Heathrow-3

[Serenity]

So EasyJet Europe turned down for 98 LHR slots for summer 2021.
maybe if others restrict schedules or fall by the wayside it will get reviewed.

[pabely]

Reason old GB Airways slots I heard, if not grandfathers rights a very distant relation!
Surely would have been sold when EZY purchased GB Airways?

[southside bobby]

The slots application was a considered request & further applications will be pursued given opportunities say EZY.

[TOM100]

GB Airways LHR slots were excluded from the EZY sale and were sold (for a high sum) in separate transactions (I believe some to an ME3 carrier and some to a US carrier, I think Continental at the time). Smart move. The whole GB Airways sale (just ahead of 2008 financial crash and high oil prices) was great timing and value for the Bland Group (even if a bit of a fluke).

[SWBKCB]

As well as the new applicants, how many of the operators who have started operations this winter (Eastern, China, Rwandair. etc) have got slots for the summer?

[mmeteesside]

Does anyone know the best way (or have a contact?) to submit a commendation for a Menzies LHR team member? Tried ringing them but it just rings & rings and can’t find an email to email in either.
Any suggestions?

[Albert Hall]

Of airlines flying/announced/pending for LHR this winter, they received the following for Summer 2021:

Blue Air - nothing
China Airlines - nothing
Loganair - nothing
Ukraine International - nothing
Spicejet - nothing
Eastern Airways - nothing
Vistara - nothing
Cargojet - nothing
Rwandair - nothing

The only airline to receive more slots in S21 than they had in S20 were Shenzen Air.

[goldeneye]

Jetblue also didn’t get slots at LHR. They have secured slots at LGW & STN.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/294790/jetblue-lands-london-slots-but-misses-out-on-lhr/

[Confirmed Must Ride]

I could get something through to the team, still have a number of senior contacts

[commit aviation]

I never thought I would see the day that LHR started charging a drop off charge but we live in very different times.
I imagine they will make more than a few quid from that!

https://travelweekly.co.uk/articles/394723/heathrow-plans-to-impose-5-forecourt-charge-for-vehicles

[PAXboy]

Heathrow are just continuing the practise of the last 35 years. 'Slice the price into small pieces ...' I do understand they don't want thousands of cars to come back to their inadequate facilities and this will keep some people away. I have to drop someone off in a few weeks time and will have to weigh up the Long Car Park drop off option.

It will be interesting to see what queues and arguments develope and where they are going to put the toll booths. They will want to move to only on-line but that will take a while to establish the practice. Some folks will get hit by fines saying they did not see the signs.

[davidjohnson6]

This isn't about inadequate facilities - this is about an airport which has seen revenues collapse over the last 9 months and wanting to make some more money

[PAXboy]

True, but their location and historic layout places huge constraints on access. They have used the Green flag to reduce traffic into the central area. Which, given the space, is reasonable.

[Trinity 09L]

Use the Hatton Cross tube, to the terminals,save time - simples.
Unfortunately, the large numbers of diesel HGV's delivering and leaving the freight section, and catering trucks are not affected - yet.

[SealinkBF]

commit aviation

They are also abolishing the free transit zone. Which is a shame... was a great service and much better than the awful Hoppa.

[Rutan16]

Suspended because TFL are COVID19 related destitute; central government told them to retain maximum service through the spring and early summer and the Mayor obliged .
Indeed went as far as suspending revenue collection for some time .

When TFL subsequently presented the bill to the DOT they laughed and offered something of a derisory settlement . Result marginal operations and benefits are being cut including the Heathrow free zone.

[Navpi]

Traffic picking up rapidly at LHR. Back to dual ops Monday.

[DaveReidUK]

More in anticipation, I think - currently average daily movements are around 425, compared to about 1300 this time last year, so still a long way to go.

[MANFAN]

With London moving into Tier 3 tomorrow, what restrictions will there be on retail at Heathrow during these times?
I'm catching a connecting flight in Terminal 5 with BA on Thursday...can I expect most places to be closed?

[BA318]

Rutan16

The Heathrow free zone was paid for by Heathrow. They have suspended subsiding it. It was not a saving by TFL. https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2020/11/19/heathrow-suspends-free-travel-zone/

[DaveReidUK]

Interesting radar processing bug, courtesy of Heathrow's WebTrak system:


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/395x420/qr008_4431c1bc3395261f8e4a6519e9b1c0b91230a068.jpg

[LessThanSte]

The Supreme Court has decided that the Airports National Policy Statement is not unlawful. In practical terms this means Heathrow can now re-commence work on their Development Consent Order in reliance on the ANPS policy. The reality may be somewhat slower given the economic situation.

Available to watch the judgment here;

Watch live - the Supreme Court (https://www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html)

[Playamar2]

Although there is a discussion on the British Airways page with regard slot retention, I though it more relevant to Heathrow overall. There is an article in Simple Flying about the 80-20 rule the main points being;-The Worldwide Airport Slot Board would like to EU to accede to the following;


Airlines that return a full series of slots by early February to be permitted to retain the right to operate them in northern 2022 summer;

A lower operating threshold for retaining slots the following season. In normal industry conditions, the rule is 80-20. The Worldwide Airport Slot Board wants to amend this to 50-50 over the northern 20201 summer; and

A clear definition for acceptable non-use of a slot. For example, force majeure as a result of short-term border closures or quarantine measures imposed by governments.

The full article can be found at EU Seeks To Reintroduce Airport Slot Rules - Simple Flying (https://simpleflying.com/eu-airport-slot-rules/)

[Trinity 09L]

Maybe LHR can run a lottery on the first date westerly landing, first westerly departure, first easterly landing, first easterly departure in correct order. Maybe help to pay for the runway 😂

[WHBM]

The Heathrow free zone was paid for by Heathrow. They have suspended subsiding it. It was not a saving by TFL.
Very few were using it now but TfL hiked substantially the charge for it.

[PAXboy]

Still, at least LHR mgmt don't have to waste any more time planning for R3. As previously mentioned, it will never be built. Never was going to be built, for different reasons.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

They've literally just won at The Supreme Court.
The legislation has passed all Parliamentary hurdles and gone all the way to the highest court in the land. The planning process now begins in earnest. In all honestly, in 18 months time, COVID should be a memory we're all travelling again to forget.
Don't write it off just yet.

[LTNman]

Playamar2

Except the U.K. won’t be in the EU in 2 weeks time regardless of Brexit talks.

[Dannyboy39]

Rutan16

And then Boris blames Sadiq Khan for bankrupting TfL!

[Navpi]

Major blow to Heathrow and indeed Gatwick Luton and Stansted, all non essential travel is now banned into and out of the South East from midnight, as indeed is travel to these airports from outside. It will be interesting to see how this will be enforced and indeed how airlines react. This week end has been one of the busiest for a while but many of the routes don't neeceesarily appear to be business related.

[PAXboy]

For R3: Those opposing it have won several hurdles, they won't stop now. I think we will find that 2021 is going to be so bad in the airline world that this will get pushed further down the road. That will be the first reaction, postponing due to money shortage.

[CabinCrewe]

this will go all guns blazing once things settle down... I expect it to be firmed and up and running within next 10 years. Id be interested to know of the complainers how many had flown, and how many had flown specifically and enjoyed the benefits from LHR?

[PAXboy]

Let me repeat:

I believe in R3
I think it should have been built 20 years ago
I think there may well be a need for it in the future
I doubt it will ever be built
I shall be happy to be proved wrong.

[DaveReidUK]

CabinCrewe

Even allowing for the fact that some of the preliminary work has already been done, 10 years is a very ambitious timescale. The T5 planning and construction process, overall, took the best part of 20 years, and that was without the requirement for wholesale airspace design changes.

[WHBM]

DaveReidUK

Has this detailed design not even been done yet ?

[DaveReidUK]

I've seen plenty of plan iterations since the proposal was first mooted, but none has been described as definitive.

AFAIK, it hasn't even been decided how R3 will get over the M25 - motorway in a tunnel?, runway on a ramp/bridge?, you name it ...

Ditto whether there's to be a T6 or just some additional T5 satellites.

[Navpi]

The way things are going LHR won't need any runways let alone a 3rd.

[Trinity 09L]

CabinCrewe

So I must be a complainer. I have lived close to Heathrow since 1973, no T4,T5, no tube access, and cross runway still in use. Present when PI crashed. Worked there for 6 years. The expansion since 73 has been suitable/acceptable.
The expansion for R3 is not now required. This includes the sea change in business methods of communications. Tourist pax numbers will be less, they are already accommodated by BA and the opposition. The land grab, movement of local roads is extraordinary. Rail links, tube and rail and roads are not being funded by Heathrow. The impact of noise on new communities is ignored.
Have I used Heathrow? Yes for business use within the UK, Ireland, and worldwide, both with BA and many different carriers when cost is relevant, since 1973. Also as a tourist pax, but used all other SE airports.
Heathrow is only a small hub for the UK. All major cities in UK have access to all points east and south, via ME points. Traditionally pax would transit through LHR, now flights from USA/Canada fly over the UK on route ME/Asia/China. Twins have extra range and economics.
There is no need now for R3.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

So I must be a complainer. I have lived close to Heathrow since 1973, no T4,T5, no tube access, and cross runway still in use. Present when PI crashed. Worked there for 6 years. The expansion since 73 has been suitable/acceptable.
There is no need now for R3.
If you were right, then it will stand empty once buit. There would be no willing queue of airlines ready to pay a premium to pay for it. In truth, there has been a pressing need for a runway 3 since 1977 when LHR was declared full. The overflow concept to Gatwick and Stansted has failed to replicate in any way the long haul connectivity and economic engine of the original London Airport.

The opportunity for job creation and employment is, I believe huge. There is going to be a green cost which modern engine technology and carbon offsets will be required to be brought to bear, but the notion that there's no need is an odd one. Even the Greens say the need is there but we should not put economic growth before environmental concerns. Frankly if we went to be able to pay our way in the world and get out of the hole we're in then it's essential to press on and provide the infrastructure for economic growth, within an agreed environmental framework. Just be honest and say you just don't want aeroplanes flying over the house you wanted to spend a quiet retirement in. That's a fair and honest arguement, with respect, claiming there's no need, is not backed up by anyone serious who has looked at this. Even David Cameron, the man who cancelled this last time, recognised this in the end. His review was a way of doing the right thing late and keeping his hands semi clean.
We need to stop pretending LHR is like any other private business, it's a key part of UK PLC that arguably should not have been sold to the private sector, the costs of the infrastructure redevelopment should not be borne soley by HAL, much would be required anyway. The public / private split of the funding will be a battle but it's a public / private partnership so that's wholey reasonable and outwith the newspapers has been recognised as such.

The way things are going LHR won't need any runways let alone a 3rd.
If this is correct, MAN should be closed and houses built. Should we close MAN? Er...no.

[Navpi]

er well yes Skip.

Unless support is forthcoming from "Wishi Washi" both airports are in trouble and need support.

[PAXboy]

In my view, R3 however useful will not be built because, the long term situation that was created by the failure to expand LHR in the last 30 years is that:

Regional airfields expanded
LCCs jumped into these 'local' fields
The big European carriers jumped into these to collect into their hubs
The ME carriers jumped into MAN (in particular) to collect into their hubs
These regional fields provide great convenience and jobs
The chances of the Euro + ME carriers saying 'Oooh Goody, we can get dozens of new slots into LHR' are miniscule
The chances of the European LCCs wanting or getting slots is also miniscule
The chances of pax in the West Country, Midlands, North and Scotland saying, 'Oooh Goody, we can now go back to making a transit in LHR' are zero

For those of us in the South East we also have Eurostar / Eurotunnel and ferry ports. My closest is LTN but LHR is (in typical traffic) only 40/45 mins. I can get to STN, LCY and LGW if I want. So demand in the South East is, now, over provided. If you are near MAN, you can make a one-stop to a range of destinations that was unthinkable in 2000.

[Trinity 09L]

Skipness
"Just be honest and say you just don't want aeroplanes (aircraft) flying over the house you wanted to spend a quiet retirement in."
Honesty? lived in the same road for the past 24 yrs, no need for a retirement home.
Job creation? also requires housing, little available in the area, little connectivity further out for staff to work shift patterns.
Infrastructure cost not to be borne by HAL? so increased taxation on others, when HAL do not pay sufficient taxes.
Carbon offsets? so choke this area while trees grow elsewhere.
Why not close Northolt, the little air traffic can go to Heathrow, and free up a vast area for housing for job creation?

[Asturias56]

"i's essential to press on and provide the infrastructure for economic growth, within an agreed environmental framework."

Indeed but building a new horror at LHR just so BA can make money out of transit passengers doesn't really hack it does it?

[DaveReidUK]

That's a tempting argument against expansion (others are available :O), but it's actually a bit of a red herring.

I've never quite understood the "ban transfer traffic" preoccupation of campaigners.

Apart from the fact that it's a tad impractical to frog-march every arriving passenger to the Tube to make sure they don't board another departing flight, many routes from LHR are only viable by virtue of carrying transfer traffic.

[Dave Gittins]

On one occasion my BA DEN - LHR flight was delayed and the crew were scurrying about trying to determine what connecting flights could still be caught to advise PAX whether running shoes would help or whether they'd have to enjoy departures for a few hours or at worst overnight.

I was quite amazed how many EU nationals were transiting seemingly to every city in Europe and it was about 40% of them on a 747.

[KelvinD]

Looking at LHR traffic yesterday and today, I have a question: has the RAF gone into the charter business? Yesterday, an Air Tanker A330 left Brize Norton for Amsterdam and then flew Amsterdam to LHR, using the civil reg G-VYGM, aka ZZ342. It made the trip LHR to AMS today and is due back at LHR at 16:10. What piqued my curiosity was the flight is using a Titan Airways call sign, AWC009. Today, one of Titan's, G-ZAPX flew back from somewhere to LHR, (allegedly from Ascension but I don't believe that, given its previous call was at Accra and those flights usually overnight in the Canary Islands), using AWC809.

The Air Tanker flight from AMS must be carrying fresh air as it is due at LHR at 16:10 and scheduled to depart again at 16:30, so loading and unloading wouldn't figure in that brief turn around time. I wonder if G-VYGM is the aircraft painted in the special Boris's Union Flag camouflage scheme?

[Jn14:6]

The G-VYGxxxx aircraft are Air Tanker Ltd aircraft and are frequently leased to other civilian operators, eg; Jet 2, Thomas Cook (as was) etc. No it is not Boris-force one!

[Downwind_Left]

In recent days TUI have also been operating food/goods import charters to the UK as a result of the Channel port blockades.

787-8 G-TUIC has operated 5 Amsterdam-London Heathrow rotations over the last 3 days, positioning back to Gatwick from Heathrow at lunchtime today. Assume Air Tanker/Titan involved for similar reasons.

[Asturias56]

"I've never quite understood the "ban transfer traffic" preoccupation of campaigners."

It's not ban transfer traffic - it's that one of the main reasons given for expansion is to increase the national income - but if 30% of the users are only changing planes it doesn't exactly contribute much to the general pot...............

[DaveReidUK]

It comes to the same thing.

To quote from the website of one of the most prominent campaign groups: "expected future passenger demand can be met by substantially reducing transfers at Heathrow".

Strangely, no mention at all of how this objective would be achieved.

[PAXboy]

Most passengers have become aware of the lower costs to be acheived by a dog-leg route, rather than direct. The slew of online and 'apps' that search for flights show the cost savings. Many Brits use these and transit in mainland Europe. If the UK restricts transits here, then costs go up and the number of flights goes down. Not contributing to the UK in any way at all but the Brits have a long history of cutting off their nose to spite their face. Fortunately, I expect the current level of transits to remain and keep LHR full and in demand, even as the UK faces the outflow of companies due to Brexit.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Asturias56

It allows a borderline LHR-xyz route to be viable with connections, international travel is competitive, lot's of countries vying for your business and spending money. So, big spending Americans suddenly have a nonstop service to London without going via ATL or DFW for example and suddenly that Europe vacation goes to London and not Paris. That new European office comes to London and not Frankfurt. That attracts inward investment and create jobs.
The headbangers demanding, and it's always a demand, that transfer traffic be banned don't live in the real world economically. In an ever more connected world, in an ever more competitve world, we need to have one world class efficient and functioning hub airport. Let's aim to be Singapore rather than Montreal.

Mirabel. I mean, really, Mirabel.

[PAXboy]

Sadly, many companies have already moved departments to the EU, for all the obvious reasons. We had the advantage of speaking English that made us the natural European base for many companies around the world but we have thrown that away now. I cannot see many companies wanting to start up in Europe, base themselves in the UK. A branch office maybe.

But we'll know for sure in 10 years time.

[Asturias56]

" Let's aim to be Singapore rather than Montreal"


Singapore = 748 sq km

Canada = 9,985,000 sq km

[CabinCrewe]

Singapore year pax 2019-20
68 Million
Montreal
20 Million

[PerryOaks]

What's the current situation regarding the Terminal 1 buildings? Is the T1 baggage handling system still being used for T2? Demolition for the main T1 building must come eventually, but what's the plan leading up to that?

[Rivet Joint]

Does anyone know what's being built on the stands between terminal 2 and terminal 2A satellite building?

[lgwpave]

Currently an underground baggage hall and part of future tracked transit tunnel that will link T2A & T2B (Sat).
When complete, the 2 Kilo cul-de-sacs will be linked creating a through taxiway. 2 new stands will also be built on T2B.

[PAXboy]

With all that at T2, they can postpone the rebuilding of T1 for a couple of years.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Not quite, what's left of T1 is exactly where the buildout of T2 is going. There's a reason T2A has a blank black wall on the northern side, it's intended to be extended north into what was T1. So once T2 baggage is done, T1 can be demolished, although I have no view on the post COVID funding situation.

[davidjohnson6]

Is there anything that compels T1 to be demolished, apart from future intended usage of the land it occupies ? It's going to cost money to knock it down, and I'm left wondering if demolishing T1 can be deferred for a couple of years until LHR's traffic recovers enough that there is confidence new building work on the site of T1 will have a sufficiently high rate of return.

Perhaps money should not be spent on flattening what is essentially a disused building on a brownfield site in west London until somebody can come up with a business plan to make proper money from it

[Asturias56]

Sell it for apartments?

[Asturias56]

CC - you really are comparing Apples with oranges here Singapore 3 airports, Canada 500+ you have no choice in Singapore (for anything butt hat's another matter) but a lot of choice in Canada

[Rivet Joint]

lgwpave

Ah, thanks for confirming. I did wonder why the works were taking so long but clearly a lot is being done underground.

