Time to upgrade to FO and CN at Cathay

[Numero Crunchero]

I have started this thread simply to give what is likely to be a more accurate guide to upgrading to First Officer and then Captain at CX.

The first thing to watch out for – being told what the “current” time to upgrade/command is. That only applies to those that joined 4 or 11 years ago. Currently those being upgraded to First Officer joined 3- 4 years ago. Those on Command course joined around 11 years ago.

We have recruited just under 2,000 pilots in the last 11 years and we have only exceeded 100 command courses/year on one occasion so far. We have recruited 700 in the last three years.


We have over 500 Second Officers now and by years end we expect to have almost 800 with only 10 SOs to be upgraded to FO this year. (Due to new Rostering policies they now need a lot more SOs and a lot fewer FOs)

I’ve used actual figures from 2011-2017 inclusive and used CX projections for 2018.


Based on that, a new joiner with DOJ 31/12/18 would upgrade to FO 6.6 years and to Captain in around 30.3 years. Now that is using an average rate for a, presumably, growing airline. I say presumably as we have actually remained the same size for the last three years.

If I ‘assume’ we will grow again at the same rate we did for the previous two decades then time to FO reduces to just over five years and time to command reduces to 17 years. My assumption of growth rate is OPTIMISTIC given the management plan for 2018-20 and the current industrial impasse in regards to the training ban. In other words – it will probably be longer than 5/17 years.



So you may be told upgrade to FO is 3 years and command time is 10.5 years – which it WAS for those that joined in 2007 and 2014. If you are planning on a career here – plan on 5-6 years as an SO. Plan on 17+ years till command(regardless of whether you join as an FO or SO)

(By the way – top increment on SO scale is reached after three years service. For a First Officer it is after about 13 years. )

[Brokeidiot]

Good info very accurate I would say, only thing you don’t mention and it’s probably just because it’s hard to now the numbers is the ever increasing resignations.

Good job otherwise.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

"So you may be told upgrade to FO is 3 years and command time is 10.5 years – which it WAS for those that joined in 2007 and 2014"

So 2013 joiners for example can still expect CN within 11 years? Very positive thinking on your part!

think he was referring to 3yrs to Fo joining in 2013

[Numero Crunchero]

Triple7driver
No! Not at all! If you want an accurate idea for current employees just post on the thread in AOA forums or PM here or there!

Broke idiot - in a way the data is reflective of the resignations in that command and FO upgrade plans account for past CN and FO departures. The current high resignation rate is predominantly from lower ranks so not too much distortion of my time to command estimates. However I have assumed a growth rate starting from late this year- if it doesn’t grow due resignations time to upgrade will stretch out!

We are losing a lot of CNs but a lot due retirement- that was foreseeable. So most of the unforeseen resignations are from the FO/SO ranks


Current employees
The above does not mean anyone joining before the end of this year will have 3-4/10.5 years to FO/Command. If you joined in say, late 2010, your time to command would be about 14.5 years(ie mid 2025) based on the 2018 plan and assuming back to long term growth from the end of this year. Remember, we have actually not grown for the last three years.

[Progress Wanchai]

Good info very accurate I would say, only thing you don’t mention and it’s probably just because it’s hard to now the numbers is the ever increasing resignations.

Good job otherwise.

Chances are any xpat joining now will resign within the first 5 years.
So 30 years for a CX command is optimistic. The average pilot joining CX now will never hold a CX command.

[shinytubedreamer]

Numero Crunchero

Wannabe chiming in here.. just out of interest if one does not qualify as a JFO after all those years of babysitting the autopilot do they get to continue as an SO or do they get fired? cheers

[Cpt. Underpants]

I’m not NC, but to answer your question about “professional second officers”, no, CX does not continue employment if the SO candidate fails to upgrade.

[Avinthenews]

The only time SOs get to babysit the autopilot is if they are seated with a captain and said captain is operating the sector as PM and said captain decides he wants to continue with the radio and flight plan paperwork.

So expect to touch the autopilot maybe once a month, if that, for half a decade as said above.

[shinytubedreamer]

The only time SOs get to babysit the autopilot is if they are seated with a captain and said captain is operating the sector as PM and said captain decides he wants to continue with the radio and flight plan paperwork.

So expect to touch the autopilot maybe once a month, if that, for half a decade as said above.

Oh dear.. it seems to me like some cheap way of finding a "qualified" personnel to fill up the flight deck on a long haul flight, just to do the most mundane stuff...sure a free cadet course is hugely tempting but I think I'll pass on that.

Gotta thank you all for providing vital information which the typical starry-eyed wannabe would otherwise not know!

[Trafalgar]

Warm body. Effectively that is all they need an SO for (not meaning to be condescending, just realistic as to how CX management see most of you). They are happy to wasted upwards of 5 years of your productive pilot life. Anyone coming here as an SO now is effectively wasting a large percentage of their career potential. Harsh, but true nonetheless.

[Avinthenews]

CXs tactic is basically to get the rusty seniority handcuffs onto you with shiny jets, just enough pay and useless hours for the time as SO. By the time you're ready to leave you'll have lost 7 years minimum now.

[Will IB Fayed]

So tell me, how long to widebody FO at Qantas?

[ACMS]

Or Command.

[bm330]

Really?!?

What ever happened to being a pilot? :ugh:

The career path at Cathay consists of years watching someone else fly, a compressed conversion course followed by 80 (or so) sectors where you actually get to fly. If you don't pass - you're fired. If you do pass, you get to operate 24 sectors a year - probably down closer 12 (1/mth) as Relief.

Find a Company and learn to fly. It won't happen in Hong Kong. Those days are long gone.

[Shot Nancy]

So tell me, how long to widebody FO at Qantas?

Or Command.

You are not adding to the informed debate by introducing incommensurable information.
Home country versus expat, narrow body versus widebody - who cares.
Look at your potential position say 10 years (married with children), then 20 years, then 30 years (kids left home) down the track and see what is an acceptable option.

[Dilbert68]

Really?!?

What ever happened to being a pilot? :ugh:

I couldn't agree with you more bm330. Unfortunately, the passion for aviation is non-existent in a large percentage of the new joiners that I fly with. Could be that they never really gave a sh!t or that Cathay has sucked the enjoyment right out of the job.

For those of you that actually want to be pilots and fly, CX is not the place. You will be far happier and ultimately more competent if you join a company where you will get plenty of hands-on flying.

[Frogman1484]

These are the confirmed numbers of who has left since October 2017.

37 Captains (7 from bellow 500 senirotiy, who probably hit 65)
11 Fo's
10 So's

Total 57

The list is not 100% accurate with regards to the SO's and Fo's as the list with DEFO messes up the numbers.

This does not include the pilots that have given notice, these are the ones that have phsically left the building.

[Trafalgar]

Will be interesting to see how many are serving our their three month notice from the beginning of the year. The numbers are starting to add up. Those that have left have already secured their seniority numbers at their new carriers.

[Trafalgar]

I believe 3 or 4 YVR based Captains just handed in their notices. Not many left on that base now.

[Frogman1484]

Considering that 10 years ago they introduced cos 08, so I wonder how many guys are going to reach 65 and 55 ( cos 99) during the next few months?

[cxorcist]

There was an ex-CX FO who ran these numbers. They were so discouraging that he left ASAP for Delta and is now a captain there. CX is a very young pilot group. If you think retirements are going to catapult you up the seniority list, think again! Resignations? Perhaps, we shall see. Of course, if enough resign, there won’t be an airline to fly for anymore.

