UK to EASA

[airpasty]

So I’ve been waiting for some paperwork from the UK CAA which has taken about a month longer than expected. It’s looking like I’ll miss the 4th of September deadline from the IAA to get and EASA licence conversion.

Are there any other authorities that are known to be quick with conversions?

Thanks!

[Globally Challenged]

Presumably your employer restricted you to a UK licence? That sucks. Everywhere I’ve worked (with G ref) has been happy with any EASA licence (perhaps wouldn’t all have paid for the transfer but they wouldn’t have objected ).

[747ANC1]

After Brexit 2021, will g-ref aircraft company accept the EASA ATPL holder applying for a job?

[Mcflyer101]

Does anyone know how the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet will deal with Brexit after the transition? As far as I know FR uses Irish reg aircraft in U.K. Those planes will have to become g-registered and only be flown by pilots with U.K. licenses. I guess the same would apply to any other operator that has a U.K. base??!!

[TommiW]

Ryanair already has at least one G reg aircraft and last year, they had a UK AOC granted for this eventuality. With regards crewing, the UK CAA have already said they will accept EASA licences for up to 2 years after the transition period. Also, there is nothing stopping EASA license holders from getting a UK licence and holding it alongside their EASA license (again the CAA have said a simple process will be put in place next year). If done correctly, I can't see any short term manning problems for the likes of Ryanair.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like it will work the other way round and UK CAA licences won't be recognised at all by EASA next year.

[CW247]

Also, there is nothing stopping EASA license holders from getting a UK licence and holding it alongside their EASA license

We are are almost certainly headed for a no deal Brexit. A European holding a UK license is one thing, but working rights (to fly a UK registered aicraft) will be another matter.

[Superpilot]

the UK CAA have already said they will accept EASA licences for up to 2 years after the transition period. Also, there is nothing stopping EASA license holders from getting a UK licence and holding it alongside their EASA license (again the CAA have said a simple process will be put in place next year).


Not so fast....where is all that stated?

The current working assumptions for the UK CAA's Brexit stance are clearly stated here:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1060x2000/screenshot_20200830_075922_firefox_c79cdf56e199d6ed0b315e8c7 0da50ee215f9787.jpg

[TommiW]

I now can't find the text about the 2 year grace period, so I'll happily retract that.

There are some Q and As here (https://info.caa.co.uk/brexit/commercial-pilots/) on the CAA website. Close to the bottom is an answer about EU state issued commercial licenses being used on G reg aircraft...apparently just an online form is required to allow you validate and fly G reg. Admittedly "conditions apply", and I'm not sure exactly what those will be

Point taken about working rights though, that's another matter

[Magpie32]

airpasty

The 04/09 (today) deadline is for those pilots who require EASA continuity on 01/01/21. You can still apply to IAA after 04/09 and before 31/12 and the application will be processed but the exchange of licences may happen in early 2021.

Austrocontrol have a different approach where the application must be completed by 31/12/20, after which they can then no longer convert a third country UK licence. Last I spoke to them they advised me to look elsewhere as their current demand sees them busy upto 31/12.

Lots of states are honouring applications as long as they are made in 2020. There is no real way of speeding up the process by carefully choosing a quieter state as one of the major bottle necks is the UK CAA.

[Alrosa]

LorisBatacchi

Some operators with a UK base are requiring British passport holders to apply to convert their UK EASA licences to an EU EASA licence and will have them apply for a UK validation in January 2021 (and shortly thereafter, a UK licence which will sit alongside the EASA licence. ) This will allow British passport holders to fly both G- registered and EASA-registered aircraft based in the UK. I can think of one operator with a UK base that is doing exactly this.

The legal right to live and work in the UK or EU (as appropriate) remains a valid concern - the UK currently seems to be more flexible with regards to this question than the EU. We will see !

[back to Boeing]

We are are almost certainly headed for a no deal Brexit. A European holding a UK license is one thing, but working rights (to fly a UK registered aicraft) will be another matter.
unless they already have settled or pre settled status which many many eu nationals will

[Emkay]

Regarding IAA - are you able to link to any material which confirms that IAA will still process applications submitted after the deadline?

[Mcflyer101]

IAA website just acknowledges that applications may not be processed after the 4th. You can still try and see what they say!

[Magpie32]

Emkay

From an email conversation I had with licencing personnel at IAA

Q: Are the IAA still anticipating that UK applications received through the post on or around 04/09 to still be processed and issued with an Irish EASA licence in late 2020 / early 2021?

A: That is correct. Whilst the IAA will continue to process change of SOLI applications for UK licences received after 4th September 2020, the 12+ week turnaround of such applications means that it is unlikely that the exchange of licences will occur before the end of the year. This will obviously be an issue for pilots who need the surety of an EASA licence to continue flying in early 2021. For those pilots not using an EASA licence at present, the timings will be less of an issue.

[Alex Whittingham]

The statement that the UK will accept EASA certificates for up to 2 years now appears here (https://info.caa.co.uk/brexit/approved-training-organisations/) under the second and third questions. In answer to Q #2 we have "EASA has stated previously that it would accept third country applications from UK Approved Training Organisations. Organisations would need to decide whether, on the basis that the UK’s membership of the EASA system ceases at the end of the transition period and if there is no mutual recognition of safety certificates between the UK and European systems, they would wish to retain both a national and an EASA approval. The CAA intends to continue to recognise current (and valid) EASA certificates for an initial period of up to two years, but no decision has been made about ongoing validity after this period." and to Q #3 "Yes. your training will be recognised for up to two years after UK participation in EASA ceases if you are training with at an ATO or DTO located outside the UK which had their Approval Certificate issued prior to the end of the transition period and which continued to be valid during the training period.". They also now say, as Alrosa says above, that an "EU issued Part-FCL" licence holder will need a UK CAA validation to fly a G reg aircraft.

The actual rule seems to come from a statutory instrument SI 2019/645, Schedule 3, para 2: "2.—(1) Subject to paragraph 3, any other licence, certificate or approval issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency or by the national competent authority of an EEA state which continues to be in force or effective on or after exit day by virtue of Part 3 of Schedule 8 to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, is— (a) to continue to be in force or effective on and after exit day for the remainder of its validity period up to a maximum of 2 years (subject to any earlier suspension or cancellation by the CAA); and (b) to be treated as if it were issued by the CAA. (2) This paragraph applies only to documents issued under Regulation (EU) No 2018/1139 and EU implementing Regulations made under it."

[QAKJ]

Slightly off topic but wondering if anyone could help.

the IAA have recently told me that they can’t complete my SOLI transfer since I don’t have any current rating. Apparently you need at least one current rating to have the licence issued and compete the transfer process.

Does anyone know any SOLI that accepts transfers without current ratings?

[fast cruiser]

Pardon my dim question, but AFTER Jan 1st 2021, can we not apply to any other EASA Member State for an EASA ATPL and also run your UK ATPL in parallel?

Surely having 2 licenses (UK ATPL and EASA ATPL) is the best option.

Just wondering why people keep talking about transferring when this might be another option.

pea size brain back below parapet. :}

[Googlebug]

fast cruiser

My understanding is under EASA you can’t hold two of the same licence. So whilst UK are in the club you can’t have an CAA and EASA licence. Instead you transfer to the EASA licence.

however once brexit has happened you will be able to apply and gain a second UK licence.

it’s all a bit of a faf, and you need to be careful ratings don’t get lost etc.

[Flightlevel001]

fast cruiser

No one seems to be able to provide any clarity on it, more a "wait and see" which may very well turn out to be too late for some. It's my understanding though, that come 1 JAN you would no longer be an EASA license holder so from that point not able to transfer to another state (unless some dispensation is granted from EASAs side). It's a pity you can't get the ball rolling with the CAA for processing the UK ATPL, ready to be issued in early JAN because I can see that taking some time and creating a bit of a grey area. Are there any airlines that stipulate that come 1JAN, you must have a UK only ATPL, despite the CAA saying they'll recognise EASA for a couple of years?

[Alex Whittingham]

It seems that, if you hold a licence now ith the UK as SOLI, then if you take no action this will become a UK only licence at the end of this year. As some say above there is nothing that says that after this year EASA will treat this as anything other than a third party ICAO licence and, if you wanted an EASA licence after that date you would have to retake all the ATPLs and take an ATPL skill test just like an FAA licence holder would. On the other hand, if you transfer your SOLI now to another EASA State your EASA licence will be maintained and the UK CAA say they will then issue you a UK ATPL on an equivalent basis.

