View Full Version : HNA financial woes?
ekpilot
3rd Jan 2018, 22:24
This has been kept quiet here. Lease payments not being met and aircraft deliveries delayed? Anyone at any of the HNA group companies have any info? I was hoping to escape east this year.
https://www.ft.com/content/aae77042-dbd7-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482
InnocentBystander
4th Jan 2018, 01:38
Looks like they've gotten a little ahead of themselves with the debt load financing the expansion, especially with the non-aviation related acquisitions. They're now trying to fix that. It doesn't appear to affect operations at the various group airlines though.
I would be more worried though about the fact that your employer now refuses to issue the required license verification paperwork to join any Chinese carrier. Makes it pretty much impossible for EK pilots seeking employment here...
ekpilot
4th Jan 2018, 06:10
Thanks for the reply. I've not got that far yet with respect to licence verifications, but surely that's an authority thing and not a company one? The GCAA should act according to ICAO requirements and issue verification to any other ICAO authority. I'm hoping so at least! Do the respective agencies help with this at all?
ThunderLizard
4th Jan 2018, 06:19
"...employer now refuses to issue the required license verification paperwork to join any Chinese carrier. Makes it pretty much impossible for EK pilots seeking employment here"
Can you elaborate on this? Is EK refusing to provide some sort of verification of the GCAA license for pilots leaving for jobs in China? If so, is there some mechanism for the Chinese to verify it in an alternative way?
Livinthedream320
4th Jan 2018, 09:02
So didn't HNA group recently take over JetGo in Australia ?
Capt. Flamingo
4th Jan 2018, 10:42
Regarding the license verification by GCAA, is there anyway of doing it before resigning EK? Or is that an authority to authority thing? Sorry for the drift.
PoppaJo
4th Jan 2018, 11:04
So didn't HNA group recently take over JetGo in Australia ?
They bought Aerocare (ground handler).
Not sure why they would buy JetGo considering the relationship they now have with Virgin.
ekpilot
4th Jan 2018, 18:42
Regarding the license verification by GCAA, is there anyway of doing it before resigning EK? Or is that an authority to authority thing? Sorry for the drift.
You should be able to do it via any other authority at any time. It should have nothing to do with EK. For example, you may, for whatever reason, want another country's ATPL and they will want to verify your current GCAA licence. It may have nothing to do with getting a new job at that time. The UK CAA have a form that asks your permission for either another authority OR company to verify your licence.
From my experience you need a licence verification from your regulator AND you need a letter from your company stating "no accidents/incidents", "no security breaches", and is generally a good employee, etc.
From the ex-Emirates guys I know it is the later that is becoming the issue.
InnocentBystander
5th Jan 2018, 06:44
Regarding the license verification by GCAA, is there anyway of doing it before resigning EK? Or is that an authority to authority thing? Sorry for the drift.
The CAAC requires a license verification with the GCAA. Getting the GCAA verification is usually not a problem, however they have been slow walking these in the past resulting in several months delay.
BUT you also need two letters from your employer; one is a so called "No Accidents/Incidents" letter (Which the CAAC recently changed into a "Rewards or Punishments records" letter), the other is a detailed flight time verification.
EK Fleet knows that the CAAC requires an exact wording on these letters and thus refuses to issue those letters; instead they offer you a boilerplate "Confirmation of employment" and basic flight time certificate fully knowing that this is not sufficient for the CAAC.
In the past there were a few good Samaritans at EK that had access to both the gold embossed EK letterhead and stamps and also the balls to issue these letters in clear defiance of the official position. My understanding is that these people have now either resigned or are no longer issuing these letters.
The Agency can't really help you with that as these Documents have to be issued by EK. Having them issued in advance might work, but AFAIK no one at EK issues these anymore.
I know of at least one former colleague who had already resigned from EK with an offer from a Chinese carrier and was unable to obtain these letters from Fleet resulting of him being without a job... He eventually got a DEC position with another (non-chinese) airline for vastly inferior T&C's.
Unless you have the exact wording required in your letter you will not be able to pass the license verification/Background check, no matter what some Agencies are telling you.
Some are recommending EK pilots to go to an Airline like Korean or Ethiopian for a year first as those accept a plain vanilla GCAA license verification and after some time there then will issue the paperwork needed for the CAAC upon resignation.