[Banana Joe]

This thread is an eye opener. I was thinking of applying for a SO position and I might still do it, but it would only be gain some widebody experience. I will try to follow how things evolve at CX and possibly apply in future as FO and consider CX as a long term career option in the unlikely event time to command reduces to less than 10 years. I want career progression.

[cxorcist]

This thread is an eye opener. I was thinking of applying for a SO position and I might still do it, but it would only be gain some widebody experience. I will try to follow how things evolve at CX and possibly apply in future as FO and consider CX as a long term career option in the unlikely event time to command reduces to less than 10 years. I want career progression.

Stay away! SO time is NOT widebody experience. It’s no experience at all. As for time to command, it’s above 11 years now and heading UP rapidly. There is almost no movement presently.

[Banana Joe]

Thanks for the hint. I might consider it in a couple of years when I might qualify for a DEFO – depending on time to command trend.

[Threethirty]

Time to command trend only going up

[plainpilot11]

It’s evident that they have NO plans to grow the airline, but that any growth will be on the KA side, or shrinking the CX side. Yes, SO time will be rapidly growing PAST 6 years, doesn’t count for anything, and I don’t think time to command will come down below 12 years, and could go as high as 15. Hiring needs on a global scale are so good right now, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to come to CX.

[OK4Wire]

Plain pilot: since you are on this thread, I assume you read the very first post that said
Based on that, a new joiner with DOJ 31/12/18 would upgrade to FO 6.6 years and to Captain in around 30.3 years., so I wonder where you are plucking "go as high as 15 years" from?

[plainpilot11]

Plain pilot: since you are on this thread, I assume you read the very first post that said
, so I wonder where you are plucking "go as high as 15 years" from?

I assume also that you read the thread as well! There were numbers that were sprayed all over the board, 17, 17+, 30.3 (had to laugh on that one, c’mon, .3???) as I assume you read. The number that was landed on at the end was 17+, as I assume you read. 15 isn’t that far off of 17+. I’massuming you have basic math skills. I’m assuming you’re reading this too.

The “plucking” of the number comes from my intuition that Cathay will not be a viable employer if they are sitting at 30.3 years to command. What I’m considering, is that even as we’ve seen resignations increase at an amazing rate for this airline, I believe that they will only increase, and increase among senior FO’s, which will affect the upgrade time. Not dramatically, but 30.3 is “off reservation.” IMHO.

Now, I’m assuming we are on the same team, and the reason we’re on this thread is we want as many people as we can to know that CX isn’t the employer they used to be, and we’re desperately hoping enough folks leave before we do to get our kind employers attention and get us some things sorted out. Oh wait, I’ve already got apps out as that hope is shot. Good luck.

I’m assuming you’ll need it. Pluck up your courage, mate.

[Frogman1484]

So let’s say you are going to take 17 years to command, you then need to get to Senior Captain 7 level before you get the $30+ HKPA. That is 26 years at Cathay before you can afford a 3 bedroom apartment!

[voyager2]

For a new joiner, 17-20 years to command sounds about right to me. DFO has stated growth rate is targeted at between 3-4% PA. Numero Crunchero is correct, airline has been static over past 3 years.

Assuming a command comes around every time the airline doubles in size (and yes, that is a conservative assumption - if number of Captains required is less than half of total aircrew, airline would need to more than double in size), then command would be around 18 years (4% growth)-24 years (3% growth).

So 20 years + is probably a good ball park figure to use for a guy joining now.

Thats not what CX are telling guys when they interview them........

[OK4Wire]

You are right, Voyager. But I think it's actually worse than that because you (accurately) used AT's growth rate forecasts!

Surely she can't be telling the truth on this, but lying on everything else?

[cxorcist]

Projecting time to command for a 2018 new joiner is nearly impossible, especially for a time horizon extending that far out (15-20+ years). There are so many unknowns. Will there be growth? If so, at what rate? Will there be contraction? Yes, this is often rumoured and consistent with many 77W going back to lessors and a possible spin-off of all or some of the cargo operation. Will the airline be sold off to the Mainland or some other bidder? Or will it just go out of business altogether and the assets sold off? How many will resign and retire early? This will largely be driven by hiring at other airlines. Also, many of the NJers now have no chance to pass the command course at the current standard. Will the standards go down for captains as they have for FOs and SOs?

So many questions, so few answers. Standard CX! Uncertainty abounds and drives good employees away... It could be such a great job but simply isn’t. The lack of a true seniority system and roster bidding/control makes CX a ridiculous outlier in the airline industry. Change or fail! It really is that simple. Actions, not words...

[DropKnee]

Don’t worry, soon you will upgrade in just a matter of months with direct entry Capt. The clowns on the third floor will decide not one FO is worthy enough to command a A-330 to TPE.
Doubt it??? Just watch it happen.

[Soul planet]

or try lucky air


https://youtu.be/tIQ1MG-t-Jc?t=502

[Farman Biplane]

The vast majority of commands in the future will be via the Dragon stream and it will be less than 2 years to command for the foreseeable future.
KA is about to be fully integrated into CX and all the A330’s transferred to their AOC as they increase their pilot numbers via recruiting and secondment from CX.
The inbound narrow body replacement/expansion will also fuel the growth and quick command progression. Some will argue that they don’t have the training capacity and that the command course pass rate is abysmal, but that will be “altered” and adjusted by CX. The KA management pilots are just as eager to feather their own nests as the CX management pilots and SSI’s.

[cxorcist]

The vast majority of commands in the future will be via the Dragon stream and it will be less than 2 years to command for the foreseeable future.
KA is about to be fully integrated into CX and all the A330’s transferred to their AOC as they increase their pilot numbers via recruiting and secondment from CX.
The inbound narrow body replacement/expansion will also fuel the growth and quick command progression. Some will argue that they don’t have the training capacity and that the command course pass rate is abysmal, but that will be “altered” and adjusted by CX. The KA management pilots are just as eager to feather their own nests as the CX management pilots and SSI’s.

While the above makes sense, I have yet to hear anything to this effect from the third floor or otherwise. How do you know this?

[OK4Wire]

While I have no reason to doubt Farman's knowledge on this matter, I suspect that our 3rd floor would be the last to know, so you not hearing anything from there is probably not significant.

[Dragon Pacific]

So how will that work when they seem determined to drive KA into CC and a training ban too?

[Trafalgar]

Like everything else, it will come as a complete 'surprise' to our management.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

depends what fleet you are on, will probably become difficult with the new rostering program they will be using soon. Putting a single day of reserve in the middle of a block of days off so you can't go anywhere

[gulliBell]

While I have no reason to doubt Farman's knowledge on this matter, I suspect that our 3rd floor would be the last to know, so you not hearing anything from there is probably not significant.

That made me chuckle, al-be-it briefly.

[SloppyJoe]

depends what fleet you are on, will probably become difficult with the new rostering program they will be using soon. Putting a single day of reserve in the middle of a block of days off so you can't go anywhere

You can still self certify for up to three days, 1 day of reserve should be OK.

[Galaxy32]

Any new info regarding more SO's being upgraded instead of more DEFOs? Apparently they are not getting the DEFO numbers hoped for.

[crwkunt roll]

Putting a single day of reserve in the middle of a block of days off so you can't go anywhere
Which is a MANUAL input to what is supposed to be computer driven.

[Trafalgar]

...which I will then input a MANUAL correction to remove, if you know what I mean :E

[Scoreboard]

This thread is an eye opener. I was thinking of applying for a SO position and I might still do it, but it would only be gain some widebody experience. I will try to follow how things evolve at CX and possibly apply in future as FO and consider CX as a long term career option in the unlikely event time to command reduces to less than 10 years. I want career progression.



haha just listened to a 3 year s/o whine that this very day he discovered that his upgrade now wont happen til 2021.....another 3 years of having no hours count towards ****....the p2X rating means nothing ....its not a rating your experience is nothing that is tradeable....I felt sad for a second then that moment passed....he was the one said he wanted the shiny jet future....just didnt realize till right then what he got himself into.....what a moment watching some realize what they have bought into this **** outfit.

[shinytubedreamer]

haha just listened to a 3 year s/o whine that this very day he discovered that his upgrade now wont happen til 2021.....another 3 years of having no hours count towards ****....the p2X rating means nothing ....its not a rating your experience is nothing that is tradeable....I felt sad for a second then that moment passed....he was the one said he wanted the shiny jet future....just didnt realize till right then what he got himself into.....what a moment watching some realize what they have bought into this **** outfit.

That makes 6 years as an SO and the CX bond for cadets is 7 years. Correct me if I'm wrong but that means 6 years on rubbish pay and useless hours, then probably 5 more years to gain some significant flying hours (considering the amount of two stripers I've seen acting as Relief pilot and not actually performing takeoff and landings), meaning that it would be upwards of 11 years before a young joiner can have some prospects of jumping ship and aiming for a better life elsewhere on the bottom of the seniority list of another airline? The maths just don't add up... when you fly A319s with some European LCCs you'd be sitting comfortably in the Left seat by then.

[cxorcist]

haha just listened to a 3 year s/o whine that this very day he discovered that his upgrade now wont happen til 2021.....another 3 years of having no hours count towards ****....the p2X rating means nothing ....its not a rating your experience is nothing that is tradeable....I felt sad for a second then that moment passed....he was the one said he wanted the shiny jet future....just didnt realize till right then what he got himself into.....what a moment watching some realize what they have bought into this **** outfit.

Many hundreds more just like him. The worst part is that these guys believe the office workers in HR over what they read here. Surely they know better deep down, but the hope springs eternal. Shiny jets, big money in HK! Reality is pollution covered jets (and lungs) and the most expensive city in the world, but they just won’t listen. Idiots!!!

[DropKnee]

Many hundreds more just like him. The worst part is that these guys believe the office workers in HR over what they read here. Surely they know better deep down, but the hope springs eternal. Shiny jets, big money in HK! Reality is pollution covered jets (and lungs) and the most expensive city in the world, but they just won’t listen. Idiots!!!

The ignorance of youth. Remember they know everything.
Just goes to show, you can not help stupid.

[cxorcist]

It’s like getting a job paying $20-25 USD an hour and thinking you’re making big bucks because grew up in Kansas. The only catch is that the job is in NYC, and $25 an hour there has a person living like a pauper.

Same in HK! Are you listening all you starry eyed boys and girls? The local CX package in HK has you living like a pauper, and no, you have zero chance of ever getting a base in your home countries. Bases are for expensive, expat pilots. You are cheap! Your place is in HK.

I don’t know if bases will ever open again, but if they do, it will only be to get the expats out of HK. After that, they’ll be closed up so tight it would take an act of God to open them again.

[cxorcist]

pauper? :}:}

Correct. Thank you. Edited.

[CXtreme]

And then after 11 years some manager decide that he don’t like something he miss read on your file and Cat D you. You will not get the opportunity to explain or defend yourself.
And by then it will be to late to start somewhere else.

[BlunderBus]

And let’s face it the HR people know ALL about airline ops !!!! Not
That generic ‘people mover’ degree isn’t worth the parchment it’s written on yet they excel at making folks miserable.

[cxorcist]

Was chatting with a NJer yesterday and informing him that his command is probably 15-20 years off. His reply was that that timeframe is reasonable for a legacy carrier. To which I replied, CX is NOT a legacy carrier.

Nothing about CX is “legacy” except for its history. CX is a shell of its former self, no better than any number of Asian carriers on the passenger side and most like an ACMI carrier (Atlas/Polar/Southern) on the cargo side. CX is a far cry from AA, AC, DL, or UA. Nowhere close to a FedEx or UPS. Doesn’t treat its emplyees nearly as well as Southwest. Has none of the prestige or career paths of SQ, QF, BA, LH, or AF/KLM. In short, CX is just another crappy contract job in Asia. Any $ allure is completely negated by the cost of living in HK, but try explaining that to someone in their twenties or early thirties working regional or LCC jobs...

This is the lie WE are up against.

[Trafalgar]

So, 15-20 years BEFORE becoming a captain. Dealing with CX management rubbish, and constant cuts to your pay and benefits. Wow, that sounds like a GREAT career decision. Don't worry cxorcist, most people aren't even turning up for the interviews anymore. Additionally, just spoke to a DEFO, and he told me he's leaving next month as he can't stand anything about CX, it's culture and certainly not its management.

[The FUB]

Just a thought. Trainers with a DEFO they too get disillusioned as the trainee tells them the lies that brought them to cx and how quick they wish to leave. Why bother explaining and waisting your breath? Time To Weep.

[GTC58]

I think 15-20 years to command for new hires is very optimistic. There are approx. 230 2007 pilot hires on the seniority list. I believe none of those are on command course. Considering 10 command courses this year and who knows how many in the coming years the math is quite simple. If we consider around 80 command courses a year (from 2019 on) this would result in that an early 2007 hire can expect now a command course at around 11.5 - 12. 5 years and a late 2007 hire can potentially look at 15.5 years to command.

This does not take all the CAT A'd pilots into account who deferred their command course and who are waiting for a B777 course.

I believe there were no new hires in 2009 and only a limited amount in 2010. So time to command for 2008 hires would increase, worst case up to 18 years, while 2010 hires see a decrease in time to command and from then on time to command would increase again.
Also to consider is that CX hired (since approx. 2005) more pilots per year then offering command courses per year. Sometimes by a factor of four if taken an average of 80 command courses per year into account.

But maybe I am wrong and CX is able to offer 200 command courses per year and time to command will come down. :}

[cxorcist]

I think 15-20 years to command for new hires is very optimistic. There are approx. 230 2007 pilot hires on the seniority list. I believe none of those are on command course. Considering 10 command courses this year and who knows how many in the coming years the math is quite simple. If we consider around 80 command courses a year (from 2019 on) this would result in that an early 2007 hire can expect now a command course at around 11.5 - 12. 5 years and a late 2007 hire can potentially look at 15.5 years to command.

This does not take all the CAT A'd pilots into account who deferred their command course and who are waiting for a B777 course.

I believe there were no new hires in 2009 and only a limited amount in 2010. So time to command for 2008 hires would increase, worst case up to 18 years, while 2010 hires see a decrease in time to command and from then on time to command would increase again.
Also to consider is that CX hired (since approx. 2005) more pilots per year then offering command courses per year. Sometimes by a factor of four if taken an average of 80 command courses per year into account.

But maybe I am wrong and CX is able to offer 200 command courses per year and time to command will come down. :}

I think your math is quite accurate. I have looked at this big hiring cluster from 2006-2008. It’s massive, and they haven’t offered a single 2007 hire a course, to my knowledge anyways. Late 2007 and 2008 hires are looking at several more years in the right seat.

Also, many more senior FOs whom have bypassed command waiting for a 777 course or other personal reasons are taking courses now on the Airbus. With the all the A350s coming, the fleet isn’t nearly as bad as it once was. Yet, if you’re a captain stuck on the 747, tough luck! Didn’t you know you were hired by Connie Pacific?

[Numero Crunchero]

We have averaged 200 recruits pa for last 8 years including this year's plan. We have averaged 65 commands pa for last 8 years including this year's plan.


DEFOs

Rumours abound about SAA pilots coming here. For any budding DEFOs regardless of where you come from, please be aware of a couple of facts. I don't want to comment on the politics/acceptance of taking the job, just the harsh reality of it - in terms of roster/lifestyle and basings.


YOU WILL BE GETTING THE WORST ROSTERS for at least 5-8 years after getting here because you will be, and will remain, the most junior FOs bidding for roster choices. There will be somewhere between 550-800 SOs senior to you who will be upgraded over that time period. Every SO that upgrades to FO is senior to you in terms of roster bidding/bases/lifestyle choices.

If you are told you will likely get a basing - you are being misled. There are 100s and 100s of pilots who want bases. They will all be senior to you.

Time to upgrade was 10.5 years - it will blow out to 15+++ years due to the bulge of recruits over the last 10 years. I was told time to command was 3-4 years, but might blow out to 6-7 years. I got mine in 9 years.



So whether you take the job or not - at least be aware of what will really happen and not the 'half truths' you might be told in the recruitment process.

PM me if you want more details

[Veruka Salt]

Folks, the bottom 19 CNs are 2007 hires.

[AQIS Boigu]

Lets not get too excited here.

With 174 FOs to go in 2007 the numbers posted above are spot on.

2007 and 2008 were big hiring years with over 400 guys joining CX.

Folks, the bottom 19 CNs are 2007 hires.

[reazasassain]

So in 2020 the most junior Captain will be a 2007 hire. And with another 200 guys from the 2008 class the last one should be upgrade by 2023. Rounding out the time to command at 15 years. What a future to look forward to. You can only pray there will be a ton of guys cat D'd and guys refusing to come off their base. Even with significant expansion the time will not come down by much.

Warning to DEFOs. Your future here is not bright. I hope you like flying through the night to India.

P.s. Your DFO loves to say how South Africans are the Phillippenos of aviation. That should say it all.

[Trafalgar]

That good old DFO of ours, always with just the right thing to say to boost morale. I wonder what this weeks quote from Mao will be....

[Trafalgar]

Speaking of South Africans, it seems the DFO's only hope is to turn CX into a satellite operation of SAA. If the company goes ahead with a JNB base, with direct entry captains, that should be the final straw in any other CX pilots hopes that there can ever be a proper career or stable conditions to base your hopes and those of your families on. If she makes this move (and I suspect she will, as she is ignorant of 'unintended consequence'), then there is no longer any reason to stay. Take advantage of the best hiring market in generations. At the very least, escape from this most toxic of environments. And btw, if any of my former C and T colleagues continue with this charade and help train the very people who will be used to undermine their own careers, then deserve all the opprobrium that will come their way. There is no longer any excuse at that point.

[cxorcist]

There's no excuse now Traf. Who in their right mind would train their cheaper replacements day in, day out? Every C scale that is checked to the line is a nail in the coffin to B scale conditions.

I was saying this back when Traf was a trainer, and I say it to every C&Ter every chance I get. It’s beyond ludicrous. I want to train too but not until we are all on the same contract, and it sure as hell isnt going to be local terms.

[betpump5]

Some STCs are only too happy to tell you that they are making 300-400K a month due to rostered overtime.

[Trafalgar]

On a more positive note, several senior TCC members have refused to upgrade to STC while there is any CC underway. Further, a few of them I have spoken with have confirmed they will resign immediately if there is any entry of DEC in the company.

[DropKnee]

On a more positive note, several senior TCC members have refused to upgrade to STC while there is any CC underway. Further, a few of them I have spoken with have confirmed they will resign immediately if there is any entry of DEC in the company.

I hope that is true. I am doubtful of anything coming from the CX pilot crowd. If one pilot is allowed under this scheme into our cockpits. Than we have truly lost.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

I doubt it is true. Nothing happened when housing was about to be cancelled. Everyone will just sit on the sidelines waiting for something to happen/telling SOs to leave

[CyberT]

TurningFinal

You are of course wrong. Something did happen, that's why the ARAPA threat went away (for the time being). It's the threat that brings results. The threat was there, ask your training mates.

[corrigin]

Some STCs are only too happy to tell you that they are making 300-400K a month due to rostered overtime.

They may tell you.
.....Whether you believe it is a 'different story'.

Like most things at Cathay Pacific and the internet, until you do your own research and obtain proof, take it with 'a grain of salt'.

[reazasassain]

Any trainer who remains in training is a part of the problem. This is a voluntary position you are not required to stay in training. Anyone who does so is doing it for selfish reasons only. Trainers are profiting off of the membership and the training ban.

A trainer should be someone who is respected amongst the pilot body. Who upholds the values of the collective group. Wen your employer is continuously doing anything they can to destroy your benifits you should realize that you are in effect condoning this behavior. What makes you think you are so special? Will you be able to make a little side deal for yourself preserving your pay, housing, other benifits?.

Deplorable.

Lower than low is those guys taking up a training position on a base. You will never be invited out for dinner and drinks, you will not get anything other than required sop from me. Enjoy your layover.

[Trafalgar]

The funny (or not!) thing is, I remember Anna saying a year or so ago that she was looking to 'reward the trainers' for their efforts. All I see they received was NO 13th month, and a threat to their housing for them and their families. Come on guys/girls, where do your real interests lie, with your professional colleagues, or with a group of pilot hating managers who are actually attempting to harm you and your families? It's time to give up your delusions. If one SA pilot arrives on anything other than 'bottom of seniority list' terms IN HK, then you must resign. Otherwise, you are no better than the people upstairs who are harming the rest of us. You NEED to think about this, then act. Now.

[crwkunt roll]

On a more positive note, several senior TCC members have refused to upgrade to STC while there is any CC underway. Further, a few of them I have spoken with have confirmed they will resign immediately if there is any entry of DEC in the company.
Yes, "I'll quit if they touch the training pay, the housing allowance, etc etc etc......." How many have???

The funny (or not!) thing is, I remember Anna saying a year or so ago that she was looking to 'reward the trainers' for their efforts.
She did. She gave them that Instagram idiot to train and possibly get their faces out there.

[bm330]

Several have in fact refused. Unfortunately, currently there are four wannabe STCs upgrading by flying with Dragon trainers. I'll let you figure out the fleet by yourself.

CC/TB not far off at Dragon.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

name and shame, these people having been getting away with far too much. Im sure the union will be all over it.....

[Che Xindamail]

I took an interest in this thread after doing a recruitment sim-assessment on a CX S/O recently at my current company. Long story short, this individual’s performance in the sim was so poor that the assessment was cut short. I’m not sure if nerves played a part (probably) but the overall performance was below all my expectations of even modest handling skills.

Word of warning from the ‘real world’: Pilots that join an airline on an S/O deal where you don’t touch the controls for years will eventually become unemployable at any other airline. Beware of this career trap. Nothing will ever beat hands-on experience on smaller aircraft as you start off your career.

[cxorcist]

Sage advice. I think CX SOs get so enamored with the (not-so) shiny jets that they ignore the obvious downsides, this being but one example. Keep in mind, time to JFO just ballooned out to 5-6 years, and that’s no exaggeration. 5-6 years with no hands on time except for sims.

Compound that with the cost of living in HK and the fact that SO/JFOs scrape the bottom of the pay scales and HKPA for the better part of a decade, and the picture is pretty grim. I’m not the most empathetic of chaps, but I feel truly sorry for CX SOs. They have chosen to believe the lies from CX, and most are stuck paying the price for many years under the most venal, malicious, and incompetent airline management in the world. It’s truly a sad state of affairs at CX. The persistent pollution in Hong Kong is but a metaphor for a CX career.

[BCFPilot]

I've been following all the current CX topics and am amazed by the current situation (as employees experience it) at Cathay.
I've also been invited to HK for the assessment for SO.

Working at Cathay Pacific and living in HK has always seemed amazing to me and my goal in aviation is to fly long haul eventually.

Recently I've passed an assessment for a short haul jet carrier in Europe, incl type rating and benefits as insurance, housing allowance during training etc.

I'm now at an age of beginning 30's and have one year commercial experience on a turboprop, so about 800hr TT.
I live in Europe, so joining the short haul carrier in Europe will allow me to be back at home in 2 hours through their network with staff travel.

If I pass the assessment at CX, it's going to be a tough decision for me.

I can understand that (also due to my age) joining the short haul carrier and building jet hours as an FO would be a better career option.
I just can't stop thinking about flying long haul at Cathay, even though the transition to FO may be 5 - 6 years as my goal in aviation eventually is to fly long haul.

I would appreciate it if anybody could share some experience with me.

[Trafalgar]

You will sit as an SO for 5-6 years, logging NO time. You will have effectively crippled your career just when you had the chance to actually make yourself into an airline pilot. Further, you will be stuck living like a rat in a barely livable space (300 sq/ft) paying about $3000 usd /mo for that. Don't even get me started on the non-existent staff travel, appalling medical, joke of a retirement. Add to that the fact that you will work for the worst airline management in the industry, one that belittles you, lies to you, cheats you, steals from you and basically ensures that every day you are here you will regret. Other than that, come on in, the water's lovely! Take the job close to home, actually FLY airplanes and be grateful you dodged the bullet. (oh, and as for flying long-haul, that particular desire will be crushed out of you very quickly at CX, with the appalling rosters and minimum time layovers, crappy hotels and inadequate allowances. You will very quickly be too fatigued to care).

[enoughisenough_]

I've been following all the current CX topics and am amazed by the current situation (as employees experience it) at Cathay.
I've also been invited to HK for the assessment for SO.

Working at Cathay Pacific and living in HK has always seemed amazing to me and my goal in aviation is to fly long haul eventually.

Recently I've passed an assessment for a short haul jet carrier in Europe, incl type rating and benefits as insurance, housing allowance during training etc.

I'm now at an age of beginning 30's and have one year commercial experience on a turboprop, so about 800hr TT.
I live in Europe, so joining the short haul carrier in Europe will allow me to be back at home in 2 hours through their network with staff travel.

If I pass the assessment at CX, it's going to be a tough decision for me.

I can understand that (also due to my age) joining the short haul carrier and building jet hours as an FO would be a better career option.
I just can't stop thinking about flying long haul at Cathay, even though the transition to FO may be 5 - 6 years as my goal in aviation eventually is to fly long haul.

I would appreciate it if anybody could share some experience with me.

You are better off taking the jet job in Europe and build your experience. Then, if you so desire in a couple of years look at a DEFO position at a long haul carrier.
CX is not the place to be joining as an S/O right now.

[Fool Sufferer]

That’s most enlightening Trafalgar, if one was to believe your “prancing carrot”, with his assorted social media vanity and self-promotion, Cathay Pacific is nothing short of aviation Nirvana. Truly the number one employer of choice for any up and coming aspiring aviator (although apparently that particular individual’s second choice, as the number one was somewhat underwhelmed by his efforts in their selection process).

[cxorcist]

I've been following all the current CX topics and am amazed by the current situation (as employees experience it) at Cathay.
I've also been invited to HK for the assessment for SO.

Working at Cathay Pacific and living in HK has always seemed amazing to me and my goal in aviation is to fly long haul eventually.

Recently I've passed an assessment for a short haul jet carrier in Europe, incl type rating and benefits as insurance, housing allowance during training etc.

I'm now at an age of beginning 30's and have one year commercial experience on a turboprop, so about 800hr TT.
I live in Europe, so joining the short haul carrier in Europe will allow me to be back at home in 2 hours through their network with staff travel.

If I pass the assessment at CX, it's going to be a tough decision for me.

I can understand that (also due to my age) joining the short haul carrier and building jet hours as an FO would be a better career option.
I just can't stop thinking about flying long haul at Cathay, even though the transition to FO may be 5 - 6 years as my goal in aviation eventually is to fly long haul.

I would appreciate it if anybody could share some experience with me.

Please, please, please, for the love of God, stay in Europe and become a real airline pilot. CX will not only crush your career, but your soul as well. HK is not a great place to live as it used to be. Long haul flying is not really flying at all except for the taxi, takeoff, and landing. There are very few rewarding challenges, and the destinations aren’t worth the long hours droning at cruise. Trust me!!!

You will regret coming to CX, especially as an SO. Being an SO is an accountant’s version of a pilot with no purpose other than to warm a seat as cheaply as possible. Little will be expected of you, and you will get very little in return. The salary is a barely livable wage in HK. Don’t do the conversion, see the low tax rate and be fooled. You will be stuck in HK wondering how and why... And worst of all, you will have been warned and will hate yourself for not listening.

[Trafalgar]

The Prancing Carrot is no better than one of "Lenin's Useful Idiots" (look up the phrase). It quite disgusts me that there are people who would knowingly take part in the propaganda efforts of the same management that is actively attempting to cut THEIR pay and benefits. Defies belief. There is no fixing stupid that is that deep and that wide. :mad:

[OK4Wire]

my goal in aviation eventually is to fly long haul.

I can understand why you might have this goal: it certainly sounds exotic and enticing to one who has never done it.

Do you understand that your layover in that "exotic long haul location" is going to be about 24 hours long, in an airport hotel?

Given your age, there is a reasonable chance that ALL of your long-haul career will be as an FO, working on your body-clock night time.

[Samsonite]

Stay in your home country and be a real pilot! Our S/O's here now think that flying is just about managing and that you don't need flying skills anymore and that shows when they get into the right seat. If you like flying and want to be an actual pilot stay where you are and eventually you will end up flying long haul for a career airline.

[Trafalgar]

The SAA pilots are welcome, at the bottom of the seniority list, on the same terms and conditions as offered to every other recently hired SO. Otherwise, there will be a :mad: storm the likes of which this management could never realise in their worst nightmares. Try it....

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Traf are you not aware that it has already been confirmed they will be on the same conditions

[Farman Biplane]

I think this might be a smoke screen and the SAA contractors may end up in the CX Group at Air Hong Hong flying 747 and A300?

[TurningFinalRWY36]

I doubt it, CX is getting desperate for crew

[cxorcist]

The SAA pilots are welcome, at the bottom of the seniority list, on the same terms and conditions as offered to every other recently hired SO. Otherwise, there will be a :mad: storm the likes of which this management could never realise in their worst nightmares. Try it....

