Good news for RAF Student Pilots: [Archive]

airpolice

27th Sep 2018, 22:16

My sources tell me that Linton will shortly be a happier place, despite the imminent closure, as (some of) the students there who thought they faced years of holds, will soon be off to a hot and dusty climate to fly jets.

In what has been described as the MoD finally seeing the light, the farce at Valley is to be sidestepped by some students, and the hyper efficient operation at Sheppard AFB in Texas will be training the next batch of RAF Pilots.

MFTS at Valley has almost 50 QFIs and can't produce the quantity or quality of students that the Typhoon OCU need. Indeed some courses at Valley have recently produced no output to the Coningsby OCU at all, but the "course" graduation was still processed, so the civvy contractors got paid just the same. Despite having all the resources they asked for, and effectively taking over the station, the MFTS Contractors have consistently failed to come up with the goods. So it's not much of a surprise that the penny has finally dropped and for the second time, Fast Jet Lead In Training has been outsourced, but this time to an Air Force that knows how to train pilots.

What on earth has been going on at the top of the tree?

wokawoka

28th Sep 2018, 01:26

Ha ha ha,

They are too busy patting themselves on the back for a bad job badly done instead of providing Mil Flying training.............. and still robbing the MoD blind. When you see the calibre of individuals posting comments on that post - you understand it all.

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6450654624746659840

[email protected]

28th Sep 2018, 08:09

And the same farce is being played out at Shawbury with MFTSH - but so far no ballsy decision to address the problem.

622

28th Sep 2018, 11:03

...Maybe they could look after the Air Cadet Gliding after the pigs ear we made of it! :E

bafanguy

28th Sep 2018, 13:06

In what has been described as the MoD finally seeing the light, the farce at Valley is to be sidestepped by some students, and the hyper efficient operation at Sheppard AFB in Texas will be training the next batch of RAF Pilots.

So the USAF is taking on foreign students ? Will they be trained by USAF instructor pilots (or US contractors) in USAF aircraft at Sheppard AFB ?

I thought the USAF lacked enough training capacity for its own purposes yet they're taking in non-US students ?

I must be overlooking or missing some critical facet of this deal.

Background Noise

28th Sep 2018, 13:32

So the USAF is taking on foreign students ?

Non-US students have been trained at Sheppard for years. The aircraft (T-38s at least) are German-owned and, since 1981, the staff are multi-national.

https://www.sheppard.af.mil/Library/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/367537/euro-nato-joint-jet-pilot-training-program-enjjpt/

muppetofthenorth

28th Sep 2018, 14:00

So the USAF is taking on foreign students ? Will they be trained by USAF instructor pilots (or US contractors) in USAF aircraft at Sheppard AFB ?

I thought the USAF lacked enough training capacity for its own purposes yet they're taking in non-US students ?

I must be overlooking or missing some critical facet of this deal.
When somebody else is paying for it, capacity can always be found.

Which does beg the question, how much are we paying for it, in respect to what they 'should' be getting?...

Tay Cough

28th Sep 2018, 14:17

I was under the impression the RAF had always put the occasional stude through there in the past as a matter of course.

Danny42C

28th Sep 2018, 14:34

So, the wartime "Arnold Scheme" lives again ! ("What goes around, comes around"). Always did make sense: the Southern States had the climate and the air space for flying training - Europe didn't - and hasn't.

Then as now, my "Primary" was at a USAAC Base ("Carlsrtom Field"), but operated by the "Embry-Riddle (Civilian) School of Aviation", who supplied the Instructors.

From: "The Official Website of "The Arnold Scheme (1941-1943) Register"™

"Unfortunately nearly 50% of British cadets did not successfully complete pilot training under the scheme, being eliminated ("washed out"), usually without the right of appeal. Between 1941 and 1943, some 7,885 cadets entered the scheme and of the 4493 who survived training, most were returned to the UK as Sergeant Pilots, with many being posted to Bomber Command". However, 577 of the graduates were retained for a period of approximately one year as Instructors."