[Mcflyer101]

According to the UKCAA website they will issue you with a license validation (if you wish to transfer back from EASA to U.K.) which isn’t a proper UK ATPL license. It’s unfortunate that politics once again are playing with the livelihoods of many...nobody really knows what is actually going to happen come 1st of Jan. All the statements I’ve read only use the term “may” at the moment!

[maxpeck]

Not being able to work in Europe seems to be a bigger issue than were your licence comes from surely.

[Alex Whittingham]

Yes, the FAQ says 'can I be issued with', the answer says 'Yes' and then has the word 'validation' in it, which I think is new and for me confusing, older versions just said they would issue a UK licence. FAQ and response below. I do agree that it is now time for the UK CAA to come off the fence, stop saying 'may', and now tell us what they actually will do.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/967x212/capture_3b908a0458edac8bfc2c5bb670ca33bf16fac3cd.png

[austrian71]

Its cristal clear: UK people voted for Brexit, now it looks like no-deal Brexit, even being sorry for many colleagues, but cherry pickig never worked and also will not work in future, saying that, I am aftraid UK aviators without EASA licence will not work in EU, as simple as that, specially after the latest political actions regarding the intention of a no-deal-exit I am afraid none of the above mentioned "transition procedures" will work.

[Banana Joe]

One will certainly be able obtain an EASA license in one way or the other, just like an FAA license, but it won't be of much help if you won't have the right to live and work in an EU country.

[Mcflyer101]

It’s all academic at the moment as there are no jobs anywhere, but thousands of unemployed pilots. Not sure if any license makes a difference at the moment!

[Aso]

Surely having 2 licenses (UK ATPL and EASA ATPL) is the best option. Ehh just having ONE is the best option.... Leaving EASA is the stupidest thing proposed by Johnson..

:ok: Best advice given on this topic is by Alex who knows his stuff so stop reading the Daily Mail or Sun to get your Brexit advice. You just read it here on Pprune for free by a man who knows what he is talking about instead of reading all the opinions of people who "think" what will, should, could, has to happen.....
It seems that, if you hold a licence now ith the UK as SOLI, then if you take no action this will become a UK only licence at the end of this year. As some say above there is nothing that says that after this year EASA will treat this as anything other than a third party ICAO licence and, if you wanted an EASA licence after that date you would have to retake all the ATPLs and take an ATPL skill test just like an FAA licence holder would. On the other hand, if you transfer your SOLI now to another EASA State your EASA licence will be maintained and the UK CAA say they will then issue you a UK ATPL on an equivalent basis.

[Time Traveller]

=Aso;10894088]Ehh just having ONE is the best option.... Leaving EASA is the stupidest thing proposed by Johnson. Of course, in an ideal world, but we have to play the cards he dealt us, and that looks like a UK permanent resident may be far better placed if they have a non UK EASA licence and cover both bases. How much that is so, depends on whether European operators put EU registered planes based in the UK (can they do that, but if they do, the pilots would need a UK right to work, together with an easa license?). And with a uk valuation, could the pilot fly a mix of UK and EU registered planes as they circulate through UK bases? (eg easyjet, wizz - not at the moment, I believe).

[Mcflyer101]

This basically sums up the conundrum for those who are sitting on the fence. Nobody knows how all of this is going to be resolved. Should Ryan, Easy and others decide to have planes being based in the UK(UK registered) and being flown with EASA licenses (although on a Validation) UK Pilots will rightly be up in arms. It’s just totally annoying that politics is playing with people’s livelihoods. I don’t understand why this Government decided to leave EASA when others that aren’t in the EU are happy being members? It’s going to cost the UK far more as we are just being shown with Galileo...completely bonkers...

[FlyingStone]

I guess we can thank the 17.4m well-educated people who have no doubt performed thorough research and voted the way they did in 2016.

[Joe le Taxi]

I don't think there would be any particular objection - PROVIDED said pilots are UK citizens, or have permanent right to remain. After all, there are several European operator's aircraft based in the UK already, flown by Brits on easa licences. What is beyond the pale is the advert I saw for a UK based crew member, who must have permanent EU citizenship. Errrr; No!

[Denti]

And why not? If the employer wants the flexibility to use a crew member with UK residency or dual citizenship both in the UK and EU, why not? I guess the pool is not exceptionally large, safe for the fact that anyone who relocates to the UK until the end of the year is eligible for protected status and eventually full residency. Same of course is true for the other way round. As it should be.

[Joe le Taxi]

Even requiring dual citizenship is still a bit dubious under EU law with the UK still subject to freedom of movement/common employment rights. My understanding is that, prior to the end of the transition period, you can't specify/rule out certain nationalities for a job,so it's illegal to exclude Brits (especially for a job based in the UK - that's really cheeky, I'm amazed you think it's ok), and after Brexit, it would be illegal to hire for a job in the UK with no right to work there (which sole EU citizens probably won't have unless they're already resident.) My cynicism made me think they wanted a European citizen quickly based in the UK, so they could keep the uk job after Brexit, and move to Europe if required, or just a client preference. It was only one biz jet post, Gmail address. I haven't seen any European operator's looking for only Brits for an EU basing, no continentals! Strange that!

[Seabrook]

Hi guys, I am planning on going to Greece this Nov to complete my CPL/ME/IR. I am currently in the process of transferring my licence and medical from UK CAA to the HCAA and will hopefully be issued an EASA CPL/ME/IR early next year. I have done my atpl theory through Austro. I plan to return to the UK so based on the information given above I will get a validation of some sort to operate UK G-reg a/c? Will this validation mean a UK licence at all? I hope there will be no further training involved? Thanks

[Denti]

Joe le Taxi

Well, it is not as easy as that. Every brit born in NI has permanent EU citizenship if he so chooses. And that continues after Brexit. It would be therefore interesting to see a court case brought against that employer and how it is argued. Of course it would be much more correct to require permanent right to live and work in the EU for the job, as that does not discriminate based on country of origin (which is not allowed under EU law, no idea about UK internal law). Both ways to frame it, however, do not forbid those brits that have the permanent right to live and work in the EU to apply, and those are actually quite a few.

Indeed you might be right, it could be that they wanted a non british EU citizen to move to the UK to get residency (again, move on the 31st of december and that is still legal to get residency). However, if it is for a biz jet it might be that there is a high chance that the owner will relocate to the EU in the next years and does not want to rehire his pilots. After all, Euro clearing in the UK will end within a year and a lot of assets and the institutions that use and work with them have to move, financial services are, after all, not part of the current negotiations, everything about them will be unilaterally decided by the EU at their leisure and can be changed with 3 months notice.

[FGE319]

I guess we can thank the 17.4m well-educated people who have no doubt performed thorough research and voted the way they did in 2016.

I'd suggest you ask Tom Hunt MP, who (when he wasn't an MP) lied to my face in stating that he doesn't believe regulation will change when he was advocating political suicide.

Granted, he didn't know is that I'm a pilot when I asked him the question, however this was one of the few questions he managed to answer in a straight manner that night and he lied through his teeth, just like most from his political party manage to do.

[JETPORT]

Quick question if anyone can help please ?
Irish EASA Licence applied for from UK CAA one and being processed at the moment .
I revalidated my A320 LPC last week on my UK licence ..... how will I get this to my Irish licence now as all paper work has already been submitted ?
ie: when the Irish licence arrives the LPC on it will have expired although I’ve revalidated it
There must be many pilots in this situation so if anyone can help with the answer it would be much appreciated .Thanks

[Mcflyer101]

Not 100% sure. But your last check should be credited while you’re in possession of a UK license. I would contact UKCAA to make sure they process the information. The day you get your Irish license it should mirror your UK license!

[deltahotel]

Copy and paste from another forum.

Email their licensing dept explaining this with a copy of your newly validated licence. I did exactly that with my medical as I revalidated after I’d submitted everything. Be advised that their office is closed til at least early Dec due Covid. They are wfh and processing but it’s all a bit slow and no licence changeover can take place until their office opens again.

[flight scchool]

Just about to do the process through the IAA also. But does anyone know the answer to the following; (last time I emailed the IAA it took 6 weeks to get a reply, so figured asking here would be quicker)

- Does my medical need to be valid? I currently don't fly on my EASA licence or in Europe, so never bothered renewing it last year. (I do have a current type rating on it)

- This may be a stupid question. But since I don't fly on my EASA licence and not bothered how long it takes to come back, could I just wait till next year to apply? I can't really find anywhere specific where it says that the licence will no be transferable to an EASA licence in the future?