I believe they will. CX management are that obtuse, and they’ll probably put the Airbus guys on the A50 and promise them JNB layovers or some other backroom, secret handshake deal. Maybe they’ll allow them to reverse roster themselves through swaps.

Regardless, they’ll eventually betray the SAA guys too because that’s what CX does. They only see numbers, not people. Sure, they talk a good game because they know how it should be, but they just can’t help themselves. They’re like lumberjacks who cut down all the trees without replanting and then wonder what happened to the forest. Idiots!!!

[Trafalgar]

Traf are you not aware that it has already been confirmed they will be on the same conditions

Well, we'll see won't we. I hope that is the case, but i've been hearing from sources that there is a 'deal' in the works. A 20+ year history of seeing how duplicitous and dishonest our management are keeps me skeptical. :rolleyes:

[cxorcist]

Well, we'll see won't we. I hope that is the case, but i've been hearing from sources that there is a 'deal' in the works. A 20+ year history of seeing how duplicitous and dishonest our management are keeps me skeptical. :rolleyes:

The “deal” is in the form of a signing bonus. CX is going to use the money they saved by not paying the hard working captains 13th month just to add salt to the wound. Ironic, isn’t it? Use the captains’ money to screw over the SOs, after they take their own cut of course. Nice bunch heh?

[Trafalgar]

CX, I can't possibly see how they can pay a signing bonus. They were nearly out of business back in December, as it was only keeping the 13th month payment from the pilots that helped them keep the doors open into 2018. So no, I am sure the signing bonus isn't possible. After all, they still seem to think that they can suggest cutting housing and our provident fund, so of course they don't have the money to pay a signing bonus to new pilots. In fact, they are cutting our medical coverage, so no, they can't possibly have money available to pay signing bonuses. :rolleyes:

[BCFPilot]

You will sit as an SO for 5-6 years, logging NO time. You will have effectively crippled your career just when you had the chance to actually make yourself into an airline pilot. Further, you will be stuck living like a rat in a barely livable space (300 sq/ft) paying about $3000 usd /mo for that. Don't even get me started on the non-existent staff travel, appalling medical, joke of a retirement. Add to that the fact that you will work for the worst airline management in the industry, one that belittles you, lies to you, cheats you, steals from you and basically ensures that every day you are here you will regret. Other than that, come on in, the water's lovely! Take the job close to home, actually FLY airplanes and be grateful you dodged the bullet. (oh, and as for flying long-haul, that particular desire will be crushed out of you very quickly at CX, with the appalling rosters and minimum time layovers, crappy hotels and inadequate allowances. You will very quickly be too fatigued to care).
Thanks all for the feedback regarding my personal situation, I highly appreciate it.
It is still hard to believe and to imagine for such a world recognized airline, but perhaps I just don't want to see it.

As a current low timer (800 hr TT) flying long haul at Cathay seems like the ultimate dream come true, even if a transition takes 5 years to FO.

It's still going to be a tough decision for me, but again I appreciate all the feedback, advice and warnings.

Chances are now most likely I will pursue my job offer in Europe and fly short haul for the next years.
Perhaps, I can join another long haul airline as FO after those years.

[CX ex]

As a current low timer (800 hr TT) flying long haul at Cathay seems like the ultimate dream come true, even if a transition takes 5 years to FO


This attitude will destroy your career.

[CyberT]

There is absolutely no doubt, none, that like everyone else at this sh*thole the SAA imports will get screwed over, the baseball bat, the pineapple, the full works.

[BCFPilot]

So how does the life of a CX SO look like?
I'm curious to a typical working week/month, regarding for example roster, layover times, destinations, typical (****ty) hotels.

I would appreciate any feedback regarding this.

[Trafalgar]

Sometimes I despair (actually, most of the time...:ugh:). It's not about the rosters (crap), layover time (eat/sleep), destinations (doesn't matter when all you really see is your hotel bed), hotels (crap), etc. What REALLY matters is you will cripple your career (no flying for probably 6 years!), and live like a peasant in the worlds most expensive city. If that sounds good to you, welcome aboard. :ok:

[morningcoffee]

34 Yrs to command A380 at QF
31 Yrs to command 777 at Air NZ
32 Yrs to command 777 at BA

Since we’re all going on about cost of an apartment in Central in Hong Kong, why is it I can’t afford 500 sq/ft next to Hyde Park on my BA new joiner pay? What about new joiner pay at QF vs living smack beside the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

Just find it amusing that you pick the most expensive location to have to live in Hong Kong while it’s actually got f*cking expensive to live in the equivalent to Central anywhere else.

[cxorcist]

Is there a cheaper countryside somewhere near HK that I can live?

[BBN RADAR]

Haha, yeah, there’s always beautiful Yuen Long!

[Australopithecus]

34 years to command a QF A380? That's an interesting lie.

QF invented Jetstar which then took all expansion for 12 years, and their idealogical bent was to deny any QF pilots the opportunity to transfer for upgrades, etc.

Current projections, due to the missing cadre the lost decade caused and upcoming retirements are three years average S/O (with some pilots getting 737 F/O within a few weeks of joining).

A new joiner can probably expect 6 years as a 737 F/O before becoming a widebody F/O and then narrowbody command a few years later. 737 captains can educate their normally aspirated (no mask required) children and afford a 7000 sq ft joint within an hour of their base. Note that's seven thousand square feet.

Seniority is honoured, and change of fleets, even within rank, is not limited except voluntary downbidding is discretionary.

Sure it'll take longer for a widebody command...maybe 20 years give or take. That's the nature of legacy carriers with a large domestic network.

QF will probably be locked into a cyclical hiring pattern now that they have set the stage that way. My estimates are only true for people being hired in the next two years. Be guided accordingly:/

[morningcoffee]

The usual B/S.

20 yrs to a 380 command? Bumped into a 380 skipper in Melbourne airport, joined QF aged 23 got lhs 380 at 57. You do the maths. So I need to live an hour from the airport to get 7000 sq ft? Then we agree that we’re not living next to the Sydney Harbour Bridge. If you’re an hour away then you’re getting as far from the city as possible.

I don’t mind the grass is greener talk but can we at least keep it believable.

[mngmt mole]

MorningCoffee. Trust a Swire management lackey to dig himself a hole that deep. Why don't you hunker down in your cubicle and start designing flight attendants trousers? Either that or you can run and get Anna a cup of tea. :D

[Trafalgar]

MC, you and the rest of your Swire incompetents seem caught up in this 'wide body command' thing. Let me educate you a bit: the reality of the job (especially here at CX) is that working for this company is so miserable, it DOESN'T MATTER WHAT AIRCRAFT WE FLY. I would rather be a 787 Captain back in Europe being home at most nights, living in a nice home in the country, going to the pub on weekends and generally living a 'real' life (and seeing my wife happy and the kids not getting serious illnesses). Not scraping by here in HK, living in a shoebox, being abused by management every single week of the year and generally wasting away life trying to satisfy the likes of people like you. Needless to say, there is a MUCH better life to be had nearly anywhere else in this industry either than here. You and your like have destroyed the pilot profession in HK, and have managed to destroy the airline as well. :D

[Australopithecus]

The usual B/S.