EK management knows how attractive the packages at either Hainan or CSA are for EK expats looking to move home and they do everything they can to keep you in their little prison.
Capt. Flamingo
5th Jan 2018, 09:01
Thanks a lot guys, very messy indeed!
Commuting Pilot
15th Jan 2018, 21:28
There's really very little being said about this anywhere. One of the biggest groups has now had its shares suspended and sold the majority of its stake in HKA. Has anyone got any inside info?
Icelanta
16th Jan 2018, 08:32
Heard that they want to close down MyCargo (ACT) too or at least sell their shares.
Xi Ping
16th Jan 2018, 08:48
Many of the HNA group pilots have salary delay as the bank is not paying agency .
Local pilots also salary delays, very worrying times.
HNA group airlines can not afford to repair aircraft so many AOG and refueller company has refused to provide as bills not paid
act700
17th Jan 2018, 00:39
Reuters article
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hna-group-debt/hnas-problems-mount-as-airlines-delay-payments-bank-sets-up-team-to-handle-debt-sources-idUSKBN1F40M5
volare_737
17th Jan 2018, 01:39
Wonder how that all will affect the Hong Kong Airlines such as HKA and HKE ?
Reading the news, especially from the last days, the whole HNA group could implode any time. 7 parts of HNA, incl Hainan Airlines stopped trading on the stock exchange. It’s all build on dept fueled aquisations to an incredible extend.
Anyone from inside who can comment please? Salaries still paid etc....
POWDERFINGER
29th Jan 2018, 01:07
Reading the news, especially from the last days, the whole HNA group could implode any time. 7 parts of HNA, incl Hainan Airlines stopped trading on the stock exchange. It’s all build on dept fueled aquisations to an incredible extend.
Anyone from inside who can comment please? Salaries still paid etc....
That's unfortunate. HNA is one of those few companies in China that are managed more like a business than a mafia. Still, there's enough opacity that rot isn't found and removed before it harms stakeholders.
The problem is decisions are made and money moves in the interests of fat cats and their friends, not for expertly calculated benefit of the company.
That hurts the careers of pilots, as they need a fiscally healthy company.
When you look at the cash value of a business, then the intrinsic value of this particular asset of the HNA group is not defined, as the whole organization originates from gangsters all across China who merged in creating this multi airline organization.
Haikou in the Hainan Island where they originate is only a good exmaple of their monopoly from the justice department to any other angle that could invigilate the way The Hainan Group operates. There is however the monitoring of international news and faulty behavior by Main land China, P.R.C overseeing the general conduct of business overseas for which they now have to explain how these investments in Europe and elsewhere were justifiable for the expansion of Chinese business as the HNA group is a privately own company with little dependence on governmental control, which makes it more vulnerable to audit.
Not only banks but also other institutions who have helped financially with the expansion of this monster operation have declined more involvement, but now the lawsuits filed in different venues from Hong Kong to Europe by former HNA employees at a corporate level makes of this possible defunct operation a can of worms similar to what transpired in Japan with Olympus.
Although well known for payin goerhaos the highest salaries in the industry to airline pilots, their local instructors do not speak English at the required level 4, and most assisted training is given with an interpreter, for which the Chinese Civil Aviation Authority is mostly responsible in granting licenses to a level these Chinese pilots are not. The proof is in the pudding, these pilots require a foreign experience pilot at the helm when operating international routes, with the exception of airlines in Hong Kong, the rest of China, P.R.C is a playground of wanna be speaking English pilots and controllers making of air safety a big concern.
XanaduX
16th Feb 2018, 17:45
Wonder how that all will affect the Hong Kong Airlines such as HKA and HKE ?
Can anyone answer this?
newscaster
18th Nov 2018, 13:00
Heard that they want to close down MyCargo (ACT) too or at least sell their shares.
Said to have swapped shares in MyCargo for more of MyTechnic in summer 2017 https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1397715 the guy who posted is well versed in Turkish aviation scene.
One aircraft repainted in new ACT livery few months back http://www.actairlines.com/photos/0ac01.jpg as can be seen from link webpage is also back to actairlines.com from mycargo.aero.