Any info much appreciated.

[deltahotel]

https://www.iaa.ie/personnel-licensing/pilot-licences-(eu-regulations)/part-fcl-licence-transfer-process

https://info.caa.co.uk/brexit/commercial-pilots/

A couple of links which may help.

[flight scchool]

Thanks deltahotel :).

[deltahotel]

Welcome. Be aware that their office is closed due COVID, due to re open early Dec. Wfh is happening but slow. FWIW I put my ppw in the post in early March. My basic licence and medical were ready early Sep, though CAA hadn’t sent TRE info so that took another 6 weeks to resolve.

Everything is now ready but there’s no one at the IAA to send out/exchange licences!

[flight scchool]

So I finally managed to get it off today, actually they told me to send it by email as nobody is at the office and it's work from home. They said to send the docs as well by post. So that's what I did. The CAA said it would take 35 working days for my medical stuff to be transferred. Similar to you, I sent my TRI/TRE stuff but they have expired, I just hope they keep some record of them if I need to renew. I wrote them on the form anyway, even though they're not current. Let's hope we all get some sort of licence back, To be fair, once they replied to the first email after a month, they were quick to reply thereafter.

[flight scchool]

For those guys without a current type. Apparently if you have a type rating on a third country license (faa etc) there is then a way to get credit for this and issue you with the EASA licence. Costs an extra 300 euro I think.

[WhatsOurVectorVictor]

deltahotel

Been a while since you posted this but I'm in the same boat. And even though restrictions have eased in Ireland, they're still not accepting post? Have you heard anything?

[deltahotel]

I believe they plan to reopen next week. Colleague and I are waiting for email to tell us we can post in. That said I’ll probably send mine in jan when I have some time off.

[Count von Altibar]

It'll still be possible to get a UK to EASA licence after brexit takes place no doubt, maybe just a bit more nausea to go through. My mate converted a UAE licence to IAA EASA no trouble I'm sure no need to panic unless you absolutely need an EASA licence pronto for your current employment.

[Banana Joe]

What about the 14 ATPL exams?

[Flightlevel001]

On the CAA's Brexit microsite FAQ, they state that non-UK EASA licence holders can continue to operate G - registered aircraft from Jan onwards but this will require a validation that's downloadable on the CAA website (and stuffed in your licence presumably). It goes on to say, vaguely, "It will be subject to conditions". Does anyone know what these are?

[CW247]

Nope. And keep Hitting F5 on that page to see how the wording changes day by day.

[Smooth Airperator]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45112872

I guess this is it. Time for the UK CAA to start preparing.

[lilpilot]

EASA issued some Guidelines for continued exemptions due to covid based on Article 71, see here: https://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/general-publications/guidelines-continued-granting-exemptions-accordance-article

Some authorities who have received this memo and started applying it apparently done away with validity requirements for SOLI on or after November 19th.

Some authorities however insist that by December 31st the UK issued EASA licenses will sublime into thin air, so the late publication by EASA did not help many, however some authorities construed that if the application arrives to them by December 31st, they will honor the request and issue a license next year.

This was all before the Brexit agreement done today, which no one knows if it has any effect on professional licenses. I'm assuming someone here will find the document and the applicable clauses soon.

So everyone who got stuck, may still have a chance this week to apply out, but consider if it's worth it in your situation and with your license held.

[Big_D]

Does not seem that professional qualifications made it into the final agreement.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/attachment/867615/EU_Membership_benefits_two_columns.pdf

[EGGW]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948093/TCA_SUMMARY_PDF.pdf

Go to page 13, its in there!

[OhNoCB]

Well, now that the magic date has passed, has anyone any info/insight/speculation as to the process for going from UK PART-FCL to EASA PART-FCL? Any EASA authorities said much about this yet?

[Banana Joe]

Just like converting your FAA license, that means 14 ATPL exams and skills test.

[ndue345]

OhNoCB

Nobody knows, not even Balpa yet

From Balpa newsletter :
Pilot Licences. This is covered in Article AIRTRN.18: Aviation Safety, paragraph 2, where mutual recognition with a minimum standard of the ICAO Chicago Convention is established. Prior to the agreement being struck, the CAA were suggesting that UK licence holders flying EU registered aircraft after the 1st of Jan would need to acquire an EASA, EU based licence or obtain an EASA validation of their UK licence. However, this article seems to supersede that requirement, albeit coming much too late for anyone to take advantage of it. BALPA will seek to confirm beyond doubt, as a matter of priority, if there is now full, mutual recognition agreed for UK and EU issued pilots licences and ratings, etc., without further cost or cumbersome bureaucracy.

[tommywarez]

I'm very late to the party with regard to this discussion and I wish I'd kept myself better abreast of things. I incorrectly assumed that I would need to retain my UK-Issued licence in order to fly in the UK after the end of last year and so didn't follow through with my initial plan to move my licence to Portugal.

A colleague spoke to EASA about the seeming lack of reciprocity regarding privileges and was asked to email [email protected] stating his case, which I have now done also.

The immediate issue for me will now be how to gain an ATPL(H) licence validation for the coming year so that I can continue contracting in Europe. Has anyone had any experience of this or considering doing the same?

[ndue345]

Without any publication from the EASA on the mutual recognition, your validation will last only 1 year and need to take a skill test, Class 1 and ELP.
(EU) 2020/723

Any luck from [email protected] ?

[tommywarez]

Yes I understand that it will only be a 1-year validation but that buys me time to see if BALPA or any of these other avenues yield results with getting a reciprocal agreement or to start sitting my 14 exams! Sorry for my ignorance, what is an ELP in this regard? I searched the /723 doc but it didn't return anything.

[I.Garcia]

ELP: English Language proficiency

[2lo flaps]

I have a uk CAA ATPL and did nothing about converting to an EASA license before Brexit in the blind hope that there would be mutual recognition of my license by EASA in the Brexit agreement. It would appear that still nothing has been agreed as yet. I normally work for a European ACMI carrier on EU registered aircraft so it seems I would need to convert to an EASA license to hopefully fly once again this summer. I looked on the Irish website and it would also appear that as I had not applied for conversion before midnight on the 31st December then they would no longer accept Applications to convert to them, so it would appear I’m stuck in some sort of hole. I’ve emailed the Irish CAA to seek clarification of this but no response as yet. Just wondering if anyone else had found a way round this or whether I am mis understanding something? Any help would be greatly appreciated please?

[Banana Joe]

There won't be any common sense, there has never been and there will never be. Prepare for the worst, and that is 14 ATPL exams. Let alone the issue of the right to live and work in Europe if had not become a resident in Europe before this mess unfolded.

Good luck.

[Count von Altibar]

Wait and see after all the dust settles might not be just as bad as all the ATPL exams. Might be better to get aviation out of the hole it's in first, things look bleak so far for 2021 it's hard to believe what's happened really.

[Economist3]

Hello,

Has anyone heard back from the CAA regarding SOLI transfers being processed in December?

I had to supply some additional information for my application which I did in December, but no word
back as yet.

many thanks

[Flightlevel001]

I think it depends what NAA you decided to transfer to, some are quicker than others. The IAA seem to have ground to a halt unless anyone knows any different?

[deltahotel]

IAA still working, but slow because office only manned part time. My licence arrived last week.

[Economist3]

Many thanks Flightleve001

It is the IAA that I am transferring to. But they had asked for the CAA to resend a DOC155 (having
viewed a certified copy of my licence). So I had to fill in another SRG2150 and have not heard
back from the CAA on the revised 155 being sent.

[deltahotel]

I had this problem last year. I got a good response from CAA by calling their licensing contact number. I couldn’t hurry things along but at least I spoke to a human being who could look at my file and tell me whether they had received the request and whether it been actioned.

[Economist3]

:ok: cheers Deltahotel, will try that

[jimbols6]

Hi all, it seems there is no automatic recognition of qualifications in the Brexit deal, I stand to be corrected if anyone has anymore up to date information. See the links take from Deliotte and The Institute. This may explain why the UK CAA are doing there part to recognise EASA qualifications but not the other way round as of yet.

The other problem that we face is the right to work in Europe has now been lost. As i'm sure many have seen some jobs are starting to spring up around Europe but we are not eligible apply.

https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/about-deloitte-uk/articles/fta-mutual-recognition-of-professional-qualifications.html

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/future-relationship-brexit-deal/services

[Sam Ting Wong]

I hope not a single UK pilot will ever work in the EU again. You guys wanted out, well here you go.Enjoy your Leeds base then! Paint that on the bus next time!

[Joe le Taxi]

Much like cross border trade, the UK still has a far greater number of EU pilots - you want them kicked out too? :rolleyes:

Are you Ursula by any chance?

[Sam Ting Wong]

How many EU pilots are currently working in the UK?

[Joe le Taxi]

I don't wanna rehash this too much as it's old ground, but there are hundreds in BA, and the freighter outfit that became something else, has almost the majority EU pilots, Virgin has several, Ryanair, easyjet. All a very significant number. Over thirty years, I have worked equally on both sides of la Manche, and believe me, it's more in the UK by a big margin, pilot numbers were mentioned a while back, but prior to Brexit, in the general population there were three times more EU workers in the uk, than Brits in the WHOLE of the EU! (less now, after many migrant workers left in the last few months).

I can't think EU pilots holding UK licences are much chuffed by the situation. Just gotta hope BA VS etc can avoid redundancies.

[lear999wa]

BA(IAG), EasyJet and Ryanair are EU companies.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Just block UK airlines from flying to EU, you get everything you want from them in a heartbeat. The UK is in a weak position, much more dependent on EU than the other way round. That goes for trade and especially the financial service industry as well. Ursula is a weak old woman full of German guilt. The moment a real leader, most preferable a French or Dutch is at the top of the EU, the UK will be in a dire position.

[Joe le Taxi]

Lear, that's by the by. It's where people work that's key. STW, I don't know why I wasted my time responding to you.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Focus on current employment numbers is very short sighted, the EU needs to capitalise from Brexit. Employment is where the business is, and that business needs to be in Europe. The financial centre of Europe needs to be in Europe, the biggest airports of Eirope need to be in Europe. Heathrow is now outside of Europe, a competitor like Dubai or Istanbul. The UK airlines are competition just the same, and need to be treated that way in the future. You wait, populist will gain power in Europe as well, just like Boris and Donald, European countries will now get more inward-looking as well, the gloves are off and it is 27:1. Just wait a few more elections, most importantly the French one. Make EU great again. What goes around comes around.Nationalism is contagious, that is what Brexit fans not yet understand.

But of course you might have a personal interest in keeping the status quo, fair enough.

[Crosswind Limits]

For those saying BA is a European airline because it’s owned by IAG are missing the point. It is a UK airline for all intents and purposes. Due to the ability of other foreign nationals speaking level 4 English or better, there has always been more EU nationals working in the UK than the other way round. I can’t imagine there are more than a handful of Brits working for Iberia.

[Theholdingpoint]

You clearly underestimate the number of UK nationals in easy and Ryan based in EUland (and not willing to go back).

[CW247]

I don't think anyone is underplaying that fact. There are many but not a greater number than the opposite. I've had the fortune (or misfortune) of being based out of 10 Euro basis, Stansted and Gatwick. When operating out of the above two UK airports, all you need to do is open your eyes and ears to see what percentage of the pilots queuing up for security in the morning are Brits. Less than 40% at Stansted and about 60% at Gatwick. Now granted, Europe is 25+ countries but the conclusion is obvious. Britain serves up many more pilot jobs to Europeans than the other way around.

[Theholdingpoint]

No, they (both EU and UK nationals) don't unless they comply with national requirements.
The British people voted to leave the EU and stop free movement between the island and the continent, you can't ignore that.

CW247 the only obvious conclusion is that you can't extrapolate "data" from two airports and state they're valid for the entire country. It's like saying that FR has a lot of foreign pilots in DUB, so that must also be true for Cork. Furthermore, your "survey" doesn't tell us anything about the number of UK pilots in the EU.

[Alrosa]

All rather sad and avoidable had the usual suspects (politicians) not sold lies and vague notions of “reclaiming sovereignty” to the voters back in 2016.

[Crosswind Limits]

We are now outside of Europe and we have to accept that. Many of our colleagues voted leave for quite understandable reasons. Whether they were right to do so will take years to work out, not weeks or months with the attendant short to mid term pain inevitable. I work for an EU airline but based in the UK with no automatic right to live and work in the EU any more. I transferred my UK EASA licence (as was then) to an Irish EASA one in summer 2019. There is huge uncertainty in our industry and it’s a real pity that the EASA issue could not have been handled way better.

Maybe, just maybe one day we will rejoin the EU but before that we really must understand how we ended up here in the first place! It goes back many decades and has its roots in the decline of Britain as a global power post WW2.

[Theholdingpoint]

Nope.
They'll need to get a recognized "settled" or "pre-settled" status (which is subject to an approval/denial process) and in most cases has a time limit.

[CessNah]

Any thoughts on what's going to happen with regards to work rights now that the deed is done? I currently hold a UK passport and an IAA license and I'm noticing gradually jobs are being advertised here and there across the European market. A lot of them specify "The right to live and work in the EU", how does one interpret that? Would that rule me off of being considered for a job, or would I be able to apply for the appropriate visas/permits should I pass the selection process. I have a slight bit of relief as I've held an IAA license for the last 3 years, however the right to work is a bit of a grey area as given the current circumstances I haven't really seen any UK nationals apply for jobs abroad so it is really hard for me to tell. Cheers folks!

[FlyingStone]

You need an EU passport or a valid work visa in order to be able to "live and work in the EU", there is no grey area. A company would only be able to sponsor you for a visa, if there is shortage of qualified applicants for the job - hardly the case in current circumstances.

[deltahotel]

Try it and see and let us know how it goes. My guess is one of the first questions will be ‘do you have the right to live and work in the eu?’ to which the answer will be ‘no’. ‘Thank you for your interest Mr CessNah, good luck in the future’.

I’m being flippant because it’s the only way I can deal with Brexit - the the gift that keeps on giving.

Good luck

[CW247]

I'm going to state for my own selfish purposes that the only way I'm going to be flying any time soon is if our government issues an outright ban on foreign charter operators doing business out of the UK on behalf of UK operators. Mark my words, the usual social dumpers are already sharpening their tools to pick up the slack because the horrid one way trade agreement allows them to.

If you haven't read the trade agreement. Do so and then hammer your local MP demanding an answer...
EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement on Aviation with respect to “Leasing” (section 7, PDF page 232). In the text it is stated that :

“air carriers of the United Kingdom (can use) aircraft leased with crew from other air carriers of the Parties”

“in the case of air carriers of the Union, using aircraft leased with crew from other air carriers of the Union"

Backed up by a few UK owned airlines:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/feb/14/uk-airlines-warn-of-job-losses-as-they-lose-business-to-brexit

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/balpa-pilots-union-uk-aviation-boris-johnson-b1802841.html

[2lo flaps]

Does anyone know of any of the national authorities in Europe that are still accepting license transfer as they were pre Brexit? I hear rumour that some are still accepting a straight forward paper transfer without the need to resit the ATPL exams, but cannot seem to find any further details. Any help gratefully received.

[ford cortina]

I sincerley doubt it, on EASA's website, regarding Brexit they say this

Your UK issued ATPL license will no longer be valid to operate an aircraft registered in an EASA Member State as of January 1, 2021. Unless you were able to transfer that license to an EASA Member State before January 1, 2021, you will need to convert it into an EU license in accordance with Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) No 2020/723. You can apply for that conversion to any of the EASA Member State competent authorities.

I hate to say this, but this has been a long time comming, you have had plenty of time to change it, its not like the local intergalatic planning office on Alpha Centuri.

[OhNoCB]

Unfortunately some of us were unable to SOLI prior to deadline day due to reasons outside of our control.

I received this from the IAA recently, I can't find any other information about it online but may be worth keeping an eye on:In order to convert from your UK EASA licence you are required to complete the following;




Hold a Class 1 EASA valid medical certificate
Complete a Licence Skill Test
Complete the 14 EASA theory examinations ( however I understand that a proposal is put to EASA in the next few weeks to see if the exams completed in the EASA state will be accepted, so just bear with us for the time been & monitor the IAA website.

[KelvinD]

The EU has published this document: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:22020A1231(01)&from=EN
Part 2 refers to Aviatino etc and there is, somewhere in there, a section about equivalences re qualifications, licences etc.
Pour yourself a stiff one and settle down for a couple of hours!

[Horsepowerrr]

I worked for a UK airline last year and as everything was very unclear waited with transferring my UK EASA Part-FCL ATPL(A) license to one of another EASA state. As I could possibly shoot myself in the foot and lose my job if I did transfer my license and then it turned out I wouldnt be able to fly G reg airplanes anymore. You simply didnt know. Was all hear say and vague statements. Even the CAA told me on the phone to wait and there would be a grace period when all became clear. Obviously not!