In terms of the T1 works, isn't the intention that the enlarged T2 would enable the closure of one of T3/T4? If so, then the works might make sense as there would be cost savings with fewer terminals. Of course at the moment T4 isn't needed anyway.

[Trinity 09L]

Is this work part of the wider plan for Heathrow East terminal, as shown in page of the document below. The plans show Heathrow East and West terminals connected by underground tracks.

https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/about/airports-commission/taking_britain_further.pdf

[lgwpave]

Trinity
The tunnels shown in that report are the existing Heathrow Express & London Underground routes.
The future plans for T2 fit into that overall masterplan - future additional satellite to the East, and others to the West. These will all eventually have underground transit connections.
I imagine that all of these plans will now be put on hold until things pick up again.

As for the demolition of T1, I understand that empty buildings attract Business Rates, whether in use or not, along with maintenance costs. I've seen this within industrial parks where empty buildings are demolished, and the sites left empty until a new client wants something new built.

[Trinity 09L]

Empty buildings do attract rates, so demolish. But remember, there is money in demolition, crushed concrete, steel, copper and other metals, sometimes they pay the owner to get the contract.

[AirLCY]

Looks like BA slowly moving the sun flying to LHR from LGW again for summer, my PFO and IBZ bookings both changed today

[southside bobby]

UK slot waiver extended through summer season.

[davidjohnson6]

I have a vague memory that Conservative party policy (possibly under David Cameron) towards airports, was that the overall number of operational airport runways should not increase. I'm assuming that Manston still *might possibly* return to seeing aircraft flying again....
If Coventry airport closes completely in favour of a Tesla factory, does that mean that there is room for Heathrow to have an R3 (albeit in 5+ years time once air travel demand returns)

[Asturias56]

there isn't a "national" plan for airports - closing Coventry has no impact on LHR in any meaningful use of the word.

[PAXboy]

No plans. From Reagan and Thatcher onwards "The market knows best and will produce what the customer wants."

Well, sometimes. But no planning does not permit planning for national emergencies and pandemics. Many companies moved to 'just in time' and 'provide for the average'. On the assumption that, when things were not normal, they could buy in or lease out spare cpacity. Unfortunately, Pandemics are beyond anything like that and having no plan at all, leaves us where we are in the UK. Other countries too. The key being that - there was ALWAYS going to be a massive financial crash, it was only a question of what would trigger it and when. Now we know.

[Charlie Roy]

https://www.boston.com/travel/travel/2021/02/22/united-boston-to-london-flights

United to start Heathrow to Boston.
I wonder if this is a reaction to JetBlue announcing London to Boston, or a part of a wider strategy...

[davidjohnson6]

Rumours in the Czech press that CSA might be about to fold. Do CSA / Smartwings own their LHR slots or are they leased from another airline ?
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/czech-airlines/csa-czech-airlines-has-announced-a-collective-redundancy-to-the-labour-office-430-jobs-threatened/

[STN Ramp Rat]

i don’t believe the slots have historic value attached to them so it’s academic in any case

[Rutan16]

They are using adhoc slots -they SOLD their own grandfather slots some years back and indeed prior to COVID when adhoc slots became available hadn’t served Heathrow for quite sometime
Indeed the London link was maintained by group company Smartwings into Gatwick.

[toon22]

Well done Heathrow. Any chance there might have been to see an end to the iniquitous APD charge of £26 on a return domestic flight in today’s budget was blown away by the airport’s decision to impose an additional £8.90 “infrastructure” charge with no notice or consultation. Just the excuse the Treasury needed to avoid change, the previous excuse being that changes were forbidden by EU rules.I hope BA and Loganair make their feelings felt, but I hate to think what effect the charge will have on demand for Loganair’s new services to Teesside. Who will be next? Manchester, Edinburgh?

[southside bobby]

APD will rise further on long-haul from April`22...long haul economy +£2 with premium economy,business & first class +£5 as announced in the Budget today notwithstanding the planned increase already set for next month.

[SWBKCB]

Hasn't Teesside still got its own charge on departures? If the route is that price sensitive, doubt it's got that much of a future.

[Trinity 09L]

I read elsewhere that Uganda Airlines are to fly from Entebbe to Heathrow using a A330-800 neo, is this likely, or a worthy service?

[DaveReidUK]

There's a fairly bullish assessment of the Uganda-UK market here: Uganda Airlines; where may make sense for its A330-800s? (https://www.anna.aero/2020/12/07/uganda-airlines-where-may-make-sense-for-its-a330-800s/)

[pabely]

Looks like Jet Blue could be landing at LHR soon, if correct LGW & STN won't be happy.

[toledoashley]

Likely to not have historical rights on the LHR slots though, but at least its a foot in the door.

[southside bobby]

Signals & ambitions have been there since JBU (perhaps with ulterior reasoning) first announced transatlantic planning tbh & MAG/LGW will be fully aware of the realities.
More interesting perhaps the posters above with the "news".

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Why would you choose STN over LHR if LHR was an option and you wanted to compete with the US majors? It's an absolute no brainer, the only upside at STN would be usage charges would be lower but so's the market.

[AirportPlanner1]

As Emirates have found, there is a market in avoiding LHR plus STN also serves the Cambridge corridor. Someone like JetBlue may have been ideal for that, but an irrelevance in the current climate

[southside bobby]

SOF...

There was I thinking I was being realistic & not looking for a rehearsal of the LHR v every other airport debate.

Are JBU really looking to compete with the US majors or something else?

[pabely]

Totally compete, that is what they do very successfully

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I have (as ever) no idea what you mean. JetBlue are looking to compete with the US major carriers, United, Delta and American, all of which exclusively use LHR. This immediately puts JetBlue at a competitive disadvantage in the London market against their competitors. This is the same reason WestJet continue to apply for LHR slots so they can more effectively compete with their own major carrier, Mapleflot, er...Air Canada.

It's all about relative competitve advantage, not something a market saturation pro like Emirates is too worried about as they've got the whole region covered all on their own metal.

[A340600MAN]

"LHR 10,143"

Hi, in the Luton thread the above figure is quoted for the number of movements for January 2021.

The figure equates to an average of approx 327 movements a day (approx 163 arrivals). Just out of interest would anyone know if the movements for March would be comparable? Are the number of movements currently stable or increasing/decreasing?

[DaveReidUK]

Just over 5.000 for the month to date as of yesterday - so no increase.

[WHBM]

Skipness One Foxtrot

JetBlue indeed are pretty unknown to UK travellers so would be expected to build up predominantly with US-origin business. These passengers, more than UK ones, would look for Heathrow services, for while UK passengers likely come from a wide range of home starting points, those from the US will be far more concentrated towards Central London hotels and business meetings. Unlike some other areas of the US, from Bermuda Agreement days, those from JetBlue's nodes of New York and Boston have little familiarity with Gatwick, and certainly not with Stansted, and will be appalled with how much a taxi costs, and how long it takes, from those to Park Lane. Americans tend not to do strange trains.

Same as UK-based carriers serving Oakland instead of San Francisco, with the former being a regular failure and them transferring over.

[tigertanaka]

Loganair applied for 138 weekly slots in the Heathrow summer 2020 slot lottery and got nothing. Presumably they applied for Teesside, IOM and NQY (lets say 20 slots each) and maybe also LBA (another 20 slots). Still only adds up to 80 slots so where else were they thinking of flying to?

Eastern Airways applied for 68 weekly slots and Easyjet Europe wanted 98 but were both also unsuccessful. Shenzhen Airlines were the only lucky ones with 4 weekly slots.

(I put this in the Teesside thread originally but it really sits better here).

[southside bobby]

In the latest JBU slot merry-go-round they have received none at LHR...sufficient for a daily transatlantic from LGW for Summer with another daily pair available later & have handed back the STN slots.

[pamann]

Are you sure about the ‘none’ at LHR part?

[tigertanaka]

This doesn't mean they won any slots out of the pool, these could have been purchased or leased from another airline. Just like JetBlue, Loganair did not appear on the initial coordination report either.

[VickersVicount]

JetBlue LHR slots (https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/jetblue-lhr-slots/)

[southside bobby]

Not known as yet whether the slots are permanent or awarded under temporary usage waivers.

Certainly though adds more to the JBU well known song & dance routines acted out with major decisions.

[BACsuperVC10]

tigertanaka

Would be great for them to bring back the LHR-LPL link

[daz211]

In my opinion and it’s only my opinion,

I think JetBlue should have chosen STN there is no competition and STN has more European routes for onward connections, LHR has far to much competition, JetBlue could have struck a deal with MAG and expanded from STN and introduced MAN somewhere down the line.

Maybe we could see Aer Lingus do the same and start at MAN and expand into STN.

[BHX5DME]

Jetblue want the premium traffic from Heathrow so Stansted wouldnt work.

[pabely]

Yes, can just see an American who booked a Mint Seat transfer onto a RYR flight!

[BAladdy]

According to the most recent slot allocation Loganair have been allocated 98 weekly.

Based on the schedule for mid July LM require 28 slots for IOM and 26 slots for MME.

When it comes to the other 44 slots, they are most likely to be used for a new NQY service. However some could also be used to transfer one of there LDY to STN or DND to LCY routes if they could get permission as they are PSO routes.

