docking briefing. “The leak is considerably smaller than the others and has been recorded at 1.7 psi [pounds per square inch] per minute,” he said.…..
hobbit1983
13th Jun 2024, 11:46
It's a test flight, but still... :ooh:
https://spaceflightnow.com/2024/06/22/nasa-again-delays-starliner-undocking-return-to-earth/
NASA again delays Starliner undocking, return to Earth
NASA and Boeing managers have again decided to extend the Starliner crew capsule’s stay at the International Space Station, passing up a June 26 re-entry to allow more time for analysis and testing to make sure helium leaks and thruster failures are fully understood, officials said late Friday.
NASA plans to hold a formal re-entry readiness review before setting a new landing target date. Given the on-going analysis, the Starliner’s undocking and return to Earth likely will slip past two already planned space station spacewalks on Monday and July 2.
In the meantime, Starliner commander Barry “Butch” Wilmore and co-pilot Sunita Williams are still cleared to undock and fly home at any time if a station malfunction or other issue crops up that requires a quick departure. As such, officials say they are not stranded in space.
“We are taking our time and following our standard mission management team process,” Steve Stich, manager of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, said in a statement. “We are letting the data drive our decision making relative to managing the small helium system leaks and thruster performance we observed during rendezvous and docking.”
In addition, he said, given the extended duration of the Starliner mission “it is appropriate for us to complete an agency-level review, similar to what was done ahead of the NASA’s SpaceX Demo-2 return after two months on orbit, to document the agency’s formal acceptance on proceeding as planned.”
He was referring to the first flight of astronauts aboard SpaceX’s Crew Dragon ferry ship in 2020. But the Demo-2 mission did not experience problems like the ones noted so far in the Starliner’s first piloted test flight.
The issue for Starliner troubleshooters is that the helium leakage and the thrusters in question are located in the Starliner’s drum-shaped service module, which is attached to the base of the crew capsule. The service module is jettisoned prior to re-entry and burns up in the atmosphere.
Given that engineers will not be able to examine the actual hardware after the fact, NASA and Boeing managers want to give them as much time as possible to review telemetry, to continue testing and to polish contingency scenarios in case additional problems show up after undocking.
They also want to learn as much as possible about what might be needed to prevent similar problems in downstream flights. NASA managers were hoping to certify the Starliner for operational crew rotation flights to the ISS starting early next year, but it’s not yet clear if that’s remains a realistic goal......
cavuman1
23rd Jun 2024, 15:27
The continued postponement of Starliner's re-entry date concerns me. If helium leaks represented a threat to safe flight, the craft would have been brought home soonest to limit pressure loss. Malfunctioning and non-functioning thrusters are a matter of grave importance. Correct flight attitudes during re-entry are critical; axis excursions might lead to loss of crew. Perhaps there is another glitch of which we are unaware. Do Boeing and NASA know something we don't? Fingers crossed for Butch and Suni.
- Ed
Less Hair
23rd Jun 2024, 16:12
Could they "just" take another vehicle back to earth and let Starliner return unmanned? It seems to need human astronauts for control?
TURIN
23rd Jun 2024, 16:26
There needs to be sufficient emergency escape vehicles available for all crew. Can they fit two more in a Dragon?
wiggy
23rd Jun 2024, 18:22
The continued postponement of Starliner's re-entry date concerns me. If helium leaks represented a threat to safe flight, the craft would have been brought home soonest to limit pressure loss. Malfunctioning and non-functioning thrusters are a matter of grave importance. Correct flight attitudes during re-entry are critical; axis excursions might lead to loss of crew. Perhaps there is another glitch of which we are unaware. Do Boeing and NASA know something we don't? Fingers crossed for Butch and Suni.
- Ed
The (possibly) faulty thrusters are located in the Service Module, so whilst they may have a role in ensuring correct attitude for retro fire they would be long gone by the time the crew get to re-entry itself.
tdracer
23rd Jun 2024, 19:04
The (possibly) faulty thrusters are located in the Service Module, so whilst they may have a role in ensuring correct attitude for retro fire they would be long gone by the time the crew get to re-entry itself.
Which is part of the reason why they are delaying the return - the Service Module is destroyed during re-entry, so they can't examine the faulty thrusters. So they are doing various testing while docked to evaluate what's going wrong in an effort to isolate the root cause.
cavuman1
23rd Jun 2024, 21:42
Points well made, wiggy and tdracer, but I continue to worry. If the Starliner has any commonality with its Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo predecessors, thrusters on the capsule itself are utilized throughout the re-entry phase up until drogue deployment. Do we know if the vehicle's thrusters are similar to those on the Service Module? Does it really take three weeks to run diagnostics on the Module's systems? I sense something is afoot of which we are unaware and sincerely hope that I am wrong!
- Ed
MechEngr
24th Jun 2024, 00:43
The starliner capsule reentry control thrusters (https://www.l3harris.com/all-capabilities/cst-100-starliner) are supposed to be traditional hydrazine units - Aerojet Rocketdyne MR-104J (https://www.satcatalog.com/component/mr-104j-440n/)
Jhieminga
24th Jun 2024, 07:53
There needs to be sufficient emergency escape vehicles available for all crew. Can they fit two more in a Dragon?
I think Dragon was originally designed to carry seven astronauts if needed, but they generally fly with four and may not have additional seats available.
Designed for 7 so the environmental system can cope. Don’t have the SpaceX suits, but they’re a safety measure not a necessity. Plenty of space where the other seats were so padding could be added in the floor. So it is doable in an emergency.
But so is use of the Starliner itself. The delay is risk mitigation, not that there is a known problem which would endanger re-entry.
If there are doubts the safest option would be for them to remain aboard till the next Dragon crew rotation flight in August. Planned for 4 crew rotation but they could launch with just 2 plus extra suits and recover them with two of the planned returnees, extending the tours of the other 2.
That would reduce the total crew to the previous planned complement.
Starliner could be released before the arrival to do another automated test re-entry, freeing the docking bay.
ATSA1
26th Jun 2024, 15:57
If the Starliner crew have to be recovered on a Dragon, and the Starliner re -enter unmanned, I fear that will be the end of the whole Starliner program...I think that I read that Boeing are never going to recoup the money that they have spent on the program, and so cut their losses...
Lets see if the July date is kept..
visibility3miles
26th Jun 2024, 16:42
“The problems we have seen in the last few weeks are not the kind we would have anticipated at this stage of the development programme for Starliner,” he says.“The whole point about this was to test what putting astronauts in the loop of controlling the spacecraft would do in terms of performance. Instead, we seem to be dealing with rather more fundamental issues that really should have been ironed out by now.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c6pp29gdwe6o
There’s a reason you should do a LOT of testing before launch. :ouch: