masks yes remove middle seat no in EU

[kpd]

at least not in Europe according to reuters- surely that will help all carriers in Europe?

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-eu-airlines/airlines-will-not-need-to-spare-middle-seat-to-restart-travel-eu-idUSL8N2CU6HW

[White Knight]

Makes sense. Removing the middle seats is just a no-go IMHO... Especially as 'social distancing' is only a temporary measure! Use a mask and practice personal hygiene! Not hard really!

[lomapaseo]

Makes sense. Removing the middle seats is just a no-go IMHO... Especially as 'social distancing' is only a temporary measure! Use a mask and practice personal hygiene! Not hard really!

If that's really the case, how about removing animals from all passenger flights. I especially feel I need distancing from these and it is also not hard

[White Knight]

If that's really the case, how about removing animals from all passenger flights. I especially feel I need distancing from these and it is also not hard

No idea what you're wittering on about??????? :confused:

[Icelanta]

If that's really the case, how about removing animals from all passenger flights. I especially feel I need distancing from these and it is also not hard

Since when does a small dog or cat in a bag/petcase transmit any disease?! 🙄
Small pets do NOT belong in the holds, it is pure torture for them, especially when witnessing the treatment they get from loaders.

[Banana Joe]

If that's really the case, how about removing animals from all passenger flights. I especially feel I need distancing from these and it is also not hard
Charter a private aircraft.

[lomapaseo]

Charter a private aircraft.


It was a conditional question about comparable risks.

I don't believe you can force anybody to wear a mask on a plane and still sell seats.

So like you and others have said "charter an airplane" that fits your mind set

[DaveReidUK]

I don't believe you can force anybody to wear a mask on a plane and still sell seats.

AAL will reportedly deny you boarding if you aren't wearing a mask at the gate.

But the F/As won't (can't) insist that you continue to wear it once airborne.

[Mach E Avelli]

But the F/As won't (can't) insist that you continue to wear it once airborne.

Why not? They can make you wear your seat-belt, hang up on the phone and deny access to the toilet even if you are wetting your pants.
It would not take much to enact a rule about wearing masks, if that's what the industry demands. Peer pressure from other passengers (like the big guy next to you who smacks you in the ear) would take care of any recalcitrant.
As inconvenient and ineffectual as it may be (just like the farce that passes for security), if masks are required we will have little choice but to comply.

[FlightlessParrot]

As inconvenient and ineffectual as it may be ....

It seems that masks are somewhat effective in reducing the risk that someone with the virus (or, indeed other viruses) will infect other people. As you can be infectious without (yet) having symptoms, requiring masks looks pretty reasonable. The authorities are not trying to protect you from yourself: they're protecting other people from the risk you (potentially) pose.

[Mach E Avelli]

I get that, and will wear a mask if that is the requirement. But the effectiveness or otherwise of these masks depends on specifications and quality, so one would hope that airlines will issue a certain standard mask at check in and not accept some junk items passengers buy at the local discount store.
But it won’t give me any great comfort to be stuck in the middle seat between two people who later are found to test positive, masks or no masks.

[DaveReidUK]

Why not? They can make you wear your seat-belt, hang up on the phone and deny access to the toilet even if you are wetting your pants.

It would not take much to enact a rule about wearing masks, if that's what the industry demands.

That was my point - in the absence of such a regulation, the cabin crew's hands are tied.

[fab777]

That was my point - in the absence of such a regulation, the cabin crew's hands are tied.

No need for such a rule. Don't want to wear a mask? Taxi back to the gate/land at the nearest suitable airport, and have you removed from my airplane. I already own that right as a commander, to protect my passengers and crew.

[the_stranger]

No need for such a rule. Don't want to wear a mask? Taxi back to the gate/land at the nearest suitable airport, and have you removed from my airplane. I already own that right as a commander, to protect my passengers and crew.
That is going to be an interesting courtcase, if the passenger decide to sue.
In my country, the experts publicly doubt the use and of masks and there are lots of studies which are conflicted.

I wouldn't be surprised if the passenger succesfully defends the removing of his mask, depending on the country.

Of course you can always try the "passengers are supposed to follow instructions of the crew", but that line has decreases in usefulness too.

​​​​​

[sonicbum]

That is going to be an interesting courtcase, if the passenger decide to sue.
In my country, the experts publicly doubt the use and of masks and there are lots of studies which are conflicted.

I wouldn't be surprised if the passenger succesfully defends the removing of his mask, depending on the country.

Of course you can always try the "passengers are supposed to follow instructions of the crew", but that line has decreases in usefulness too.

​​​​​

The Commander has the authority to give all commands and take any appropriate actions for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons and/or property carried therein. He/she has also the authority to disembark any person (or cargo) that may represent a potential hazard to the safety of the aircraft or its occupants. You remove your mask = you are smoking onboard basically.
The airline should write down in the conditions of air travel (and make sure it is also written all over the place on the website / e-ticket receipt) that it is compulsory to wear a company provided mask anytime onboard the aircraft. Now that brings a couple of problems : 1) what about young children and/or adults with respiratory diseases (such as asthma) whom most likely won't be able to wear a mask for the whole duration of the flight ? 2) It is going to work for short-medium range flights (up to 3 hours I would guess) but what about longer flights ? You can't wear a mask for 15 hours on a long haul flight.

[infrequentflyer789]

Since when does a small dog or cat in a bag/petcase transmit any disease?! 🙄


Mostly: when they come out of the bag/petcase, which they will do at some time. This is why carrying your pet in a bag/petcase does not exempt you from pet quarantine requirements, where they exist. This applies even if you use your own entire aircraft as the bag/petcase (see e.g. Jonny Depp).

However, when talking about respiratory viruses and aerosol transmission the answer is "when the bag/petcase exchanges air with the outside". So, yeah you're right, no problem, as long as the bag/petcase is certified escape-proof and airtight...

[FlyingStone]

That is going to be an interesting courtcase, if the passenger decide to sue.
In my country, the experts publicly doubt the use and of masks and there are lots of studies which are conflicted.
I wouldn't be surprised if the passenger succesfully defends the removing of his mask, depending on the country.​​​​

Local loud-mouth experts are one thing, but if you don't obey safety instructions given by the crew, and ultimately, the commander of the aircraft, the airline's lawyers will - for a fee - be happy to give you a reference to their terms of carriage and Tokyo convention.

[Airbubba]

Reuters report on U.S. airlines mask policies in this post:

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/632341-average-us-flight-17-pax-2.html#post10780884

[PilotLZ]

Try to evaluate pain VS gain and I think that you will find it a worthwhile compromise. Would you give up on a one-week holiday only because you can't tolerate wearing a mask for a couple of hours? Would you ditch negotiations potentially leading to a promising offer for your business just because wearing a mask on the flight is too much to ask for? Would you explain to your friends or relatives that you are not coming to see them anytime soon because you don't want to wear a mask on the plane? This is not going to last forever, I'm quite certain. But, for now, it's the necessary evil to get people flying and hopefully keep as many of us as possible in our jobs.

[John Marsh]

I don't wish to lower the tone of the thread, but what about airsickness? Clearly a mask would have to be removed, briefly and hopefully only once.

How bearable would a mask be after using the bag? Would it still be as effective? Do the current provisions for airsickness need to be modified WRT the pandemic?

[DaveReidUK]

The airline should write down in the conditions of air travel (and make sure it is also written all over the place on the website / e-ticket receipt) that it is compulsory to wear a company provided mask anytime onboard the aircraft.

But the point is that they haven't. And it's by no means certain that they will.

So, notwithstanding the de facto authority of the Commander, once airborne the sanctions that are available against a passenger who removes his/her mask are pretty well non-existent. Suggesting that the F/As get the zip-ties out, or the aircraft divert, is nonsense.

[Icelanta]

But the point is that they haven't. And it's by no means certain that they will.

So, notwithstanding the de facto authority of the Commander, once airborne the sanctions that are available against a passenger who removes his/her mask are pretty well non-existent. Suggesting that the F/As get the zip-ties out, or the aircraft divert, is nonsense.


Anyone not adhering to my command is met by the authorities at destination.
If the safety of my aircraft and/or pax/crew is jeopardised, it is a diversion and charge of attempted unlawful interference.

Do not start nonsens like ‘in court bla bla bla.’ It is of no interest of mine during flight. My ONLY concern at that point is the safety of those onboard. Full stop.

[Consol]

Anyone not adhering to my command is met by the authorities at destination.
If the safety of my aircraft and/or pax/crew is jeopardised, it is a diversion and charge of attempted unlawful interference.

Do not start nonsens like ‘in court bla bla bla.’ It is of no interest of mine during flight. My ONLY concern at that point is the safety of those onboard. Full stop.

It might be worth lightening up just a little bit. A reasonable reading of the scientific information would seem to indicate that masks MAY afford some risk reduction. That's it. There's very little evidence of any in flight infection and everyone needs to use common sense as to when or if they travel. People are going to be very nervous about flying anyway, making it even more terrifying by overanalyzing the minutiae of mask wearing will just make it worse.

[homonculus]

Before I get arrested by Icelanta, may i point out that all a FFP1 mask achieves is a reduction in droplets FROM the wearer. It doesnt stop aerosols, and after it is wet - which will be far less time than terminal to terminal - it is useless. Whenever the wearer touches the mask to adust it, rub their face, eat, drink etc etc they infect their hands. The vast majority of infection is from touching a surface someone else has touched up to 72 hours before. No airline can completely clean every part of the interior and if you watch pax boarding you see them touching every other seat, a couple of overhead locker, the toilets etc etc.

So masks and empty middle seats provide reassurance but little reduction in risk. What is important is the incidence in the countries the pax come from.....but after that it is pure luck as to whether one or more passengers is shedding, and if that is the case expect a significant cluster of cases. That is the science. Whether you can persuade people to fly is to do more with persuasion, reassurance and perceived need.

[DaveReidUK]

Anyone not adhering to my command is met by the authorities at destination.
If the safety of my aircraft and/or pax/crew is jeopardised, it is a diversion and charge of attempted unlawful interference.

Fair enough.

If it comes to that, I predict you're going to be landing at a lot of interesting offline airports over the next year and writing a lot of witness statements for bemused law enforcement agencies.

[733driver]

The vast majority of infection is from touching a surface someone else has touched up to 72 hours before.

I'd be interested in a source for this statement. Just yesterday I read from Prof. Drosten in Germany that according to his best guess only about 10% of infections are from contaminated surfaces. The majority are through droplets and aerosols, according to him.

[homonculus]

An infected person can exhale virus in a droplet, which is large and hyperbaric so heavier than air

or as an aerosol which is simply smaller and hypobaric so it floats on the air

droplets are the majority but have a range of only a few feet. So if you are standing within that range the droplet can get on your face or even in your mouth or nose

but most droplets fall on the floor or another surface where they are called fomites

touch a fomites with live virus, then touch your face, and you may be infeccted

[FlyingStone]

It might be worth lightening up just a little bit. A reasonable reading of the scientific information would seem to indicate that masks MAY afford some risk reduction. That's it. There's very little evidence of any in flight infection and everyone needs to use common sense as to when or if they travel. People are going to be very nervous about flying anyway, making it even more terrifying by overanalyzing the minutiae of mask wearing will just make it worse.

Sure, but at the end of the day, if your airline requires passengers to wear masks, somebody should enforce this? Otherwise you could potentially expose your employer to liability or at best, negative PR, from the other side - "a passenger wasn't wearing a mask, crew did nothing, they coughed and now I'm sick" type.

What do you do with a passenger that doesn't want to sit down when the sign is on? Just leave it?

[Airbubba]

From an AP report about the questions of mask enforcement:

All major U.S. airlines have already rolled out requirements for passengers and crew to wear face coverings in response to concerns over contagion, particularly in small or confined spaces that present higher risks of infection than well-ventilated or outdoor settings.

But the rules are only effective if people are willing to follow them and if the companies ferrying passengers are serious about enforcement.

Pilots worry that travelers could remove their masks and spark a confrontation with others during a flight. They are pressing the Federal Aviation Administration to require masks instead of leaving it up to individual airlines.

“I can’t imagine the stir on the airplane if someone takes off their mask,” said Dennis Tajer, a 737 pilot and spokesman for the pilots’ union at American Airlines. “It puts the flight crew in a precarious position.”

On airplanes, enforcement appears to be spotty at best. American Airlines has told pilots that gate agents may deny passengers from boarding if they aren’t wearing a mask but it doesn’t expect crews to continue policing once they’re in the air.

“Once on board and off the gate, the face covering policy will become more lenient,” according to an American Airlines memo to pilots. “The flight attendant’s role is informational, not enforcement, with respect to the face covering policy. The flight attendants are instructed not to escalate the issue if the passenger refuses to wear a face covering and to consider options, such as reseating if other passengers are involved, to defuse the situation.”

An official with another airline, who wasn’t authorized to discuss the airline’s procedures and requested anonymity, described a similar policy. “We don’t want our crews to be police,” the person said. Instead, crews will report uncooperative passengers to the airline’s security office when the flight is over, the person said.

Even with enforcement, the effectiveness of masks is questionable, especially on planes when passengers remove them for snacks and drinks, touch their faces and spread germs. And in general, many people are donning masks incorrectly, in ways that could increase risks, experts said.


https://apnews.com/8d4122b90ed06c5736eda01ca52d8f42

[FlightlessParrot]

Here are aviation professionals belligerently objecting to being made to wear a mask. On another thread, somewhere, are aviation professionals complaining that passengers never attend to the safety briefing.

[Airbubba]

Here are aviation professionals belligerently objecting to being made to wear a mask.

Where? :confused: Can you give an example on this thread?

[sherburn2LA]

This afternoon I completed my third round trip since all this started. I am in the US and there were pretty close to the aforementioned 17 passengers. My experiences - one airport recommended masks the other required it. But it was not being enforced even for employees although most if not all had them if not actually on. That said it is pretty easy to maintain more than the recommended 6 feet.