It is worth noting that Eastern Airways have in the LGW slot allocation report been allocated 54 weekly slots to fly to NQY. There are rumours that this is to operate a up to 4 x Daily service as part of a new PSO contract.

[daz211]

What people still fail to realise is Stansted has an extremely large amount of Premium passengers in its catchment area, people that still only see STN as a low cost Airport are the same people that said EK would NEVER come to STN and if it did it would never work.
Are you saying all premium business and first class passengers only live in LHR catchment are, I think many would be living closer to STN than LHR and only fly from LHR because they don’t have the choice.

[DaveReidUK]

I'm not sure who "you" is referring to, or indeed what point you are trying to make, but to suggest that the STN "catchment area" (however you define it) is comparable to LHR's is to ignore both geography and demographics.

[Rivet Joint]

why do you think airlines including B6 prefer to operate from LHR then? Do you think international passengers only end up in London? Do you think they rely on good onward connections? To benefit from codeshares and airline alliances? Not impossible that B6 would operate from STN but only if they could not from LHR.

[daz211]

DaveReidUK

I think you should read my post again, I never once suggested such a thing, that would be ludicrous, what I was saying STN has a big enough catchment of first business and premium passengers to sustain such flights, as they did before with MAXjet and eos in fact they were so popular that American was sent in to destroy them.
you can get a bigger brand than EK to prove that STN is very popular with premium passengers, who would have thought a twice daily EK was possible at STN and guess what before they offered STN flights them same passengers would have had to track round the M25 to LHR even though STN was much closer.
Which backs up what I was saying, a large amount of passengers traveling from LHR do so as it’s their only option and may well live closer to STN than LHR.

[southside bobby]

Certainly STN has the required catchment to support First Business & Premium which has been well proven.

The major problem for STN is the enduring legacy (at present) of "Fortress Heathrow" & Alliance "market cartels" furthering their own ends with lack of customer thinking/service & imagination.

Another clue in the JBU song & dance routine with award of possible temporary usage waiver slots is that both Bamboo & Westjet have also been awarded slots at LHR this Summer.

[SWBKCB]

EK at STN was an addition to their other London services. Having a single London destination as Stansted is a completely different proposition, especially for an American company with little profile in the UK, so expecting most of it's traffic to be originating in the US.

[Albert Hall]

Blimey, there are some delusional people here about the power of Stansted.

It absolutely hasn’t proven itself. Both Maxjet and Eos went bust. So did Silverjet at Luton even without any help from AA. And then so did Primera. No-one has gone near either market with a premium product for the better part of a decade.

If jetBlue can get access to LHR as they seem to have, it’s absolutely the right place for them to be.

[BHX5DME]

SWBKCB

Agreed - If EK could get more LHR slots they would be out of STN and maybe LGW very quickly

[inOban]

I'm not sure. The Sheikhs keep their horses at Newmarket.

[_aax1]

BHX5DME

I disagree, the fact STN was the fastest EK service to go double daily in its history just shows how successful that operation is.

Not everyone, nor is all the wealth of London and the South East near LHR.

[VickersVicount]

But would it have been the fastest had equal capacity gain been available at LHR?

[daz211]

Albert Hall

you have to be blind to not see that AA was sent to STN to push MAXjet and eos off their purchase, once this was accomplished AA pulled out.

As for Primera’s down fall, this was due to a delay in new aircraft delivery from Airbus and having National as a substitute to fly the routes.

Dont get me wrong I’m a realist and understand why other airlines will not allow Stansted to work but hopefully in the future MAG will learn from history and predict and manage dirty play by competitors.

I seen a post recently on FB which pointed out just how vulnerable and worried LHR LGW and Transatlantic flag carriers were a few years back when Ryanair started talking about Transatlantic flights with full first class service from Stansted, it would be very interesting to see what would have happened if this idea had developed.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The major problem for STN is the enduring legacy (at present) of "Fortress Heathrow" & Alliance "market cartels" furthering their own ends with lack of customer thinking/service & imagination.
This is demonstrably false. Any airline which has operated from STN and any other London airport has had commercial data to support staying or dropping. When American flew STN-ORD and STN-JFK they genuinely brought something new to the market and tried to make it work. The route would not have been dropped if it had held it's own in the market, it would have been a succesful niche addition supporting LHR in the London market, just like Emirates. Except the numbers of the STN-JFK compared to LHR-JFK didn't stack up and it makes commercial sense to funnel traffic over LHR. It was a strategic spoiler against Maxjet and EOS but make no mistake, if those numbers had been good, they'd have stayed. They were not.

There's too many on here that defend airports like football clubs, loyal to the death, hand on heart, that have never had their backsides handed to them on a plate because a business case they championed failed. (Still sore) It's business, not personal.

[southside bobby]

There it was I scheduled an hour but the inevitable mention of Maxjet & Eos arrived in half that time...such tired postings.

Also the first admission that the most recent AA operation was indeed a strategic spoiler & not a failure.

[southside bobby]

SOF...Really do not understand your last paragraph...at all.

You must forgive posters who also maybe slightly aware of STN ops who post with some realism & not shield behind personally interpreted analytics/theory to suit purpose.

[pamann]

Skipness One Foxtrot

But isn't this exactly what you've done for years with your beloved Heathrow?

Pot paint kettle black springs to mind.

[cavokblues]

daz211


Ryanair are incredibly shrewd and savvy. If there was a genuine viable money making opportunity for them doing Transatlantic at Stansted wouldn't they have done it already?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

pamann

I'm a marketing analyst, I go on the data we deal with. I support the UK having a functioning world class hub airport with global reach. If that makes me a "fanboy" in your book I can live with it. It's a very British local mindset we have where people think about "fair share of traffic distribution", many of whom have never worked in the brutal realities of a commercial environment.
I defer to Southside Bobby in his knowledge of Stansted. I am limited having used it numerous times over 15 years and watched as Continental tried and failed, American failed twice, Eos and Maxjet both collapsed but somehow I have an agenda. "Personally interpreted analytics" wins the WordSalad of The Day Award for Saturday.

Actually if STN was the hot commodity peope claim, AirUK would have made it work (I wish they had), Buzz would have been a triumph and Lufthansa and SAS would not only have stayed but built their networks. Good grief lads even easyJet struggled! Bottom line is, Ryanair and Stansted go hand in hand, it's that sort of airport. Think Oakland vs. San Francisco, Hahn vs. Frankfurt-Main. Use the place, love Ryanair, am NOT anti-Stansted, just realistic.

[southside bobby]

SOF...It won`t do...it won`t do.

This must becoming ever so slightly annoying for the LHR thread.

Perhaps come up on the STN thread then with the answers to the quiz below.

It is quite telling that a marketing analyst (always looking in the rear view mirror) can omit then the reasons for his listed "failures" at STN ? maybe it does not fit the personally applied spin perhaps.
As yes the agenda is LHR specific me thinks you gave much away over on the MAN thread.
Recently you appeared to be calling for the nationalization of BAW to save it or was that for LHR`s benefit...or for friends as indicated earlier?.
If LHR IS the right airport the gaps caused by severe BAW cutbacks or worse will/would be filled by other equally able airline services right?

Anyway...please fill in the gaps...
STN...
Continental...Reason for leaving was......
AA/ORD...Reason for leaving was.....
AA/JFK...Reason for leaving was...
Maxjet...One of the causes for collapse was.....
EOS...Causes of collapse were.....
Air UK...Causes for ultimate demise were...
Buzz...Similar question...
Blimey you have been going it on the historical front...Lufthansa...Reason for leaving.....
SAS...Same question applies but will accept varied answers as were back operating services before the pandemic...well given you a clue there.
Cannot believe you have included EZY too...Well go on then analysis please...give you a clue it was not a "struggle" as stated.

BTW...the "brutal realities of a commercial environment" are surely experienced by all workers...come off it!.

Apologies to the LHR thread.
Happy BST

[AirportPlanner1]

Elements of both sides are right or wrong.

There is a strong market for premium within the direct catchment of all London’s airports, certainly enough to sustain some basic routes. They all have wealthy catchments and high-value business. That is just fact and cannot be disputed. Heathrow ‘supporters’ are going to have to concede that one.

Stansted ‘supporters’ are going to have to accept many markets are both inbound and outbound, Heathrow will always have the advantage not just because of legacies and alliances but because it’s the most famous internationally. That doesn’t mean routes and airlines can’t work at STN (or LGW), but that for many of the airlines we’d be talking about overall they gain many advantages being at LHR. Sadly there aren’t too many that are able or could justify running two or more London routes, Emirates works because of the nature of the operation.

Whilst STN is considered by some inferior, there have been examples of airlines moving away particularly to LGW and finding it wasn’t the pot of gold in comparison they hoped for.

[c52]

If I were a frequent business flyer, I would choose an airline with a turn-up-and-go number of flights - imagine I live in NYC - if the traffic on the M4 is better than usual, I get home an hour earlier than on my booked flight. With one flight daily from STN, if the traffic on the M11 is a bit bad, I get to wait a whole day for the next flight my ticket is valid on.

[willy wombat]

southside bobby

Isn’t the answer to at least most of these “Stansted”?