20 yrs to a 380 command? Bumped into a 380 skipper in Melbourne airport, joined QF aged 23 got lhs 380 at 57. You do the maths. So I need to live an hour from the airport to get 7000 sq ft? Then we agree that we’re not living next to the Sydney Harbour Bridge. If you’re an hour away then you’re getting as far from the city as possible.

I don’t mind the grass is greener talk but can we at least keep it believable.

In my post widebody does not equal A380. QF also has A330, 787, 747. Qf only has about 120 A380 captains. About 6% of the list. Seniority is a pyramid scheme, that's why pilots need to join both young and early if their goal is to retire a 380 captain.

The Sydney Harbour Bridge is just about an hour away from the airport, but no, I live near one of the four other bases. Downtown living is great when you are young, but not optimum for child rearing.

I fly the 330. I am away from my home approximately 200 hours every month.

You?

[Trafalgar]

Australopithecus. Thanks for taking the time to counter the propaganda that our management are attempting to manipulate our younger pilots with. MorningCoffee being a serial offender. Happy flying, Traf.

[Dragon Pacific]

BA 320 command has been achieved recently in 18 months.
BA 380 23 years.
One hour drive from LHR puts you somewhere a bit more liveable than Yuen Long.

[Australopithecus]

Cheers Traf. The only difference between our two carriers is mine has to deal with slightly stronger laws and much stronger public opinion. Same stupid management tricks otherwise.

[cxorcist]

BA 320 command has been achieved recently in 18 months.
BA 380 23 years.
One hour drive from LHR puts you somewhere a bit more liveable than Yuen Long.

Hence, my point! Don’t forget that a CX widebody command pays captain 1 salary, which is barely more than an FO at the top of the pay scale makes. No big jump like at real airlines. CX basically pays narrow body pay for widebody command until at least captain year 8 or so. Of course, current CX upgrades are running at 11 years and climbing rapidly. Will be 13-14 years for 2008 hires.

[Australopithecus]

What does say a fourth yr Capt on a 330 make? At my carrier a 4th yr capt 737 80 hrs month makes about what he'd make on a 330, although flying many more sectors

[cxorcist]

What does say a fourth yr Capt on a 330 make? At my carrier a 4th yr capt 737 80 hrs month makes about what he'd make on a 330, although flying many more sectors

About 131k hkd (16800 usd) per month. Add 10% to that for a full 84 credit hours (70+ hours block time). Then add 15.5% for retirement.

Of course all this needs to be tempered by the cost of living in Hong Kong. That needs to be tempered by lower tax rate, potential for 13th month, and any housing and education allowances. Housing and education are astronomically priced.

[cxorcist]

The above is after 15 years in the Company, but that number is going up rapidly as I write.

[cxorcist]

Oh, I forgot to mention the air pollution in HK is awful and the Company healthcare plan is garbage. Sickness is rampant from the population density and pollution.

[Threethirty]

MorningCoffee, 32 years to command at BA is a total nonsense. I'm on the 777 at BA and command on type is about 20 years, yes still a long time but nothing like what you say. Command on an A320 probably 10 years.

[Captain Dart]

morningcoffee is drinking the morning KoolAid again.

[Loopdeloop]

The big difference is freedom of choice. Want an early command on an unpopular fleet or prefer to wait in the right seat on a LH fleet? In BA & QF you can do this. In CX there’s no such thing as choice. Join on the 747 & fly a freighter roster for the rest of your life. And bases are over so it’s HK for your whole career now. HK’s good fun but for a few years but a lifetime in a shoebox breathing noxious fumes just doesn’t compare to life and a job in the real world.

[Australopithecus]

About 131k hkd (16800 usd) per month. Add 10% to that for a full 84 credit hours (70+ hours block time). Then add 15.5% for retirement.

Of course all this needs to be tempered by the cost of living in Hong Kong. That needs to be tempered by lower tax rate, potential for 13th month, and any housing and education allowances. Housing and education are astronomically priced.

4th year captain 737 is $304 AUD/ hr. plus pension minus taxes plus expenses . Say after tax take home is only $200K. Breathable air, first rate education circa 10-15k/year. (You can pay double for the same results of course). Family medical costs 4,000/yr for excellent additional private coverage. Out of pocket expenses might be another 1,000 or so depending.

Housing is silly money in Syd and MEL, but not HK crazy. More western world average in PER, BNE or ADL.

We pay tax here...we mostly get good returns on that what with the pop density and clean air, water amd crops etc.

A 737 pilot makes a similar monthly pay to his or her contemporaries' on the 330 or 787.

There is no mandatory retirement age here...many pilots opt for a few years on the 737 after 65. 737 pilots get annual bonuses of perhaps an additional two-three weeks pay.

[cxorcist]

There is no doubt QF offers more and better career options than CX. Sure, you pay more tax, but that’s part of living in a civilized, 1st world country, which Hong Kong definitely is not. Hong Kong is more like 2nd world slipping backwards into the 3rd world that is mainland China.

At QF, you’ll also have a proper rostering system and the ability to bid between fleets, all based on seniority, not at Company whim born of spite and cost control.

In reality, one cannot really compare the two airlines because QF is a proper airline with a proper union and CX is a dinasour, nothing more than a relic of the past. CX doesn’t even hire real pilots anymore because so few are willing to come on the totally inadequate package, and we all know commuting at CX is completely impossible with unworkable rosters and ridiculous and expensive staff travel.

In short, CX has turned into the laughing stock of the industry. Any reputation to the contrary is just a blast from the past that in no way represents the current reality.

[BCFPilot]

There is no doubt QF offers more and better career options than CX. Sure, you pay more tax, but that’s part of living in a civilized, 1st world country, which Hong Kong definitely is not. Hong Kong is more like 2nd world slipping backwards into the 3rd world that is mainland China.

At QF, you’ll also have a proper rostering system and the ability to bid between fleets, all based on seniority, not at Company whim born of spite and cost control.

In reality, one cannot really compare the two airlines because QF is a proper airline with a proper union and CX is a dinasour, nothing more than a relic of the past. CX doesn’t even hire real pilots anymore because so few are willing to come on the totally inadequate package, and we all know commuting at CX is completely impossible with unworkable rosters and ridiculous and expensive staff travel.

In short, CX has turned into the laughing stock of the industry. Any reputation to the contrary is just a blast from the past that in no way represents the current reality.
Could you elaborate a bit on the staff travel?
I'm curious to why it is expensive and "non existent" according to previous posts.

I was under the impression that even family is allowed to travel to HK through staff travel.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

staff travel is considered a profit centre for the airline unfortunately, don't even get me started on how staff are treated whilst using it. Can be pretty hard to get a seat, especially when a lot of cabin crew commute from around the region.

[Trafalgar]

I commute to and from Europe. Have been here well over 20 years. A round trip in business costs almost $800 usd. By comparison, a colleague at Delta, pays approximately $50 for a comparable flight. It is a particular point of disgust that CX treats their own employees like a profit center. Recently, as yet a futher demonstration of contempt towards their aircrew, they decided to lower the cost of economy staff travel, but actually increase business class. The unsaid slap is that most of the cabin crew are from the region, hence they can travel in economy at a much lower rate. Most of the aircrew however are from Europe/AusNZ/NA, so therefore are more likely to need to travel in business. Just another cynical example of how the CX management continue to show every pilot in this airline how much they hold them in contempt. I might further add that for a junior aircrew member, not only is it cost prohibitive to get home, but the boarding priorities have been changed in the last year or two, enabling passengers to upgrade for a nominal fee, thereby blocking out seats that used to be available for staff. The irony in that is that the extra fee gained by the airline is often less than they would have obtained from the staff member with the high staff travel costs. Take less money, but :mad:off the aircrew. Only CX management could see that as a win.