I am from another European EASA country and did all my flight training there and got my EASA Part-FCL license there. I changed my license to a UK EASA one as my British employer requested. No problem under EASA, right.

Now to KEEP my EASA license I have to do all the same EASA exams again that I already did in my home country, EASA state, before? How ridiculous is that? My license doesnt say anything else nor has been converted to a national license yet and says European EASA license on it. So does that then have any value anymore at all? And everyone who has such a license cant fly any airplanes at the moment as those licenses arent good for anything and basically expired. As when one would get ramp checked now they hold a non existing type of license.

Better hope there comes a solution for this soon.

[Horsepowerrr]

There is a petition out there that might be useful and do something or have some effect.

[Horsepowerrr]

https://www.change.org/p/european-aviation-safety-agency-petition-for-the-simplification-of-uk-easa-flight-crew-licence-conversions

[Denti]

Good luck with that, and i do mean it.

Currently the UK is doing quite a bit to antagonize the EU where it can, so good will from the EU, and it would require good will, is probably in quite short supply. Not to mention, that currently many business areas are hurting under the new rules and all are lobbying for change.

There was ample warning about the loss of EASA license privileges, i believe EASA published their first advice in 2017 for a possible hard brexit. Which did happen for services now. And that was clear from the negotiation direction of the UK since around a year ago, which is while some UK companies actively switched their pilots (and Flight Attendants) licenses to european in preparation for that, like the orange bunch for example did. Including some UK based trainers from what i hear, as it was quite clear from the UK CAA pretty early on that it would accept a conversion from EASA to UK licenses in the beginning.

[Horsepowerrr]

It was all hear say and not solid. I specifically asked the CAA last November if they would accept EASA state licenses to fly a G reg airplane and they said they didn’t know what was going to happen exactly and was better to wait as there would be a grace period after it would be clear how it would all settle.

I couldn’t take the risk to lose my flying job in the UK due to a hard Brexit with me holding a flying license in any European EASA state and then not being able to fly a G reg. Nobody knew what was exactly going to happen.
If it means I have to do a few exams and another LPC so be it, but it is of course ridiculous.
My license was issued when it was fully IAW the current EASA rules and my TRE on the last company LPC was not even British, but an EASA state TRE. So what if that TRE fills out paperwork of an EASA state now for that same check ride?

My license is and says it’s an EASA Part-FCL license. It’s not a national license, yet. That a nation moves out of the organization doesn’t mean the license isn’t anymore according to the regulations. Wouldn’t that be discrimination? What if I would get ramp checked in the US or Asia. My license as it is now doesn’t exist?

It’s weird. And doesn’t seem right.

By the way, many airlines set up European AOC’s and all due to not being able to otherwise operate in both Europe and the UK. Not because they knew EASA licenses would be accepted in the UK. They separated the two.
My airline/ employer operates in the UK and Europe and didn’t know what to do with crew licensing really and separated them and also the AOC’s.

[Denti]

It was all hear say and not solid. I specifically asked the CAA last November if they would accept EASA state licenses to fly a G reg airplane and they said they didn’t know what was going to happen exactly and was better to wait as there would be a grace period after it would be clear how it would all settle.

That was bad luck then, apparently the person at the CAA did not know what they were talking about, the CAA brexit microsite already had the acceptance of EASA licenses for 2 years on it by that date. Which is why so many, very well documented on this forum, have switched their license elsewhere, many to Ireland as the IAA apparently was very professional and fast about it.

I couldn’t take the risk to lose my flying job in the UK due to a hard Brexit with me holding a flying license in any European EASA state and then not being able to fly a G reg. Nobody knew what was exactly going to happen.
If it means I have to do a few exams and another LPC so be it, but it is of course ridiculous. Well, if flying a G-reg is the main point, of course there is no change for you then. The only change is when coming back to the EU, obviously.
My license was issued when it was fully IAW the current EASA rules and my TRE on the last company LPC was not even British, but an EASA state TRE. So what if that TRE fills out paperwork of an EASA state now for that same check ride? He can still sign any EASA license. No idea about a UK license. But of course, a UK licensed TRE will not be able to sign an EASA license anymore. Same as an FAA examiner cannot sign a UK or EASA license.

My license is and says it’s an EASA Part-FCL license. It’s not a national license, yet. That a nation moves out of the organization doesn’t mean the license isn’t anymore according to the regulations. Wouldn’t that be discrimination? What if I would get ramp checked in the US or Asia. My license as it is now doesn’t exist?
Again: good luck, but hopefully ramp checker do know those things by now. And yes, regardless what it says on the paper, it is not an EASA license anymore, from the EASA it is a normal non-EASA ICAO license. Nothing more, nothing less.
It’s weird. And doesn’t seem right.

By the way, many airlines set up European AOC’s and all due to not being able to otherwise operate in both Europe and the UK. Not because they knew EASA licenses would be accepted in the UK. They separated the two.
My airline/ employer operates in the UK and Europe and didn’t know what to do with crew licensing really and separated them and also the AOC’s.

I can understand that it doesn't sit right, after all, at the moment the UK has not yet diverged from the EASA rulebook (how could it? It is not a competent authority yet as it does neither have the personnel nor the infrastructure to fulfill all regulatory functions again). However, the UK did chose to leave the EASA, and that includes licensing. It was not forced to do so, it was a conscious choice by the UK negotiators. Services were not part of the negotiations since at least march 2020, and aviation, after all, is a service, which meant that all hard brexit advise was extremely likely come into force, as it largely has. Of course, a frank discussion with your employer probably would have alleviated the fear of losing a job, talking to ones responsible manager is often easier and yields better results than most pilots seem to think.

[deltahotel]

Hp.

Not sure who you work for, but if I read it right you currently operate Greg ac on a UK licence? So that’s ok so far and it would only become an issue if you went to a non uk airline.

If that’s not part of your current master plan then perhaps sit tight for a while and see what happens - it’s not impossible that there will be mutual recognition of licences in the future.

Bit of detail on TRE stuff. As EASA TRE I can sign EASA and UK licences. UK at least until end 2022 or expiry of my current certificate. Now that the CAA is going to allow UK licence issue to previous holders from (I think) Apr this year my company will doubtless ask me to do this for full flexibility. So, having surrendered my uk licence at the end of last year for IAA I will probably soon be going back for a reissue. Hopefully with my old CAA number.

Good luck

[Horsepowerrr]

I totally hear what you say and agree. If I would have know for sure the EASA licenses were going to be accepted in the UK I would have transferred it in a blink of an eye. Thing is you just didn’t know for sure as Brexit was and is strange and not logical. There were zero guarantees. So what is the safe option then to assure your job?

It’s easy to look back and say what the best thing to do was. As always.
It is what it is though and I will keep my UK license and probably will apply for a European one as well as that should be doable as my written exams were all done in the state that’s still EASA. So theoretically and hopefully just an ATPL checkride and possibly a LPE and it should be good.

dh, I just want to keep my options open in times like this and it’s better to have a license that doesn’t restrict you to one country. You are right though. Although who says licenses will be transferable or recognized in the future again and when would that be? Everybody is good friends with the US, but that never really happened with the US FAA license as well and the UK has the same status as third nation now.
Maybe the UK will come back and say they will go into EASA again. If that’s possible at all. Time will tell.

In my opinion one is currently better off with an EASA license as then you can work in Europe as well as the UK, the other way around one can’t.

It just stays all silly how it’s all done, but I suppose that covers most of the Brexit dealings are. Unnecessarily difficult.

[Banana Joe]

Do you have the right to live and work in the EU? Because I don't see how UK pilots will be employable with only an EASA license, or am I missing anything?

[dimvamv]

EASA UK licenced pilots maybe have been European citizens.....Just saying....

[flight scchool]

I agree with what Deltahotel said above. One more thing that I think is worth a mention in all this saga. There is one EU country that UK citizens have the right to reside and work in without any visas or hassle, and that's Ireland (and visa versa). I'm sure many are aware of that already. I thought maybe mentioning it might open up some possible avenues/bases of employment for UK guys. Cheers.

​​​​​​https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/common-travel-area-guidance/common-travel-area-guidance

[EI_DVM]

Only problem with Irish airlines, in particular the large blue and yellow one is that they may still require you to have the ability to live and work in the EU (not just Ireland), which now rules out UK Citizens. Even UK citizens that were previously resident in an EU country eg Spain or Italy, don't have the right to live and work in the EU now, just that one country.