[Local Variation]

c52

Depends who you work for. As a frequent business traveller myself working for a very big U.S Corp, the default travel setting on the internal booking system in the UK is LHR. A couple of years ago I did a lot of travel to the Nordics. Standard policy use LHR. Despite much cheaper travel elsewhere, eg RYR STN, approval was required to book STN and I couldn't be bothered waiting for that. Same with hotel bookings. When colleagues are coming in from the States, they will not look beyond LHR as the arrival point.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Last comment on this. Stansted exists in a London market which was dominated by the original London Airport from the 1940s. Gatwick and Stansted came much later as commercial airports for London and despite repeated government attempts to "level out" failed because London as an accident of empire and critical route mass of BA/BEA as well as the legacy long haul carriers like QANTAS, Pan Am, TWA et al marked out LHR as London's airport for long haul. Anyone from 1977 who flew from LGW on long haul was forced to by the British government when LHR was declared full. Branson stated that without the competitive advantage of LHR, VS would have collapsed in Gulf War 1.

Anyone repeating the mantra that LGW has a wealthy catchment area of Sussex and likewise Stansted with Cambridge is seeing one favourable point in isolation. But both airports are subsumed in the wider London market and most long haul into London wants Heathrow, as that puts you on a level playing field with the airlines you compete with because higher yields can be accomplished at LHR. LGW/STN can compete on price, which is why BA have a hand me down fleet with limited and now zero First offering in mainly leisure markets. The LHR/LGW thing is like Norwegian at Oakland, but even they realised that although they did well at OAK, to better compete in the market, they needed to be at the main airport, SFO. Given a 3rd runway at LHR, I suspect they'd have come to the same conclusion and moved from LGW to LHR. Likewise Westjet compete with Air Canada at LHR and in order to achieve this better they apply for slots at LHR and want to close LGW. China Airlines compete with EVA to TPE and in order to achieve this, they move from LGW to LHR. In the overwhelming majority of cases, almost none of the non UK long haul airlines at LGW in 2020 would choose to be there if they could be at LHR.

There are some key exceptions, EK and QR, and Cathay Pacific. But even CX won't be back until they're using all 5 of their LHR slots. So it's not about the Gatwick or Stansted catchment area, it's all about the London market. Aircraft are mobile assets. Here's a real example.

Delta
ATL-LGW x 1 no limited feed
ATL-LHR x 2 with feed
Outcome, the remaining LGW flight was moved to LHR as it was the lowest performing of the London services.

NWA
DTW-LHR and DTW-LGW operated side by side when NWA got into LHR and media said they were commited to LGW. As soon as performance could be compared LGW was closed.
US Airways
As NWA above

American
LGW-DFW closed and moved to LHR after 30 years without a second thought or a decent farewell. Have not looked back since.
STN-JFK was in my view a strategic spoiler to kill Maxjet /EOS but the point stands, they compared real data with STN-JFK against their competing/complimentary LHR-JFK and acted accordingly. If there had been a local goldmine of wealth that AA could have served out of STN, they would have stayed. The idea that they do as BA tell them is just something people like to say, much like at MAN. AA are big enough to tell BA where to go if it conflicts with their own commercial interests.

Continental
Served BRS and LGW.
BRS fell into the LHR catchment area due M4 corridor and was closed, the same aircraft flying 10 mins further made way more money. LGW was briefly hung onto but after decades was closed and moved to LHR.

All of these airlines serve long haul into London and can compare numbers between competing airports and came to the decision that the most competitive and profitable position to be in was to serve London's main airport and not one in West Sussex or Essex. It's about the long haul international market to/from London, less so about selected pockets of wealth around Cambridge and towards the South Coast. Heathrow DOMINATES the market in such a way that not being there puts you at a competitive disadvantage if you're elsewhere. JetBlue don't WANT to serve STN or LGW. Westjet don't want to stay at LGW. So outwith the honourable exceptions listed above, you need to compete in market as best you can, and for long haul, that's LHR.

Or maybe JetBlue will fly STN-JFK thrice daily and make millions of dollars. It could be the next big thing. Like MaxJet.

[PAXboy]

The M4 Corridor has been built up for over 50 years. Many international companies established their UK offices based on access to LHR. Domestic property in the LHR catchment carries a premium for some people who need regular access. Despite no R3, LHR still wins. Lots of folk don't like that but no UK govt has been able to change it,

[772]

Skipness One Foxtrot

true, good post.

for UK originating PAX their airport of departure is pretty much based on location to where they live, flight schedule and price, but as you say people flying INTO the UK want LHR, yourself and someone else recently made an excellent comparison with OAK/SFO, Brits want SFO yet when. I used to work at the airport, locals living in and around San Fran all said to me OAK is so much better, backs up the argument .

LGW for example has always been a waiting room for LHR, and Bermuda II skewed the picture for many years.

EK slightly different as they are (were)?! Feeding vast numbers of UK PAX through a huge hub

LGW, STN, LTN etc all serve decent catchment areas and vast majority of those Brits don’t care which they fly from as long as it’s near home and a good price/flight time but when it comes to people looking to fly to London, different story and also in someways because getting LHR slots is so hard it almost makes it more of a desire for an airline

[Asturias56]

Long haul pre coivd it was always remarkable how much you could save by avoiding LHR - you pay a BIG premium for using it

[tigertanaka]

772

I agree, good post. It seems some people cannot accept that Stansted will never be Heathrow.

[PAXboy]

The younger you are - the more likely you will use certain carriers for cheap s/h. Also that you will use bus or other means to get to a port that is further away but with a cheaper fare. Parents and friends might take you there. Once you have children - the price goes up (say 2+2) but you are also going to look for a closer port. Aged 18 with a rucksack, taking a coach or crashing on a friends sofa for a night to get a flight at awkward time of day to save money? Easy. With awo adults and two children? with a drive, then a flight, then a drive, noise and air pressure? That changes your priorities.Then, when children have left home and you get older, you might be able to afford to use the big local port, rather than a cheaper distant one.

For the last 40 odd years I have had LTN to the north of me and LHR to the south. LGW is a minimum 90 mins by car and STN about 65. Over the years, I have compared prices of travelling to all of these and on the railiway to BRX and take what is the best I can afford at that time. Lastly, as I get older, we can afford PE and C for long haul. There is one route we have planned and it only goes from LGW early in the morning, so we'll drive down the previous evening with a stay + park at a hotel. If that route was served from LHR - we would use it.

My preference is always LHR as I live close to it and the higher cost of going there is offset by the convenience. I expect that most people go through similar stages of life and calculations depending on their circumstances. There are SO many factors to consider that just saying one airport is good and two airports better (or whatever combination you like) is too simplistic.

[AirportPlanner1]

Asturias56

I don’t think this is correct, certainly not for long-haul. Are you comparing like with like? Non-stop is virtually always much more expensive than via somewhere. LHR has the majority of non-stop long-haul flights from the UK. So naturally it would be a lot more expensive. However most of the cheapest long-haul I’ve seen is also from LHR, because it has the bulk of the network carriers.

On short-haul the lowest fares of BA, LH etc don’t come close to FR in particular, so you don’t pay a premium in the true sense. I doubt people use LHR as a ‘treat’, they use it because it’s most convenient.

[Asturias56]

A couple of years back we went Business Class to Australia - via Emirates LHR was 25% higher than via Paris including the London - CDG leg on Eurostar

[southside bobby]

Not forgetting the oh so quietly introduced £8.90 charge for each passenger flying to any destination from LHR.
Referred to as a "UK Exceptional Regulatory Charge" it most bizarrely only applies to LHR.
LHR say the charge is helping to fund the baggage system,staff car parks & airline check in desks!!!
And posters have been known to complain about RYR & LCC policies.

[Vokes55]

Asturias56

Given that they were regularly filling six A380s a day, I'd say that's just supply and demand. APD is also £176 for long haul business class out of the UK. It's not a secret that business class fares are far cheaper from an origin in Europe.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

southside bobby

It's a rise in the airport charges to reflect the cost of doing business. If you're narrative makes any sense then STN will benefit enormously as traffic vacates LHR en masse. YYZ has the highest fees in the world and yet YHM still couldn't capitalise. There's an enormous hole in the balance sheet now, charges go up. If they go up too high, other airports will benefit. Not sure why you're objecting, less focus on one hub is what you want.

[Sotonsean]

It would be nice if we were discussing the recent slot approvals at LHR for new entrants rather than a childlike STN bashing.

Slot's for summer 2021 have been allocated to,

China Airlines (not returning to LGW) "no surprise there".
JetBlue (Boston and New York JFK)
SpiceJet (an extension to the airline's current slot allocation)
WestJet (in addition to remaining at LGW) "for the time being anyway".
As well as,

Uganda Airlines (already commenced)Vistara (an extension to the airline's current slot allocation)

JetBlue still have their LGW slots for summer 2021 but have returned their allocated slots at STN. It's yet to be seen if the airline intends to operate from both LGW and LHR.

Although I don't have a link the information was from ch-aviation.com posted on the 30 March 2021.
​​​

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

You mean Rwandair to Kigali via Brussels?
Stansted is a good airport with a great variety of destinations, I'm a fan of both STN and Ryanair and look forward to using it to the MAX. We're only disagreeing on likely potential, apologies to all.

[Sotonsean]

​​​​​​I'm aware of Rwandair to Kigali via Brussels. As we're all aware of, Rwandair won't be returning to LGW although I believe that it's the airline's intentions to eventually fly non stop to LHR from Kigali.

