Dutch F-16 flies into its own bullets, scores self-inflicted hits. Fighter lands OK.

[NutLoose]

And pressing home the attack past the safety height / distance.... One would say, this time a Dutch F-16, had similar on one of our Jags.

https://www.rt.com/news/455756-dutch-f16-shot-itself/?utm_source=miximedia&utm_medium=miximedia&utm_campaign=Miximedia

[megan]

Winched the pilot of Mirage A3-75 out of a swamp after total loss of thrust following the drop of a Mk. 82 Snakeye on the range, possible ingestion of a bomb fragment. Wreckage not recoverable due nature of swamp.

[Rhino power]

And pressing home the attack past the safety height / distance....

Really? How do you know this was the cause?

-RP

[TBM-Legend]

MIrage 111O at Williamtown "Salt Ash" gunnery range.

[NutLoose]

Really? How do you know this was the cause?

-RP

I don't. I was saying it is the classic symptoms.

[Bob Viking]

I’m with RP on this one. Can you substantiate your claim that ricochets are directly related to late firing?

It’s an easy statement to make but I’m not sure it’s one you can prove.

All the ricochets that I’ve heard of were just bad luck. With the Aden cannon in particular you have to get in pretty close to be accurate so it’s just a hazard of the job. I can’t quote ranges for a Vulcan cannon.

BV

[Runaway Gun]

There was an Aermacchi in NZ that suffered similar. Turns out the range sandpit had lots of lead bullets sitting in the target region, and ricochet occurred.
Range Ops were suspended until it was dug up and filtered.

[F-16GUY]

I can’t quote ranges for a Vulcan cannon.



I can. Cease fire at 2200' slant range on low angle strafe (5-15 degrees). This will give you a minimum ground clearance of 75' if shallow and fast (worst case: 5 degrees and 500KTS).

By the way, the marks on the Dutch F-16 looks more like marks from either a faulty gun system (misaligned) or faulty ammo (slow burner that is hit from behind by next round). We have seen those marks quite some time after we started to use hi velocity rounds in our F-16's.

Look at the position of the damage the pictures in this article:
https://defence-blog.com/news/netherlands-f-16-fighter-jet-literally-ran-into-its-own-rounds-during-exercise.html/amp

Perfectly aligned with the gun....

So yes, it shot itself, but it was not due to pilot error or some type of warp speed dive.

PS. In our fleet at least, you will be able to find more 3 jets with patches in this region due to similar incidents. I only recall on where the projectile or some of it made it all the way into the cockpit. To out some electrical panels next to the throttle.

[Bob Viking]

I had no idea you would need to get so close with the Vulcan. I assumed that, with a much higher muzzle velocity, you would have increased stand-off.

That cease is actually closer than we use currently in the Hawk. Although we used to get closer on the T1. Not by much though.

Interesting points about the possible malfunction as well. Scary!

BV

[Onceapilot]

Does anyone else notice the sensational dumbed-down way that those "defence news" articles treat an interesting military weapon problem? Thanks for the info F-16 Guy, the impact damage does look to be from a tumbling type object. Thanks

OAP

[SASless]

"Close" is a term of variable definition.

In the day of the Huey Gunship....mud on the windscreen was our definition of "close".

"Close" in those days was common.

[Ascend Charlie]

Megan, was that Truckie?

[F-16GUY]

I had no idea you would need to get so close with the Vulcan. I assumed that, with a much higher muzzle velocity, you would have increased stand-off.

BV

The 2200' refers to the minimum allowed. Normally guys will pull of around 3000' on low angle strafe (pink body agains ground reflex). 12000' is the max open fire range, but we learn our guys to wait until closer as the dispersion and thereby the effectiveness of the strafe pass is increased the closer you get to the target.