This whole thing will really need to be sorted out but can't see it being done any time soon until emotions have calmed down and cooler heads can prevail.

[Horsepowerrr]

It’s almost a game EASA plays as a sort of punishment to the CAA and the UK. The UK CAA accepts EASA licenses still, but other way around they don’t.
No authority seems to understand why EASA doesn’t just recognize everything that happened before 1 January 2021. Instead they just make everything invalid.
Victims are all the crew in this case. I also hope they sort it out as it makes no sense at all and is bad for all involved.

[rudestuff]

It definitely feels like the kind of thing that could and should be challenged in a European court. By a disadvantaged European. It's entirety reasonable that someone from Europe who took their exams in Europe, did their flight training in Europe and took their LST in Europe with a European examiner (but was issued a UK licence) should feel entirely discriminated against. Or someone who SOLI'ed from French to UK who is now being told they can't SOLI back. Madness...

[Mcflyer101]

Anyone in this forum who‘s still waiting for his/her transfer from UK to EASA to be completed? Looks like due to Covid some CAAs are super slow with the transfer. And the UK seems to have moved the goalpost now and set a deadline for the 31.3.2021 by which the transfer should be completed. Does anyone else have the same issue?

[PapaEchoNovember]

Is there any truth to the rumor that EASA have agreed to accept EASA ATPL exams completed prior to 01/01/2021 for new licence issue?

[airpasty]

Mcflyer101

Better check with your new EASA state, I just got an email from the IAA after a gentle prod. Looks like the UK CAA didn’t email over form 155 whatever that is.....Dear Sir, Madam,

“Please see below request sent 12/09/2020. It appears we have not received the DOC 155 for the above named pilot.”

[LandingGear60]

PapaEchoNovember

I wouldn’t say it’s a rumour. A group of us received it in writing from EASA after a few months of challenging the validity of them. They have now updated their website to reflect this change under the Brexit FAQs.

[PapaEchoNovember]

Thank you, I hadn’t spotted that.

I am a student pilot in an CPL/ATPL integrated course and I successfully completed my ATPL theoretical exams in the UK by December 31, 2020. Can I complete, after that date, the flight training in an ATO approved by an EASA Member State or EASA? Will my UK ATPL theory certificate of completion be accepted by EASA Member States for the licence issue after December 31, 2020?EASA Member State competent authorities may continue to accept such valid theoretical knowledge examination completion certificates for the purpose of issuing Part-FCL licenses and ratings in accordance with either Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 or Delegated Regulation (EU) 2020/723, provided that those examination completion certificates are still within their validity period in accordance with FCL.025(c) in Annex 1 to Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 and provided that they were issued by the UK CAA before January 01, 2021 in full compliance with Annex 1 (Part-FCL) to Regulation (EU) 1178/2011. In particular, in accordance with FCL.025(a)(1) in Annex 1 (Part-FCL) to Regulation (EU) 1178/2011, the entire set of theoretical knowledge examinations for a specific licence or rating must have been taken under the responsibility of the UK CAA.


Looks like this is geared towards CPL/IR students who completed their exams before 01/01/2021 rather than ATPL holders, if I’m correct this still means we need to complete the 14 exams to convert over as per (EU) 2020/723 and the full third country licence conversion process. (If the exams were completed more than 36 months ago, which I suspect they would be for most ATPL holders.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x789/c2_f6_e32_b_28_fb_40_d2_98_b3_980_b062734_f5_24846f68f01291b 4987545913abff41e18790f96.jpg

[OhNoCB]

This seems to be another victim of EASA unity. I know at least one authority that is telling me that the revised guidance is applicable for trainee pilots only and does not cover someone who already holds a licence, therefore not valid to go from UK to EASA. They claim this was direct guidance to the authority from EASA. I know of at least one OTHER authority that says this is acceptable and are happy to accept the exams for UK to EASA purposes.

With regard to the exam validity as per FCL.025, if you look at your screenshot at FCL.025(c)(2)(i), you will see that this point should keep the exams valid for the majority of ATPL holders.

[PapaEchoNovember]

Thank you for clarifying Let's hope common sense prevails. At least if we can get ATPL exam recongition it will give us the option of an EASA licence in the future, if we should need one.

[747AC]

Hey guys, Hope things are okay with you all,

Has there been any updates or new agreements for the conversion of UK CAA ATPL TO EASA ATPL, are our previous 14 theory exams not recognised and do we have to do them again in order to obtain an EASA ATPL?

Any info and help of how to obtain an EASA licence is highly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

[Denti]

This is what you can see on the EASA homepage in their Brexit FAQs: I am a holder of a UK issued ATPL and would like to convert that license into a license from an EASA Member State. How should I proceed?From January 01, 2021, your UK issued ATPL license is no longer valid to operate an aircraft registered in an EASA Member State. Unless you were able to transfer that license to an EASA Member State before that date, you will need to convert it into an EU license in accordance with Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) No 2020/723 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32020R0723). You can apply for that conversion to any of the EASA Member State competent authorities.
The description of that Regulation is:

Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2020/723 of 4 March 2020 laying down detailed rules with regard to the acceptance of third-country certification of pilots and amending Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011

Therefore it appears that no agreement has been found. Which is not really surprising that all of the 19 committees contained in the TCA have not been working until May 1st, as the UK was not willing to convene any of them as long as the EU had not ratified the TCA. There might be some work in one of those committees about that issue, but i see no real enthusiasm on the EU side in that regard as long as the UK is still not applying the TCA and the WA in full, see the arguments about the NI Protocol (WA) and cutting Jerseys electricity supply off (TCA).

[Contact Approach]

747AC,

EASA have agreed to allow ATPL theory exams undertaken in the uk pre 1/1/21 to be valid for the purpose of obtaining an EASA licence. As of yet nothing further has been agreed but theres significant pressure to make this process simpler.

[Denti]

No, EASA has actually not agreed to that. The only exceptions is for student pilots who did their exams in the UK prior to January 1st. Some local authorities do see that as a blanket approval to accept all exams, but that is actually not in agreement with EASA guidelines at this time. Local authorities do have a limited leeway in interpretation of rules, however those could be open to legal challenges, not that i see a huge chance of those.

Current EASA guideline is:The UK CAA is developing a simplified application and validation procedure for recent holders of UK-issued Part FCL licenses. Does EASA plan to implement a similar application and validation procedure for recent holders of EASA licenses?Source: UK CAA

For the time being, there is no plan to develop a simplified application and validation procedure. Accordingly, any validation or conversion of a UK issued license should be done in accordance with Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) No 2020/723

[Contact Approach]

Denti,

Take your politics elsewhere, it’s getting very boring now. The guy asked for help so give it to him. NAAs are accepting ATPL exams completed pre brexit, they were informed by EASA.

I can confirm this is correct as my son has just had his UK ATPLs accepted for this very purpose.

[747AC]

Thanks guys,

It just seems unclear at the moment whether this applies to everyone who already have a UK CAA Atpl or current students in the process of obtaining a licence. I've been in touch with a couple authorities and hope to get a better understanding.

Hope the process is simple.

Cheers

[Contact Approach]

I think the problem is that no one really knows at the minute simply because the UK dropped out without a definite agreement in the TCA. There is scope for further agreements which is most likely but when that may be is anyones guess. EASA ought to do the decent thing and offer a simplified process for all those who held EASA licences and completed EASA training courses to be able to re apply for a new EASA licence.

And before Denti comes steaming in crying “third country, third country”, those who attained those Licences pre-Brexit did so as part of and in accordance with all EASA standards and regulations. Allowing those to regain sought privileges gained pre-Brexit is the only sensible way forward. Making them redo the exact same thing they’ve just done is just nonsensical.

For those finishing in 2021 this is where things may take some time to rectify as agreements will have to be sought.

Good luck.

[Denti]

There is no politics, i was just posting the official EASA information. It helps reading their brexit page.

Some NAAs do accept the exams, although EASA rules are very clear and do allow that only for student pilots in an integrated (not modular) program. They might be open to legal challenges, although that is very unlikely.

And no, of course EASA does not have the ability to change primary legislation. Third country license approval, and yes, sadly that is the legal status no matter what happened before, requires at least a Commission Directive like the one i linked above which was actually updated to deal specifically with Brexit in late 2020. That is simply EU rules 101.

The politics part is if there are any negotiations. And no, currently there are no negotiations in that area and there is no desire in the EU to do so as there is no pressing demand from either side, no matter how hard that might hit individuals.