Uganda Airlines was expected to start Entebbe to LHR on the 28 March 2021 although it hasn't started yet.

Another airline that prior to the pandemic had announced it's intendion on returning to London is Air Tanzania. I'm sure we're be reading more about their intentions within the next few months and I should imagine that they will also be in a position to obtain slots at LHR for their Dar Es Salaam flights.

[southside bobby]

SOF

The latest tax at LHR is referred to as a "UK Exceptional Regulatory Charge" which is misleading is it not?

Yes it reflects "the cost of doing business" but is underhand in its description & of course will certainly help alleviate to a small extent any problems with LHR shareholder value & income.

Oh and LHR do it because they can even if they choose so to "hide" it.

[Asturias56]

Vokes55

yes - if you're willing to treat a night in AMS, Paris, DUB or Madrid as part of a holiday you can save a fortune

[wesleyscott]

I am interested to see what Westjet does.....the report said they are using the slots for Calgary and Vancouver from Terminal 2 and keeping Toronto & Halifax at Gatwick

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Long haul pre coivd it was always remarkable how much you could save by avoiding LHR - you pay a BIG premium for using it
Very true, the airlines will charge what the market will support and even with LGW and STN being an option to avoid higher prices at LHR this is still true.
Caveat being you can get some really good fares on routes with strong competition, LHR-JFK has price dumping in Y as the frequency is high to support the pointy end. Well, pre COVID anyway, God only knows what that'll look like soon, hopefully bounce back.

[WHBM]

The latest tax at LHR is referred to as a "UK Exceptional Regulatory Charge" which is misleading is it not?

As I understand it ...

LHR charges are set by the regulator, otherwise they would be in a monopoly position. In Covid, they have lobbied the regulator that they need to have increased charges to recover their loss in this period, which the regulator has accepted. I would not have. LHR will be in the best position to recover quicker than any other airport, as the slots will rapidly fill back up before anywhere else, including transfers from other airports, Gatwick in particular of course. Now if the Exceptional Charge had been levied at Heathrow, collected by the regulator and used to disburse to the other worse-off airports in compensation, I could see some merit in that. But no, it's going straight out of the door again to Ferrovial and their fellow-traveller investors who just saw Heathrow as a Cash Cow opportunity.

Has the Exceptional Charge been given a time limit, say one or two years?

[WHBM]

Next move in the Ferrovial money grab is to triple the fee charged to each taxi picking up at the airport

Heathrow to treble taxi pick-up fee from July | Financial Times (ft.com) (https://www.ft.com/content/676fef2d-1032-41cf-96d3-493107ad4191)

Given that the taxi trade has been decimated by Covid and the lack of passengers at the airport, plus the competition from Ubers who don't pay anything, it just seems mad. I would have thought they would want to support one of their business components and partners, not the opposite.

[Trinity 09L]

An accurate report, not behind a paywall. They are recovering the cost of taxi waiting sites. Hope they end up with a taxi boycott.
It also started a few years ago, banning local private hire vehicles collecting passengers, by insisting they go into a car park, min £3.50 +

https://londonnewstime.com/taxi-pickup-fare-from-heathrow-to-treble-from-july/185163/amp/

[WHBM]

Uber continue to pick up at the set-down areas for nothing. They just drive round and round, making a nuisance of themselves.

Regarding the black taxis, this is just exploiting a loophole in the regulations which a clever HAL beancounter has found. There is of course little operating cost in the taxi waiting area, but they can load the supposed asset value of the asphalt etc into the calculations, where the regulator requires them to charge only a fee to cover their costs. With next to no business this last year, they can claim a "loss" from the few taxis around, and thus "recover the loss" by tripling the charge.

If the regulator had any balls they would reject all this outright.

[Trinity 09L]

There has been a taxi waiting park as far back as 1975, pre HAL, Ferrovial have monetised it calling it a service. The current park is on waste land, no need for shops or office building. Re Uber, HAL told them to ring fence their communications to keep drivers away, to prevent this current action, and make them pay for parking.
You can park your car nearby in the west, in the green belt, much cheaper than any service commissioned by HAL.

[PAXboy]

May have been asked before: During the reduction to one operational runway, did HAL bring forward any runway maintenance to save time and money later? My guess is No.

[Musket90]

Yes - during the first lockdown 09R/27L was closed permanently for a few weeks to carry out significant maintenance. Now that work is complete it is routine maintenance on whichever runway is closed for the week, which makes planning these routine works a lot simpler..

[DaveReidUK]

The move to single-runway operations was driven by the reduced demand. The opportunity to do maintenance on the closed runway was a consequence of that.

[CabinCrewe]

T3 being readied for full action as of third week in May..
Wonder if the T5 One-Worlders will stay put ?

[brian_dromey]

I'm sure Virgin will be pleased to be able to offer their own ground experience, upper class wing, etc to their passengers at T3.

I think the plan was for AA to move to T5 even before COVID, so I doubt that they will move back, there was some talk of an AA, new BA or dual-branded lounge at T5C and a refurbishment of the lounge complexes at T5, but that has all gone quiet. The other one world lounges at T3 were Qantas and Cathay. Qatar and Malaysia were at T4, no sign of that terminal opening, so quite a lot of displacement still, even with T3 reopening.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I think American really want to be in T5 but in normal times, as per summer 2019 they have 21 heavies per day and even BA were split between T3 and T5. Now I know it's all metal neutral and Iberia have been co-located at T5 for years but with BA Gatwick drastically downsized until next summer at the earliest, will BA not want to run one single terminal operation rather than split ops in T3? BA also ran long haul flights out of T3 with MIA, DEN, PHX and LAS alongside ACC, NBO,CPT and YVR.

Options :
AA split ops T3/T5 with JFK plus key others in T5, remainder in T3
AA move everything into T5 leaving BA to move some of their own flights to T3 or LGW

Neither is tidy but I suspect HAL will move all of AA into T5 as BA are moving to T8 at JFK and there's give and take on both sides.

[772]

Would think the focus on what routes operate from T5 will centre around connections. If BA/AA feel having AA in T5 suits feed for both airlines I’d expect them to stay.

much of the ex LGW services had minimal feed so. I would think it makes sense to focus on the LGW at T3 along with, space depending, ex T3 routes for the same reason

can’t see AA or HAL favouring splitting AA’s operation across two terminals then possibly see how things go and then assess whether LGW is required for summer 22

as a side note, I wonder if the slot waivers are extended thru winter 21/22 or not, or at least partly reintroduced to say 50/50 rather than 80/20

[WHBM]

Isn't there some planning permission regulation on the annual passenger throughput of T5, x million per year, which was behind BA's split operation (and when one was brought in from T3, sending another one the other way to balance), rather than pushing for the third satellite to be built.

[nguba]

The reopening of T3 has been pushed back:

London's Heathrow Airport has delayed the planned reopening of Terminal 3 due to "ongoing uncertainty" over rolling travel restrictions imposed by the UK government.T3, which was shuttered in April 2020 as the coronavirus pandemic made its first sweep around the world, was previously slated to welcome back selected airlines and passengers from May 17, with Virgin Atlantic and Delta Air Lines among the first to return.

That timeline has now been pushed back to at least the end of May, with early June also considered a realistic restart.
https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/london-heathrow-terminal-3-reopening-delay

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Any view on when dual runway ops are expected to return?

[Musket90]

Only when planned movement levels dictate. I seem to remember from the first lockdown a figure of 450 - 500 daily movements was the trigger. Even then dual ops may only be for part of the day.

[highwideandugly]

Anyone know or can guess when all the fill in slots will be reclaimed by their owners?

Concerns over the Teesside Heathrow Loganair route...last months figures show an average of 2.8 passengers per flight...

Do Loganair or the parent slot filler pay the landing fees?

[DaveReidUK]

Musket90

The last 12 months have seen periods of full segregated dual runway operations and periods of single runway ops. I can't see any scope for mixing the two modes on the same day.

[Musket90]

Thanks Dave - When the 09R/27L works were being carried out last summer and traffic levels increased didn't they operate dual until 2000hrs then revert to single ?

[DaveReidUK]

Heathrow's normal mode of operation (pre-pandemic) is to switch to single-runway operations after the last departure, until 06:00 local the following morning.

You are correct in that the switch to SRO can happen earlier if runway works are planned, but I didn't think that was what we were talking about here.

[davidjohnson6]

A few weeks ago, the CAA told Heathrow that airport charges could rise about 30 pence per pax, considerably less than what LHR had hoped for
I just bought a ticket (yesterday) out of LHR to Glasgow for June in cheapo class, and see an £8.90 airport cost recovery charge.

I'm guessing it goes to LHR, but wondering how it's allowed when the CAA granted just a 30 pence rise

And no, I don't intend to rack up a phone bill and spend hours talking to a call centre just to be given some corporate PR waffle

[southside bobby]

Issue first raised Heathrow Post #135 on 30.3.21...Slipped in unnoticed as a "UK Exceptional Regulatory Charge" but only applying to LHR!
Behind the deliberately misleading wording effectively you are paying to maintain staff car parking/check in desks & fixed facilities & functions the very wealthy owners of the airport should of course be providing & funding themselves.

The reality of this additional privilege to use LHR will only now become evident as travel begins to reopen slowly...Enjoy.

[NickBarnes]

Heathrow along with Gatwick have been chosen as Jetblue's London Airports

1x daily to JFK from 12 August

[VickersVicount]

Terminal 4 for red list arrivals?