Plus ça change, plus c'ést la même chose .....

bafanguy

28th Sep 2018, 15:01

Non-US students have been trained at Sheppard for years.

Yes...and probably other bases too. A good buddy was a T37 instructor in the late 60s and even trained some Iranian students. In somewhat recent history, Afghan pilots were trained by the USAF [I made reference to a somewhat famous female Afghan pilot and her efforts to bail on the process...lost track of her and her status).

My question was more related to the current situation claimed by the USAF that they lack the training capacity to train enough of their own pilots which contributes to their current "shortage".

I guess the USAF has plenty of capacity if they can give training slots to non-US pilots ?

Ormeside28

28th Sep 2018, 15:08

As one lucky enough to be trained in Texas from 1943/1944 at 1 British Flying Training School at Terrell, 30 miles east of Dallas, I envy those equally given good fortune. We didn’t suffer the “hazing” that the Arnold Scheme students suffered, but I hope that wiser counsels now prevail. Good luck to the new students, happy landings and good relations with the Texans.
There is a Museum of the BFTS in Terrell. Well worth a visit.

Background Noise

28th Sep 2018, 15:30

When somebody else is paying for it, capacity can always be found.

Which does beg the question, how much are we paying for it, in respect to what they 'should' be getting?...

Less than MFTS I would think.

It's not necessarily somebody else paying. The aircraft at Sheppard were all GAF owned, not sure about the T6 now but assume the T-38s are still German, and the IPs were mostly German until the advent of ENJJPT. Cost-wise, it was reckoned to be a lot cheaper in terms of pounds per hour. As I understand it, UK went into it to be 'part of the program' as well as the easy potential to surge - an extra 20 studes a year would have been be a drop in the ocean but completely unattainable here.

For all the time RAF studes were involved, it only went as far as (then) wings ie post-AFT, so there was quite a penalty in cost and time doing TW back in UK, and the associated AFT/Hawk convex/UK orientation. Since 1994, ENJJPT has included Fighter Lead In or 'Intro to Fighter Fundamentals' so studes could potentially go from there to the OCU, depending on previous UK experience. Failing that, a short spell on the Ton would cover it.

bafanguy

28th Sep 2018, 16:00

We didn’t suffer the “hazing” that the Arnold Scheme students suffered, but I hope that wiser counsels now prevail. ...happy landings and good relations with the Texans.

Are you expecting a bunch of Brit pilots to suffer harassment and mistreatment at the hands of Texans ?

Minnie Burner

28th Sep 2018, 16:05

The true cost of closing the TWUs in finally realised.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x682/31359163436_c1df03aed6_b_f2ee05098b246a50d51be5c029dc9023644 4accb.jpg

Ken Scott

28th Sep 2018, 17:14

The true cost of closing the TWUs in finally realised.

Perhaps the heads of the RAF are finally beginning to appreciate what replacing the old training system with MFTS has meant?

Saintsman

28th Sep 2018, 17:15

chopper2004

28th Sep 2018, 17:25

I was under the impression the RAF had always put the occasional stude through there in the past as a matter of course.

And there has been an instructor. The RAF yearbook 1994 has an excellent article on both RAF students and instructors at ENJJPT

Also one famous Harrier GR5 display pilot in the early 1990s published a nice paperback book with lots of nice photos , went through ENJJPT in the late 80s.

Cheers

AdLib

28th Sep 2018, 17:59

Thank you Minnie B. Suddenly got very dusty in here.

Danny42C

28th Sep 2018, 18:01

Ormeside (#11),

Lucky devil - you had it good ! Located near a town airport, with all the town amenities, (including your choice of "southern belles" with their convertibles on tap to pick you up and take you to the pool), spare a thought for us "Arnold" boys, "out in the sticks" on some God-forsaken Army camp, miles from anywhere, with nowhere to go - and no transport to get us there !

"Hazing" was only a problem for our first Courses, as the RAF "Kay-dets" (LACs, actually) would, of course, have nothing to do with it.

airpolice

28th Sep 2018, 18:13

Yes...and probably other bases too. A good buddy was a T37 instructor in the late 60s and even trained some Iranian students. In somewhat recent history, Afghan pilots were trained by the USAF [I made reference to a somewhat famous female Afghan pilot and her efforts to bail on the process...lost track of her and her status).

My question was more related to the current situation claimed by the USAF that they lack the training capacity to train enough of their own pilots which contributes to their current "shortage".

I guess the USAF has plenty of capacity if they can give training slots to non-US pilots ?

Can you point me at an example of this claim, that they are short of capacity?

SATCOS WHIPPING BOY

28th Sep 2018, 18:13

I guess the USAF has plenty of capacity if they can give training slots to non-US pilots ?

Equally, I guess the UK has plenty of capacity if they can give training slots to non-UK pilots ?

I thought that the closure of bases like L-o-O was in th ebest interest of families too, keeping them together etc...OK, the married guys will most likely be accompanied but the non-married ones in long-term relationships won't. Families feel isolated enough at Valley, unable to regularly visit their UK family and friends, how is moving the shebang to the States going o make this easier for them?

I know two pilots who went through training together here in the UK from Grobs to Tucs; their paths diverged and one went stateside, the other to Valley. The Valley pilot was only a handful of trips shy of course completion when the stateside guy took his first jet solo.

The valley pilot is now complete in training and doing a proper job, the one in the states is still in training.

Danny42C

28th Sep 2018, 18:16

bafanguy (#13),

Heavens, no ! But the first "Arnold" Course were the "Lowerclassmen" for the last US Course of "Upperclassmen", and so were treated accordingly as in time immemorial (ie as a baby treats a diaper). There was no animosity against us: they would've treated their own people just the same (West Point, you see).

bafanguy

28th Sep 2018, 18:37

Can you point me at an example of this claim, that they are short of capacity?

Sure. I posted a series of related articles in this forum some of which contained mentions of USAF training capacity or lack thereof. I looked back back to answer your question until I got bored but here's what I found with ease; there are likely other mentions:

"We've dug into the details and analyzed the issue. It really comes down to two areas that we are investing in and focused on," Goldfein said before a House Appropriations Defense subcommittee hearing alongside Wilson. "One is how many pilots we produce and then, two, how many pilots we retain, because you have to get both of those right."
He said the service is on track to reach its 1,400 pilot-per-year goal, but not for another couple of years."

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/03/14/air-force-sets-goal-20-flight-hours-month-pilots.html

The Air Force is also planning to move some of its lieutenants to Navy and Marine Corps squadrons ― which Holmes acknowledged have also been struggling with pilot production limitations ― to fly Navy EA-18 Growlers and Marine F-35s.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/11/20/accs-gen-holmes-air-force-straining-to-train-enough-new-fighter-pilots/

"...Working to increase the training pipeline. The Air Force now produces 1,200 new pilots each year and is working to get that up to 1,400, although officials say it needs to hit 1,600 to keep up.

But even with all those programs, the problem continues to worsen.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/11/21/break-this-force-air-force-warns-cuts-manning-woes-could-hurt-war-zone-fight/

Fareastdriver

28th Sep 2018, 19:50

I thought that the USAF's problem was a lack of suitable recruits.

bafanguy

28th Sep 2018, 20:10

I thought that the USAF's problem was a lack of suitable recruits.

I'm not sure about "suitable". Maybe it's just sheer numbers of "willing" ? I really don't know.

The USAF has to train enough to cover what they identify as a "shortage" and they seem to have a training choke point with system capacity.

That ~12 year commitment looks formidable to someone contemplating a flying career when a civilian route can move a lot faster than that particularly in the current environment (that'll change eventually).

Maybe there's something about candidate suitability in this thread:

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/602193-usaf-pilot-retention-rates-bonuses.html

Ormeside28

28th Sep 2018, 21:18

bacanguy, I feel that you think that I am advocating a return to hazing, certainly not. We had 20% American Aviation Cadets on our course18 at Terrell. And they regaled us with horror stories of hazing, eating square meals and so on.. within a couple of weeks they were calling themselves and us by their and our, Christian names, swinging their arms when marching and MATES, Lots of us were “adopted” by local families, contacts which carried on until, sadly, their demise. No, Texas will always be dear to me. I was very proud of my RAF Wings, but equally proud of my American Wings, given to me by my Texan Instructor. Thank you!

bafanguy

28th Sep 2018, 21:34

bacanguy, I feel that you think that I am advocating a return to hazing, certainly not. I was very proud of my RAF Wings, but equally proud of my American Wings, given to me by my Texan Instructor.

O28,

No, I certainly didn't think that. I apparently misunderstood a mention of foreign pilots and Texas. I was just reassuring everyone that no group of Brits would receive a hostile environment in Texas or anywhere else here.

RAFEngO74to09

28th Sep 2018, 21:35

The lucky bunch that gets to go on ENJJPT will have a great time. They will receive their instruction with a proper military ethos and they will be wowed by the scale of facilities and high standard of infrastructure on a typical USAF base. They will get a valuable early introduction to the culture and career aspirations of NATO colleagues. Some of them probably won't want to come back !

I will never understand why the RAF didn't fully commit to using ENJJPT when they dismantled a flying training organization that used to be the envy of the world. When I was on the HQ RAFSC Flight Safety Staff, the scale of AOC TU's empire was mind boggling: HQ CFS & School of Refresher Flying at Leeming; FTSs at Cranwell, Linton-on-Ouse, Church Fenton, Valley and Finningley; FSS at Swinderby; and Kemble / Scampton (Red Arrows) + all the RLGs.

ENJJPT Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSWZods3JIM

Recent Graduation Videos - including the wide range of role disposal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9FMjLMv1HE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHqri3DjUuA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF3wNWO53jM

ENJJPT14-02 Graduation Video - a bit more content showing off-duty aspects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Yk-hz6QdA

Dan Winterland

29th Sep 2018, 05:56

Perhaps the heads of the RAF are finally beginning to appreciate what replacing the old training system with MFTS has meant?

The rot started in 1993 with the contractorization of EFTS. Those of us in the system believed that once the process had started, there would be no turning back and one day, the RAF will realise there will be no-one left to train the new pilots. We predicted it would take 20 years. We were five years out!

Lima Juliet

29th Sep 2018, 08:59

airpolice

29th Sep 2018, 17:43

The use of ENJJPT is an ADDITION to the UKMFTS AJT output. Don’t forget MFTS was designed when we thought we needed far fewer pilots (2010 and before) so what we have right now is just not sufficient if we want to GROW the Typhoon Sqns in number as directed by SDSR 2015.

We have had plenty of RAF students on ENJJPT in the past, so this is a logical step. The only issue is that to get students on the course then the Air Force that is getting a place needs to provide instructors. That is a good and bad thing, as it takes precious pilots from the RAF’s core strength requirement (bad) but it also generates more pilots and tours at Sheppard are likely to be retention-positive for our instructor cadre.

I have an ENJJPT light-weight CWU jacket and it’s still going strong after 20+ years - it’s a prized possesion!

I must have missed a page...

In the 2015 SDSR, three years ago the RAF were told they needed more pilots, yet they closed 208 Squadron, and have now started to re-open it called 25 and basing it where?

So... if they knew before they closed 208, that they needed more pilots than MFTS could deliver, why close 208?

Can anyone point me at a reliable source of figures for:

How many pilots have graduated from Valley in each of the last three years?

How many QFI's have graduated from Valley in the last three years?

If all of the students destined for Valley, and currently there (if any) went to another country to be trained, would the 60 or so QFIs released from Valley be enough to allow the growth in F-35 & Typhoon force that was asked for in 2015?

Lima Juliet

29th Sep 2018, 18:51

@airpolice

In the 2015 SDSR, three years ago the RAF were told they needed more pilots, yet they closed 208 Squadron, and have now started to re-open it called 25 and basing it where?

So... if they knew before they closed 208, that they needed more pilots than MFTS could deliver, why close 208?

It’s not that simple. 208 Sqn ran on for a lot longer than originally planned but had to stop as the Hawk T1a fleet hours need to be managed - burn too many more and then no Red Arrows, RN fleet aggressors or 100 Sqn. Now you could argue that manning the front line is more important, but the T2 was deemed sufficient at the time.

25 Sqn is a wholly different debate, effectively cutting IV Sqn down the middle and the 28x T2s are split. It would make sense if there were 20+ Hawks on the line each day, but normally it is mid teens or sometimes worse!

Now I am no fan of UK MFTS, but it is what it is. There is no quick replacement option and so really the best solution is to let it run and see what it can deliver - then we can backfill around it with either more of the same aircraft or outsourced solutions like ENJJPT, the L3 CTS multi engine training and maybe some more to come.

Carping on about the good old days does no one any good in this instance and the current circumstance IMHO :-)

andrewn

29th Sep 2018, 20:14

@airpolice

It’s not that simple. 208 Sqn ran on for a lot longer than originally planned but had to stop as the Hawk T1a fleet hours need to be managed - burn too many more and then no Red Arrows, RN fleet aggressors or 100 Sqn. Now you could argue that manning the front line is more important, but the T2 was deemed sufficient at the time.

25 Sqn is a wholly different debate, effectively cutting IV Sqn down the middle and the 28x T2s are split. It would make sense if there were 20+ Hawks on the line each day, but normally it is mid teens or sometimes worse!

Now I am no fan of UK MFTS, but it is what it is. There is no quick replacement option and so really the best solution is to let it run and see what it can deliver - then we can backfill around it with either more of the same aircraft or outsourced solutions like ENJJPT, the L3 CTS multi engine training and maybe some more to come.

Carping on about the good old days does no one any good in this instance and the current circumstance IMHO :-)
So in the case of the Hawk T2 squadron split, who deemed that necessary - the MoD or ASCENT? I know the T2s are MoD owned, but the training output is managed by ASCENT I assume?

Back to the question by airpolice, I'd assumed that 208's disbandment was nothing to do with required training output as ASCENT were contracted to deliver this with the 4 Sqn T2s? And latterly, at least, 208 was training foreign studes only wasnt it?

All quite confusing, the salient point as mentioned being that HMG has done a fantastic job at systematically dismantling a training system that was once the envy of the world. Not something anybody responsible should be proud of.

airpolice

29th Sep 2018, 20:18

Carping on about the good old days does no one any good in this instance and the current circumstance IMHO :-)

I do not agree. Looking back to when it worked ok is a sure way to see that it's not working now.

The front line is absolutely more important, and has now been sacrificed for the Reds, and other reasons of course.

208 could have been given access to the T2 and carried on producing pilots, but instead, the output from 4FTS has dried up to a trickle of not for for purpose students at 29 Squadron, according to the gossip at the coal face in Lincolnshire.

airpolice

29th Sep 2018, 20:20

All quite confusing, the salient point as mentioned being that HMG has done a fantastic job at systematically dismantling a training system that was once the envy of the world. Not something anybody responsible should be proud of.

To the point where the next generation of RAF Fighter Pilots, are being trained by the Germans.

You couldn't fork and make this up!

RAFEngO74to09

29th Sep 2018, 21:10

To the point where the next generation of RAF Fighter Pilots, are being trained by the Germans.

You couldn't fork and make this up!

The recent breakdown of the ENJJPT command structure, countries providing instructors (including those that have no students) and students is shown on the Sheppard AFB website - link below. The students are not all trained by Germans (although I suspect that was just banter !).

Extracts:

"The ENJJPT is a uniquely manned multi-national organization with a USAF wing commander and vice commander and an operations group commander in the top three leadership positions. The OG commander is based on country participation. Command and operations officers' positions in the flying training squadrons rotate among the participating nations, while the commander of the 80th Operations Support Squadron is always from the USAF. Additionally, officers from all 14 participating nations fill subordinate leadership positions throughout the wing. Five nations -- Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Norway and the United States -- provide instructor pilots based on their number of student pilots. Canada, Greece, Portugal, Spain and Turkey do not have student pilots in training, but do provide one instructor pilot. As an example of this totally integrated structure, an American student pilot may have a Belgian instructor pilot, a Dutch flight commander, a Turkish section commander, an Italian operations office, and a German squadron commander."

"ENJJPT is also unique with its four distinct training programs. In addition to Undergraduate Pilot Training, ENJJPT also provides for its own Pilot Instructor Training (a program that teaches pilots to be instructor pilots), Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals, and IFF Upgrade Instructor Pilot training. About 200 student pilots earn their wings at ENJJPT annually after a 55-week, three-phased training regimen. About 80 new instructor pilots are trained annually and up to 150 pilots transition through IFF each year. All this training is supported by a staff of more than 1,400 military, civilian and contract personnel employing 201 T-6A, and T-38C training aircraft."

"The benefits of the ENJJPT Program are many -- lower cost, better training environment, enhanced standardization and interoperability, to name a few. Another important aspect of ENJJPT is the bond of friendship and respect developed among all participants in the 80th FTW. The student pilots and staff instructors of today will be the leaders of NATO's air forces of tomorrow. Having trained together, they will be much better prepared to fight and win together when the need ever arises."

https://www.sheppard.af.mil/Units/80th-Flying-Training-Wing/

https://www.sheppard.af.mil/Library/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/367537/euro-nato-joint-jet-pilot-training-program-enjjpt/ Updated July 2017.

Lima Juliet

29th Sep 2018, 21:36

208 could have been given access to the T2 and carried on producing pilots, but instead, the output from 4FTS has dried up to a trickle of not for for purpose students at 29 Squadron, according to the gossip at the coal face in Lincolnshire.

Mate, you are so wide of the mark. The number of aircraft and QFIs is pretty much the same with one T2 squadron as it is with two - the reason why IV was split and XXV was stood up was for easier command and control of a very large sqn. If I recall correctly IV was around 40-50 QFIs and 28 jets so it kind of made sense to split it in half to make it easier to manage - 14 jets and 20-ish QFIs is kind of more the normal size of a FJ sqn.

Any ‘trickle’ of students is for many different reasons than you state - sacking nearly 200 student pilots in 2010/2011 after SDSR 2010, ceasing recruiting, slowing flying training for 3 years and then having a slow start for MFTS is more likely to be the issue. Oddly enough after a 3 year hold the few that escaped the redundancy in 2011 are now your so called ‘trickle’ with a ‘flood’ quickly queing up behind them! Oddly enough if you add even the legacy zero-to-hero FJ pipeline, that was around 4 years, to this 3 years onto 2011 then you get 2018 - that’s odd, that’s where we are now! FJ flying training is like a supertanker that takes 4 years to turn on and off...regardless if it is contractor assisted or not.

airpolice

29th Sep 2018, 21:41

14 jets and 20-ish QFIs is kind of more the normal size of a FJ sqn.

In which air force, today?

airpolice

29th Sep 2018, 21:43

Mate, you are so wide of the mark. The number of aircraft and QFIs is pretty much the same with one T2 squadron as it is with two - the reason why IV was split and XXV was stood up was for easier command and control of a very large sqn. If I recall correctly IV was around 40-50 QFIs and 28 jets so it kind of made sense to split it in half to make it easier to manage - 14 jets and 20-ish QFIs is kind of more the normal size of a FJ sqn.

Any ‘trickle’ of students is for many different reasons than you state - sacking nearly 200 student pilots in 2010/2011 after SDSR 2010, ceasing recruiting, slowing flying training for 3 years and then having a slow start for MFTS is more likely to be the issue. Oddly enough after a 3 year hold the few that escaped the redundancy in 2011 are now your so called ‘trickle’ with a ‘flood’ quickly queing up behind them! Oddly enough if you add even the legacy zero-to-hero FJ pipeline, that was around 4 years, to this 3 years onto 2011 then you get 2018 - that’s odd, that’s where we are now! FJ flying training is like a supertanker that takes 4 years to turn on and off...regardless if it is contractor assisted or not.