On the plane all except on person had them on but it was pretty easy to dob them off once settled since we were so far apart. Even a couple of the flight attendants didnt keep them on which I did find surprising. For myself I wear a loose fitting scarf under a makeshift plastic face shield and drop the scarf when not near anybody. So I might sneeze on your feet but not in your face. Flight was only an hour so no big deal. When flights are longer and fuller choices will be more difficult.

In most places here there are mask requirements small children and people with asthma are excluded. Anybody could claim they have it. Enforcement on fuller flights will be social (or not so social) pressure from nearby. Masks are supposed to protect others not really yourself so if you fiddle with it or touch your face it is mostly your problem not theirs. I try and get settled then alcohol wipe my hands then try not to touch anything except with an intervening object or cloth. I am sure I touch my face all the time when reading.

[guy_incognito]

Here are aviation professionals belligerently objecting to being made to wear a mask. On another thread, somewhere, are aviation professionals complaining that passengers never attend to the safety briefing.

I haven't seen anyone belligerently objecting. However, there's the little matter that as far as I know no masks have yet been approved as safe to wear in the cockpit; thinking specifically about compatibility or not with quick-donning oxygen masks.

[sonicbum]

Before I get arrested by Icelanta, may i point out that all a FFP1 mask achieves is a reduction in droplets FROM the wearer. It doesnt stop aerosols, and after it is wet - which will be far less time than terminal to terminal - it is useless. Whenever the wearer touches the mask to adust it, rub their face, eat, drink etc etc they infect their hands. The vast majority of infection is from touching a surface someone else has touched up to 72 hours before. No airline can completely clean every part of the interior and if you watch pax boarding you see them touching every other seat, a couple of overhead locker, the toilets etc etc.

So masks and empty middle seats provide reassurance but little reduction in risk. What is important is the incidence in the countries the pax come from.....but after that it is pure luck as to whether one or more passengers is shedding, and if that is the case expect a significant cluster of cases. That is the science. Whether you can persuade people to fly is to do more with persuasion, reassurance and perceived need.

I am no expert on masks, but as far as I know surgical masks protect around You at a reasonable level for several hours, otherwise surgeons would have to call in sick every single time they sneeze. Surgical masks are light and less annoying to be worn than FFP2 and 3, so if everybody on boards constantly wears one the risk reduction would be significant I believe. Now the problem is, as we have said, not everybody can and will wear one for different reasons (legit or not) so it's either wearing a mask remains just a recommendation and there's nothing much you can do as PIC of the flight or it does become a rule and then it's a different story. We shall see I guess.
Just to add, i would not feel super happy as a pax travelling next to somebody not wearing a mask who coughs every now and then. I know there can be 100 reasons to be coughing, but in in this age and time I believe we are all very skeptical.

[Gove N.T.]

AAL will reportedly deny you boarding if you aren't wearing a mask at the gate.

But the F/As won't (can't) insist that you continue to wear it once airborne.
Masks muffle the speech and hides the mouth making it very difficult for we deaf people to understand what is being asked or told, especially with all the background noise generated by aircraft in flight and the general mayhem at the boarding gate.
Like many rules made up by staff in offices distant from airports and divorced from reality the AA rule, if true, is destined to fail because it may well be considered discriminatory to the disabled.
Removing the middle seat is ridiculous especially in premium cabins since there are few if any.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

The Commander has the authority to give all commands and take any appropriate actions for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons and/or property carried therein. He/she has also the authority to disembark any person (or cargo) that may represent a potential hazard to the safety of the aircraft or its occupants. You remove your mask = you are smoking onboard basically.
The airline should write down in the conditions of air travel (and make sure it is also written all over the place on the website / e-ticket receipt) that it is compulsory to wear a company provided mask anytime onboard the aircraft. Now that brings a couple of problems : 1) what about young children and/or adults with respiratory diseases (such as asthma) whom most likely won't be able to wear a mask for the whole duration of the flight ? 2) It is going to work for short-medium range flights (up to 3 hours I would guess) but what about longer flights ? You can't wear a mask for 15 hours on a long haul flight.

And what happens in the case of a decompression. Not sure face masks have been trialed with O2 masks. You'd have to be very quick getting your face mask off and your O2 one on.

[sonicbum]

And what happens in the case of a decompression. Not sure face masks have been trialed with O2 masks. You'd have to be very quick getting your face mask off and your O2 one on.

An extra bit of demo during the FA briefing on how to remove the mask and don your oxy mask in case of decompression. An extra couple of drawings on the safety cards.

[vikingivesterled]

People who spend their time thinking of, sometimes far fetched, reasons for not wearing a mask, are not the type to take others into consideration. Any arguments for will most likely be water off a ducks back since masks mainly protects others rather than the wearer. Mask wearing in the cocpit behind a closed door should really be up to wether the pilots trust each other to have taken every other precaution, which one would assume they do. It is also up to airline management to take a wiser line in these times than the usual; unless you are dying you have to come to work.