[PAXboy]

It's going to be T3 for Red from 1st June.
Heathrow Airport will open a dedicated terminal for passengers arriving from countries with a high risk of Covid. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57206018)

[Asturias56]

They're claiming " it will be very challenging to reopen..>"

getting their excuses in first?

[VickersVicount]

its only T3 temporarily until T4 arrangements are made. T4 will be the main red list zone thereafter.

[BA318]

This doesn’t really work though. A lot of people will connect in Germany, Amsterdam, Paris etc so you’ll still end up with red list passengers mixing with others.

[jmdavies86]

Jazeera Airways is due to launch a weekly direct KWI-LHR flight from next Friday (18th Jun).

J9005 - depart KWI 0940; arrive LHR 1415
J9006 - depart LHR 1515; arrive KWI 2330

The carrier plans to increase frequency “as travel restrictions ease"; flights will be operated using A320neo aircraft with Economy fares starting from £802rtn.

Source: Business Traveller (https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2021/06/11/jazeera-airways-to-launch-heathrow-kuwait-service/)

[spacedog]

Not sure they will be around too long one that route when KU/BA economy fares are in the region of £400-450 rtn. Rather fly on a wide body than a single aisle for a 6 hour sector.

[Rutan16]

Not that old chestnut and nonsense again

[Jn14:6]

Can anybody on here please give an update on the border control queues? Have they returned to any semblance of normal yet? T5 in particular.

[BA318]

I’ve still heard reports and seen pictures of anything from 10 minutes to 4 hours. Seems to completely depend on time of day and how BF are feeling. Sometimes E gates are open other times it’s queues and waiting.

[Jn14:6]

Thanks 318.

[davidjohnson6]

T3 to reopen later this month
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/britains-heathrow-airport-reopens-terminal-3-ahead-travel-pick-up-2021-07-05/

[ATNotts]

I am genuinely intrigued. How does this fast tracking system for BA and VS passengers that are fully vaccinated not make the UK Border Agency complicit with not treating all passengers, from all airlines equally which surely ought to be one of the fundamental rules for any border agency. If The fast tracking system was available to all carriers, should they wish to participate, that would be fine and dandy, but that isn't what the article implies.

If I were Air China, or say, United, I would be mightily miffed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57743038

[Asturias56]

" UK Border Agency complicit with not treating all passengers, from all airlines equally which surely ought to be one of the fundamental rules for any border agency."

But they've been fast tracking Business Class passengers for years

[ATNotts]

Have they? As I have never travelled through LHR in business class, and have avoided the place for the best part of 3 decades I was blissfully ignorant.!! But would I be correct in assuming that business class passengers on all carriers can avail themselves of the fast lane? I use Eurotunnel regularly, and priority customers can jump the queues there but only to the point when they encounter immigration, at which point the sit in the same queue as the rest of us plebs, though they have probably pushed their way in further up the queue.

[Hartington]

I thought BA and VS were participating in a trial of fast tracking. Therefore, if it works, the other airlines will be invited to participate.

[Rivet Joint]

Does anyone know when the works between T2 and its satellite are meant to be completed and the taxiway between the two finally fully opened? Seems to have been taking years to complete. Looks to result in the gain of 4 new stands and of course save a lot of fuel as planes won’t have to go the long way around any more.

[G-ARZG]

ATNotts

Nope, not all carriers subscribe (ie pay for) fast track access for their front-end punters.
​​​​​

[Asturias56]

Most do ...... its one of the best reasons to pay the extra

[BA318]

Regarding immigration it’s usually only long haul flights where the carrier paid for fast track.

for Security, almost every carrier offers it - at T2 the fast track is branded with Star Alliance logos so all those carriers get it.

[nomilk]

Asturias56

You mean airlines pay for most airports. LH might pay for LHR, but might not pay in a destination where they have only a small number of business passengers (or whatever other reason the airline might deem a good reason to save on the fees).

[Sotonsean]

Rivet Joint

I do hope that someone eventually answers your question as it's something that I have asked several times. Like yourself I'm awaiting for someone to respond 😉

[DaveReidUK]

I suspect the answer is buried somewhere in the 600 pages of this document: Heathrow Airport H7 Revised Business Plan (Detailed) December 2020 (https://www.heathrow.com/content/dam/heathrow/web/common/documents/company/about/economic-regulation/RBP-detailed-plan.pdf)

Good luck. :O

[Rivet Joint]

Ok pass ha ha.

[CabinCrewe]

those Border control queues look horrific even before reopening… Shapps saying the problems will be abroad at the other end… ?
Not sure anyone can complain when they’ve been warned… #ViralHotbed

[PAXboy]

BBC news reports from discussion on Radio 4 'Today' (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57775800)
Lucy Moreton, the Immigration Service Union's professional officer, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the government needed to recruit more Border Force workers to cope with the increased demand. Ordinary passport checks took two to four minutes per person, she said, adding that those involving the Covid-related documents increased this to eight to 12 minutes.

"At the moment we are seeing peak-time queues somewhere in the one-to-two-hour mark, where we have got several aircraft that arrive at the same time," Ms Moreton added. She told the BBC News website that larger passenger numbers would further slow checks and create airport queues "three times longer" than at present.

In response, Mr Shapps admitted travel would "be more disrupted than it was back in 2019", but the issue was "going to be on the check-in side rather than the border side" at Heathrow and elsewhere.

[22/04]

Not sure anyone can complain when they’ve been warned

No but they can be put off travel in the first place.

[BA318]

CabinCrewe

You still have a right to complain about poor service. Just because everyone says it’s going to be a poor service doesn’t make that acceptable. The rest of the world seems able to run their airport without hour long queues and still apply restrictions on who is entering.

It’s theatrical. Long queues mean the public will think there must be tough checks going on and it looks like they are being tough in the daily mail.

[lgwpave]

Rivet Joint

Latest estimate is Summer 2022.
A lot of the work has been below ground, which is now complete.
All work has been interrupted/delayed due to Covid and resultant drop in traffic.

[Rivet Joint]

Interesting, thanks for clarifying. Amazed they don’t want to get it done just to help ops.

[PAXboy]

Currently many types of building material are at elevated prices. I guess it will depend on the what the contracts say about finishing on time and paying more - or it not being so urgent to finish the project.

[Trinity 09L]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57804447

Heathrow getting busy, but the staff are still isolating.

[CabinCrewe]

Im fast losing sympathy for anyone entertaining a visit to LHR… if you go not expecting hours of queuing and high risk of asymptomatic covid transfer, you are way braver than I.
And why are people surprised its chaos?

[BA318]

Why can the rest of the world seemingly manage? US airports have rebounded and seem fine.

Not everyone has the option to stay home indefinitely. Even at the peak lots of had no option but to travel weekly - now nearly 18 months on, people have affairs which need sorting - people haven’t seen their families, some of whom may be sick or not long left or need help with their children etc. It’s not always Mr and Mrs Smith off to Malaga.

And have you seen the results of the day 2 testing? Barely anyone from Green and Amber countries has tested positive. You have more chance of catching covid in the queue at Tesco than you do at Heathrow.

[Trinity 09L]

HAL back to both runways, traffic numbers accelerating?

[DaveReidUK]

Yes, gradually.

Average daily movements:
May: 374
June: 455
July to date: 512

[Buster the Bear]

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/296358/cyprus-airways-plans-year-round-heathrow-route/

[Musket90]

This taxiway work with closure of two exits for runway 09R/27L may also be a factor for introducing dual runway ops
ttp://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/misc/SUP/EG_Sup_2021_032_en.pdf

[Trinity 09L]

Well they won’t do the work on 09L so it can be used for alteration of runways ☹️

[Max Angle]

And just to encourage passengers back to LHR!

https://www.heathrow.com/transport-and-directions/terminal-drop-off-charge

[Asturias56]

Simple greed, nothing else

[PAXboy]

I have noticed numerous companies trying to claw back some of their losses. We went to a restaurant for the first time a couple of weeks ago. The prices were riduclous, service slow and food very average. This kind of action will start pushing at inflation.

LHR are probably saying that it is to encourage people to use public transport. A week ago I took my partner's daughter and son in law to T5 to visit his parents in Madrid. They could have taken a taxi (some 30 miles), a taxi, a train and then a coach or other permutations. They would have difficulty doing that for an 05:30 check in! Even if it had not been the case that she is four months pregnant.

So many companies have such high levels of debt and shareholders demanding returns. But this is what a financial crisis looks like.

[nomilk]

Probably not "clawing back some of their losses", but having to pay more to get any staff willing to work. With less staff service will be slow, food not so good (chefs have more choice than ever picking their employer), and with rising food prices and salaries expensive. Small family businesses willing to exploit themself might be the "winners". I wish them luck and the means to have the occasional weekend off.

[Trinity 09L]

This is not clawing back money. They are cutting back on emissions, in the CTA etc, and just moving it another space which they do not monitor.
Don’t worry about pick up, you are still forced to use their car parks, so a ridiculous situation might occur, where it is cheaper to go in the arrivals car park drop off, pax walk a bit further, and you keep dry. Wait for the price hike to match🤣

[PAXboy]

I have used Arrivals for Departures and vice versa at several of the terminals over the years. It depends on the day and time of day. Before mobile phones you had to agree in advance. Now it's easy.