So, tell me why 208 couldn't have had half of the 4 Squadron QFI's and airframes back then, instead of giving them to 25 now?

Timelord

29th Sep 2018, 21:53

I think it is true that HMG/RAF have managed to destroy a training system that was once regarded as the best in the world but I am not sure that it is all the fault of MFTS. I trace it back to the 90s when the organisation was renamed TGDA - Training Group something Agency. And the officer in charge was called- really- the Chief Executive. I had to try to explain it to a visiting Norwegian General who was bemused. “Chief executive? - surely it’s a military organisation?” That was the moment that the ethos was lost.

Lima Juliet

29th Sep 2018, 22:05

208 Sqn was folded in 2016 when IV Sqn was to be able to take the student output. The T1a and T2 are totally different airframes (avionics and performance) and so the QFIs from 208 would need converting to T2 before they could instruct - some made the crossover, some went elsewhere and some went back to the frontline or staff jobs.

Honestly, the closure of 208 was not just taken on a whim. There was not enough hours on T1a to keep the flying rate of 208 going and those hours were needed for other things - such as providing live radar and BFM targets for 29 Sqn’s OCU sorties! The only way to fix that is to get some jets to replace the ones that the T1a is used for, but again that also takes time. One of the biggest T1a tasks being Air Support to Defence Operational Training (ASDOT) - https://defense-update.com/20180318_asdot.html

Lima Juliet

29th Sep 2018, 22:07

In which air force, today?

“kind of”. ???

Timelord

30th Sep 2018, 16:59

airpolice

30th Sep 2018, 17:54

So, to summarise UK Flying training at the moment as I understand these forums (fora?.):

Multi engine students are going to L3
FJ students are going to the USA
The helicopters are too small for the rear crew and the Prefect is too small for tall pilots.
Years of holding are common
29 are not happy with those that do make it out of Valley.

What else can go wrong - oh yes, we haven’t got the T6 at Valley yet!

Well... actually... they have got them there.

They just aren't allowed to fly them.

This just gets more absurd every day. Imagine trying to explain this kind of farce to Oliver Cromwell.

We have bought new weapons for the army, to fight in the next war, and we want to use the people that we beat in the last war, to train our troops. Presumably not because they are so good, since we beat them.

However, the people that we saved, by beating the people who we now want to use as teachers, have got together with some of the other people we beat, and other people that we saved, and they have decided that we can't use the new weapons.

We can't buy other weapons, that we would be allowed to use, made here by our own people, because we spent all the money buying weapons made by foreigners.

The reason that we can't use the weapons, due to the rules imposed by the people we beat and the people we saved, is that Parliament agreed to abide by the rules of the people we beat etc. etc.

At which point Cromwell would have you run through with a sword for being stupid, and then march on Parliament, to ask what the **** they are up to?

drustsonoferp

6th Oct 2018, 18:53

Onceapilot

6th Oct 2018, 19:34

Hmmm,..... I guess this situation is exactly how our "Lords and Masters" want it to be? :yuk:

OAP

airpolice

6th Oct 2018, 19:37

Hmmm,..... I guess this is situation is exactly how our "Lords and Masters" want it to be? :yuk:

OAP

Indeed, it seems that way. Otherwise, a reasonable person might expect heads to roll.

Martin the Martian

7th Oct 2018, 12:20

Question regarding the weather.

Someone mentioned that the weather is better in the Southern States. This allows for more consistent and regular flying and therefore can be done quicker, but are US trained pilots at a disadvantage when they return, because they don't have the experience flying with the crappy weather we often get in the UK?

Germany and the Netherlands used to run courses for their new pilots who had returned from the US to acclimatise to European weather conditons, airspace and the general way of doing things before they started OCU training. The Germans used Alpha Jets and I think the Dutch did a short course on the F-5.

By the way, is there still any RAF involvement at the Canadian NATO school?