[gulliBell]

And just getting back to the topic of "time to upgrade.."

Just stumbled on the bio of this pilot (S.B. scroll down a bit)

https://fighterpilot.com.au/our-pilots/

From SO to Captain at CX in 11 years.

[cxorcist]

And just getting back to the topic of "time to upgrade.."

Just stumbled on the bio of this pilot (S.B. scroll down a bit)

https://fighterpilot.com.au/our-pilots/

From SO to Captain at CX in 11 years.

That last of 11 year upgrades will occur this year. From here out, the time to command climbs hugely. 13-15 years in the next few years or so. After that, hard to say for certain, but I think well over 15 years, perhaps out to 20.

[Trafalgar]

You can be a captain at Delta in about 18 months. Many airlines it's 6 yrs or less. CX will almost certainly now be stretching out towards 15+. And a further bit of perspective, several Sr FO's with 11+ years and about to start their commands have recently resigned from CX to join the bottom of the seniority lists at other airlines. That should tell you all you need to know about the real situation at CX. :rolleyes:

[CISTRS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPYYkijuJMM

[Che Xindamail]

QR DEFO time to Command on either A320, A330 or B787 is 3 years from checked to line, almost to the day, provided you have reached 4000 hours total, of which 2000 on company aircraft. Pilot ranks increased by over 500 in the past year thanks to expansion. Another 60 A350s and 30 B787s on order, plus 40 B777X.

[BCFPilot]

I commute to and from Europe. Have been here well over 20 years. A round trip in business costs almost $800 usd. By comparison, a colleague at Delta, pays approximately $50 for a comparable flight. It is a particular point of disgust that CX treats their own employees like a profit center. Recently, as yet a futher demonstration of contempt towards their aircrew, they decided to lower the cost of economy staff travel, but actually increase business class. The unsaid slap is that most of the cabin crew are from the region, hence they can travel in economy at a much lower rate. Most of the aircrew however are from Europe/AusNZ/NA, so therefore are more likely to need to travel in business. Just another cynical example of how the CX management continue to show every pilot in this airline how much they hold them in contempt. I might further add that for a junior aircrew member, not only is it cost prohibitive to get home, but the boarding priorities have been changed in the last year or two, enabling passengers to upgrade for a nominal fee, thereby blocking out seats that used to be available for staff. The irony in that is that the extra fee gained by the airline is often less than they would have obtained from the staff member with the high staff travel costs. Take less money, but :mad:off the aircrew. Only CX management could see that as a win.
Hi Trafalgar, thanks for the information.
Do you mean that employees have to pay for staff travel at Cathay?
And how does this work for family who want to visit you in HK?

[cxorcist]

Hi Trafalgar, thanks for the information.
Do you mean that employees have to pay for staff travel at Cathay?
And how does this work for family who want to visit you in HK?

Yes, we pay... a lot; and no, it generally does not work for family visiting. Flights are very full, but CX still cannot make money (or so we are told). I guess that’s what happens when you lose billions (usd) on fuel hedges.

[BCFPilot]

Yes, we pay... a lot; and no, it generally does not work for family visiting. Flights are very full, but CX still cannot make money (or so we are told). I guess that’s what happens when you lose billions (usd) on fuel hedges.
Wow, didn't imagine that.
I was quite under the impression when I received the employee benefits, 13th month, travel benefits, children education allowance etc

"All employees may also nominate four member of their family (parents, siblings and, if married, parents-in-law) to enjoy these travel benefits. "

[Brokeidiot]

BCF yes you can nominate them. What people are trying to say is the odds of them or even you getting on the seat is not good at all you and you family will fall in order based on you date of joining which places ever person at Cathay and dragon ahead of you fighting for the very few available seats. If it’s a popular route it’s not uncommon to have 20+ people trying to get on. If by some stoke of luck you do get on it’s supposed to be 90% discounted but they take a theoretical most expensive ticket price that nobody ever pays basically 4x the price of anything you can get online as the base and then give you 90% on that. It’s about the equivalent of 60% discount. With load averages in the high +85% good luck.

[JPJP]

Sage advice. I think CX SOs get so enamored with the (not-so) shiny jets that they ignore the obvious downsides, this being but one example. Keep in mind, time to JFO just ballooned out to 5-6 years, and that’s no exaggeration. 5-6 years with no hands on time except for sims.

Compound that with the cost of living in HK and the fact that SO/JFOs scrape the bottom of the pay scales and HKPA for the better part of a decade, and the picture is pretty grim. I’m not the most empathetic of chaps, but I feel truly sorry for CX SOs. They have chosen to believe the lies from CX, and most are stuck paying the price for many years under the most venal, malicious, and incompetent airline management in the world. It’s truly a sad state of affairs at CX. The persistent pollution in Hong Kong is but a metaphor for a CX career.


I was blown away by the recent thread showing a release of new-build apartments in Hong Kong. I was curious, so looked at the square footage and calculated the exchange rate. The largest ones in the current tranche were 2 bedrooms the size of a one bedroom (in most cities ~ 1100sq ft.) - 2.5 Million US Dollars. WTF ?

How does any SO or FO expect to ever own a decent home ? These were normal/nice apartments with a view - Not palaces. I find it remarkable that CX is able to hire anyone, unless they’re trying to escape a third world country, or rotting in Islamabad. Or both :E

[Trafalgar]

You just answered your own question. Nobody joining now has a hope of EVER owning their own home in HK. You will be at the mercy of ruthless HK landlords for your entire 'career'. That is why the only people CX can hire are 20yr old 'wannabes' who have no other commitments (and when they want to settle down, get married etc, they leave as well). Anyone who has any idea of a proper life quickly realises that living in HK and working for CX is impossible. The only people showing up here (fewer and fewer each month) are those naive enough to be fooled by the manipulative CX hiring process. A rude awakening awaits those that fall for it.

[Hiro Nakimura]

So I'm confused - two months ago DFO says on Slido that the majority of the 2019 and 2020 FO requirements will be filled by DEFOs.

Then a couple of days ago GMT writes a 'please don't leave' letter to all the SOs - in it he says that the Training Ban will be mitigated and the majority of the FO slots will be from SOs.

So - why negotiate at all? If TCC's son thinks that the TB can be 'mitigated' then there is no need to remove the TB.

Or maybe the left hand(DFO) doesn't know what the right hand (GMT) is writing?

[backtothegrindstone]

Good old PC.....he is a absolute :mad: . The big GMT oooooooo his daddy prob got him there. But lets not chat about that person. the "GMT" has absolutely no say in anything. He probably does not even know what he wrote on that email. All I know is that there are more resignations on the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Warning to the BIG FISH in a small pond. Your SO's are going to resign faster than you think if you dont make a plan and upgrade them..... tick tock AT/RH/PC.

AT congrats on running this airline into the ground. Spoke to a "DEFO" candidate and he said you cant pay him enough to work for this :mad: show, ha ha ha its so funny. This LCC know as CX is the worst, and I mean the worst company I have ever worked for. ANY person considering this airline DONT!!!! Unless you a insta celeb :ugh:

I would NEVER recommend this place to anyone....when I leave. YES another SO gone.
Thank goodness i kept my wife with certain people snooping around.