[GeeRam]

PAXboy

Yes, its all to do with discouraging car travel into the airport, and was actually due to be brought in just before Covid hit, as there were notices going about in late 2019 about it when I was working at T2.

[wiggy]

And yet not long ago

they were planning to axe free bus travel around the airport perimeter (https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2020/11/19/heathrow-suspends-free-travel-zone/)

I haven’t had reason to use the buses around the airport this year…I assume it actually did get axed…

[Trinity 09L]

They have already axed subsidies to local non tfl bus companies, which staff used. On top of that Slough Council, took as much they could from HAL coffers, and now in serious £££ trouble.

[wiggy]

Thanks for the update.

I heard about Slough being in difficulties..:E …Sorry to hear about the bus services, I was a frequent user between T5/central area and one or two of the perimeter hotels until this all kicked off.

[PAXboy]

The Guardian reports:
Heathrow airport has called on the UK government to open up travel for fully vaccinated passengers as it said its losses caused by the Covid-19 pandemic had reached almost £3bn.

The airport reported a £868m loss for the first half of 2021 and said restrictions and expensive testing requirements were hindering the UK’s economic recovery. Its total losses since the start of the pandemic stand at £2.9bn.
If they have also:
They have already axed subsidies to local non tfl bus companies, which staff used.
I do think they will grab every pound they can.

[willy wombat]

While sympathetic to an extent, look at the whopping dividends LHR paid out to its shareholders in the good times. Maybe keeping a bit more in reserves would have been smarter.

[PAXboy]

Indeed willy wombat but in the last decades the shareholder has become king. Not to mention that, payouts to shareholders also mean payouts to the CEO and those with their feet under the big table. In the last 35 years, the stock market has gone right back to the casino age, with predictable results.

[Trinity 09L]

Could not be bothered to spend on taxiways to allow northern to be used for departures ☹️

[WHBM]

The £5 dropoff charge is not administered by a ticket man at a gate, but only by online payment, the most inconvenient for the casual visitor of all.

For those who have not encountered them, such schemes (as you get at car parks etc) are run by just a handful of organisations, typically from a PO Box number, with all contact in writing, no phone number or emails. They have hard-sell sales teams offering their "services" to anyone with a car parking area, who won't take No for an answer. They typically make a great play about all the money they collect will be passed on to the owner, Heathrow here, because what they really want is those who haven't paid, who they levy huge penalties on which they pocket themselves, which ratchet up by the week, with bailiff action to follow if unpaid. That is what makes them the real money, via an automated process. It's how to hack your customers off, 1.01, all worked around weasel words such as "preventing congestion", "saving space for real customers", etc.

If the manager responsible won't entertain them their sales team then worm round to find directors etc, where they can imply that the manager is "leaving money on the table". I'm sure Heathrow has been in their sights for ages.

If Grant Schapps had any spine he would have squelched this pronto.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Every major airport in the UK does this. Most major town centre parking is similar. Many Tesco car parks use the same setup. It's literally part and parcel of our daily lives, and with the size of the hole in their finances, it is clearly not responsible for HAL to be the only major airport NOT to do this. Personally I'd use the short term car parks and say a proper goodbye, and yes you do have to pay. But guys, aviation is in a viscious circle given where we are, I don't agree with anyone charging just to drop off but they can and they do. It's the same business model of un-bundling that means you can get a super cheap seat if you don't care about where you sit or check a bag. It's not greed at all, it's not like they're making enormous amounts of money.....

[CabinCrewe]

Will they drop it when they get back to these dizzy heights?
”In the fiscal year ending December 31, 2020, Heathrow Airport reported just over 1.1 billion British pounds in revenue” (and around 153M profit)

[WHBM]

It's the same business model of un-bundling that means you can get a super cheap seat if you don't care about where you sit or check a bag...
Possibly you didn't notice that the "super cheap seats" are in fact much the same cost as formerly with seat allocation and/or bags. Or they don't exist when you (or anyone else) wish to travel. There was even an industry insider here not long ago who proposed unbundling the EU261/2004 overbooking compensation if you hadn't paid extra for it as a form of insurance, until a few of us explained it.

[PAXboy]

I agree that the 'unbundled' price scheme is now accepted across the UK. I often refer to this method by using the name of a well known LCC ... The car industry has used this for years and steadily moved the 'striking point' as low as they can. We will not see a return to a fully bundled pricing scheme for many years - although it WILL happen. But, for the moment, we already have 30 years worth of customers used to this way of pricing.

We see the same method used by politicians with what are now called stealth taxes. They do not want to increase basic tax rates but need to raise more tax, so they charge for things that were previously free. Local govt have been forced down the same path.

[LGS6753]

Except of course, there are some industries busily bundling up, like Sky TV and all the tour operators who sell "all inclusive" holidays.

[Rutan16]

Or indeed this industry where fully bundled fares are extensively available from all legacies, especially from Heathrow in Business cabins and even fully flexible economy (Often the same price !)

[highwideandugly]

General slot query..as the airport/country opens up ..especially after today’s announcement..what happens to all the “fill in slot occupiers” that have been allocated over the last few months ?

Surely B777s are worth more than small emb type aircraft?

[BA318]

Depends on the agreements I guess. Still a long long way to go before LHR needs them all back. There was talk before of BA leasing out slots for three years. It’s usually by season at the least.

[JobsaGoodun]

According to the revised slot rules introduced as a result of the pandemic, slots returned by historic operators were protected. Although any return opened availability to new operators, such reallocation will have been temporary, on a season by season basis. The new operator is likely not to have been able to claim a rolling guarantee to access such slots in the future.

[WHBM]

There must be a division between those who will sometime in the future come back to using their slots (eg BA, who will always use everything they can at Heathrow), and those who are deciding they will never come back.

Those who are relinquishing, wholly or partially, services at Heathrow, have for years now sold them on to other operators wanting to come. Quite a number have put a (somewhat notional, but substantial) value on these, which they regard as part of the value of their business. How is this going to work ? If they don't come back have they lost this value ? If they come back for just a short time and then sell the slots is that OK ? Is this a new form of slot sitting ?

[GBOAA]

Anyone know if Shenzhen Airlines are coming back?

[LGS6753]

Blue Air of Romania will operate LHR-Nice from 16th Sept, 4x pw (Thu, Fri, Sun, Mon)

[AirportPlanner1]

Is that using the bmi remedy slots?

[BA318]

I think it’s just using the short term corona slots. Same as it’s recent routes to Bucharest and somewhere else in Romania.

[DaveReidUK]

Blue Air currently operate from LHR direct to 3 Romanian destinations: Bucharest, Cluj and Iasi.

[GBOAA]

Saw a Sky Express NEO departing to Athens today. Another short term visitor?

[DaveReidUK]

Daily except Saturdays, started at the beginning of August.

[GBOAA]

Thanks. I've clearly not been paying attention!

[davidjohnson6]

New routes with BA from July 2022 to the Azores - 1x weekly to Ponta Delgada (Sat) and 1x weekly to Terceira (Sun)
Based on the climate of the Azores (best weather is June-August), and the likelihood for this route to attract those who are retired (or at least don't have children under the age of 18), I'm wondering if this route should perhaps be started in June instead

[Tartiflette Fan]

"Holland-Kaye, Echave and the rest of Heathrow’s management board remain under extreme pressure from shareholders to squeeze the airlines for money. The airport has avoided defaulting on its mammoth debt pile by gaining waivers on lenders. The fear is, however, that bondholders’ patience will only last so long.

Under the proposals, landing charges for flights to destinations outside of Europe will almost double in 2022 (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/04/27/heathrow-passengers-hit-300m-airport-charge-hike/) from £38.33 per passenger this year to £67.86."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/09/20/heathrows-sky-high-hikes-risk-doubling-cost-flying/

There are also extra charges proposed to be levied per tonne of freight. The article says the debt amounts to £20 Bn

[Link Kilo]

There's already a Heathrow thread. Perhaps better to post your information in that thread rather than start a new one.

[vectisman]

Should such an increase occur, I anticipate some airlines looking more closely at London Gatwick!

[Tartiflette Fan]

You mean everything from parking charges to complaints of food quality to doubling of flight handling charges just gets tossed into "Heathrow" ?

[WHBM]

Surely Heathrow landing charges are regulated. It's up to the Dept of Transport to control any excessive charging for the benefit of Spanish shareholders.

[BA318]

Landed at LHR about 20 minutes ago. We’re now sat on the taxiway because the entire UK immigration system has gone down. Apparently the Terminal is full and we’re not even allowed to park at the gate.

[fjencl]

54mins ago news reported following Thousands of passengers arriving at UK airports were hit by delays on Friday after a technical problem disrupted self-service passport gates.

Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester and Edinburgh airports all reported problems with the e-gates.

But a Home Office spokesperson said the problem was quickly identified and had now been fixed.

[Asturias56]

See the CAA have really cut down LHR's attempt to raise the per passenger levy to £ 44.

[vectisman]

Yes, but the proposed increase is still high considering the current situation. You can understand why BA is keen to restart short haul at Gatwick and gradually expand its long haul offering there too as we emerge from the pandemic. Some other cash strapped airlines may also be thinking about how competitive Heathrow is for them in these difficult times.

[Asturias56]

For long haul paid out of the Asturias piggy bank we rarely use LHR anymore - it's just awful value