[Contact Approach]

Denti,



Provide a certificate of ATPL theoretical exams completed in accordance with FCL 0.25(c)(1). UK exams will be accepted provided they were completed prior to 31/12/20 and remain valid.






XXX will continue to accept theoretical knowledge examination completion certificates for the purpose of issuing Part-FCL licenses and ratings in accordance with either Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 or Delegated Regulation (EU) 2020/723, provided that those examination completion certificates are still within their validity period in accordance with FCL.025(c) in Annex 1 to Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 and provided that they were issued by the UK CAA before 1 January 2021 in full compliance with Annex 1 (Part-FCL) to Regulation (EU) 1178/2011.




Here are two responses from two independent EASA NAAs on this very topic. Where does it say it has to be integrated not modular?

You’re just clogging this thread up with useless information. People have lost their careers and spent thousands of euros and many years training for the privileges that they’ve just had revoked at no fault of their own. Your posts lack fact, tact and serve no purpose other than to rub it in their faces.

Be part of the solution not the problem.

[Alex Whittingham]

There is also this. FCL.025 (c) (2)

(c) Validity period
(1) .....
(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that licence.

Have asked one of the States mentioned above if this means that UK CPL/IR or ATPL holders with exams still valid under this EU law can apply for EASA licences with just the skills test and class 1 to do. Will report back when I hear.

[OhNoCB]

I have queried the above with the IAA and been told that:

1) The allowance for exams applies to student pilots only, not for those who have already got a licence
2) Despite the allowance mentioning exams valid in accordance with FCL.025(c), they see it as FCL.025(c)(1) only and will not accept validity under FCL.025(c)(2).

[Alex Whittingham]

Ahh, bless. Well excuse (1) is wrong because the 7 year validity becomes live for CPL IR holders on passing their IR and allows them to upgrade to ATPL without taking the ATPL exams again and (2) this is an EU regulation, not in their discretion, so they really should comply. Let's see what Austro say. One often gets answers 'shot from the hip' without proper consideration. Of course this question has only arisen since exit day.

[Contact Approach]

Herein lies the problem whereby suitably experienced Pilots are being made to resit everything needlessly despite having previously held EASA credentials and years of experience behind them. This situation is absurd. Richard, nobody currently knows, not even EASA.

[likair]

Hi,

I successfully completed mine in 2009. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif

As Alex quote;
FCL.025 (c) states the following:
Validity period(1) The successful completion of the theoretical knowledge examinations will be valid:
(i) for the issue of a light aircraft pilot licence or a private pilot licence, for a period of 24 months;
(ii) for the issue of a commercial pilot licence, instrument rating (IR) or en route instrument rating (EIR), for a period of 36 months;
(iii) the periods in (i) and (ii) shall be counted from the day when the pilot successfully completes the theoretical knowledge examination, in accordance with (b)(2).
(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that licence.

[lear999wa]

Contact Approach

I don't get it? It was clearly spelled out in the lead up to brexit. That in case of a hard brexit that a UK issued pilots licenses would no longer be a valid easa license. I too held a uk licence up to a year or two ago. It was clear to me, even back then. I don't know what to say, If you couldn't SOLI due to being employed by a UK employer, you might have some sort of legal recourse, between you and your current or former employer. But to those who are claiming ignorance, come on guys, you should have known better.

[OhNoCB]

Alex Whittingham

I agree, but unfortunately they no longer even respond to my emails as 'the decision is final'.

[Contact Approach]

Lear999wa,

I have an EASA licence but i don’t wish to join you on your high horse. I may not be directly affected but many of my friends and relatives are and unfortunately for them they are stuck in the mud. Just because you were able to jump ship that’s not to say everyone could. Like i’ve said before there’s absolutely no reason why EASA can’t reissue new EASA licences to those who held them previously pre Brexit, if those individuals so wish, none whatsoever.

[8che]

Any UK guys who did SOLI manage to get the UK national license back yet ? A “simplified” process doesn’t seem to be delivering yet.

[Blake Seven]

Plenty of European pilots who couldn’t for whatever reason, SOLI back to EASA pre Jan, are now being seriously disadvantaged by EASAs inflexibility.
I get it that EASA would want to make it difficult for third country Pilots (even though the UK have been magnanimous in granting a two year validity for EASA pilots), but to place unnecessary and costly barriers to its own citizens is nuts!

[Big_D]

Contact Approach

For the n'th time, how can EASA oversee CAA after a hard Brexit?

[Blake Seven]

That’s not what he’s asking.
It doesn’t require regulatory oversight of the CAA, for EASA to do the right thing and recognise previously held licences. They can do it unilaterally.

The fact they don’t want to, is baffling.
Reminiscent of returning Russian POWs, who were tried as traitors and sent to the Gulags.

[Contact Approach]

Big_D,

For the nth time that’s not what im saying! It’s really simple stuff guys, Jesus.

[Big_D]

Blake Seven

There are many people in this situation, including myself. The UK Government led by Alexander de Pfeffel decided to leave professional qualifications and services in general outside the scope of the negotiations. Just to reiterate, it was a political choice.

As such, given that the EU is a rules-based trade organisation, there is no legal basis to recognise the licences.

[Contact Approach]

Why are you not able to grasp the simplicity of what I am saying?

Let me spell it out for you:

My argument has nothing to do with Brexit or the ECJ - nada, nothing, ziltch. The UK may have fallen out of EASA but that happened in 2021 not before.

People have paid money for something that was product EASA, they have the right, particularly if they conducted training in the EU, on EU reg aircraft, with EASA examiners, in full compliance with EASA regs to have that product restored, albeit under a new jurisdiction. Sod the UK, who cares. This has nothing to do with the UK directly, this is purely and simply about restoring what people worked for. They should have the right to have their previously sought qualifications acknowledged. A simple application to a member state for a new licence issue would suffice, as long as proof of compliance pre Brexit was assured, which would simply be any test completed pre 1 Jan 2021. Forget the UK licence, forget third country nonsense and just use the EASA course completion, skills test, ATPL results paperwork. Simple really.

[bittersweetheart]

Blake Seven

EU to the UK:
- Do you wish to make a deal on professional qualifications?

UK to the EU:
- No thanks.

EU to the UK:
- No problem. Your decision to be completely out then.

UK to the UK:
- Actually this might create some problems for our infrastructure. Let’s unilaterally recognise EASA Licenses.

UK to the EU:
- WHY WONT YOU RECOGNISE OUR LICENSES WHEN WE VALIDATE YOURS. THIS IS UNFAIR

…..a fairly large and bureaucratic organisation that has more important things to deal with, than disgruntled UK FCL holders. And a country that thinks that it is somehow an equal to a large multinational organisation that it wanted nothing to do with. EU is incredibly rule based and the current third country status was demanded by the UK. Within EASA there is no mechanism to recognise third country licenses; this sadly creates a very peculiar position for those third country license holders that were previously trained within EASA. This is a fact that was known and pointed out to the UK early on in the process, as highlighted in the CAA BREXIT website.

EU regulations have to be ratified by each member state, in order to become national law throughout the EASA membership. Not something that happens overnight. And quite frankly, where is the motivation to make this effort when currently the U.K. isn’t even honouring its existing trade deal with the EU and already asking (demanding) concessions from this deal…

[Big_D]

Contact Approach

Unfortunately, when we left in Jan 2021 our EASA licences became nothing more than an ICAO licence. It is not great, but this is what our elected politicians decided. Do not ask me why.

This is not limited to aviation. There is a huge human cost to de Pfeffel's political choices in various sectors of the economy, such as fishing, manufacturing, banking, professional services. All those people who studied in the UK got shafted by the de Pfeffel's administration.

If you live in a EU country I can only advise to lobby your MEP to change the policy and unilaterally recognise our previously held licences. However, given the recent actions of the de Pfeffel's administration, I would not hold my breath.

[Asturias56]

The problem Big D would be quickly solved in the UK Govt just admitted it had made a mistake (or rather had never thought about it ) and went back to into EASA - that only requires 1 country to do something - not 27

[Big_D]

As I live in a constituency represented by an opposition MP I am not even going to bother to lobby to rejoin the EASA.

Things may change under a different administration, but for now we remain outside the EASA.

[Contact Approach]

What has an EASA flight training course, completed in Spain 2020 got to do with Brexit, the UK gov or anything else you keep talking about, for the purpose of applying for a new Spanish EASA licence?