For steeper angles the min range and pull-off distance increase. for 25 degrees high angle strafe the cease fire slant range is around 5500', and 7000' is the number for 45 degrees high angle strafe pass. However, the increased min range does not mean less precision as the bullets tend to disperse less the steeper the angle. 45 degrees is highly effective with good self protection built in against manpads and small arms fire, but at night on NVG's we don't go steeper than 25 degrees as the workload is to high and we might risk target fixation and ground clobber. At night however the darkness works well for us with regards to being spotted.

I am 100% sure that this incident is a gun/ammo malfunction as the marks on the jet looks very familiar.

[Bob Viking]

So not really a ‘classic ground target ricochet’ at all then?!

Good info thanks. Those ranges are more what I expected to hear.

For comparison the cease fire range in Hawk T1 was 1950’ with a minimum of 1650’ from 10 degrees. With no HUD!

BV

[noprobs]

Way back when I used to do this risky stuff, we experienced quite a few such incidents. A couple of Harrier losses at Holbeach were most likely due to ricochet. One was fatal, suggesting that the pilot took the 30mm ball round. I suffered minor airframe ricochet damage in both Harrier and Jaguar, both only noticed after landing.

A significant factor on the range was the accumulation of dead rounds in the ground around the target. If a fired round hit a lying one, either could jump into the air just before the firing aircraft passed quite low over the target as it recovered. It was very important that the target area was regularly raked clean of old rounds. It was also unfortunate that we often had right-hand range patterns, and the Aden spun the round clockwise, making it possible to collect someone else’s round downwind.

With HE, ricochet was less of a problem, although it was wise to remember if firing at a splash target that the first few rounds cocked in were ball, which skim quite nicely off water. Premature detonation was a risk, and was sometimes visible not far in front of the muzzle. That didn’t feel too bad when you got used to it with the low-mounted guns in the Harrier and Jaguar, but I hope that the F35A’s neat shoulder mounted gun has more reliable ammunition.

[F-16GUY]

BV

Nope, most likely slow burner hit from behind by next round.

[megan]

Megan, was that Truckie? Never knew the gentleman but records say PLTOFF J.W. Carr, Dutson range. It was before the days of SAR availability, and the local civil operator provided any required SAR response. Ross Mathieson, who you undoubtedly, know worked for the same operator and happened to be on duty and responded to the Navy Wessex ditching and Roulettes Macchi fatal head on collision.

[peterperfect]

Pretty close to the canopy release button too. Might have got a whole lot windier for the pilot ?

[Pontius Navigator]

Noprobs covers the dirty target case. Pembrey had large sand backed targets and lots of 30mm and definitely needed regular raking but it only needs a few to cause a ricochet.

Another cause is the soft target that is not as soft as you think.

An aluminum armoured vehicle is termed 'soft' but can still throw rounds off.

[cliver029]

Sitting on the OP on the Asahan Range watched a Canberra of another Airforce which after dropping a practice bomb stay straight and level to photo the hit just to see it bounce back and hit the rear of the aircraft.
Not sure what the lasting damage was but I suspect that there were a few words spoken later!

[NutLoose]

Ah well, at the very least it has generated some interesting discussions.

I suffered minor airframe ricochet damage in both Harrier and Jaguar, both only noticed after landing.

One of our Jags had a nice crease on the lower port wing from a round hitting it, we also had one took a round through the intake and a second one creased the canopy.

[Bob Viking]

Can you definitely say that those Jags were in too close when they fired?

I hope you see my point. To a casual observer a ricochet might ‘obviously’ be caused by being too low/close but the reality is often different. Despite what you may think about FJ pilots, they do not routinely break the rules for fun. Those antics are, mostly, reserved for the bar.

BV

[NutLoose]

True, but I wasn't saying they had, I was just telling the person I quoted of the damage we had on ours. though to have a round hit the intake from behind, the canopy and also the wing, the Jag would have to be out running them, and it struggled to get airborne let alone out run a round.

All the damage was either aft or directly above the gun muzzle and the intake ones were through the lower intake but not the upper, so the round passed out through the open intake.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nutty, not sure what you are driving at. A Jaguar was no slouch, we once did a bombing trial with the Jag at 525kts.

A cannon round may be faster with a muzzle velocity of 2,600fps compared with the delivery aircraft at around 900fps, but the round will slow and loose energy on impact and deflection. It would also have a longer flight path on ricochet.

[superplum]

I recall a Jaguar of ** Sqn being hit by a ricochet at Deci around 83-84. The round had penetrated the stbd wing underside adjacent to where the front of the outer pylon was located - the round was still in situ! Sad thing was that it was only discovered by the see-off crew during the next pilot's walkround.

:rolleyes:

[PastTense]

The Netherlands’ Defense Safety Inspection Agency (Inspectie Veiligheid Defensie) is investigating an incident during a January military exercise in which a Dutch Air Force F-16 was damaged by live fire from a 20-millimeter cannon—its own 20-millimeter cannon. At least one round fired from the aircraft’s M61A1 Vulcan Gatling gun struck the aircraft as it fired at targets on the Dutch military’s Vliehors range on the island of Vlieland, according to a report from the Netherlands’ NOS news service (https://nos.nl/artikel/2278988-f-16-boven-vlieland-geraakt-door-eigen-kogel.html).Two F-16s were conducting firing exercises on January 21. It appears that the damaged aircraft actually caught up with the 20mm rounds it fired as it pulled out of its firing run. At least one of them struck the side of the F-16’s fuselage, and parts of a round were ingested by the aircraft’s engine. The F-16’s pilot managed to land the aircraft safely at Leeuwarden Air Base.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/04/dutch-f-16-takes-cannon-fire-from-itself/

[atakacs]

I’ll defer to more knowledgeable persons but it smells like BS

[Mach2]

If you leave your pull out a little late (ie too close to the target) and/or don't pull up positively enough, you can fly through the area of possible ricochets and catch your own bullets. It happened to a Jaguar on a sister squadron in around 1982/3 if memory serves.

[gums]

Salute!

I go with the ricochet theory.

If you ever see the pattern when you have tracers, it is surprising how high some of those puppies go. And then you run into one doing 400 or 500 knots. Not a big problem with HEI, as they do not richochet 99.9 % of the time.

It's also dependent upon dive angle and such. I sure wouldn't and didn't strafe down in the weeds versus any target that might have a secondary. We used 20 or 30 degree dive and fired way out there.

Gums sends...




ricochets

[fallmonk]

A Grumman F11 Tiger shot itself down 1956 and am sure there was a missile issue with a F14 many moons ago.

[Harley Quinn]

Nutloose started a thread on this subject a day or two ago.

Who said pilots were bright?

[Reader not a writer]

Saw it happen to a course mate in the pattern ahead of me at Pembrey in 1986. Punctured his wing fuel tank and he departed the range and made it back to Chivenor without further incident. He had not infringed any min ranges or low heights.

RNAW

[NickB]

Wasn''t there a dodgy TV series about 15 years ago about a fictitious Tornado F3 squadron - they were using the ranges and one caught a ricochet in the front bang seat that went off after landing?
ISTR some really dodgy characters and a mostly carp story line...

[Jhieminga]

See here: https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/620280-classic-ground-target-ricochet.html

[fantom]

I shot myself down on Rashid range (Sharah) in a Hunter. Ricochet 30mm. Went down the engine and stripped it clean. Landed dead-stick and should have got a medal but didn't. The Mil Mod will confirm; he was the lead until I shot HIM down with my nape tank drop a few minutes before.

[DODGYOLDFART]

fantom reminds me of a trial carried out in the '50's regarding putting Russian amour out of action with Hunters and 30mm Aden cannon. Some bright spark in the RAF Armaments Branch presumably at Boscombe Down got the idea that whilst 30mm would not penetrate Russian armour it was capable of making a nasty mess of tank tracks. Fortunately the trial was carried out on the ground at Foulness and was quite successful, except for the ricochets and shrapnel from the tracks which reached a considerable height. Thus common sense prevailed and they did not try it with a real flying hunter. The armament bods went off to look for something else instead and eventually settled on SNEB.