[back to Boeing]

Because the U.K. CAA have been guardians of those licences and since the 1st of Jan there has been no official oversight of the CAA by EASA. So the U.K. CAA could have done anything to those licences without EASA officially knowing. We know they haven’t in practical terms but officially EASA doesn’t. It is bureaucracy pure and simple but that’s the whole point of a rules based organisation. It is that simple. Without official oversight since the first of Jan those licences no longer comply as EASA licences and so cannot be converted to them without following the official procedure. It comes down to as simple a statement as rules is rules. And EASA (nor any EASA member NAA) cannot unilaterally change their own rules without approval through the EU rules making mechanism. But as has been stated it is what the U.K. wished for and has left MANY professionals high and dry.

[Contact Approach]

Again, that is not what i am saying.

Why are EASA course completion certificates and skills tests completed far away from the UK not recognised for the purpose of applying for an initial EASA licence with a new member state. As an initial licence application!

[Big_D]

back to Boeing

Not just the professionals, but pensioners abroad as well. But this is what 40% of the voters supported in the 2019 GE, so can't complaint.

[bittersweetheart]

I am sorry. But I have had it up to here with all this cakeism and self entitlement.

The UK is a third country to EASA. Exactly as they wanted to be. At their own initiative. Offer of EASA membership post BREXIT was declined by Boris.

The consequences of this decision by the UK, has been crystal clear and expressively laid out in writing. I believe the UK BREXIT Microsite went live early 2018?

Anybody who subsequently went and did pilot training in Spain in 2020, under the UK CAA oversight, failed to do their due diligence.

People who chose to remain in an employment which required a UK issued license, made that decision with the consequences available in black and white.

As one of ‘the three million’ I was faced with the same tough decision as all UK license holders; Do I stay in my current employment and lose EASA privileges. Or do I uproot my wife and kids, sell the house and find a job in the EU? My airline refused to let me SOLI out, and I had to acknowledge I was in charge of my own destiny. Was it an easy decision? Hell no. Am I upset with EASA for simply sticking to the rulebook? For being completely transparent and clear from day one? Deep down I think everybody is well aware of who instigated the current situation and to date keep trying to fit a square pig in a round hole…

I am deeply sympathetic for everyone who got stuck between a rock and a hard place because of BREXIT.
BUT. People need to grow up and stop this cherry picking and end this blame game. You want back into EASA? Welcome back! If not, you are a third country and will be treated exactly like every other third country. Where your training was carried out or which license you held in the past is not relevant. That is the law.

[Contact Approach]

How very condescending, contradictory and frankly stupid. Uprooting during a pandemic in search of new pastures during the worst crises aviation has faced is simply poor judgement and questionable at best.

Still avoiding answering the obvious yet seemingly difficult question.

Do you care to answer why those pilots aren’t simply eligible to apply for a new Spanish licence off the back of their EASA training which was completed with full compliance to EASA standards? What purpose does resitting the exact same training course and skills tests completed all but a few months ago, at the exact same school, in the exact same aircraft with the exact same examiner actually prove?

P.S Some are EU citizens, resident currently in the EU.

[bittersweetheart]

How very condescending and contradictory. Still avoiding answering the obvious yet seemingly difficult question.


how so? The UK is a third country to EASA. Plain and simple. EASA rules do not allow for recognition of third country licenses. No special treatment. What else do you need to know?

[Contact Approach]

You are unable to recognise what it is i am getting at.

[Blake Seven]

Big_D

Yeah, that’s as I see it. But there’s a few conflated opinions on this thread.
Fwiw, I don’t include myself as seeking reissue off an EASA ticket but see a fair few colleagues now having their lives and that of their families turned upside down. Not their fault, advised against converting back to EASA by the Company, so what are they supposed to do?
Not only unable to work in the UK, but spurned by the EU/EASA machine.

Remember, these are EU citizens, not Brits/ 3rd country workers.

[Contact Approach]

Blake Seven,

Finally! Thanks, its simply not a one size fits all kinda problem as you have rightly pointed out.

[bittersweetheart]

I understand what you are getting at. But what a lot of people are trying to tell you, is that regardless of what you feel ‘should’ be the case with a former EASA License, this simply is not the way the law is written. You are arguing that a large multinational organisation of 30+ countries should re-write this law, which then has to be ratified by each individual member state. All of this because a former member state left the organisation. Yes?

[back to Boeing]

Contact Approach

But it is something EASA is unable to do anything about. Ask the U.K. government to lobby the EU to make an exception.

I’m unsure who exactly you’re talking about in discussing your Spain ATO example. But it will be a limited amount of people.

EU students with a U.K. licence. Well the writing was on the wall and as has been said whilst spending 100k they should have been doing due diligence. I’m sorry but that’s the harsh reality of it.

U.K. students with a U.K. licence. They wouldn’t have the right to live and work in the EU anyway so only need an U.K. licence.

EU nationals living and working in the U.K. on 31st dec 2020 will still have the right to live and work in the U.K. either through settled or pre settled status. Pretty much every single EU national that was made redundant would have been made redundant in plenty of time to stay their SOLI out process. Those that weren’t made redundant can still use their U.K. licence.

so exactly on who’s behalf are you upset? Before you accuse me of arrogance. It’s bluntness

[Contact Approach]

bittersweetheart

No that is absolutely not what I am saying.

What i am saying is: irrespective of holding a UK licence, why cant individuals re-apply for a new EASA licence, in a new member state for the issue of an new EASA licence based on the EASA training course they completed under the jurisdiction of EASA pre 1 Jan 2021. Documents to be submitted would be the EASA course completion forms compliant to EASA regs and skills tests, again compliant to EASA regs. The UK or holding a Uk licence has nothing to do with this. EASA are already allowing UK exams to be submitted as part of this process.

To make it even simpler for you, lets imagine you’ve just passed your skills tests and you’re applying for your first licence.

[Banana Joe]

So who is salty today?:E

[bittersweetheart]

Contact Approach

The Answer: The law does not currently allow for this. No matter how unfair you think it is. Sorry but that is what all of this boils down to

[Contact Approach]

Can you point me in the right direction with reference to EASA regs which says that this is not permitted?

[bittersweetheart]

I assume the question is rhetorical. But as there are no provisions that outline the process within the EASA regs, it is not allowed. Therefore such a procedure would necessitate an addition/amendment/supplement to EASA FCL which regulate such a conversion or license exchange based on a previous license.

if enough license holders petition the UK government, as previously suggested, then perhaps the UK can start to negotiate such an amendment or dispensation with the EU (EASA)?

[Contact Approach]

Yes perhaps that is the most pragmatic and sensible approach.

[Camel999]

Hi All.

Does anyone know the best country nowadays to "tranfer" / "convert" a UKCAA ATPL to an EASA ATPL?

I was told Malta was a good option but was made more difficult recently, any suggestions?

thanks

[SpamCanDriver]

Happy to be corrected but as far as I'm aware, it doesn't matter which country you do it in. You still currently have to do the 14exams, medical & sim check

[manflexsrsrwy]

cyprus ,perfect english, they answer the phones and are very helpful

[Superpilot]

I found their email responses slow and the website looks like it was developed in Lotus Notes from 1996. Needs a refresh, a bit like the country.

[rudestuff]

SpamCanDriver

Amazing how many people still think this! If you passed your EASA ATPL exams whilst the UK was a member state then they are still valid. This is very well documented. If you passed your UK-only ATPL exams then yes, you're out of luck.

[dick badcock]

"This site is best viewed with Internet Explorer 5.5+, Netscape Navigator 6.2+"

Hahahaha

[SpamCanDriver]

rudestuff

Like I said happy to be corrected, thanks for doing so.

Good news for me if I ever need to convert back to EASA then

[Rostermouse]

Only if you apply for a new EASA licence within 7 years from the last expiry of an EASA IR. Otherwise you do have to do the exams again.

[rudestuff]

Depending on interpretation all UK CAA IRs ceased to be valid the day we left EASA, or 1 year later. Either way that still leaves until 2027/28 for ATPL validity. Anyone still moaning at that point needs a good shake.

[Contact Approach]

For some unknown reason EASA member states are recognising ATPL exam validity for a a CPL / IR to be only 36 months from the last exam and not 7 years as it should be if you’ve already held an EASA IR. Its absolutely bonkers stuff.

[keenanj01]

I have found myself in this situation regarding the above validity for a conversion of a (F)ATPL. Understood they were to be accepted as passed regardless of validity and it transpires they need to have been passed in the last 36 months. Job offer on the table which requires an EASA licence so I have no choice than to sit the 14 EASA exams again, pass the same EASA IR exam and the same EASA CPL exam again.

Is what it is...