[Lone Kestrel]

A Grumman F11 Tiger shot itself down 1956 and am sure there was a missile issue with a F14 many moons ago.
There was a warning in the F14 NATOPS not to fire the gun when above M1.4 (I think that was the speed) when in straight and level flight as there was a danger of catching up with the bullets - the gun was angled up to help in dog fights.

[DroneDog]

Is the pilot allowed to claim this as a kill and paint a little kill symbol on his cockpit?

[Out Of Trim]

I recall while working at Pembrey Sands in the early 1980s that a TWU Hawk T1 took a ricochet and they found the spent round on the cockpit floor. Can't remember if it was from Chivenor or Brawdy.

[farefield]

And that pilot (JB) lives in Horsham too!

[blimey]

it is surprising how high some of those puppies go.

I got a gentle dink passing 1000' - all legal on the film debrief.

[Ogre]

I recall doing a see-in for a singe seat OCU Jag back in 1984, after shutting down the pilot came round the nose and walked down the side of the aircraft. As I was helping the tanker driver get the hose on he suddenly appeared again and said "you may want to leave that just now, I almost shot myself down over the range and it went through the engine door...."

Sure enough, there was a nice little hole through the outer skin of the starboard engine, if it had gone through the inner skin it would have mangled the fuel management system

[newt]

All this chat about firing range, dive angle, speed etc is all well and good but in my experience there is always the unknown factor that can cause ricochet damage! It’s a dangerous business and things happen that can’t be explained even by the sharpest QWI!

[Finningley Boy]

Thejs Dutch Guysh, day are crazhy!

FB

[Timelord]

So, all we have been talking about is ricochet damage. Would it be theoretically possible, or has it ever happened, that you meet your own bullets in the air? You fire your gun and the rounds have your velocity plus muzzle velocity but they are slowing down and dropping. If the firing aircraft dives and accelerates would it be possible, if extremely unlucky, to get back together with your own rounds?

[unmanned_droid]

So, all we have been talking about is ricochet damage. Would it be theoretically possible, or has it ever happened, that you meet your own bullets in the air? You fire your gun and the rounds have your velocity plus muzzle velocity but they are slowing down and dropping. If the firing aircraft dives and accelerates would it be possible, if extremely unlucky, to get back together with your own rounds?


Yes it is possible. Rounds leaving the barrel begin decelerating immediately. An aircraft can accelerate and manoeuvre. But, you would have to be trying quite hard.

There was comment up thread about it being a risk for the F-14.

[Tengah Type]

Timelord.

Yes it can, as referenced by Fallmonk in post#30.

On 21 Sept 1956 a Grumman test pilot Thomas W Attridge Jnr managed to do it in a Grumman Tiger ( Bu no 138620 ). He was flying over Long Island Sound, when, at 20,000ft he fired a 4 second burst from his 4 x 20mm cannon. He maintained heading, selected reheat, and descended to 7000ft before firing a second burst. He was then hit by several spent rounds which shattered the windshield and damaged the engine. He attempted to return to Long Island airfield, but the engine failed on short finals and he crashed in woods short of the runway and was severely injured. He returned to flying 6 months later.https://www.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon11.gif

The F14 incident was on 20 June 1973 when another Grumman test pilot, Pete Purvis, was flying with WSO William Sherman from Point Mugu in California. They fired an AIM 7E Sparrow, which pitched up after launch and hit a fuel tank. Both ejected safely.

[Pontius Navigator]

The F14 incident was on 20 June 1973 when another Grumman test pilot, Pete Purvis, was flying with WSO William Sherman from Point Mugu in California. They fired an AIM 7E Sparrow, which pitched up after launch and hit a fuel tank. Both ejected safely.

I recall one of our instructors, around 1969, had a similar near miss In an F4M.